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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 8, 2016 0:14:01 GMT -8
because changing the game midway would break savegames to all hell? probably not the real reason but it'll do for me. You really think anyone who loves this series will care about that? You really think reloading or going through it one more time will be an issue for a fan of the series if it means new, worthwhile content? Especially for those who enjoy the gameplay, story and characters? Hell, there were tons of people on the Steam forums (myself included) who had to contend with how a late-game update to MoA's gameplay interface (the addition of icons to damage-values in battle and balancing and so forth) bricked all our saves, but it didn't matter because we actually LIKED the game so it was worth it to play through it again and experience the improved gameplay mechanics in conjunction with the story. What you're saying here... that's not a limitation - that's something that pretty much all game-makers deal with for DLC, and something all players have to deal with when weighing if its worth going back and re-dong. I don't think that even qualifies as a real reason, let alone anything that would stop anyone. If you add the extra content, they're not going to mind re-doing the game - especially if it makes the whole experience going forward better for them. In fact, I don't remember this being an issue even in LibDay when some early-access people had to play through the whole game just to get to the 2.0 content, or some newtime purchasers played through the whole game to get to [RE]Turn.
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Post by vaendryl on Jul 8, 2016 1:40:28 GMT -8
well, like I said that's not really the reason, but I'd say it's one of them. the real reason of course being "Sam doesn't want to", which is also fine with me personally. but then again, I don't have nearly as many misgivings with libday as you do. I still believe there wouldn't be nearly that much vitriol if all three parts were just released at once in one big whole instead of splitting it up and confusing everybody and giving rise to false expectations, but it's too late for that. and part of this is my fault too, because where the VN parts are easily merged it's the combat that really can't be (easily).
My hope is that we can put enough effort and cool stuff into any eventual sequel to make up for it, and not have to break it into pieces again.
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Post by Nemjen on Jul 8, 2016 4:25:41 GMT -8
The way I have started looking at these alternative timeline games is that while the content may not be canon the themes can be, for example you get a more complete view of how Kayto behaves after viewing him in the third person. I think it is almost certain that the: device used by Claude in this DLC will be the same as the one in the main arc when it comes to the next Sunrider game. The only exception will be that Kayto will not have access to one directly like he does in the Claude route (unless that ending was actually meant to foreshadow something). All due respect, but I don't see how that counters the fact that Claude rather pointedly told Alpha that she actually, physically endured explosive decompression of her Ryder - even going as far as to say it was bad for her skin. Surviving something like that rather definitively hints to a time-travel device most certainly not being her only trick - let's say for argument's sake she's not actually a God; if so, we're talking major cybernetic, nanotech or genetic enhancement to be able to survive something like that. And that's not even counting the knowledge she apparently has and how far-reaching it goes - there's a difference between hiding your intelligence and outright not being human. At the same time though... in the end, it's *still* pretty much semantical at this point - artificially-made or not, Claude's still a God/Deity by no stretch of the term. Additionally... I know it's mean, but that might actually be worse that people have to go through the toil and heartache of investing in a non-cannon entry just to learn themes that are apparently crucial to the main story yet weren't in said main story. Especially given what is STILL being complained about as a lackluster main story. I would not put it past Claude to just be overly dramatic considering she could be operating said device as her Ryder was decompressing meaning that yes she was technically living through it. As shown in Return most of the tricks she used such as multiplication of her Ryder and preventing the universe from ending that particular timeline seem to come from the use of her device to a degree that she is not just traveling through time but actively manipulating it. Claude is still limited by the lore of the universe as she does not want to actively interfere with timelines more than she has to, this shows that she has and knows her own limits. For me that would lead me to think that her power comes from knowledge (a branch of which being technology) and that the extent of it is perceived as 'godly' to third parties. It would be like going back in time myself a couple of hundred years with technology that did not exist yet and allowed me to do action beyond the capabilities of that timeline, either I would be perceived as other worldly, very intelligent or god like. As I have expressed previously I don't necessarily agree with your opinions and this is another example of it where you are viewing the world in just black and white. REturn can be enjoyed on its own as a stand alone piece which was the goal, but there are elements between the lines that can be said to add more context (rewarding players who draw the links and think about the themes). Both ways of reading the events are generally equally enjoyable as they cater towards different audiences. Foreshadowing is generally there to make you think of what is to come, if you pick up on it and it happens you feel good for putting the pieces together however when the foreshadowed event happens and if you didn't see it coming then it is still a win as it will create impact. The only danger is where something happens that the main game doesnt at least try to explain, this would be a negative use of foreshadowing as it penalises players for not doing additional research, something that Sunrider is still generally safe from for now as it is ongoing. Sunrider Academy was not canon meaning it could be played by new players to the series and veterans alike but if you read in between the lines there is foreshadowing of Liberation Day meaning that it is not like the author has not done this before. I think Liberation Day would have gone down better if we also had access to the next part to see how it concludes and how the events of this main game affected the end point, but as we are not there yet there is still a lot open to interpretation which is why I talk in mostly theories.
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Post by Dextix on Jul 8, 2016 8:07:04 GMT -8
well, like I said that's not really the reason, but I'd say it's one of them. the real reason of course being "Sam doesn't want to", which is also fine with me personally. but then again, I don't have nearly as many misgivings with libday as you do. I still believe there wouldn't be nearly that much vitriol if all three parts were just released at once in one big whole instead of splitting it up and confusing everybody and giving rise to false expectations, but it's too late for that. and part of this is my fault too, because where the VN parts are easily merged it's the combat that really can't be (easily). My hope is that we can put enough effort and cool stuff into any eventual sequel to make up for it, and not have to break it into pieces again. I simply have to disagree with this. If all three parts would have been released at the same time, you would see even more vitriol. The first and second game also had story issues, fast pacing and not enough meaningful exposition hindered them. But they were being looed at with positivity, because many people believed that since these games are free and they are the first games of the series, it can be given benefit of the doubt. The third game however dashed that all out with even worse pacing issues, with even less meaningfull exposition and with a far worse story. Hell, if the first two games, you could actually see Exposition -> Rising action -> Climax. In the third one, rising action was almost nonexistant, thats without even talking about exposition. This the climax simply felt shitty, since there was no build up to it. Thus all the goodwill earned was wasted. If you had all these three games in the current states together, it simpl would not have worked, as the procut would have had big problems and not so good reception. And a story that gets worse as it progresses, is definetly not a good thing for a game.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 8, 2016 11:07:24 GMT -8
well, like I said that's not really the reason, but I'd say it's one of them. the real reason of course being "Sam doesn't want to", which is also fine with me personally. but then again, I don't have nearly as many misgivings with libday as you do. I still believe there wouldn't be nearly that much vitriol if all three parts were just released at once in one big whole instead of splitting it up and confusing everybody and giving rise to false expectations, but it's too late for that. and part of this is my fault too, because where the VN parts are easily merged it's the combat that really can't be (easily). My hope is that we can put enough effort and cool stuff into any eventual sequel to make up for it, and not have to break it into pieces again. But again, I think that's rather soundly disproven by how people who had the game still went through the hassle of playing it again when their MoA saves were bricked by your UI update, or when they feared their LibDay saves would be bricked by the V2.00 update - because, again, they loved the game and series. Ergo, this is *not* something to use as a reason/excuse, and if even you knew that then why would you say it instead of just saying from the start "Sam doesn't want to"? Besides... how the hell does that gel with all the time and effort he put into [RE]Turn? You're honestly telling me that going back and putting in a mid-game route that explored the same things [RE]Turn did (only in a more consistent present-tense way) would have been any harder or easier then making an entirely new spin-off? And it's not just me who had misgivings with LibDay - and it's not even the combat that there were misgivings for; it was the story. If all three parts were released together, there'd actually probably be a worse response because you have all the parts strung together with a good start and middle and a badly-done finish. And any sequel you do, it's gonna have to be chained down by the need to address anything you didn't fix in LibDay instead of being able to actually move on and even do any of that "cool stuff" you're talking about in the first place.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 8, 2016 11:26:32 GMT -8
All due respect, but I don't see how that counters the fact that Claude rather pointedly told Alpha that she actually, physically endured explosive decompression of her Ryder - even going as far as to say it was bad for her skin. Surviving something like that rather definitively hints to a time-travel device most certainly not being her only trick - let's say for argument's sake she's not actually a God; if so, we're talking major cybernetic, nanotech or genetic enhancement to be able to survive something like that. And that's not even counting the knowledge she apparently has and how far-reaching it goes - there's a difference between hiding your intelligence and outright not being human. At the same time though... in the end, it's *still* pretty much semantical at this point - artificially-made or not, Claude's still a God/Deity by no stretch of the term. Additionally... I know it's mean, but that might actually be worse that people have to go through the toil and heartache of investing in a non-cannon entry just to learn themes that are apparently crucial to the main story yet weren't in said main story. Especially given what is STILL being complained about as a lackluster main story. I would not put it past Claude to just be overly dramatic considering she could be operating said device as her Ryder was decompressing meaning that yes she was technically living through it. As shown in Return most of the tricks she used such as multiplication of her Ryder and preventing the universe from ending that particular timeline seem to come from the use of her device to a degree that she is not just traveling through time but actively manipulating it. Claude is still limited by the lore of the universe as she does not want to actively interfere with timelines more than she has to, this shows that she has and knows her own limits. For me that would lead me to think that her power comes from knowledge (a branch of which being technology) and that the extent of it is perceived as 'godly' to third parties. It would be like going back in time myself a couple of hundred years with technology that did not exist yet and allowed me to do action beyond the capabilities of that timeline, either I would be perceived as other worldly, very intelligent or god like. As I have expressed previously I don't necessarily agree with your opinions and this is another example of it where you are viewing the world in just black and white. REturn can be enjoyed on its own as a stand alone piece which was the goal, but there are elements between the lines that can be said to add more context (rewarding players who draw the links and think about the themes). Both ways of reading the events are generally equally enjoyable as they cater towards different audiences. Foreshadowing is generally there to make you think of what is to come, if you pick up on it and it happens you feel good for putting the pieces together however when the foreshadowed event happens and if you didn't see it coming then it is still a win as it will create impact. The only danger is where something happens that the main game doesnt at least try to explain, this would be a negative use of foreshadowing as it penalises players for not doing additional research, something that Sunrider is still generally safe from for now as it is ongoing. Sunrider Academy was not canon meaning it could be played by new players to the series and veterans alike but if you read in between the lines there is foreshadowing of Liberation Day meaning that it is not like the author has not done this before. I think Liberation Day would have gone down better if we also had access to the next part to see how it concludes and how the events of this main game affected the end point, but as we are not there yet there is still a lot open to interpretation which is why I talk in mostly theories. [RE]Turn kinda blows that out of the water, though, since Claude in her end even confirmed to Kayto that explosive decompression was "old hat" to her. Plus, what reason does she have to lie about that? Plus, you're discounting the fact that Claude's not omnipotent - she was clearly shocked by being caught off-guard by Alice. By all accounts, the whole reason she was mad with Alpha is because she DIDN'T have time for such a thing and it got her spaced - which she brushed off as simply being annoying. Absolutely none of the "tricks" you're talking about are anything she couldn't do just by opening a looping portal or signaling herself in different time periods or the like - not something you can really do when you're caught off-guard. And her willingness to excuse the event by later telling Kayto she had Ryuvian teleport tech seems to discount your claim of "the lore of the universe" limiting her in any way - it really does not look like she expected that to happen. Again though, I don't see how that changes one single thing - because the hows are just semantics; she is STILL a God based on what she can do, regardless of the hows and whys of what makes her actually able to do it. If you can rewrite time itself like that, that's being a God - doesn't matter who you compare yourself to or what "oh, compared to lesser races" argument you make; she still equates to being like a God in power and knowledge alone (and quite possibly physicality). But again, it's precisely because "can be enjoyed on its own as a stand alone piece" that makes it a PROBLEM when trying to say it fixes LibDay's issues - it doesn't. Because, again, like *you* just said, it's a STAND ALONE PIECE. A spin-off. It doesn't actually address any of the issues in LibDay's story - it just recounts them over again from hindsight. Doesn't matter how much you read between the lines - it's still not cannon to the main series. If all that effort had gone into adding these contexts into the main game itself, there wouldn't have been any issues. This isn't an example of foreshadowing, Magpie - it's more like someone trying to make a case about why they think their game works the way they did it and this is an "extra lecture" for those that don't think so. THAT honestly feels like the format [RE]Turn was released in. The whole point is that the main game DOESN'T explain any of this - the SPIN OFF tries to, and in turn can make it more frustrating that nothing in said spin-off has any impact on the main game. But, again, there were parts of it that WERE cannon - Sola's acknowledgement of the timeline of the Academy Sola's route points to that much, and a lot of the themes there remained consistent with cannon (Ava's stern father, Chigara being a replica of Alice, Sola being temporally displaced instead of just in stasis, ect). And in those, the personalities of their characters and the stories they were in were paced far better then in LibDay did. The fact of the matter is that I don't believe that in the slightest - if LibDay were part of a larger story, you STILL would have gotten complaints about the Chigara romance and the shortness of it because it's simply too much trying to be crammed into far too little; it would be like if we'd jumped from Versta right into Far Port back in First Arrival. Making it part of a larger game would have only HIGHLIGHTED that deficiency.
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Post by longtimelurker on Jul 10, 2016 23:25:08 GMT -8
REturn is non-canon only in that as far as any future titles in the series are concerned none of the events in REturn happened. It is however canon as far as lore is concerned and any character backgrounds and/or motivations revealed still apply to the main series. In this sense it is more canon than Sunrider Academy, which truly is a separate (but still connected because lolforeshadowing) universe. I believe Claude knows the events in REturn are ultimately pointless, as even changing the past will only produce a new (non-canon!) universe but she does what she does anyway for her own reasons. be they simply amusement or actually just wanting Shields to have things go his way for once and have a potential happy ending. Tossing people around across various timelines just may be a way for a godlike being to 'get to know them better', like anyone else would invite someone to hang out. How can we tell how one so powerful would think?
I think it's very possible that in any future titles that continue on from where LibDay ended Claude does in fact know all that happened in REturn but it doesn't really affect anything that'll be going on around them, so it ends up being moot anyway. Oh hmmm forgive my ignorance if I am wrong but... I thought that they were destroying the original timeline in which the massacre happened and replacing it with the new one generated after the paradox happens? At least that's the impression that I got from the dialogues between Claude and Kayto when they talk about the consequences of their actions (destroy everything and replace it all anew with copies of themselves that somehow still retain some of their memories). I mean, there would be no point in living in those normal/bad end timelines if Kayto could just bail himself/Claude bail him out to his original universe if it was still there right? I guess that since the Kayto living in those remembers what he did for things to get to that point it's the one that came from the future.
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Post by vaendryl on Jul 11, 2016 3:57:23 GMT -8
Oh hmmm forgive my ignorance if I am wrong but... I thought that they were destroying the original timeline in which the massacre happened and replacing it with the new one generated after the paradox happens? At least that's the impression that I got from the dialogues between Claude and Kayto when they talk about the consequences of their actions (destroy everything and replace it all anew with copies of themselves that somehow still retain some of their memories). I mean, there would be no point in living in those normal/bad end timelines if Kayto could just bail himself/Claude bail him out to his original universe if it was still there right? I guess that since the Kayto living in those remembers what he did for things to get to that point it's the one that came from the future.
As I see it there's two main options: either what you say is true and the ending where the massacre takes place anyway is the 'true' ending, or the mere act of Claude going back to the past (dragging Shields with her) creates (or finds) a new timeline anyway making it meaningless either way.
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Post by longtimelurker on Jul 11, 2016 21:33:43 GMT -8
As I see it there's two main options: either what you say is true and the ending where the massacre takes place anyway is the 'true' ending, or the mere act of Claude going back to the past (dragging Shields with her) creates (or finds) a new timeline anyway making it meaningless either way. There might be another option, which I think is the "true" one: Claude simply never took Kayto back to the past in the "true" timeline where the main series take place, [Re]turn is non-canon after all. You can dismiss the whole thing right from the premise!
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Post by Dextix on Jul 11, 2016 23:28:12 GMT -8
I mean, thats about right. Return is non-canon, as such it has no meaning to the canon universe.
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