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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 3, 2016 22:08:24 GMT -8
But those are entirely different contexts. Speaking of 7th episodes, let's look at Star Wars: The Force Awakens as an example. It's an entirely new time period and storyline with a brand new cast of leading characters - it's basically FIRST FILM of a new series, where said new cast must first be introduced before being properly established. Also, Episode 7 introduced it's characters as having some form of fame or infamy in their setting that we see - that they were known in the wider universe as threatening people. We hear about characters like Snoke before we actually see them, even if just in passing mention, so that there is some form of build-up or expectation present for this new face; thats a good way to build up the big bad of a new storyline. By sharp contrast, Kuushana is a character who is introduced several entries into the current storyline as someone who's apparently as famous as Arcadius herself... yet we've never heard anything about her. Not so much as a single peep. And yet she's pretty much becoming the new big bad out of nowhere. This is a pattern that's arguably very detrimental to games. Also, I think a boss is the worst way to describe it - Kuushana is an antagonist, which is not necessarily the same thing as a boss; Cullen proved that since he was a recurring villain in FA but not an actual unit we had to fight. See, your claim only works as far as battlefield nobodies go - however, random small-time bosses or lieutenants are one thing, while faction leaders, especially ones who you're giving some kind of legend-enshrined backstory as this "Kuushana of the Many Miracles" does, are another story entirely. With Cullen and Fontana, they were readily established well before their respective confrontations, their characters showing the core of who they were even before we had their full backstories such as in Fontana's case (his wasn't revealed till MoA). Even Crow Harbor is being foreshadowed and built up better because we were alluded to him from the very start as a historical figure. With Kuushana... nothing. Unless you've read the patreon novel, which isn't even complete by the way, you're not going to know anything about her. It's pretty much the same as saying you were expected to have read Veniczar by this point (and even if that's not the intent, that's still how it feels) instead of being able to connect with this character from an in-game perspective. Stuff like this all comes down to execution and how you build off of it - and for the role of a long-term antagonist like what Kuushana seems to be pushing for, it wasn't done well enough to make her appearance feel like much else but an asspull. Edit: Ugh, again with this? This is not some college-debate forum - what does the language have to do with the topic? Dropping a topic over that of all things is ABSURD - it's whether or not the person doesn't stoop to personal attacks or the like (calling someone a dumbass over differing views or the like) that tend to make people drop a topic. Then in what scenario could we have safely introduced Kuushana? Considered how she was imprisoned throughout most of the game. And most of the story is told from Shield's point of view with only tidbits from the other side. What would be a good scenario to ease her introduction. I believe this is the first time I have brought this up but indeed, language is everything in a conversation. The moment one stoops to using obscene language is the moment when they stop respecting the other individual's input into the conversation. I ask for the same amount of civility as I give out and thus I will not respond if treated as such. Call me old fashioned if you wish, I come from an environment where censorship is everywhere mind you and I do not particularly wish to indulge my free speech in uncivilized conversations. Well, personally speaking, I'd have there be some allusions for her beforehand during interactions with Fontana. For example; - #1st: During the meetings between Gray and Fontana, Gray could ask exactly who it is Fontana intends to place in his new, redesigned PACT government, to which he references that there were "many people - some of great virtue - who would return to PACT's cause" now that Alice is ousted, explaining that there's no longer any threat of those who speak up against Alice being executed or exiled by Alice as they were during the start of her regime. This sets up that PACT had good people exiled who might return at some point now that Alice is gone and that, when they do, it'll be into a position of power (it could also set up the Denari character Samu mentioned they wanted to include in V2.00, who is probably another exile returned the same as Kuushana). - #2nd: A cutaway at one point or another where Fontana is shown contacting "someone" and saying that "your exile has come to an end", touching on how the war and division between PACT has stretched their forces thin and they need "a miracle to recover... or close enough, as it were". (as you said, "most" of Sunrider takes place from Kayto's viewpoint, but not all of it - there've been scenes showing moments between the other crew or between the PACT characters in every game). This sets up that someone who was once exiled from PACT is now returning. - #3nd: At point during a briefing for a difficult battle or during a bad situation in battle (like say, when Alice takes over the PACT fleet at Cera, or when facing the Nightmare Ascendent), Fontana could remark he knows "one person" who certainly could have turned their near-hopeless situation around - and if you want some humor in there, have Kayto think Fontana's talking about either himself or Kayto only to have Fontana give a deadpan reply that it's neither - remarking that "sadly, she's nowhere near here." This sets up that Fontana knows someone who he actually considers a better strategist and "miracle-worker" then himself or Kayto and identifies them as a "she" (as well as setting Kayto up as someone who could rival her as he does in fact manage to pull off a victory out of said situation when Fontana had doubted it possible for anyone else but Kuushana to do). All the above wouldn't require/have required all that much effort to include into the game, and would foreshadow the return of someone who has a degree of reverence in PACT the way Kuushana apparently seems to. If introducing a bunch of new characters is going to become a thing in the latter games, best to do so in a way that makes them not feel like asspulls or fanservice or the like. Also... what are you talking about? Last I checked, Fontana said Kuushana was EXILED, not imprisoned(?). As for the matter of language... no surprise, but I really disagree. If anything, I think it matters very little - I think it's more the point the argument's making that is "everything". Maybe I'm just more used to frank discussion, but I think obscene language really shouldn't be a factor of judgement - what matters is weather or not their beliefs have any truth behind them. Hell, I actually think that's a very shallow way to judge an argument - it's like saying you care more about how they say it then whether or not what they're saying is right or not - and I think asking, if not demanding, others censor their own language just to talk with you is no different then you forcing them through your own circumstances.
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Post by Dextix on Jun 3, 2016 22:22:55 GMT -8
I will join the conversation if you do not mind.
Kuushana may have been introduced in various of ways, that could have been easily implemented in the game itself. Also, she was not imprisoned, she was exiled. It is really different.
1. Codex entries. This is how mass effect does it with its backstory. Most of it is given by the codex but even without it you have certain knowledge. And making a codex in a game is extremelly easy to program. It is basically text without anything. Many text based adventures have it. You can either directly talk about her and other important PACT personas or personas from other sides. Or you can make subtle refferences to her or battles she has been in.
2. The protypes, or PACT characters talking. This is how RWBY intoroduced some of its characters in the animation. Before we even see Qrow, we know from dialog that people had, that he is a hunter, Rubys uncle, uses a scythe, and is an operative for Ozpin (Main boss of good guys). We have at least some background information before he is showed in not first or second volume, but the third.
3. Backround. Other possible way is to intruduce hidden secrets in the background in some cases that could subtly show or allude to an upcoming character. Again, looking at RWBY, showing there is just as important as dialog. There are so many details especially ones that foreshadow in the background and those who are perceptive can see them.
4. Make the novel available to everyone. People should be able to read the novel to be introduced to the characters. Be like Halo. Halo as a shooter has a pretty good story, however it throws you instantly into the battle from the first game. You can gather the context and story slowly as it is given to you. You can also read the novels such as the fall of reach where you can gather even more information, but it is available freely.
And language is not important. The message is. Unless the opposition is using ad hominem attacks them using swear words doesnt reduce any civility.
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 3, 2016 22:56:24 GMT -8
Then in what scenario could we have safely introduced Kuushana? Considered how she was imprisoned throughout most of the game. And most of the story is told from Shield's point of view with only tidbits from the other side. What would be a good scenario to ease her introduction. I believe this is the first time I have brought this up but indeed, language is everything in a conversation. The moment one stoops to using obscene language is the moment when they stop respecting the other individual's input into the conversation. I ask for the same amount of civility as I give out and thus I will not respond if treated as such. Call me old fashioned if you wish, I come from an environment where censorship is everywhere mind you and I do not particularly wish to indulge my free speech in uncivilized conversations. Well, personally speaking, I'd have there be some allusions for her beforehand during interactions with Fontana. For example; - #1st: During the meetings between Gray and Fontana, Gray could ask exactly who it is Fontana intends to place in his new, redesigned PACT government, to which he references that there were "many people - some of great virtue - who would return to PACT's cause" now that Alice is ousted, explaining that there's no longer any threat of those who speak up against Alice being executed or exiled by Alice as they were during the start of her regime. This sets up that PACT had good people exiled who might return at some point now that Alice is gone and that, when they do, it'll be into a position of power (it could also set up the Denari character Samu mentioned they wanted to include in V2.00, who is probably another exile returned the same as Kuushana). - #2nd: A cutaway at one point or another where Fontana is shown contacting "someone" and saying that "your exile has come to an end", touching on how the war and division between PACT has stretched their forces thin and they need "a miracle to recover... or close enough, as it were". (as you said, "most" of Sunrider takes place from Kayto's viewpoint, but not all of it - there've been scenes showing moments between the other crew or between the PACT characters in every game). This sets up that someone who was once exiled from PACT is now returning. - #3nd: At point during a briefing for a difficult battle or during a bad situation in battle (like say, when Alice takes over the PACT fleet at Cera, or when facing the Nightmare Ascendent), Fontana could remark he knows "one person" who certainly could have turned their near-hopeless situation around - and if you want some humor in there, have Kayto think Fontana's talking about either himself or Kayto only to have Fontana give a deadpan reply that it's neither - remarking that "sadly, she's nowhere near here." This sets up that Fontana knows someone who he actually considers a better strategist and "miracle-worker" then himself or Kayto and identifies them as a "she" (as well as setting Kayto up as someone who could rival her as he does in fact manage to pull off a victory out of said situation when Fontana had doubted it possible for anyone else but Kuushana to do). All the above wouldn't require/have required all that much effort to include into the game, and would foreshadow the return of someone who has a degree of reverence in PACT the way Kuushana apparently seems to. If introducing a bunch of new characters is going to become a thing in the latter games, best to do so in a way that makes them not feel like asspulls or fanservice or the like. Also... what are you talking about? Last I checked, Fontana said Kuushana was EXILED, not imprisoned(?). As for the matter of language... no surprise, but I really disagree. If anything, I think it matters very little - I think it's more the point the argument's making that is "everything". Maybe I'm just more used to frank discussion, but I think obscene language really shouldn't be a factor of judgement - what matters is weather or not their beliefs have any truth behind them. Hell, I actually think that's a very shallow way to judge an argument - it's like saying you care more about how they say it then whether or not what they're saying is right or not - and I think asking, if not demanding, others censor their own language just to talk with you is no different then you forcing them through your own circumstances. Ahh, my mistake. I viewed exiled and imprisoned as the same. Trapped in one place, will be in a lot of trouble if left said place. But yes, what you mentioned certainly would ease her appearance. Though still in my view her original appearance was perfectly fine. I'm not expecting a grandiose work of art, I expect the author(s) to surprise me. Indeed, that is exactly what I am saying. That is called respect, that is called discipline, and that is called civility. I care more about the way you speak to me than the way this conversation is going. This is not a discussion regarding the fate of a nation, the budget of a company, or any other critical matter that will impact many many individuals. This conversation will not determine the course of this game nor impact the decision making of this company. This is a conversation between you and me, sharing our viewpoints and ideals about an entertainment good. And I expect basic civility out of it. I do not have the right to stop you from talking, thus I will stop myself from talking if I am to be treated that way.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 4, 2016 1:36:55 GMT -8
Ahh, my mistake. I viewed exiled and imprisoned as the same. Trapped in one place, will be in a lot of trouble if left said place. But yes, what you mentioned certainly would ease her appearance. Though still in my view her original appearance was perfectly fine. I'm not expecting a grandiose work of art, I expect the author(s) to surprise me. Indeed, that is exactly what I am saying. That is called respect, that is called discipline, and that is called civility. I care more about the way you speak to me than the way this conversation is going. This is not a discussion regarding the fate of a nation, the budget of a company, or any other critical matter that will impact many many individuals. This conversation will not determine the course of this game nor impact the decision making of this company. This is a conversation between you and me, sharing our viewpoints and ideals about an entertainment good. And I expect basic civility out of it. I do not have the right to stop you from talking, thus I will stop myself from talking if I am to be treated that way. Not really - being imprisoned means you are trapped in a cell or prison of some sort with no freedom. Exile simply means you cannot return to a certain place but you retain all your other freedoms, which is in no way the same as being trapped with nowhere to go and no other options to take in life. And maybe it's personal belief, but being surprised by something doesn't mean that it was good - it just means you didn't expect it to happen. Example - you could have all the main characters suddenly turn into snowmen of George Tekei (Sulu from original Star Trek); that would be surprising, but that sure as hell wouldn't be a good twist if it came out of nowhere with no rhyme or reason to it. Surprises in stories need to have some degree of good execution done to them, or they feel like asspulls - they fall flat and underwhelm when they should be big reveals. And for a character like Kuushina, who DOES seem to be a character with a grandiose reputation and backstory to her, you kinda do need those kinds of expectations - otherwise it's the same as saying you just have low expectations (in my opinion at least). Kuushana's original appearance might have been fine for a new lackey or lieutenant, but it's rather out-of-nowhere for a character that's supposed to be as important as she's being made to be. And no - if you ask me, that is DISRESPECT because you are implying, if not ordering, people you hardly even know to meet some kind of self-appointed standard simply to speak with you. That, to a good degree, is censorship no different from what you claimed to hate. To say "that is called discipline, and that is called civility" - that is another strawman argument; those only go as far as not insulting the other person in the debate or demeaning them/treating them lesser then yourself, none of which is done simply by cursing in general. It does not have any stipulation for even constant foul language, let alone occasional. And if anything, that last bit actually rings opposite for me - for multiple reasons. First; the whole point of a community form is to give feedback and discussion the devs TAKE ACCOUNT of, and it's because of that feedback that V2.00 and [RE]Turn exist, so you're wrong on both counts in saying talking here wouldn't change anything. Second; even if we DO say it's solely "a conversation between you and me, sharing our viewpoints and ideals about an entertainment good", then language should matter EVEN LESS because, by your own admission, there is no business-edict/criteria it needs to follow. It in no way applies to you being "treated" in any form of insulting way. Third; when having a debate, I expect people to... you know, debate? Not to write extra paragraphs demanding some kind of stigma on how it's worded - it's just derailing things at this point. I know it's blunt, but this is the internet - people will curse. You can't change that, let alone demand others stop as if it's your choice, dude. You deciding to "stop (yourself) from talking" doesn't change the fact that you ARE indeed acting like you CAN "stop (me) from talking" because it's a "my way or the highway" mentality.
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 4, 2016 8:36:09 GMT -8
Ahh, my mistake. I viewed exiled and imprisoned as the same. Trapped in one place, will be in a lot of trouble if left said place. But yes, what you mentioned certainly would ease her appearance. Though still in my view her original appearance was perfectly fine. I'm not expecting a grandiose work of art, I expect the author(s) to surprise me. Indeed, that is exactly what I am saying. That is called respect, that is called discipline, and that is called civility. I care more about the way you speak to me than the way this conversation is going. This is not a discussion regarding the fate of a nation, the budget of a company, or any other critical matter that will impact many many individuals. This conversation will not determine the course of this game nor impact the decision making of this company. This is a conversation between you and me, sharing our viewpoints and ideals about an entertainment good. And I expect basic civility out of it. I do not have the right to stop you from talking, thus I will stop myself from talking if I am to be treated that way. Not really - being imprisoned means you are trapped in a cell or prison of some sort with no freedom. Exile simply means you cannot return to a certain place but you retain all your other freedoms, which is in no way the same as being trapped with nowhere to go and no other options to take in life. And maybe it's personal belief, but being surprised by something doesn't mean that it was good - it just means you didn't expect it to happen. Example - you could have all the main characters suddenly turn into snowmen of George Tekei (Sulu from original Star Trek); that would be surprising, but that sure as hell wouldn't be a good twist if it came out of nowhere with no rhyme or reason to it. Surprises in stories need to have some degree of good execution done to them, or they feel like asspulls - they fall flat and underwhelm when they should be big reveals. And for a character like Kuushina, who DOES seem to be a character with a grandiose reputation and backstory to her, you kinda do need those kinds of expectations - otherwise it's the same as saying you just have low expectations (in my opinion at least). Kuushana's original appearance might have been fine for a new lackey or lieutenant, but it's rather out-of-nowhere for a character that's supposed to be as important as she's being made to be. And no - if you ask me, that is DISRESPECT because you are implying, if not ordering, people you hardly even know to meet some kind of self-appointed standard simply to speak with you. That, to a good degree, is censorship no different from what you claimed to hate. To say "that is called discipline, and that is called civility" - that is another strawman argument; those only go as far as not insulting the other person in the debate or demeaning them/treating them lesser then yourself, none of which is done simply by cursing in general. It does not have any stipulation for even constant foul language, let alone occasional. And if anything, that last bit actually rings opposite for me - for multiple reasons. First; the whole point of a community form is to give feedback and discussion the devs TAKE ACCOUNT of, and it's because of that feedback that V2.00 and [RE]Turn exist, so you're wrong on both counts in saying talking here wouldn't change anything. Second; even if we DO say it's solely "a conversation between you and me, sharing our viewpoints and ideals about an entertainment good", then language should matter EVEN LESS because, by your own admission, there is no business-edict/criteria it needs to follow. It in no way applies to you being "treated" in any form of insulting way. Third; when having a debate, I expect people to... you know, debate? Not to write extra paragraphs demanding some kind of stigma on how it's worded - it's just derailing things at this point. I know it's blunt, but this is the internet - people will curse. You can't change that, let alone demand others stop as if it's your choice, dude. You deciding to "stop (yourself) from talking" doesn't change the fact that you ARE indeed acting like you CAN "stop (me) from talking" because it's a "my way or the highway" mentality. Even when I agree with you, your responses and rebuttals to my acceptance are these long explanations. Why? I stated my own opinion and view, while agreeing with you. Yet you continue this, why? Is it because my misconception must be clearly and utterly explained to where there is no doubt? Do I care about how well you think the execution in Sunrider was when I personally felt it was fine? Do I need examples on what kind of surprises is good and what kind of surprises is bad? Do I not know perfectly well what I like and what I don't like? You see. We both share ideals that are very set in. There is nothing I can ever say to change your view (Or not provoke a super long response) and there is nothing you can say to change my view on certain things. Do you really think our conversation, our posts amongsts the thousands of others, really significantly impact the game? Developers are busy, extremely busy and our views are simply one among many. They look at the community, generalize how it reacts, and rolls with it. There is no room for micromanagement. They cannot appease everyone. You see Stanley, I am not here to debate. Which is something I'm sure you love to do, on every single possible thing. I started this conversation knowing and expecting your reaction to confirm a few things and... Discover a couple new interesting points on how Kuushana could have been better integrated into the game. Language should matter less, to you. I am not you, I do not care as much as you think about the topic on hand. There is a certain basic mannerism one reserves for strangers, especially strangers. Distant, but cordial. That is not the internet, that is reality. If you say that because this is the internet, that you can drop all forms of mannerisms then... Well. Look how close we've gotten already. I never would have gotten this friendly in a conversation with a stranger. And no, I do not hate censorship. It is as a part of life as free speech is. It is the one right each and every individual has when met with something they do not agree with, walk away. A game that they do not find enjoyable? (Put down the controller and) Walk away. A stranger that they felt is being rude to them? Walk away. To separate oneself from the conflict, is that not the beauty of things? Don't answer that, I expect another long paragraph out of you. Now, depending on your next post. You can either make me look like a halfwit by posting something significantly less in effort as a response. Or you could respond in full in to which I'll simply smile and happily accept whatever it is you will say.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 4, 2016 12:35:55 GMT -8
Even when I agree with you, your responses and rebuttals to my acceptance are these long explanations. Why? I stated my own opinion and view, while agreeing with you. Yet you continue this, why? Is it because my misconception must be clearly and utterly explained to where there is no doubt? Do I care about how well you think the execution in Sunrider was when I personally felt it was fine? Do I need examples on what kind of surprises is good and what kind of surprises is bad? Do I not know perfectly well what I like and what I don't like? You see. We both share ideals that are very set in. There is nothing I can ever say to change your view (Or not provoke a super long response) and there is nothing you can say to change my view on certain things. Do you really think our conversation, our posts amongsts the thousands of others, really significantly impact the game? Developers are busy, extremely busy and our views are simply one among many. They look at the community, generalize how it reacts, and rolls with it. There is no room for micromanagement. They cannot appease everyone. You see Stanley, I am not here to debate. Which is something I'm sure you love to do, on every single possible thing. I started this conversation knowing and expecting your reaction to confirm a few things and... Discover a couple new interesting points on how Kuushana could have been better integrated into the game. Language should matter less, to you. I am not you, I do not care as much as you think about the topic on hand. There is a certain basic mannerism one reserves for strangers, especially strangers. Distant, but cordial. That is not the internet, that is reality. If you say that because this is the internet, that you can drop all forms of mannerisms then... Well. Look how close we've gotten already. I never would have gotten this friendly in a conversation with a stranger. And no, I do not hate censorship. It is as a part of life as free speech is. It is the one right each and every individual has when met with something they do not agree with, walk away. A game that they do not find enjoyable? (Put down the controller and) Walk away. A stranger that they felt is being rude to them? Walk away. To separate oneself from the conflict, is that not the beauty of things? Don't answer that, I expect another long paragraph out of you. Now, depending on your next post. You can either make me look like a halfwit by posting something significantly less in effort as a response. Or you could respond in full in to which I'll simply smile and happily accept whatever it is you will say. "Agree with me?" Dude, every paragraph before now has been you saying you DIDN'T agree with me about Kuushana's appearance feeling like an asspull - when exactly did that change? Where did you ever "agree" with me in that? Moreover, that's kinda the POINT of a debate - disseminating points and rationalizing your own; showing the other person your point of view. In fact, I thought having it "clearly and utterly explained to where there is no doubt" was what you WANTED, given your stigma against casual cursing. Not true, actually - Marx was the one who eventually dissuaded me from my original belief that LibDay was total garbage. I'm not unreasonable - no human being is ever totally "set in" something. In a word, yes - yes I do. Because that is the whole purpose of having a community forum to give feedback on - the existence of V2.00 and [RE]Turn are kinda proof of this being true. And yes, there is room for micromanagement depending on the scale and quality of what the post/critique is - keep in mind that LiS is NOT a big-time company like the others you're probably talking about, so there's a bit more room. And in the last part... that IS still wanting to debate; it's wanting to discuss what could or couldn't have made it work better. (also... who the hell is Stanley??). Um... you just said you didn't care about a debate... so that just makes it STRANGER that you'd care about the language so much if you saw it as something topical. In "reality", people speak their minds. Being "distant but cordial" - that again only goes as far as not DIRECTLY INSULTING them; it does not give any implication that they can't curse or the like at all. Acting otherwise is IGNORING REALITY - it's acting like you can force how people do or don't speak or behave. As for the last part, that's a simple answer - "Kayto Shields Syndrome:" The belief that just running away from whatever you don't like is somehow a "strength". Say what you want about me, but censorship isn't a part of life or it's freedoms - it's the result of them being suppressed. Walking away doesn't change that.
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 4, 2016 14:07:07 GMT -8
Even when I agree with you, your responses and rebuttals to my acceptance are these long explanations. Why? I stated my own opinion and view, while agreeing with you. Yet you continue this, why? Is it because my misconception must be clearly and utterly explained to where there is no doubt? Do I care about how well you think the execution in Sunrider was when I personally felt it was fine? Do I need examples on what kind of surprises is good and what kind of surprises is bad? Do I not know perfectly well what I like and what I don't like? You see. We both share ideals that are very set in. There is nothing I can ever say to change your view (Or not provoke a super long response) and there is nothing you can say to change my view on certain things. Do you really think our conversation, our posts amongsts the thousands of others, really significantly impact the game? Developers are busy, extremely busy and our views are simply one among many. They look at the community, generalize how it reacts, and rolls with it. There is no room for micromanagement. They cannot appease everyone. You see Stanley, I am not here to debate. Which is something I'm sure you love to do, on every single possible thing. I started this conversation knowing and expecting your reaction to confirm a few things and... Discover a couple new interesting points on how Kuushana could have been better integrated into the game. Language should matter less, to you. I am not you, I do not care as much as you think about the topic on hand. There is a certain basic mannerism one reserves for strangers, especially strangers. Distant, but cordial. That is not the internet, that is reality. If you say that because this is the internet, that you can drop all forms of mannerisms then... Well. Look how close we've gotten already. I never would have gotten this friendly in a conversation with a stranger. And no, I do not hate censorship. It is as a part of life as free speech is. It is the one right each and every individual has when met with something they do not agree with, walk away. A game that they do not find enjoyable? (Put down the controller and) Walk away. A stranger that they felt is being rude to them? Walk away. To separate oneself from the conflict, is that not the beauty of things? Don't answer that, I expect another long paragraph out of you. Now, depending on your next post. You can either make me look like a halfwit by posting something significantly less in effort as a response. Or you could respond in full in to which I'll simply smile and happily accept whatever it is you will say. "Agree with me?" Dude, every paragraph before now has been you saying you DIDN'T agree with me about Kuushana's appearance feeling like an asspull - when exactly did that change? Where did you ever "agree" with me in that? Moreover, that's kinda the POINT of a debate - disseminating points and rationalizing your own; showing the other person your point of view. In fact, I thought having it "clearly and utterly explained to where there is no doubt" was what you WANTED, given your stigma against casual cursing. Not true, actually - Marx was the one who eventually dissuaded me from my original belief that LibDay was total garbage. I'm not unreasonable - no human being is ever totally "set in" something. In a word, yes - yes I do. Because that is the whole purpose of having a community forum to give feedback on - the existence of V2.00 and [RE]Turn are kinda proof of this being true. And yes, there is room for micromanagement depending on the scale and quality of what the post/critique is - keep in mind that LiS is NOT a big-time company like the others you're probably talking about, so there's a bit more room. And in the last part... that IS still wanting to debate; it's wanting to discuss what could or couldn't have made it work better. (also... who the hell is Stanley??). Um... you just said you didn't care about a debate... so that just makes it STRANGER that you'd care about the language so much if you saw it as something topical. In "reality", people speak their minds. Being "distant but cordial" - that again only goes as far as not DIRECTLY INSULTING them; it does not give any implication that they can't curse or the like at all. Acting otherwise is IGNORING REALITY - it's acting like you can force how people do or don't speak or behave. As for the last part, that's a simple answer - "Kayto Shields Syndrome:" The belief that just running away from whatever you don't like is somehow a "strength". Say what you want about me, but censorship isn't a part of life or it's freedoms - it's the result of them being suppressed. Walking away doesn't change that. I suppose I'll bite again... It's not as bad this time. Forgive me then, I didn't phrase myself clearly. But you have received the message now so take it as you will. No use going back to reinterpret something. I'll bite. Indoctrination and culture. Something that is clearly not enforced these days. There, I've expressed my opinion. Would you like to know more? Hm, alright. (Tch, you didn't get the reference.) Hmph, it's not strange at all. Here, let me explain myself again. In reality, if someone does something you feel is disrespecting you. You either 1: ignore (aka, walk away since you have something better to do), 2: address them (since you don't have anything better to do), or 3: punch them in the gabba (since this is the best thing you're going to do). Does that mean you have to censor yourself? Of course not! It just means the other person won't talk to you. I am afraid to list anymore examples because I fear if I do, you will debate each and every one of them. It will never end. You see, I've never directly stated you can't curse. My only bargaining chip in this matter is to end my conversation with you and go about my way. Does that affect you in any way? Does that bother you? Do I matter? Do I matter that much? I don't. I'll also bite about censorship. I. Don't. Care. I do not walk away to change things. I walk away because I don't care. If being suppressed will result in order and stability, then so be it. But I suppose that sort of ideology does not sit well with you. I do not understand. You've received my message, but you are still debating my statements and opinions. I am not sure what you are debating about, but if you'd like. We can continue?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 4, 2016 16:58:55 GMT -8
I suppose I'll bite again... It's not as bad this time. Forgive me then, I didn't phrase myself clearly. But you have received the message now so take it as you will. No use going back to reinterpret something. I'll bite. Indoctrination and culture. Something that is clearly not enforced these days. There, I've expressed my opinion. Would you like to know more? Hm, alright. (Tch, you didn't get the reference.) Hmph, it's not strange at all. Here, let me explain myself again. In reality, if someone does something you feel is disrespecting you. You either 1: ignore (aka, walk away since you have something better to do), 2: address them (since you don't have anything better to do), or 3: punch them in the gabba (since this is the best thing you're going to do). Does that mean you have to censor yourself? Of course not! It just means the other person won't talk to you. I am afraid to list anymore examples because I fear if I do, you will debate each and every one of them. It will never end. You see, I've never directly stated you can't curse. My only bargaining chip in this matter is to end my conversation with you and go about my way. Does that affect you in any way? Does that bother you? Do I matter? Do I matter that much? I don't. I'll also bite about censorship. I. Don't. Care. I do not walk away to change things. I walk away because I don't care. If being suppressed will result in order and stability, then so be it. But I suppose that sort of ideology does not sit well with you. I do not understand. You've received my message, but you are still debating my statements and opinions. I am not sure what you are debating about, but if you'd like. We can continue? Um... what? It kinda looks like you dodged the first question - I asked where in that debate about Kuushana did you ever agree with me about any of it at any point like you claimed to? Again, that IS strange - #1 is the SAME as censoring because you're demanding they conform to your standard simply to talk to you. #2 is not limited to that - it's pretty much the default choice. And #3 is the SAME as censoring because it's a threat of pain if they don't do what you tell them to. How is "speak as I do or I walk" not the same as forcing a standard on the debate - AKA; censoring? See, this is another issue in how you debate - "I'll bite", "I suppose I'll bite," "don't have anything better to do", ect. It comes off as quite a bit arrogant - like your position is so much greater then the other's that you treat them like kids. Even if it's not your intent, it comes across like you feel you're more "intellectually enlightened" then the other. And then you turn around and try to paint the other person as the culprit of a breakdown. If this really doesn't affect you that much - if you feel so confident in that standard - WHY are you trying to throw so much focus on it instead of the actual point if the debate?? (which was suggestions for the Sunrider series from this point on) Obviously you do care or you wouldn't have kept at this for multiple posts.
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 4, 2016 17:38:10 GMT -8
I suppose I'll bite again... It's not as bad this time. Forgive me then, I didn't phrase myself clearly. But you have received the message now so take it as you will. No use going back to reinterpret something. I'll bite. Indoctrination and culture. Something that is clearly not enforced these days. There, I've expressed my opinion. Would you like to know more? Hm, alright. (Tch, you didn't get the reference.) Hmph, it's not strange at all. Here, let me explain myself again. In reality, if someone does something you feel is disrespecting you. You either 1: ignore (aka, walk away since you have something better to do), 2: address them (since you don't have anything better to do), or 3: punch them in the gabba (since this is the best thing you're going to do). Does that mean you have to censor yourself? Of course not! It just means the other person won't talk to you. I am afraid to list anymore examples because I fear if I do, you will debate each and every one of them. It will never end. You see, I've never directly stated you can't curse. My only bargaining chip in this matter is to end my conversation with you and go about my way. Does that affect you in any way? Does that bother you? Do I matter? Do I matter that much? I don't. I'll also bite about censorship. I. Don't. Care. I do not walk away to change things. I walk away because I don't care. If being suppressed will result in order and stability, then so be it. But I suppose that sort of ideology does not sit well with you. I do not understand. You've received my message, but you are still debating my statements and opinions. I am not sure what you are debating about, but if you'd like. We can continue? Um... what? It kinda looks like you dodged the first question - I asked where in that debate about Kuushana did you ever agree with me about any of it at any point like you claimed to? Again, that IS strange - #1 is the SAME as censoring because you're demanding they conform to your standard simply to talk to you. #2 is not limited to that - it's pretty much the default choice. And #3 is the SAME as censoring because it's a threat of pain if they don't do what you tell them to. How is "speak as I do or I walk" not the same as forcing a standard on the debate - AKA; censoring? See, this is another issue in how you debate - "I'll bite", "I suppose I'll bite," "don't have anything better to do", ect. It comes off as quite a bit arrogant - like your position is so much greater then the other's that you treat them like kids. Even if it's not your intent, it comes across like you feel you're more "intellectually enlightened" then the other. And then you turn around and try to paint the other person as the culprit of a breakdown. If this really doesn't affect you that much - if you feel so confident in that standard - WHY are you trying to throw so much focus on it instead of the actual point if the debate?? (which was suggestions for the Sunrider series from this point on) Obviously you do care or you wouldn't have kept at this for multiple posts. :3 Thank you for getting it.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 4, 2016 19:49:16 GMT -8
:3 Thank you for getting it. You're still dodging the question. Hell, at this point you're just trying to derail it by trolling. And if you're not interested in debate, then just answer the questions. What exactly are you afraid of? You claim "It is perfectly normal for one to formulate one's own opinions", but you sure try your damndest to suppress them.
To get back on topic (in spite of seeming attempts to derail it), Kuushana's introduction felt a bit forced purely because it came out of nowhere for such a major character - to be blunt, it felt like it was more a forced attempt to connect the Veniczar novel to the series as quick as possible instead of it having been a natural progression and introduction of her character. Give little hints here and there when introducing new characters - especially main antagonists/factional leaders. When it comes to background stuff - things that are extraneous or the like, Dextix's suggestion of a Codex seems sound. Of course, the big issue is the same as it's strength - it may be just nothing but text, but a consequence of that is that you're devoting a lot of time to said nothing but text. Of course, you could simply delegate that task to someone else - I'm sure there'd be no shortage of volunteers who'd like to write codex entries for you. As for something to help Sunrider in general... I'm sorry - personally speaking, I still think a new midgame-arc for LibDay is sorely needed, because of something that I feel was pretty badly overlooked and still has been. Something that, after all the talk I'd heard from Vaen, I'm honestly surprised the devs never addressed; Chigara. (Bear with me on this for a moment - it'll take a moment to explain in detail... as usual ) One of the biggest reasons the LibDay "railroad romance" failed was because it, personally speaking, felt far too stupidly picturesque for the situation and circumstances - it was executed so artificially that it was almost impossible to take seriously. [RE]Turn doesn't fix that because it's only the future-Kayto that references doubts about the pace and state of the relationship - present-Kayto never has any problem. But the bigger issue is neither V2.00 nor [RE]Turn really expanded on Chigara's side of things - it didn't focus on any of her own doubts, fears, emotional moments or the like; she was portrayed as almost a token-character with no purpose other then to be the "dere girlfriend" or the "object of the game", even in [RE]Turn. We're told things but we never actually see them with her - we never actually see HOW or WHY Chigara is so comforting to Kayto in LibDay besides being "dere". For all we know, Chigara might have felt the same as Kayto - that her desire to prove to herself she was/could be a "normal girl" might have been a/the key factor for her wanting the relationship to move as fast as she did. A mig-game arc showing Chigara dealing with doubts about how fast she's pushing the relationship, fears of whether or not Kayto is reciprocating out of love or lust and even guilt/paranoia that she might have come between him and Ava, would have grounded her more - made us sympathize with her more. Personally speaking, I'd think a good way to do that would have been to make said mid-game arc about the Ceren Resistance - contacting them and getting their support for the retaking of Cera by springing a bunch of their captured members from a PACT prison ship/facility. It would be a storyline that would really force Kayto and Chigara to think about what exactly kind of a future it is they're trying to build together, illustrating that they DO in fact have doubts about how things are going and weather or not it'll even last after the war's over, yet opting to go for it anyway. After that though, on the matter of future Sunrider games... my personal recommendation would be this; do not go back to the way it was. In [RE]Turn, we saw the crew actually start to break away from the Kayto of LibDay as it became more obvious to them that he was emotionally compromised to the point of being unfit to lead - I think there should be more of that. I do not think the crew should just default back to implicitly trusting the captain - I think that, once their knee-jerk happiness that he survived everything has worn off, there ought to be doubt and conflict; periods where his competency is actually brought into question by them after everything that happened because of his actions. Thinks like claiming what he did in sacrificing the Sunrider was just him trying to run away from his guilt all over again, or weather or not what happened with Chigara is just going to happen again with another girl, ect. If the goal was to show Kayto wasn't perfect in LibDay, do the same for the other characters - make it so that he's not just instantly let off the hook for what happened. Or at least that's my suggestion on how to go forward.
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 4, 2016 22:44:29 GMT -8
Formulate your opinions, I'm not stopping you. :3
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 4, 2016 23:45:42 GMT -8
Formulate your opinions, I'm not stopping you. :3 Yes. Yes you are. By not answering - by dodging the questions and outright trolling, you are derailing the thread and effectively trying to suppress opinions in any debate with you. It's the kind of attitude that makes one wonder why you even bother coming to the forums - especially since you didn't seem to be TRYING to act like a dick until something as pointless as language was brought up. If you don't plan to stop me, nor plan to debate... why are you still here commenting?
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Post by InquisitorJeeves on Jun 5, 2016 1:44:16 GMT -8
To get back on topic (in spite of seeming attempts to derail it), Kuushana's introduction felt a bit forced purely because it came out of nowhere for such a major character - to be blunt, it felt like it was more a forced attempt to connect the Veniczar novel to the series as quick as possible instead of it having been a natural progression and introduction of her character. Give little hints here and there when introducing new characters - especially main antagonists/factional leaders. When it comes to background stuff - things that are extraneous or the like, Dextix's suggestion of a Codex seems sound. Of course, the big issue is the same as it's strength - it may be just nothing but text, but a consequence of that is that you're devoting a lot of time to said nothing but text. Of course, you could simply delegate that task to someone else - I'm sure there'd be no shortage of volunteers who'd like to write codex entries for you. As for something to help Sunrider in general... I'm sorry - personally speaking, I still think a new midgame-arc for LibDay is sorely needed, because of something that I feel was pretty badly overlooked and still has been. Something that, after all the talk I'd heard from Vaen, I'm honestly surprised the devs never addressed; Chigara. (Bear with me on this for a moment - it'll take a moment to explain in detail... as usual ) One of the biggest reasons the LibDay "railroad romance" failed was because it, personally speaking, felt far too stupidly picturesque for the situation and circumstances - it was executed so artificially that it was almost impossible to take seriously. [RE]Turn doesn't fix that because it's only the future-Kayto that references doubts about the pace and state of the relationship - present-Kayto never has any problem. But the bigger issue is neither V2.00 nor [RE]Turn really expanded on Chigara's side of things - it didn't focus on any of her own doubts, fears, emotional moments or the like; she was portrayed as almost a token-character with no purpose other then to be the "dere girlfriend" or the "object of the game", even in [RE]Turn. We're told things but we never actually see them with her - we never actually see HOW or WHY Chigara is so comforting to Kayto in LibDay besides being "dere". For all we know, Chigara might have felt the same as Kayto - that her desire to prove to herself she was/could be a "normal girl" might have been a/the key factor for her wanting the relationship to move as fast as she did. A mig-game arc showing Chigara dealing with doubts about how fast she's pushing the relationship, fears of whether or not Kayto is reciprocating out of love or lust and even guilt/paranoia that she might have come between him and Ava, would have grounded her more - made us sympathize with her more. Personally speaking, I'd think a good way to do that would have been to make said mid-game arc about the Ceren Resistance - contacting them and getting their support for the retaking of Cera by springing a bunch of their captured members from a PACT prison ship/facility. It would be a storyline that would really force Kayto and Chigara to think about what exactly kind of a future it is they're trying to build together, illustrating that they DO in fact have doubts about how things are going and weather or not it'll even last after the war's over, yet opting to go for it anyway. After that though, on the matter of future Sunrider games... my personal recommendation would be this; do not go back to the way it was. In [RE]Turn, we saw the crew actually start to break away from the Kayto of LibDay as it became more obvious to them that he was emotionally compromised to the point of being unfit to lead - I think there should be more of that. I do not think the crew should just default back to implicitly trusting the captain - I think that, once their knee-jerk happiness that he survived everything has worn off, there ought to be doubt and conflict; periods where his competency is actually brought into question by them after everything that happened because of his actions. Thinks like claiming what he did in sacrificing the Sunrider was just him trying to run away from his guilt all over again, or weather or not what happened with Chigara is just going to happen again with another girl, ect. If the goal was to show Kayto wasn't perfect in LibDay, do the same for the other characters - make it so that he's not just instantly let off the hook for what happened. Or at least that's my suggestion on how to go forward. When I first saw Kuushana I figured that she was a character intended to be introduced in the next game (the version 2.00 ending was supposed to be the beginning of the next Sunrider game I think) so her introduction didn't really bother me that much. She also explained just why Alice turned into a genocidal idiot which was a bonus for me since I had no idea. I can see how it can come across as forced though. A novel character being introduced into the games reminds me of Kai Leng from Mass Effect 3 (Anderson and Miranda talked about him as if he was some dangerous guy who I should be careful around. I had no idea why he was such a big deal and thought of him as more of a nuisance who killed Thane and mocked me after he ran away from every fight). If Chigara reappears in the future I'm hoping for an option to have Kayto kill her/stay as far away from her as possible. Liberation Day left me thoroughly irritated by her, the Prototypes, and everything to do with Diode. It'd also be cool to have some dialogue options with Claude showing that we still don't fully trust her yet (she didn't know about Alice's genocidal plans, but still worked to further the goals of those responsible for killing millions, if not billions, in a pointless interstellar war, and she doesn't seem all that apologetic about it :L).
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 12, 2016 23:22:22 GMT -8
When I first saw Kuushana I figured that she was a character intended to be introduced in the next game (the version 2.00 ending was supposed to be the beginning of the next Sunrider game I think) so her introduction didn't really bother me that much. She also explained just why Alice turned into a genocidal idiot which was a bonus for me since I had no idea. I can see how it can come across as forced though. A novel character being introduced into the games reminds me of Kai Leng from Mass Effect 3 (Anderson and Miranda talked about him as if he was some dangerous guy who I should be careful around. I had no idea why he was such a big deal and thought of him as more of a nuisance who killed Thane and mocked me after he ran away from every fight). If Chigara reappears in the future I'm hoping for an option to have Kayto kill her/stay as far away from her as possible. Liberation Day left me thoroughly irritated by her, the Prototypes, and everything to do with Diode. It'd also be cool to have some dialogue options with Claude showing that we still don't fully trust her yet (she didn't know about Alice's genocidal plans, but still worked to further the goals of those responsible for killing millions, if not billions, in a pointless interstellar war, and she doesn't seem all that apologetic about it :L). Well, maybe, but even then that has issues of it's own. I could understand it being rushed - LiS probably felt panicked to get something out to try and smooth out complaints about the game's story, so as a result the scene with Kuushana was rushed out without being properly paced. Had it been the intro for the next game as was probably intended, it probably would have been edited better. In the end though, it doesn't change the fact that as it is, it's not the best introduction for such a major character - and yes, Kai Leng is very much the poster boy for why I think one should implement novel-based characters better. Because, in all honesty, the fact that Kuushana is a pre-established character from the Veniczar novel is why her abrupt introduction chafes a bit. I agree on this, though at the same time what I'd really like to see more is that irritation be mirrored in the crew. As far as I can tell, LibDay was trying (emphasis on TRYING) to illustrate a story of how love and human emotions are a double-edged sword; they aren't purely a weakness like Alice thought, yet they aren't purely a strength like Kayto thought, and both ended up undone because they couldn't change their beliefs until the very end. An now that we've seen them have their big "the Captain's not dead!" emotional moment, I really think the only way to really rectify LibDay's failure to illustrate things is to have the crew - now armed with months of hindsight and time to think on it - is a bit less trusting of their captain then they were before. I'd think they'd be more prone to question his decisions and priorities, or grill him about what the hell it was he was thinking in how he fell in with Chigara so quickly and unquestioningly. Another thing that I think ought to be addressed - Kayto's martyr syndrome. In LibDay, Kayto SUPPOSEDLY fell in with Chigara so hard because he was trying to prove to himself that he just wanted some form of release, and Chigara reciprocated because she wanted to prove to herself that she was a normal girl or that, if she wasn't, that she could be. In [RE]Turn... even with hindsight, he STILL fell into this as, for most of the routes, he treated Chigara as the sourcepoint for his past self's actions, even going as far as to see Chigara as "corrupting" him ("What has Chigara done to him?!", ect). It wasn't until the very end (when he punched his old self out) that he finally admitted that (regardless of if his feelings for Chigara were love or just dependence) he fell into the relationship because of his own need to feel like he could save someone and protect them. All throughout LibDay, Kayto had placed blame on himself for things that weren't his fault, yet refused to take blame for the things that were - he threw away the Sunrider away because of misplaced guilt over Cera's fall and Maray's death, yet he raged at Fontana and even Ava at one point for pointing out his obsession (more on having a relationship to lean on then even Chigara herself, possibly) had blinded him to what had always been obvious. He tried to martyr himself even as he refused to accept he was making wrong choices, and a good catharsis would be seeing someone on the crew confront him on it the way they did in [RE]Turn. LibDay, in spite of being toted as the game where the crew was going to start tearing itself apart... doesn't. If anything, it feels more like the SETUP for that - because it's only now, after Kayto's big screw-up, that the crew does in fact have a solid reason to doubt Kayto as much as he doubts himself. Voice uncertainty at times, question his state at others - maybe even do the most unthinkable thing for a waifu to do; be put off of pursuing the PC (unless they make the right choices to win her back). Asaga seems a rather good candidate for the last part, between fear that Kayto's just going to do to her what he did to Chigara (comfort-romance that might not even be real), disgust at how someone she was interested in could fall to such a low to begin with and guilt at not knowing how much of what Chigara felt was Prototype plan and how much of it was really Chigara/whether or not the girl she called a surrogate sister was lying from the start or just tragically manipulated like the rest of them.
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