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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 16, 2017 12:33:32 GMT -8
As bigfoot said, we all suck at this at the start, we just need get going. Just give it a try and start with small things, like changing a line of text here or there (after having made backups of course). It is just a very special feeling to see for the first time that you can bend an existing game to your will (at least to a certain degree and hopefully without making it throw errors left and right). While I came to Sunrider with some previous experiences, I certainly was a beginner as well when I did my first modifications for Civilization 4, coding-wise and especially 3D modelling-wise, but it is a lot of fun (and a bit frustrating inbetween) to get into this stuff and noticing how ones abilities improve over time. But that's precisely the point; I don't want an attempted addition to the story to be my "start" at coding - something like that, I don't want to be feeling my way through it. In regards to special feelings, the only thing I ever felt was anxiety over potentially screwing up the games I have - hell, I got that way even just installing mods from other people on games, let alone trying to make my own. When it comes to trying to work at aspects of the story I find negative, that's something I feel a lot more confident in... but working on actual hard-code? Not confident XD. Respectfully, it could win an award for the simplest task out there and it still wouldn't matter if I personally didn't have the confidence to approach it - how complicated it is or isn't is moot if I don't feel like I have the chops to do it. Story-writing is one thing I'm comfortable with; modding isn't Anyway, still wondering on that response; do I bother to put my ideas on how I'd have added or expanded to LibDay's original story here, or should I start another thread for it since it'd be detailing what the events of something close to an expansion would be like?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 15, 2017 10:28:44 GMT -8
If it is just text drop, the coding in RenPy is not complicated: cos "Aren't you forgetting about someone--!?" kay "(Now of all times? We don't have time for this!)" kay "All units, scratch your previous orders. Regroup and engage the pirates on the double." asa "Copy that, Sunrider!" cos "You agaainn!?" cos "Hahahaha...!!!" cos "This is where it all ends!" asa "You're too late! PACT's defeated! We've got Arcadius!"
Of course there are other things involved as well, like setting the background image, make charater sprites appear, change and disappear, play sounds and music and so on, but most of these are easy to understand, especially since you have the script of the game available as a blueprint. I think there is also a RenPy tool available which offers an interface for this stuff, so you do not need to directly script yourself, but I am not too sure about that, since I am more used to direct scripting. Except when you have zero experience in it (coding, I mean), hence why I say I suck at it; can't get worse than absolutely no know-how I can try a hand at writing a script, certainly, but I've never modded code before so it'd be a poor effort for me to make this a first try.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 14, 2017 15:33:53 GMT -8
Anyway, while I don't think a new DLC for Liberation Day is a particularly viable avenue for Love in Space itself to pursue, particularly one set in the middle of the game that requires players to start over and doesn't introduce new plot elements, a story mod that fleshes out the Chigara romance certainly sounds within the realm of possibility for the community. Have you considered creating something like that, Sharr? I know it wouldn't offer the satisfaction of being official or canon, but it'd still be something. If it became a general community project that had a fair amount of group input, you could even potentially suggest that Magpie show Samu a concise, recorded version of the new content, perhaps along with notes justifying the changes. I'm generally wary of fans telling creators "No, this is how you do it!", but the Chigara romance was the subject of wide enough criticism that it might be warranted here, if not for the sake of officially improving Liberation Day, then for the sake of improving the depiction of romance in subsequent installments, and a proof of concept implemented within the actual source material has the potential to make for a much better argument than forum posts. Even ignoring that possibility, a mod would still let you play a version of the game that's that much closer to your ideal version. In the event that something like this did indeed become a community collaboration, I'd definitely be onboard, though there'd be a bit of a learning curve involved. I've never modded Liberation Day, only Mask of Arcadius, and even those segments lack player choices and aren't hooked into the main game. But then, that's what tutorials are for, I suppose. It's stuff I'll get around to learning at some point anyway. My problem with that though, is... well, [RE]Turn exists. It's a completely non-canon extension done for free, yet I think the amount of work that was put into it might actually outweigh the amount of work that would have been needed to fix LibDay's main story. [RE]Turn did just about everything you listed here - it was an addition that (technically) took place in the middle of everything that requires players to start over with a whole new story, doesn't introduce any actual new plot elements so much as exposit on the ones that already exist, and ultimately doesn't change anything since it's not part of the canon, to say nothing of how you can't even play it unless you beat the main game in the first place. It wasn't a bad side-tale, mind you - in fact, the best writing in LibDay is in it - but at the end of the day, it's non-canon and thus did nothing to really fix what LibDay's main issues were; it's core story. As for the prospect of modding... I haven't considered it on the basis that I suck at coding. I might be capable of writing out something akin to a script, but actually implementing it into the game would be outside the purview of my skills. That being said, I could give a crack at the "writing a plot" part, though IDK if I should post that here or make a separate thread for it.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 14, 2017 12:31:37 GMT -8
I will say though in terms of conversations and feedback I have dealt with so far there has been a far greater number of people voicing frustration at the lack of romance options (which tends to be the trend when it comes to visual novels as a format) in the main plot of LD over people who were frustration with elements of characterisation, this is a fact and not me been tone deaf to feedback. This is also not about me saying that feedback not related to character routes in the story are any less valid but rather wanting to be pragmatic so in the event of a new Sunrider I can make focused proposals on what people would want to read more about to expand on what is previously established, eg. From Kayto's perspective how did Chigara's company empower him into behaving as he did. At the end of the day Liberation Day isn't getting re written/re made and it is very unlikely to get anymore additional content (outside of fixes). People may disagree with elements in the story but they've now happened and things have moved on, in that sense this is established as what Samu wanted to portray in his writing for this part. In this sense I'm not looking to make a case or justify for what has been written before, I'm just musing on the moment as an observer. Finally you are going to get more discussions leading into improvements if you are looking to the future rather than walking the same ground again and again. Apologies for a bit of a stinker in terms of a post but genuinely I've noted some useful points over the duration of this thread and I hope we're able to shape them into something at a later date.  But that's the exact point, though - if people were demanding more options, doesn't that logically mean that it's because they disliked the one they got? Like what Sorzo said earlier, what kills the plot of a story is when the events in it feel like they're just plot points - and in turn, it feels to me like what killed Chigara for so many people is that the romance with her felt like it was nothing but a plot point. Her feelings, her character, the concept of a relationship with her in general - all of it felt like it was just done as a plot-twist rather than being an actual connection for them. That's why I said your words came across as tone-deaf - because it felt like you're focusing more on what was said ("more options please") rather than WHY it was said ("the option(s) we got sucked"). I don't know if (re)stating facts and statistics will make a more focused proposal in that regard if you're not getting the reason why these things were facts to begin with. Now, in the case of expansions, I point out that very rarely do they ever amount to a full re-write or re-make of the game rather than just sticking a chunk of extra story between the same exact start and same exact end. Nor is it entirely unusual for an expansion to the last game to be the next game of the series in and of itself, if one feels the need for such - hell, that's what Mask of Arcadius was to First Arrival; an expansion pack unto the base game. It depends on what's best for the game's story as much as if it's better to just build on what's there rather than start over again, or if there's anything you feel you can still do with the assets or setting of that last entry before you move to the next. In conjunction with that... please don't take this the wrong way, but I think that making a case or justifying what was written before is basically one of the key things a follow-up in a series is supposed to do. If it can't validate what came before, or if what came before can't function as the foundation for the next one, the series will fall apart - the future is built on the events of the past, meaning you literally can't progress to the former without going through the latter and understanding as much of it as you can. Again, I admit that these are based on personal views - I admit that it may be that I just do not know personally how the series could progress without either an expansion unto the old one or a ton of backtrack/flashbacks in the new one - but they're views I based on going through both the game, the communities and what I know of storytelling from other mediums. I want this series to improve, but I think the only way to do that is to base critique of what comes next off of what we know that follow-up will be built on, hence why I think a lot of people haven't let this go even a year afterword.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 13, 2017 22:36:06 GMT -8
Its not a popular personal opinion but as I have previously mentioned in the Steam community forum for Liberation Day around character choices: Romance Choices
Not every visual novel is going to be focused around this and LD feels to me more like a narrative VN in which it is not ready to branch out. If you have an on going series and include character branches in every edition you can end up with a distorted story line as for each character route you then have to do another sub branch to the common route before branching off again (what if the player chooses Asaga in one game but then wants Sola in the next one for example? These variables start multiplying rather quickly) or you would have to write several visual novels in one (sort of like what Labyrinth of Grisaia does with its character arcs/main arc) which was not how Sunrider was designed. This is not saying it is impossible or cannot be done but rather it was not done in this occurrence. This is why I would see it being more realistic to expect a main story's conclusion having those character routes if included, that way you have the intended story at the heart but then there are multiple ways in which that conclusion can be told. Generally I'm not really sure why people bash Chigara as hard as they do, I can understand the frustrations but the trend appears to be more 'because I did not choose it' above all else. Going by the 2.00 content you can already see the branch in regards to Chigara with the label 'chigaradidntbetray' which shows two possible personalities for Kayto: - (A) Where he continues to believe in Chigara and wants to reunite with her. - (B) Where he no longer trusts Chigara and rejects the comfort of his relationship with her. A true forced romance would leave the story in line with a fixed logic '(A)' where the player left in a position where they can no longer consider other crew members as active candidates. If anything the current ending is very much a 'anything could happen from here' scenario which for me leaves me optimistic with what the series could do next. Anyway I won't stir this up any further, in regards to Liberation Day we have been monitoring feedback and we will be taking this into account with our future projects. Thanks for your continued support and enthusiasm. I suppose it's my turn to revive the old thread, now that the series has been effectively put on the backburner for Shining Nova. Also, on a more personal note, I figure anyone else looking at these relative fossils, as Rellek did, may as well get a contrasting opinion as well... even though I think plainguy summed things up pretty well XD Word of warning though; I don't consider myself too eloquent a speaker - detailed, perhaps, but not delicate. I'm well aware people get thoroughly sick of how much I talk. Even more recently, upon being diagnosed with Obsessive-Compulsive Syndrome/OCD, I learned that a lot of how I write is... well, in a word, tone-deaf, in that I tend to speak so bluntly that it often looks like I'm browbeating others. So I'm sorry in advance if I end up ticking anyone off - one of which will most likely be Magpie, since his arguments are the ones I'm directly referencing and arguing against to make a case off of ^^; == Character Relationships == Anyway, building off of what plainguy said, the biggest issue with trying to compare LD with other non-optional romance games is the fact that many of these games have one of two distinct advantages; they're stand-alone self-contained stories within a single installment that offer definitive conclusion in one single package, or they're purely story-driven series that simply never show any such romantic resolution and leaves it up to the player's imagination what happens after the end. The big reason why trying to compare Sunrider to these other VN's as a justification fails is because Sunrider is BOTH a series and a confirmed romance story; the luxury of just forcing an outcome is simply not there - you have to flesh it out better. In that regard, the path taken taken by games like Majikoi to Majikoi S or (to a lesser extent) Grisaia no Kaijitsu to Grisaia no Meiykuu is this; don't have every single choice or path be in one single game - have one set of routes in one game, than another set of routs plus after-stories for the first set in the last game. However, I list this last one as optional because it basically revolves there being just two games - three at max, if said final game was just all concluding bits as opposed to starting any new romances - so this system could only be implemented if Sunrider was in it's final stretch. Point being that it's not really as much of an issue to do, so long as you take the time to think out how you want it to work. Another issue I have in the argument Magpie presents... is that it feels somewhat contradicting. Because honestly speaking, accommodating choices like this was exactly how Sunrider was supposed to be designed - in large part because choices like this do not really necessitate an entire rewrite of the script to accommodate it. The best example I can think to bring up is the Mass Effect series, in which the choice of who you had a relationship with did jack-all to impact or change the main plot and yet this was not seen as detrimental for either the story or the romances by the players. Whether or not you choose one girl over the other does not mean the entire game needs to be rewritten to accommodate it - practically every single RPG with a romance choice in it could and would not exist if that were the case. Saying it could not be done in this occurrence doesn't feel accurate to say, because it ignores the fact that the character's love-life and the main plot can - and arguably should, for more story-driven experiences - exist as two separate entities, one being interchangeable while the other isn't. And again, this is without the aforementioned premises of not having every romance option be in the same game at once, which would be more realistic in that some human might be more open to a relationship sooner than others - and in turn that others who could have/would have been open to one in the past are no longer ready and willing to do so later on. Additionally, there are games like Persona 4 - specifically the Golden Edition - in which when the main character gets with a girl... it doesn't mean their bond can or must become a relationship. This, in turn, is the crux of my argument and possibly the biggest issue I and many others have with Magpie's views on this; specifically that spending time being close to a girl and building a relationship in the game does not mean it has to become definitively romantic right than and there, nor that they absolutely must be locked in at that exact point. For example; say we do choose Asaga in one game to be with - does it HAVE to become romantic and/or a commitment than and there? Would't just leaving the implication of possible feelings be enough - if nothing else, wouldn't it be a better option than effectively destroying the girl's characterization in a throwaway-scripted romance. Magpie's argument feels like it revolves around it being one extreme or the other - that giving the option to pick a girl at any point automatically means that choice must always be the level of a commitment. In Persona 4 & 5 (and maybe the others - I wouldn't know, since 4-5 are the only ones I've gone through XD), you could go through almost the entire relationship chain and form a close bond with them, but it didn't have to become boyfriend/girlfriend until the very end of the respective stories their chains were telling. So in turn... why couldn't Sunrider do the same? If it was such an issue to try and have so many options, why not just keep everything ambiguous until the very end? In that context, saying "it is not ready to branch out"... well, honestly, it doesn't feel like it sticks because it ignores the simple option of just not having any romance take place at this juncture. Rather than railroad it down one certain path, it could have just been kept ambiguous, or made a platonic bond that may or may not have been turning into love up until Chigara's "death" - that way, it would have been far easier for the player/Kayto to pursue or turn away from anything with Chigara without it feeling so comparatively forced in either instance. It also would have made it more gratifying to the player and any pro-Chigara players to pursue, in my personal opinion. == Chigara's Relationship == In my mind, the fact that the relationship with Chigara was forced/that it wasn't an optional choice caused so much issue... is not because it was the only path to take. Rather, it is because said single path was, in my opinion at least, very poorly executed. As Magpie himself has done in the past, compare what happens in Liberation Day to Princess Evangile; another game in which the character gets into a pre-determined romance before branching out into whether or not they stay in/commit to that, or kindle/rekindle a love with the other characters. Unlike Sunrider, Princess Evangile, line with what I mentioned above, has the advantage of being a single self-contained game - the complete story and conclusion are all there in one package, so it doesn't feel like player agency is being reduced to stretch things out. But what truly separates the two is that, unlike Sunrider, Princess Evangile took it's time with the scripted romance - we were given a clear-cut build to how they got so close, and than how they felt their way through to a relationship that is both a first for them and muddied by uncertainties. By contrast, Sunrider feels like it completely skips through the second half - the first part (the setup for closeness) was done in MoA in how Chigara was the only girl going straight to the Captain out of concern for him and his problems, while the rest got so used to relying on him going to them and solving their problems. However, LD feels like it fails to pick up on this, because the relationship in no way feels natural - they kiss, they get sappy, they sleep together, she's a spy, the end. It doesn't feel like an actual relationship - it feels like a caricature of one, to the point that some people actually call it degrading to the characters. Adding to that, I also have a bit of an issue in Magpie's simplification of the Chigara issue - specifically that I don't see how or why he does or doesn't believe in Chigara anymore would, let alone should, equate to why he should or shouldn't love her. Does there have to be such a distinction? Are you telling me that after the whole spiel about family and trust that he has with the rest of the Sunrider crew, Kayto unquestioningly has to still love Chigara to believe in her and want to save her? Are you telling me that after illustrating he'd do anything to protect his crew, even at great cost to himself, Kayto unquestioningly cannot still love Chigara to not trust her and see her as too big a danger? Can't he have faith in her without being head-over-heels for her, or be wary of ever even if does have deep-reaching feelings for her? How does whether or not Kayto does or doesn't trust her require him to love her or not? In turn, arguing a "true forced romance" feels moot - if there is no choice in the matter but to go down that route, it is forced; whether or not you can choose how it ends does not in any way change the fact that it happens. Even just saying feels disingenuous towards Chigara as a character - like she and her feelings can/should be just written off like they never happened if you decide against continuing a relationship, and makes what happened in LD feel even more shallow an affair by comparison and contrast. It really does not translate into an "anything can happen from here" scenario, because by all rights, NOTHING should realistically be able to happen since most people would not feel comfortable about getting into a relationship with someone who can just shrug all that off like it's nothing - and on the opposite end, anyone recovering from the fallout of what Kayto went though likewise realistically shouldn't feel like they even deserve to pursue a new romance, let alone like they can. Like plainguy said, any romance after this would have to carry the shadow and baggage of what happened there - and because of how badly the Chigara romance seemed to be executed, that's not something a lot of people feel optimistic about. In my personal opinion, a lot of this could have fixed if if LD had simply devoted more time to developing the relationship - if you're going through a scripted relationship as part of the "common route", than, as Princess Evangile illustrated so well, you cannot simply toss it in or rush through it; you've got to take your time with it as much as you would any of the actual branched routes. If it hadn't skipped through the process of them getting used to having a relationship together, the scripted romance would have worked. If it had bothered to show them having doubts to work through or reassuring each-other of whether or not they were going too fast, the relationship it would have worked. If there were points to show them acknowledging how their uncertainties and anxieties were making them punch-drunk at times (Kayto giving an inner monologe of 'is she serious?!' or 'I laugh and smile because I don't know what else to say/don't want to hurt her feelings' when Chigara suggests marriage and kids after just a month of dating), the relationship would have worked. If there was an option where Chigara and Kayto addressed whether or not they were actually in love or if it was just lust and stress-relief for both of them (and in turn emphasize the saint-like characterization Chigara had by having her say she doesn't care if Kayto's using her; so long as she's helping him, she's "happy" - which is a barefaced lie on her part but just would make people feel all that much more for her), the relationship would have worked. If there was a point where Kayto's conflicting "Prince and Moralist" mindsets could have illustrated whether it's emotional love or physical need and tie into the previous elements/motif of how a cold man and good man can both make the same exact choices for different reasons, the relationship would have worked. Hell, even if there was just a choice between whether or not Kayto and Chigara have sex before the final battle or want to wait until after everything's over, the relationship would have worked - not as well as if the above were added in, but certainly better than the so-called "f*ck and chuck" treatment I've seen some people say the story gave Chigara. There are so many things that could have been done to make it work, but instead it felt like the romance was forced and rushed just for the sake of a shock-value element to the plot. In that regard, equating the reason so many people disliked the Chigara relationship as being "because I did not choose it"... well, simply put, it feels completely tone-deaf. It honestly isn't that people didn't have a choice but to take a Chigara romance that got them so mad - it's that they didn't have a choice but to take a poorly-done Chigara romance that angered them. That they weren't given any other choice is definitely a part of it, of that I have no doubt, but what honestly sunk it for so many people is the way this single forced romance played out - the biggest complaints were not that they were forced into a single romance, but rather that they were forced into an ill-executed one that made the characters feel like insensitive idiots, seemingly ignored aspects of their character-development in some cases, and did so little to get across why what happened was happening that LiS had to make [RE]Turn in an attempt to explain it away from an alternate/outside point of view - and in some cases, it only made things worse because it seemed to highlight how much even Kayto himself should have seen what was happening. So much so that some people don't think the next game can manage a work around - hell, some actually think LD should STILL be getting more work done to compensate for it; an expansion pack or the like that fits in-between leaving Hellion and arriving at Cera, that shows the two having an actual relationship. Personally, it doesn't feel hard for me to understand why Magpie said his opinion got a lot of resistance on places like the Steam form, because it feels like all the feedback for the next game wasn't actually examined if LiS doesn't understand the real reason why the last one's key romance aspect had so much flak. In conclusion, I'm sorry if this comes across like starting anything up after so long. I understand that this kind of thing is a dead horse by this point. But personally speaking, that's simply how much I and many others love Sunrider - the fact that people still have such strong feelings about it even after this long goes to show how engaging a story and setting was created by LiS. I understand if this comes across as being argumentative or the like, but at the end of the day, my running a commentary to this extent is really just because I fell in love with this series - and because of that, I feel compelled to give this kind of feedback as my own attempt to try and support it. I get not everyone will agree with me; I get others will debate against me. But my debating or arguing these views comes down to the fact that I want this series to continue and improve - and if those making it aren't able to understand their community, it will lead to the game's support falling regardless of what they do. And that, in no uncertain terms, is the last thing I want to happen. Thank you for your time.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 19, 2016 18:26:33 GMT -8
Ah I understood that from the previous posts, what I was looking for is if someone who is part of development can go into more depth into what is actually on those scrapped arcs and some reason for why they didn't use it in LD if the cause for them not showing up in MoA was time/budget constrain. I mean, that Icari subplot would work great during LD too now that PACT was on a truce with the Alliance, Icari killing a PACT commander out of revenge might spark an incident and put the truce in jeopardy (kinda the reverse situation of Versta where you are killing the diplomats on purpose to start a war), and that Claude taking over as XO would work in the beginning too by using Ava's condition after the Legion battle as an excuse for her to be absent. I dont have time to write it atm (am pretty slow on that anyway) but if you or others wanted to, I could handle the scripting. The only issue is it wouldent have VOs (not that it would bother most people on here) TBH, none of the extra content released after LibDay's original saledate (V2.00 or [RE]Turn) had VO's in it either - hell, I personally felt it was more a gimmick then a necessity - so it probably won't matter. As for writing... hell, I could give as much a shot at writing a midgame arc, or at least a base outline - I've ranted about it so many times already and truebeliever's dared people to try it, so I might as well put up what I'd have done if I were writer (and let someone tear my work apart instead). Big question though is whether or not a new thread would be needed for it(?)
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 19, 2016 12:37:27 GMT -8
Ah I understood that from the previous posts, what I was looking for is if someone who is part of development can go into more depth into what is actually on those scrapped arcs and some reason for why they didn't use it in LD if the cause for them not showing up in MoA was time/budget constrain. I mean, that Icari subplot would work great during LD too now that PACT was on a truce with the Alliance, Icari killing a PACT commander out of revenge might spark an incident and put the truce in jeopardy (kinda the reverse situation of Versta where you are killing the diplomats on purpose to start a war), and that Claude taking over as XO would work in the beginning too by using Ava's condition after the Legion battle as an excuse for her to be absent. This would be what you're looking for (top page): innomenpro.com/forums/index.php?topic=1624.15It also elaborates that they did try to salvage some of what was in the cut arcs - apparently some of Claude's stuff (I'm assuming her pushing Chigara towards going after Kayto) was inter-spliced into the beach stuff. Samu also noted that focus was placed on the Ongess arc after the other two arcs got cut to try and make up the loss.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 10, 2016 15:51:00 GMT -8
I'm not really sure why giving some missed opportunities is a confession. - I don't recall ever saying that it was flawless, I've continuously said I enjoyed it and managed to get a good number of hours out of it. I will admit I forgot about the Chigara remarks in 2.00 - whoops. - Regardless my point stands, Kayto's affection with Chigara grew from his ability to confide in her and her ability to comfort his insecurities. A quote I read a while back although off the top of my head I cannot remember where is that we look for partners who hold opposite personalities to ourselves in order to balance our own, romance can be built quite easily on a concept of insecurity or this idea of completing oneself something that I can see in this relationship in particular. It may be your opinion that it was poorly portrayed but that isn't a plot hole (I am actually curious if you know the definition at this stage considering how you are throwing it around), if anything it is a hurdle of characterisation that is hard to really put a finger on until we see the type of person Kayto becomes following the events of Liberation Day. Because you're admitting there was a LOT the series missed - and that, with things that big, it was detrimental to the story for it to get passed over like that. You're acting like all these being misses opportunities somehow makes that better - it doesn't. You're also acting like Dex doesn't have any right to be pissed about those flaws simply because nothing's flawless - that's an excuse because it doesn't overwrite the fact that "not flawless" doesn't equate to "the flaws it has aren't serious." And no, I feel your point really doesn't still stand - because the way the romance happened was far too fast paced and, ironically, too flawless; too picturesque for the circumstances it formed under. Being able to confide in someone doesn't automatically equate to a romance and sex anymore then it did for THE REST OF THE CREW - there isn't one person among that cast, not even the regulation-bound Ava, who would have done anything less. And most, if not all of the girls ALSO falls under the distinction of being a distinct opposite to Kayto - Claude is impish and horny, Asaga is hyper and up-front, Ava is stern and uncompromising, Sola is stoic and withdrawn, Kryska is diligent and unhesitant and Icari is sardonic and dishonest. The fact of the matter is that you can take any two people in the world and often find as many similarities between them as opposites - and compared to the rest of the crew, this "opposite personalities = balance" belief doesn't strike truer for Kayto and Chigara then it would with Kayto and any other girl. Finally - and this is the biggest thing, so it'll be a long one - there's the fact that even though romances can be built on such insecurities, it's not going to be to the point you don't question anything at all. For example; Kira Yamato and Flay Allistar from Mobile Suit Gundam:SEED - in that, we have a clear-cut example of the girl manipulating the guy for her own ends, and he falls for it hook-line-and-sinker without ever once realizing (not even long after things ended) that she was just using him. He does so as a source of emotional comfort to give himself some ground to stand on, but it's precisely because that's his only reason for it that he has moments of uncertainty in what he's doing, and the fact it's happening so fast is why he pulls himself back and doesn't just jump to things like marriage or the like. The fact is that relationships coming together that quickly automatically entails that one stops and thinks at least ONCE - and with ones quick enough to be called "shotgun weddings", there is at least at some point a moment where they have some self-reflection with each-other to CONFIRM this is what they want. We were never shown anything that told us this or shown any form of introspection between the two to make it seem even remotely real - it's all either pure conjecture or theories but you simply have NO PROOF, and that makes it a plot hole. Kayto saying he just wanted someone to confide in is mitigated by the fact that literally anyone and everyone else he served with could have been that person and would have listened - nothing about that scene with Chigara painted her as being someone who could do this better then anyone else; there was nothing that ever really answered the question of "why her?" What makes this a plot-hole is that we didn't see Chigara do anything that Kayto wouldn't or couldn't have expected from someone close to him as opposed to something that would breed actual love - those kind of scenes are MISSING OUTRIGHT, so it feels like one big plot hole that their romance grew to the level it did (marriage, pets, kids, living together after just a week or so past the first damn kiss) and makes it feel like it was just forced for shock-value. Hell, even just removing the marriage and kids thing, or making it so that Chigara was just joking or being wistful as opposed to being played so straight-laced, would have made it more believable. It is a logical inconsistency in the characterization of Kayto as a whole and the romance itself is pushed so fast that it in and of itself is inconsistent with how intense it is - which, as you know, such illogical elements in a narrative (things that just do not make sense and don't fit in with/are not supported by the plot or logic) are the definition of a plot hole. So again, no - it is a plot hole, and I'm not so sure your disagreeing on it has anything to do with how I portrayed it. And, once again, saying "let's wait till after LibDay" is an excuse - Kayto's character in LibDay is judicable based simply off of who he is in the past games, and his character regardless of Prince or Moralist mentality has always been quite clear; a good-natured, ernest, sociable, slightly-awkward, inexperienced young man. We have four games (five if you count [RE]Turn as a separate spin-off) detailing this, so I don't see how you could possibly claim there's not enough to know what kind of person he is. I really don't think so. A series is a set of stand-alone games - that in and of itself means they have to be able to stand on their own merits in order to both continue and/or improve on what came before and provide the set-up for what comes next, and in turn the current game sets the tone for what the dev currently thinks is acceptable. You most certainly CAN judge the whole series based on what it's next iteration has to work off of and overcome - and the tone LibDay set easily makes one anxious about just how many narrative issues you're going to have to address and that what happened there is going to just keep happening. Being a work in progress doesn't equate to it not being judicable - hell, that's actually the BEST time to judge something like a game series for a dev, because the feedback lets them know what to focus on and what not to. if that's YOUR principle, fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and stamp out anyone else's desire or attempt to do so - especially given the widespread dissatisfaction LibDay received and how [RE]Turn (a spin-off) was prioritized over fixing the main story - because giving that feedback is half the reason a community fourm even exists to begin with. No, I don't think I'm the one missing the point here - rather, you've spiraled away from it. I am not talking about fixing every little issue that some random person finds - I am talking about correcting the ONE BIG THING that was widely panned by multiple people to be the main problem with the game. Ergo - I think you're argument's a strawman, because anyone who even looked at the Steam reviews would know that if so many people say the story lacks like that, then it bears looking into. It's about fixing the thing that got the most complaints, NOT about fixing everything every time some person complains about this or that - that is completely irrelevant to the point I was making. My Point is that Samu is putting effort towards everything EXCEPT the thing people complained about - it's that he put all that work into making a spin-off instead of just making a new arc to add onto the main game, which would probably have been less intensive a project then a multi-end spin-off would have been. When you say "With [Re]Turn the line was drawn that there would be no more new main arc content dropped into the Liberation Day title" - that just feels like it's about MAKING SOME PETTY POINT (for yourself as well since IDK if that's even your call, dude) as opposed to actually fixing anything. If there's a flaw in said system and multiple people noted it, I once again repeat - I don't see why it shouldn't be noted. Especially if it's going to affect development going forward - and based on how I STILL see people talking about this even now, it seems unlikely you can just say "case closed" and expect that to be the end of it. It comes across as just shutting out feedback entirely - and that's the worst thing you can do as a dev.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 10, 2016 13:20:25 GMT -8
Yes it is a plot-hole because we DO NOT SEE Chigara "working her magic", nor did we see anything she did that could be taken beyond the level of being brother-and-sister or close friends. Moreover, if [RE]Turn is any indication, it WASN'T that Chigara was "working her magic" at all to begin with - it was that Kayto himself was just too compromised to give second thought to someone giving him comfort as 'Kayto Shields' instead of 'the Captain', since Chigara's status as a sleeper-agent meant she didn't know she was a Prototype and thus was innocent of actual duplicity on her part; her only real crime/involvement was being on the ship. It was all on Kayto - Chigara's hardly a criminal because, according to Kayto himself when slugging his past self, ANY girl pretty much would have done. Hell, [RE]Turn compounds that when he pretty much gets with another girl to forget about Chigara.
And a characterizing inconsistency IS a plot hole, Vaen, because it's a case in which a character is going against how they've been portrayed up to this point with no real indication showing why or how. The absence of that knowledge or interaction makes any inconsistent characterizing that comes of it a plot hole.
His point is that it's that it's not even a situation where you can call it a "Chekov's Gun" - this is the first time we even knew assault drones of that class and destructive power even existed until Chigara unleashed them. Maybe if there's been a scene were we knew before hand that security drones like that existed before seeing them here, it would have been more understandable to see them and easier to connect-the-dots as to Chigara turning them against everyone, but as is it comes straight out of left-field and most people end up assuming she brought the damn things with her.
And in actuality, hacking would be the only explanation - none of the others fit since they're more hassle then just hijacking present drones or Alice in Chigara's body didn't have the time to do it between the end of the battle and the Massacre with Kayto around; being smart doesn't mean anything if you just don't have the opportunity to do anything with it. But again, see above for why most people don't instantly think 'she hacked security' - it looks a plot-hole unless you read between the lines way more then you should have to for a scene as straightforward as this.
Vaen, the entire concept that she is more loyal to the Alliance then Kayto DOES still make it betrayal if she's picking a side between the two. If you have obligations to a side and you forsake them for ones to another side, that is betrayal of whoever you turned against - degree or length of commitment is semantical best and inconsequential at worst to that. Moreover, if Kryska's actions are any indication, she WASN'T going to arrest Kayto - she was going to straight-up kill him, no questions asked, in spite of everything they went though; no benefit of a doubt or even asking Kayto if what the Alliance Brass (or what's left of it) said about him was true or not, if only to hear his own words on the matter for some form of personal closure.
The issue is that Gray pretty much WAS the Alliance military at this point - we've not seen anyone else who knows what the hell's going on or what to do aside from him. Pretty much the entire chain of command was done in at once - do you really think any command system, no matter how efficient or organized, is going to recover THAT quickly, let alone be able to make competent command decisions under the circumstances they were in at Cera even if they did manage to get some form of command chain back up? And the only reason Kryska stopped with Kayto was because SHE GOT STOPPED FIRST, by Icari and her bomb, and it wasn't till she was on the ground and pretty much outnumbered (Kayto and Ava likely had arms to draw at this point to, regardless of whether or not they'd actually shoot), so it's not like there was any way she could complete her mission anyway. Her not wanting to do it in the first place was just the final blow.
That's the thing, though - they DON'T NEED TO; at this point they just need to protect the flagship until it fire the Paradox Core Warhead and all their problems will be gone anyway (it's not like they wouldn't have scapegoated and publicly executed Kayto for what happened either way, after all). Plus, your theory kinda works against you - if the Sunrider's just free-floating towards the flagship instead of charging full power at it, it's MORE likely the Alliance is going to know what's happening. And since that ship holds the key to their victory over both PACT and the Sunrider, as well as quite possibly being where whatever remnants of the local command chain are holed up, you'd think defending both your insta-win weapon and your last few commanding officers would take precedence in a situation like that. You'd want a good chunk of your ships guarding it either way - hell, it would make more sense for the Alliance fleet to just turtle up and not bother fighting PACT as opposed to getting as far away from the assumedly-doomed Cera as possible.
All in all, couple that with the issues they had even driving the ship with Chigara gone and it makes it very hard to believe the Sunrider could have lasted long enough to make it to the Alliance flagship - or at least make it in an intact-enough state for it to ram the ship and actually sink it.
Actually, it is made pretty clear. The ship spent a month in drydock according to Kayto's interactions with Chigara and the crew between the continuation of the Helion Battle and the attack in the ion storm. We can then assume only a week or two for the side-missions and a few days for Cera itself. That doesn't seem like enough time to even copy a device that complex, let alone build it and ensure it'll even work and be confident enough in it's power to consider it a working deterrent. Moreover, that's another big issue - plot holes come from a lack of information or corresponding in-game events, so if you're skipping over whole events like that it's going to have consequences. Hell, the biggest issue in the Chigara romance is the absolute lack of proper build-up and true romantic-springboard moments it has to make it believable - forget even the battles; there were story-elements that'd could have been filled in that span instead.
Back to the point though - yeah, six or seven weeks most likely from what I can figure. Eight at the most. Not really enough time to do anything with just blueprints, especially considering the level of intelligence the Prototypes and the people of Diode who made the thing had - they would have needed to been actually taking parts off the Paradox Core itself and pouring it all into just making one single warhead and no others, which would be resource mismanagement at best if that's what the only such components of their kind in the galaxy were used all at once for. There is not enough explained on this, so it feels like a plot-hole - the only way to dispel a plot-hole is pointing out actual, factual things in the narrative where it definitely did or didn't happen, and I'm not seeing a whole lot of that.
WHERE? There was only ever one scene that even remotely hinted to it, and it pointed to it being the result of Asaga having an outright inherent split personality as opposed to the Awakenings - it pointed to the Sharr influencing her through the Awakenings, not the other way around. Hell, it wasn't even until [RE]Turn that we learned that Asaga going through the Awakenings too rapidly without time to adjust was eroding her sanity as opposed to her keeping a separate entity in her head in check. It would make sense if we'd had Sola narrating that kind of thing or giving more direct forewarnings to Asaga that she just ignored, but what we got just wasn't enough.
The thing is, though, that there's a difference between distrusting someone that close because of jealousy and wanting to outright cripple them. And Asaga knew Chigara far longer then she ever knew Kayto, yet there wasn't even the benefit of a doubt or a moment's hesitation. That's not a matter of loyalty - that's an outright lack of common sense or empathy or any sort of evidence that they were best friends to begin with. That's not even talking about how Chigara reacted so bitterly, showing a sudden distrust and jadedness of Asaga that we never even saw any hint to - we didn't see any trace of Chigara being scared of Asaga over how ruthless the latter was becoming up to this point. It wasn't portrayed as a rending of a friendship - it was portrayed as just two comrades disliking each-other. It was not... for lack of a better word, personal or personable enough for the situation.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 10, 2016 12:13:33 GMT -8
From how I am reading feedback posts they are not plot holes, just people wanting more details or something happened that was not to their liking/own image of the Sunrider universe. I mean lets give some of these a go: I could argue that the inclusion of Icaris arc as discussed before would have been really important in the fight against Legion.This is at best a missed opportunity if I am understanding the point correctly. Cosette being captured and done nothing with, is an incredibly bad choise that affected this game and will affect the next one as she was invisible for the whole gameThat is just a missed opportunity. Falling in love with Chigara. My Kayto would have never done that. And now in the next game this will have to be a consideration, because a death of such a character cannot be pushed away. Lib Day will impede the upcoming stories just because of the existance of that forced romance which shouldnt have even been there. It will always stick out as a sore thumb if you did not want to pursue Chigara in any way'My' is a preference, that and I do not get why people are hung up on this? If we do the A -> B approach at the end of Liberation Day the romance is dead as it were as for Kayto as he believes she has been killed off. It is not like he was castrated in the progress, he can still pursue relationships with other characters or if she does make another appearance he could have moved on as no doubt the events of 2.00 are going to slow things down a bit. And revising previous parts of stories is not good. You said it yourself, next games should be focused on. But because of the bad quality of thus one, the next game would have to fix it. Where instead the focus would be on continuation, the focus will be divided on continuation and somehow explaining the events of Lib Day well enough.I did not say revise, I said to revisit - to build on (not to fix as I can't see anything that is broken). A new Sunrider game that focuses on nothing but Liberation Day that would be revising, having a game that continues the story line but may reveal say additional conversations or events during Liberation Day that would be expanding. Now that all that is out of the way you should all really accept Claudekorion as your God Empress. For the betterment of all Waifu kind. She is not a Sith Lord (or whatever he was called in Knights of the Old Republic) Cheese. That immediately removes several points from her application of 'God Empress' title. 1. His point was that it was a missed opportunity because of what he feels was a bad development move - which was putting so much time and so many resources into the beach episode that it affected how much more story there'd be. Also that the revenge tale Icari's arc would have centered on would have been a good precursor to Kayto's own dilemma with the Legion and have broken down Icari's walls for her to be as friendly and open to Kryska as she was by LibDay. 2. All the talk about Cosette in MoA and all the information she could have been grilled for in LibDay and all the things she could have known - pirate black markets, hidden trade routes to bypass PACT fleets, ect - and Kayto doesn't even talk with her so much as once? Every other person they've taken prisoner (namely Icari and Lynn), they at least questioned ONCE, so just up and forgetting about her feels out-of-character for just about everyone on the ship, especially given the grudges that Ava, Asaga, Kryska, Icari and even Kayto must have with her. 3. It's because of how poorly the Chigara romance was executed - the jump-in point you used was a scene where Chigara is simply returning the favor of being an emotional support for Kayto the way he has been for everyone else; a scene that is more platonic then it is actively romantic. We never saw any scene that actually cemented a starting point for the romance, and the pace was taken too far and too fast without any real focus on what Kayto or Chigara's mindsets were or why the felt the need to rush things, so - shock of all shocks - it felt rushed and they felt severely out of character for the both of them. Also - no. No, Kayto doesn't. In V2.00, he rather clearly remarks that he thinks Chigara must have saved him by taking Lynn over - he even tells the rest of the crew he thinks Chigara, at least as far as her mind, isn't dead. And your take on it, Magpie; that's like saying someone shouldn't complain about being shot just because they survived it - it doesn't gel. How many times must we say that the fact the romance got ended DOES NOT IN ANY WAY impact that the romance itself was poorly handled and poorly portrayed? How many times must we say that the way it even happened was so jarring and bad that it actually makes it an even bigger plot-hole that any of the girls would be so eager to get in a relationship, to say nothing of the fact that the average man wouldn't want to even go near another girl for a long time - it would be HARDER to believe he could get into another relationship, or that, if he did, it's be as contrived and poorly done as this one was. When it comes to romances, you want them to feel natural - the WORST thing you can do is force it for plot reasons because that is so much harder to pull off, especially if you're rushing things. Even [RE]Turn had to have story stuff detracted from to have Kayto explain doubts about his relationship - and even then it didn't fix anything because it was Kayto speaking from past-tense rather then having those doubts in the present. There just wasn't enough to the romance to justify Kayto getting involved to that degree - or at least nothing that was ever shown. 4. The issue with that though is that, if [RE]Turn is any indication, Samu DOESN'T want to do anything that actually does that for the main story. [RE]Turn could have done a better job being some kind of side-story that explains each character's feelings during it - again, more effort was put into elsworld ideas then toward something that properly dealt with the criticisms. And the point of Dex's argument is that, if you have to devote an ENTIRE GAME towards fixing the narrative of the last one instead of just doing it in the last one itself, how exactly is that 'going forward' when the past entry is still dictating what you have to do to fix it? And look back at this, Magpie - do you not see the issue here with just how many of these big things you're confessing are missed opportunities, to say nothing of how you call them that as if that's any better?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 10, 2016 11:48:37 GMT -8
Okay lets have a small timeout. When one user makes it personal it sets a standard for others that they also can also be personal, this is not something we want to see occurring so that is why the line is been drawn. This is not trying to say 'you can't have this opinion because we do not agree' but rather 'we understand what you are saying but can you tone it down'. Also please don't argue with warnings, if you have genuine concerns then PM the moderator or admin that said it and we can discuss it otherwise just leave it be and focus on your next point. Right: Now I was late to the party and only started testing LD through version 11+ so I was only really interested in making it stable but I think what has happened is that as all feedback was like mine and focusing on the technical which meant it was perceived that people were happy with the product moving forward. With any project the further you are into the milestones the harder it becomes to change something (either due to time, resourcing or quality) which is why it is during these early days that questioning and suggesting are oh so important. I think that this has been a lesson for all of us (including staff) that we can improve both on the feedback mechanics as well as getting more involved with community questions and thought processes, something that will no doubt make Starnova and new entries to Sunrider better games overall now that we have more hands about. Just going to touch on one more thing which was Sharr's point of 'with extra content, be it post-fixes or a "Remastered Edition"... maybe. but Samu - along with some of his stronger supporters like Vaen and Magpie - seem to argue against it on the belief that adding mid-game content would alter the narrative going forward...': I am not against more mid game content (especially as I love VN fluff) but I don't think continuous patching is the answer to Sunrider, I would much rather just see the resources go into the development of the next game (allowing it to be a stronger entry) and then worse come to it further down the line talk about 'Remasters' or 'Additional Content' when we know the full main story of the author's image. I can't claim to know what Samu wants to do with the series but I will keep listening and offering my feedback where I can but at the end of the day they are his decisions to make. This again, Magpie? Really, I think it doesn't really matter how they say it or even if it's personal - what matters is weather or not what they're saying has any truth to it. Judging it on anything else is bias. Yeah, politeness is nice and all, but that in and of itself doesn't solve debates. With the kickstarter thing, none of that affects the fact that Samu could have simply done it differently instead of needing to scrap stuff - there's a difference between including a milestone and being so inclusive of it that you have to cut stuff out. Milestones like that feel like they'd be better off as easter-eggs or short bonuses rather then something you devote more effort to then your story. Besides, how does this fit into your "let's never fully judge anything till it's complete" belief you keep toting (including in the very next sentence)? Can't have it both ways, dude - either they have a say in it or they don't till the series is done; which is it? And once again - if every single effort towards that game is directed to everything EXCEPT fixing what people had issue with, I don't see why it shouldn't be noted. Also, the fact that [RE]Turn itself even exists is proof that the effort and writing was there - it just wasn't applied to the actual source of the problem; the main story. It's not 'continuous patching' I'm after - it's ONE SINGLE PATCH that actually addresses the main story problems without having to have the next game's narrative potentially compromised to solve it instead via backtracks or the like. Plus, again, you have to keep in mind someone being the story's author and them always making the right decisions are two different things.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 10, 2016 0:11:32 GMT -8
[...] This is one of the biggest, fcking problems with kickstarter. Simply idiotic promises made by the creators, who then cant do it because of budget! Dont promise what you cant do! The backers won and the game was gutted? Bend over backwards to make some backers happy and ruin the game again? ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS! It was HIS fault noone elses that situation arose in the first fcking place and then he blames the backers, the guys who gave him money! What the hell is wrong with this arrogant prick! YOU made the promise for fck sakes!The more i read about him the more respect i lose to him not only as a writter, but as a human being.[...] You're entitled to your opinions but making it personal means you're out of line. I believe Magpie has warned you before so consider this your last warning. Make your case without lowering yourself to this level, please. He may have worded it strongly, but what does that matter for his case - which was that he feels Samu made missteps in the execution of the kickstarter goals in relation to the game? Furthermore, as this exact quote illustrates, Dex is arguing this (overdone promises and a "promising beyond their capability to do" pattern) as a general fault of ALL KICKSTARTERS that is repetitive to the point of it feeling stupid to see, not just Sunrider's - so how exactly is that part of his statement "making it personal"? The only things he said that crossed the lines are the last few words of it all (which I've underlined), so shouldn't those be the only ones you needed to quote? The rest of it is blunt, yes, but it does it really go that far?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 9, 2016 20:57:50 GMT -8
I know that the case of "Writting on demand" was made, however what i meant, is to ask people, especiallymodders to help with other aspects. Yandere sim is a game that is still being created, Yandre-dev (The creator) has a team of volunteers working with him, creating asssets and doing simmilar things. He knows he cant do it alone. The writter should have then asked for help from others or other talented people to help with combat, maybe art, or sound design, or even possibly creatingscenes (Not the dialog or story, but the visual representations of scenes). If there really was not enough time, he as a writter should have focused on writting and expanding the story. And cut arcs, i just found the quote.... Mask of Arcadius was a developmental mess because we ran out of money and had to cut half the planned content. Either we had to cut around 3-4 hours of content revolving around Claude and Icari's stories, or cut the beach episode. As you can see, the backers won and the game was gutted, but hey, we lived up to our Kickstarter promise of a beach episode. As a director though, making that cut for a beach episode was damning, so I'm not going to bend over backwards to make some backers happy and ruin the game again.This is one of the biggest, fcking problems with kickstarter. Simply idiotic promises made by the creators, who then cant do it because of budget! Dont promise what you cant do! The backers won and the game was gutted? Bend over backwards to make some backers happy and ruin the game again? ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS! It was HIS fault noone elses that situation arose in the first fcking place and then he blames the backers, the guys who gave him money! What the hell is wrong with this arrogant prick! YOU made the promise for fck sakes! The more i read about him the more respect i lose to him not only as a writter, but as a human being. And adding mid game content would not alter anything, it would improve everything. More content is ALWAYS better. What if you had the cut out icari arc? How would it change the narrative besides improving it? What if we had actual interactions with cossete in Lib day? The story can only be made better, and the combat to be as good as it will be when its rfully improved from the first game would be good too. Again, Divinity original sin, was a game, a good game that was kickstarted a few years back. It was an above average game. And then the remastered edition came and blew the old one of of the water as the remastered edition improved EVERYTHING across the board and made the game a lot better than it ever was before. The only reason i see for not making a remastered version, is lazyness. The same that we can perceive in all of the three games, especially with the story. Now i know that this seems not right to those who like him, but seriously. What other actuall explanations are there? I can get that part. For the record, I'm pretty sure vaendryl is the one who coded and designed a lot of the battle scenes. IDK who else is on staff, though, besides those two. Not gonna ask - not sure if I'm on good enough terms with him. Well, on the kickstarter thing... to be fair, I don't remember anyone saying the obligatory beach episode had to be all that big, let alone be the entire prologue to MoA as a "shore leave" mini-arc. I'm sure a scene much shorter then that could have sufficed, especially if it meant keeping two story arcs - it's rotten for me to say it, I know, but I'm not sure why "gut two whole arcs and four hours max of story content" was chosen instead of "clip down the beach scene down into just a fun and very short fanservice-bonus." I think Samu could have had his cake and ate it, too - the issue was that he went an extra mile on the beach episode because he felt obliged to make it as good as possible for those who wanted it, even though they probably would have been satisfied with just a short fanservice bit. It's just personal opinion granted, but I think it's more how he executed the fulfillment of his kickstarter goals rather then them being too unwieldy - I feel he meant well, but it bit him all the same. Yeah, that's what tends to be the reason DLC is so popular among fan and dev alike - it adds to the story, but you don't have to alter or restructure the whole narrative of the game to add it. Hell, we know he's willing to add work - [RE]Turn proved that. At the same time though, it's like he doesn't want to do that for the main story even though creating a spin-off to add extra context isn't going to change the fact that the main story is lacking; why not put all that effort into lengthening and improving the thing everybody said was the weak point? I don't want to be rude, but... maybe it ties back into the kickstarter thing? Maybe he thinks that if he goes and does what people demand over what he has next in line for the plot, it's gonna take away from his vision and make him sacrifice his own story just for appeasement? Yeah, you can argue he may or may not be guilty of mishandling the execution on said fulfillment of fan wants (regardless of if that's true or not), but at least it'd be more understandable why he'd be hesitant to rely 100% on fan-feedback.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 9, 2016 18:12:45 GMT -8
Aye Sharry, i understood the point. That is why i said, 2 months would be enough, of course if during those months the main focus would be the story. There was really, enough time, to do everything the game set out to do. The only way, there could have been time constraints is either lazyness or shitty time managementt. And if you have a VN as your game, you NEVER prioritize any other things than wrritting and story, NEVER. The main atttraction of VN's is the story and writting. Even with the TBS bits, this is a VN. And i never said there should be a second writter. What i have said is that the current should be fired as he obiviously cannot do his job, and a new one hired. To add on to this. If you KNOW you wont have enough time to do everything, why not hire some actuall help or even ask for some community input, especially from talented modders. And if those two things were REALLY cut out from the game, whatever respect i had to the writter, just vanished. Are you goddamn serious. Such important things were cut out! What the actuall hell! The further we go, the further i think that this whole series simply has to be rehashed. What i mean, it should receive something of a remastered version, even if it will be have to be paid for. Despite both 2 games being good, their stories were also weak in places, not even talkingabout Lib Day. And combat feels a bit ddisjointed since it is constantly changing and improving. Thus at least in my honest opinion, all the current iterations and any follow ups (That may end up like Lib Day) should be remastered into a better version, with vastly expanded dialogs, scenes, music, combat, upgrades and choises that actually matter. I guess that comes down to that whole confidence/arrogance thing - he obviously felt what he had was acceptable to him, or else he'd have just pushed back the release date. Of course, he might have driven himself into a corner by releasing so much promotional stuff for it that, by the time all was said and done, he couldn't push it back even if he HAD wanted to. Or, alternatively, he really did think it was fine as is. Now, the thing with the writer business is that, last I checked Samu himself IS the writer and has been for all the games. Don't know if he can really fire himself from that, but maybe getting a new one would free him up somewhat? As for community help, Magpie and a few others made a case (or at least tried to) about how they thought "writing based on demand" or the like would mean creating a game that was written more by fans then by Samu himself, or something along those lines - You'd have to ask one of them. As for the stuff about the cut arcs... yeah, I'm serious about that. There's even a statement from Samu himself admitting this on the old fourms, with details about what the respective arcs would have focused on being mentioned latter on (Though IDK if it was on the same page) - innomenpro.com/forums/index.php?topic=1262.120 With extra content, be it post-fixes or a "Remastered Edition"... maybe. but Samu - along with some of his stronger supporters like Vaen and Magpie - seem to argue against it on the belief that adding mid-game content would alter the narrative going forward... even though I really think that kind of thing is easily correctable since the whole point of extra/DLC mid-game content in general is to NOT alter the narrative but simply expand and reinforce it, perhaps by adding some extra contexts to things. Would an arc that actually makes the Chigara relationship likable be that bad - especially since the one character who was never properly addressed or expanded upon in either LibDay or even [RE]Turn was Chigara herself? Hell, when Samu made the addition of [RE]Turn to the game, he had it re-titled "Captain's Edition" as if to hammer in the point that he probably considers [RE]Turn to be said remaster - though that might just be my own salt on it, so if anyone knows differently I'd like to know.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 9, 2016 15:30:07 GMT -8
Hmmm. I think Dukat Von Shumer summarized by position rather well. His point 2 is difficult to fix without a complete rewrite, though ; now, REturn started to suggest between the lines something close to mind-control to (possibly) explain it, but it seems like a cop-out. I also agree with him that the original ending (as in, the last flight of the Sunrider) wasn't an actual problem with me. In fact, this maybe was the mission where finally, the emotional state matched Kayto's quite well. The new ending isn't bad at all either, with maybe the exception of "Claude is God" thing. I'm sure it was more discussed elsewhere, but I think that part causes more problems than it solves, and it's a narrative landmine. In all honesty, it seems like the opposite - even Kayto admitted that it was his own desperation for compassion more then anything, as opposed to mind-control. In [RE]Turn, he's basically doing to Chigara what he did to anyone else before - treating her as an enemy even when he knows she's really not (old habits die hard I guess). Plus, I'm not sure it calls for a whole rewrite on the Chigara thing - just the choice to tone it down a bit from the 11 it was taken to.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 9, 2016 11:45:26 GMT -8
It would seem that rather than budget, time was much more of a constraint - or more specifically, Sam's time was very limited. If he didn't have to spend so much time dealing with the voicing, creating and balancing battles and all the other things taking away his time as a director, his time as a writer would've surely been much increased. Still, as I understand it this was a conscious decision as Sam has mentioned before that he had the impression that people were overall more interested in the battles than 'slice of space-life' moments so that's what he spent more of his time on. Buuuuuuullshit! He had over a year to do this. J.K Rowling wrote some of her Harry Potter books in one year. I have seen great quality fanfictions with over 300k words written in the span of one year. Unless he had a week to write the story i call bullshit on time limitations. Even a month of dedicating to writting and scene creating would result in a better and more fleshed out story, and with two, you could create something really great. This is not a resource intensive project, it is a TBS paired with a VN. Both are one of the easiest genres to actually make, especially in a short time span. And they can easily be polished into high quality games with enough talent and care. To add more to that, voiceacting was unnecesarry! There was no need for it! This is not a AAA game, even some AAA games dont have voiceacting and they turn out simply great! If resources have to be taken away from things that matter to make useless voiceacting real, its simply not resource efffective and stupid from a game standpoint. The strenght of indie games, is that they explore deep stories, have interesting ideas, gameplay and stories. They are not needed to be on highest quality, al that matters is are they good in other aspects. To conclude, again. Even if he had 1 or 2 months for writting, it should have been more than enough to create a good, full of content story, with actual progression, exposition, rising action and not a shit climax. And yes, while people were interested in battles. It didnt mean that it has to result in a story downgrade, because story , the world and the setting were the most important parts! You could have this as a simple VN and it still would be good, not as good as with combat, but still good enough. (Althugh in Lib Day, without combat, Lib Day would be utter crap) . Combat is what help this VN to stand out, but it is not the main goddamn part of the game. It just sounds like the stupid logic used by COD. Who cares if our story is nonsensical and basically even more stupid than what michael bay does, look at our graphics and gun play!! It is rushed and lazy writting, and i dont thinkk time constraints had anything to do with it. Unless all he had to write a story was one week, but then thats an issue of time management. I think Vaen's point was that Samu simply didn't focus that time into the writing the way J.K. Rowling did with Harry Potter, as opposed to him just not having the available time... though that could just as easily lead to accusations of Samu being guilty of time *mismanagement*, TBH. Samu also focused quite a lot more on promotional stuff then he did the last two games, so that probably consumed more time as well - or in short, I guess this is what you meant when you said there should have been a second writer so that Samu could have had a bit more freedom for his own time, no? Personally speaking, it also seems like Samu gives conflicting statements nowadays - one moment he says he did LibDay "true to his original vision", even though the last minute he remarks on how he made a bunch of additions to it (mainly fanservice) because he felt that was what the market was more geared towards. Another moment he'll talk about how he didn't want to drastically alter the story he had in mind with too much extra, yet will admit to having cut out entire arcs as far back as MoA, in which two whole arcs were cut both from time-constraints and, if I recall correctly, from putting a bunch of money into the beach-prologue. One arc was with with Claude as temporary XO to explore her personality under duress, and the other was about Icari dealing with her family's murderer to explore both her full story and give Kayto a glimpse into what the cost of vengeance is - AKA, a foreshadowing for his confrontation with the Legion. Both got cut from the game, though might be re-implemented in later installments. As for the voice-acting, Samu was probably trying to become more "professional" since he'd always wanted full VO's, but I think the better way to do it would have been to do what Type-MOON did for Fate/Stay Night - which was complete and refine the story and gameplay FIRST, and THEN create a VO pack as a DLC afterword with whatever money was left-over; you know, wait until the game itself has a good story and gameplay and then polish it all up before you focus on extras/gimmicks/miscellaneous.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 9, 2016 8:53:43 GMT -8
It would seem that rather than budget, time was much more of a constraint - or more specifically, Sam's time was very limited. If he didn't have to spend so much time dealing with the voicing, creating and balancing battles and all the other things taking away his time as a director, his time as a writer would've surely been much increased. Still, as I understand it this was a conscious decision as Sam has mentioned before that he had the impression that people were overall more interested in the battles than 'slice of space-life' moments so that's what he spent more of his time on. The thing with that though is that it more feels like everyone praising the battles should have been a sign that there wasn't any need to keep improving on that - that the battle stuff was already at the level people wanted it to be - shouldn't it?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 8, 2016 15:04:29 GMT -8
I guess what I am getting out is with the split is that for me there are two main parts to a VN, you have the underlining story arc on one side and lore/characterisation on the other. LD had a story arc however I felt that there were ongoing missed opportunities to talk; politics, galactic relationships, Sunrider lifestyle etc which would have broken down the story from feeling as though event just went straight into another event giving no perspective of time. Not really sure why feedback on what I want to see in the story is prompting you to try and disprove it with this 'undo the narrative' angle (especially considering it is something I am not referencing), if anything it feels as though you keep trying to lump your opinion into mine to justify it? Well if it helps I guess for the record I can summarise for you just to confirm that I don't agree with this angle: I am perfectly happy to accept Liberation Day as an entry but would like to see more expansion done on top of the universe it has established, this for me was partially fulfilled via the narration of 2.00 however I would like to see the series go even further while not sacrificing the unique identity created by its RTS elements.For a lot of people though, that was secondary - what they primarily felt was missing was whole chunks of the story itself and large parts of character development. What you're talking about is extra stuff - that's not so much the flesh that was missing as it was the additions that would have spruced it up. LD's story arc was compressed - it tried to fit too much into too small a timeframe (only two arcs and some side-missions) when you typically need at least three arcs to properly get the start, buildup and climax done right. The Sunrider lifestyle stuff needed a longer arc/an extra arc to even implement that stuff, because the timeframes of the current arc's layouts wouldn't have been able to fit that extra stuff in the first place. That's just it - you couldn't possibly be more wrong about that. I don't want to "undo the narrative" - I want to REINFORCE IT. It's the same reason why Dex keeps arguing this - somehow, you and others don't seem to get that I'm not asking for anything to really be changed, or that the things I'm suggesting wouldn't alter the narrative in the slightest. I'm asking that what was done with [RE]Turn just get done for the main story - a new arc that would actually provide enough time to build the needed character development to make LibDay's ending not feel like a rushed mess. Also, FYI, YOU were the one that brought up the discussion you had with your own friends about what LibDay's narrative was missing - I just commented on that in turn. Again, here's the thing - THAT'S WHAT I WANT AS WELL. I just want it done for LibDay as opposed to trying to rectify or, in worst-case, retcon or overlap via backtracking and hindsight in the future games, because the missteps of LibDay are going to be continually felt throughout future entries until they're addressed. Your belief is that it should be done latter - my belief is that it should be done sooner and that [RE]Turn points to something of a misinterpretation of what the devs think their efforts to fix said story should have gone.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 8, 2016 13:13:34 GMT -8
A discussion I had with some friends a while back now came to the consensus that Liberation Day physically feels like a game that has been split in two, and that this other segment is still missing. I don't necessarily dislike the Liberation Day story nor how it is written but from what I expected it feels as though I should wait for the conclusion of the next part to establish how I feel on the post MoA arc. If I was suggest something to improve on the story based on how I felt after clearing it this would be to reconsider pacing, high playtime visual novels tend to have a main story arc progressively developing but at the same time are padded with general day to day interactions and filler that goes beyond telling a story to establishing characteristics. For me the first two parts forming MoA did a lot more of this than LD which allowed me not just to read about this universe but also feel it. (I just got a cold shiver of my A Level English Literature paper ergh ). What is done is done, Sunrider seems to be taking a short break while the next project 'Shining Song Starnova' takes the spotlight. I think the downtime itself will allow Samu to reflect on Liberation Day as well as where he wants to take the series and come back to it with a fresh perspective, if this is the case I can respect that and hope that a change of IP-scenery helps. The big issue with that is it feels like it's only HALF the truth - I think it's less that it was "split in two" and more that it feels like a game with half it's story missing. The big difference is that one of these is NOT something you can fix just by packaging it with another game, because it's issue is that there are gaps ALL ACROSS it's narrative instead of there being just one single spot to pick and tear. It's like what we have is a complete skeleton that's not fleshed out as opposed to a complete body that was halved. Ergo, I don't think that what you're saying has any bearing whatsoever on LibDay's state, because the next game isn't going to undo the narrative failure of the last - if anything it'll only highlight the start as being very much rushed and contrived. LibDay's issue was that nothing was paced as well as it should have been, and just going into another arc isn't going to undo that. At best it'll make it the rushed and ill-cooked first act of a larger game where the narrative missteps of that drive the rest of the story... which arguably isn't too good of a first stepping stone into the rest of it. ... OK, being rude here, but now it sounds like he just wants to bury what happened with LibDay in favor of pushing out a new IP. It's not going to change the fact that what doesn't get addressed now is going to dictate the course of the next game, since it'll be dependent on how you characterize things in the wake of what happened.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 8, 2016 11:40:14 GMT -8
Really don't think Sam is gonna fire himself nor do I think the writing in Libday is -that- terrible. Maybe the story isn't as great as you were hoping but I've seen far worse. You do know "I've seen far worse" doesn't make it better, right? That feels like trying to excuse it. And, all due respect, but of course YOU don't see any problem with it - it's your waifu the Captain got with! ... OK, OK, in all seriousness, the thing I really disagree with you on is how you think that a sexual relationship between the pair was "needed" for them to care about each-other enough for Kayto to have broken Chigara free of her spell... but the thing is; [RE]Turn kinda blew that out of the water, now didn't it? So long as two people have genuine feelings for each-other, they don't need to have sex "for the story" - they just need to reciprocate their feelings. Sex is an optional method or conclusion, not the optimum one. If Chigara was going to be the only person you could get with in this game, it would have made sense if Kayto showed just a little bit of indecisiveness on how far he took it - make it player-optional so that they don't feel railroaded into it even if they are from a narrative standpoint. Kayto would still love her and kiss her by the end, but could be that in one scene it's reaffirming what he did before, and in the other it's that he's confessing it openly for the first time. Anyone can make a linear story - making one that people like is what defines the difference.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 8, 2016 11:26:32 GMT -8
All due respect, but I don't see how that counters the fact that Claude rather pointedly told Alpha that she actually, physically endured explosive decompression of her Ryder - even going as far as to say it was bad for her skin. Surviving something like that rather definitively hints to a time-travel device most certainly not being her only trick - let's say for argument's sake she's not actually a God; if so, we're talking major cybernetic, nanotech or genetic enhancement to be able to survive something like that. And that's not even counting the knowledge she apparently has and how far-reaching it goes - there's a difference between hiding your intelligence and outright not being human. At the same time though... in the end, it's *still* pretty much semantical at this point - artificially-made or not, Claude's still a God/Deity by no stretch of the term. Additionally... I know it's mean, but that might actually be worse that people have to go through the toil and heartache of investing in a non-cannon entry just to learn themes that are apparently crucial to the main story yet weren't in said main story. Especially given what is STILL being complained about as a lackluster main story. I would not put it past Claude to just be overly dramatic considering she could be operating said device as her Ryder was decompressing meaning that yes she was technically living through it. As shown in Return most of the tricks she used such as multiplication of her Ryder and preventing the universe from ending that particular timeline seem to come from the use of her device to a degree that she is not just traveling through time but actively manipulating it. Claude is still limited by the lore of the universe as she does not want to actively interfere with timelines more than she has to, this shows that she has and knows her own limits. For me that would lead me to think that her power comes from knowledge (a branch of which being technology) and that the extent of it is perceived as 'godly' to third parties. It would be like going back in time myself a couple of hundred years with technology that did not exist yet and allowed me to do action beyond the capabilities of that timeline, either I would be perceived as other worldly, very intelligent or god like. As I have expressed previously I don't necessarily agree with your opinions and this is another example of it where you are viewing the world in just black and white. REturn can be enjoyed on its own as a stand alone piece which was the goal, but there are elements between the lines that can be said to add more context (rewarding players who draw the links and think about the themes). Both ways of reading the events are generally equally enjoyable as they cater towards different audiences. Foreshadowing is generally there to make you think of what is to come, if you pick up on it and it happens you feel good for putting the pieces together however when the foreshadowed event happens and if you didn't see it coming then it is still a win as it will create impact. The only danger is where something happens that the main game doesnt at least try to explain, this would be a negative use of foreshadowing as it penalises players for not doing additional research, something that Sunrider is still generally safe from for now as it is ongoing. Sunrider Academy was not canon meaning it could be played by new players to the series and veterans alike but if you read in between the lines there is foreshadowing of Liberation Day meaning that it is not like the author has not done this before. I think Liberation Day would have gone down better if we also had access to the next part to see how it concludes and how the events of this main game affected the end point, but as we are not there yet there is still a lot open to interpretation which is why I talk in mostly theories. [RE]Turn kinda blows that out of the water, though, since Claude in her end even confirmed to Kayto that explosive decompression was "old hat" to her. Plus, what reason does she have to lie about that? Plus, you're discounting the fact that Claude's not omnipotent - she was clearly shocked by being caught off-guard by Alice. By all accounts, the whole reason she was mad with Alpha is because she DIDN'T have time for such a thing and it got her spaced - which she brushed off as simply being annoying. Absolutely none of the "tricks" you're talking about are anything she couldn't do just by opening a looping portal or signaling herself in different time periods or the like - not something you can really do when you're caught off-guard. And her willingness to excuse the event by later telling Kayto she had Ryuvian teleport tech seems to discount your claim of "the lore of the universe" limiting her in any way - it really does not look like she expected that to happen. Again though, I don't see how that changes one single thing - because the hows are just semantics; she is STILL a God based on what she can do, regardless of the hows and whys of what makes her actually able to do it. If you can rewrite time itself like that, that's being a God - doesn't matter who you compare yourself to or what "oh, compared to lesser races" argument you make; she still equates to being like a God in power and knowledge alone (and quite possibly physicality). But again, it's precisely because "can be enjoyed on its own as a stand alone piece" that makes it a PROBLEM when trying to say it fixes LibDay's issues - it doesn't. Because, again, like *you* just said, it's a STAND ALONE PIECE. A spin-off. It doesn't actually address any of the issues in LibDay's story - it just recounts them over again from hindsight. Doesn't matter how much you read between the lines - it's still not cannon to the main series. If all that effort had gone into adding these contexts into the main game itself, there wouldn't have been any issues. This isn't an example of foreshadowing, Magpie - it's more like someone trying to make a case about why they think their game works the way they did it and this is an "extra lecture" for those that don't think so. THAT honestly feels like the format [RE]Turn was released in. The whole point is that the main game DOESN'T explain any of this - the SPIN OFF tries to, and in turn can make it more frustrating that nothing in said spin-off has any impact on the main game. But, again, there were parts of it that WERE cannon - Sola's acknowledgement of the timeline of the Academy Sola's route points to that much, and a lot of the themes there remained consistent with cannon (Ava's stern father, Chigara being a replica of Alice, Sola being temporally displaced instead of just in stasis, ect). And in those, the personalities of their characters and the stories they were in were paced far better then in LibDay did. The fact of the matter is that I don't believe that in the slightest - if LibDay were part of a larger story, you STILL would have gotten complaints about the Chigara romance and the shortness of it because it's simply too much trying to be crammed into far too little; it would be like if we'd jumped from Versta right into Far Port back in First Arrival. Making it part of a larger game would have only HIGHLIGHTED that deficiency.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 8, 2016 11:07:24 GMT -8
well, like I said that's not really the reason, but I'd say it's one of them. the real reason of course being "Sam doesn't want to", which is also fine with me personally. but then again, I don't have nearly as many misgivings with libday as you do. I still believe there wouldn't be nearly that much vitriol if all three parts were just released at once in one big whole instead of splitting it up and confusing everybody and giving rise to false expectations, but it's too late for that. and part of this is my fault too, because where the VN parts are easily merged it's the combat that really can't be (easily). My hope is that we can put enough effort and cool stuff into any eventual sequel to make up for it, and not have to break it into pieces again. But again, I think that's rather soundly disproven by how people who had the game still went through the hassle of playing it again when their MoA saves were bricked by your UI update, or when they feared their LibDay saves would be bricked by the V2.00 update - because, again, they loved the game and series. Ergo, this is *not* something to use as a reason/excuse, and if even you knew that then why would you say it instead of just saying from the start "Sam doesn't want to"? Besides... how the hell does that gel with all the time and effort he put into [RE]Turn? You're honestly telling me that going back and putting in a mid-game route that explored the same things [RE]Turn did (only in a more consistent present-tense way) would have been any harder or easier then making an entirely new spin-off? And it's not just me who had misgivings with LibDay - and it's not even the combat that there were misgivings for; it was the story. If all three parts were released together, there'd actually probably be a worse response because you have all the parts strung together with a good start and middle and a badly-done finish. And any sequel you do, it's gonna have to be chained down by the need to address anything you didn't fix in LibDay instead of being able to actually move on and even do any of that "cool stuff" you're talking about in the first place.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 8, 2016 0:14:01 GMT -8
because changing the game midway would break savegames to all hell? probably not the real reason but it'll do for me. You really think anyone who loves this series will care about that? You really think reloading or going through it one more time will be an issue for a fan of the series if it means new, worthwhile content? Especially for those who enjoy the gameplay, story and characters? Hell, there were tons of people on the Steam forums (myself included) who had to contend with how a late-game update to MoA's gameplay interface (the addition of icons to damage-values in battle and balancing and so forth) bricked all our saves, but it didn't matter because we actually LIKED the game so it was worth it to play through it again and experience the improved gameplay mechanics in conjunction with the story. What you're saying here... that's not a limitation - that's something that pretty much all game-makers deal with for DLC, and something all players have to deal with when weighing if its worth going back and re-dong. I don't think that even qualifies as a real reason, let alone anything that would stop anyone. If you add the extra content, they're not going to mind re-doing the game - especially if it makes the whole experience going forward better for them. In fact, I don't remember this being an issue even in LibDay when some early-access people had to play through the whole game just to get to the 2.0 content, or some newtime purchasers played through the whole game to get to [RE]Turn.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 8, 2016 0:04:50 GMT -8
While I can agree with some of your gripes, such as the story feeling rushed, others I can debate on. Icari and Kryska were bff rivals since the first game. Icari didn't trust her because she worked for the Alliance and Kryska distrusted Icari for being a mercenary. This was pretty much resolved in the last battle of the first game. You can read this between the lines from their interactions in MoA. It's also why many like them as the mandatory lesbian couple. With Kayto, love makes people blind. Talk to any new couple and they'll downplay any obvious flaws in their partner. Why do you think con artists are able to operate so easily? Asaga...well I'm on the fence here. I can agree with you that she made the personality swap way too fast. She'd been Chigara's bff for years and then makes the jump to resenting if not outright hating her. While you can read this as a combo of jealousy and the Sharr, a lot of people will resent not being TOLD why. Kinda like the bitterness on the WoW forums. Alliance players resent constantly being TOLD what their side did as opposed to be SHOWN and lash out because of it. However I still stand by my stance of the writers had to work with what limited resources they had. Maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong, I'm a fanfic writer too btw, but ranting with hate for their story while at the same time that you could do a better job than them isn't going to get you the kind of response you want. Yes, Icari and Kryska were "bff rivals", but they weren't quite so buddy-buddy that they were having lunch together. It was more a begrudging respect as opposed to a full-on dieheard friendship until LibDay came around - in all honesty, the lunch scene is the kind of thing I would expect to be the FINAL RESULT of their stand-off at the Liberation Day Massacre breaking down the walls between them once and for all and allowing a true friendship, not the prelude to it. The scenes on a stand-alone basis are good, but the execution and placement of them feels disjointed. All the last battle did was resolve any doubt on whether or not they could count on each-other in battle, but not any of their other issues regarding ideology and views on duty and so-forth, and reading between the lines actually hints to the OPPOSITE - that there's still some tension between them; that even though they do care about the other, they're haven't got the catalyst to make them admit it. Their stand off near the end of LibDay would be exactly that, which makes the lunch scene feel like it's too early narratively speaking. There's a difference between being blind and being stupid, though - not seeing someone's flaws is one thing, and disregarding the doubts of your oldest friends and not paying attention to anyone else in general when you're a ship captain with explicit duties to them is something else. The bigger thing though is that it's not the existence of a relationship that's the problem - it's that it was portrayed as a flawless one taking place in such a short time when no real catalyst for a romantic tie was seen as opposed to Chigara just returning the "stand by your side" favor Kayto's done for her and everyone else. With Asaga, [RE]Turn did a somewhat better job of explaining that her overuse of her "Awakening" - which she kept using over and over again in battle to try and impress Kayto, even though she was nowhere near acclimatized to the stress it put on her body and brain - caused her to progressively become emotionally unstable. It's even suggested by some fans that the "Sharr" personality never really existed - that it was just Asaga's invention so that she could have something to embody all her bad traits and keep her image of herself "pure"; her imaginary "friend" that she could put blame on for and absolve herself any and all of her wrongdoings, so to speak (like say, her brutal attack on Cosette). As time goes on though, she starts embracing those bad traits as her grip on a moral compass slips away more and more, so she sees the Sharr less and less as she starts accepting she herself is doing this of her own accord (albeit in a deranged "I'll show them all!" way). The issue is that this "Awakening-overuse = declining mental state" thing is REALLY something we should have seen in the main game (now it's alluded to if you read between the lines, where you could imply that Chigara's confrontation with Asaga in the Ryder bay is Chigara stating she stopped talking to Asaga out of fear for the latter's declining state and Asaga gets more obsessive over her Sharr power, but it's never directly stated, and it really needed to be - or at least alluded to more heavily). It's not a matter of not being told why - it's a matter of feeling like no explanation or even real hint was given at all for something that feels like it's supposed to be a main plot point. The thing there is that we've ALREADY had Samu himself debunk the rumor that LibDay was negatively affected by costs from voice-acting - he made the choices he did of his own accord. And with all due respect, I think Dex's hate is more that he thinks Samu isn't acknowledging that he made mistakes or that he isn't acknowledging the things people criticized his story.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 7, 2016 23:44:12 GMT -8
And no, dont bullshit me about finances. Making a VN is one of the cheapest games you can make besides a gamebook. It does not require high ammounts of resources or programming. You add a sprite, you add a text. Done. They could have easily expanded all 3 games far more than they did (Especially in Lib Day). Hell, they could have even made more choises and branching paths. If this wasnt mainly a VN, i would agree with you, but it is a VN. They could have easily expanded all of that, the writter just chose not to. Making VNs is comparatively cheap, yes. Making a fully voiced VN, however, isn't. No matter the quality of voiceactors, if you're doing it on Sunrider's budget it'll still cost an arm and a leg. So of course they ended up cutting a lot of text and content, that's what you do when you have to budget for VA. Which is why making LD fully voiced was completely mind-boggling. Why bother, really? It wasn't voiced before, getting VA onboard halfway through seems counterintuitive. Why was it even done? Who demanded it, the fans? Was it, together with that neat animation sequence at the start, done so they could pitch the game to someone? Or maybe they simply felt they could generate more interest for Sunrider that way? I just can't get my head around it. Then again, I don't read VNs all that often, and I know jack shit about the trends in that segment of the industry. Maybe it all makes sense. I sure hope it does. SaveThe VO's weren't a necessity, though - they were a choice. Not to mention that, according to Samu himself, the VO's WEREN'T all that expensive and the belief that they took from the budget heavily was a complete misnomer. It was, according to him, his own choice to write LibDay as he did rather then any form of budget constraint.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 7, 2016 23:38:09 GMT -8
Because there was no romance in the first two. As you, and the rest of us noticed, his attention was focused on Ava. However she rejected him at a time when he was under heavy emotional pressure and Chigara was there to fill in the void, which is likely where the romance started up...at the end of MoA. Also what you get from a kickstarter game is reliant on several factors, one of which is the amount they get through the program. They aren't some rich company that can show every event from start to finish and as such rely on innuendo to fill in the blanks. I'm not saying I agree with the Chigara romance arc. My preference goes Icari, Asaga, Sola, Ava, Chigara, Claude and then Kryska. The thing with that though is that what was shown between Kayto and Chigara STILL does not fall into it being romance territory - if anything it comes across more as a reflection of what Kayto's already done for the rest of the crew; be there for them when in need. It's not too drastically different from what Kayto did for Asaga - not as flashy as a full-on rescue, granted, but it's the same base concept of being there at someone's side even when they don't want you to; to stand by them even though you taking their burden is the last thing they want you to do. Yes, the potential for a romance to start up is at MoA's end, but it was not executed in such a way as to make the transition believable. For example - you've made a point to repeatedly bring up Kira and Flay from Mobile Suit Gundam:SEED, yes? But the big differences there were that: -(A) Kira and Flay weren't talking about MARRIAGE AND KIDS in the month they were together/after a month of being together because they weren't that certain of their feelings anywhere near enough to think it was permanent (or Kira wasn't at least - Flay was full-on manipulator in the start) - (B) Kira's falling into a relationship with Flay was mitigated a bit by his seemingly being (at least partially) aware that he did it for comfort and nursing a subconscious guilt over it that caused bumps in the road, which made it imperfect and therefore much more realistic then the picturesque way LibDay did it - (C) it didn't make Kira blind to the issues of others or taking note of/getting close to/befriending other females like Cagalli (who he didn't know was his twin sister at the time). Had LibDay clearly showed the two nursing or even persuading away the other's doubts that they're doing it as a comfort-release or to prove some kind of point to themselves, it would would have not been anywhere near as badly-received as it was. Now, about that kickstarter claim of yours... I don't see the connection. It's not how much you have - it's what you do with it and the skill you have to apply it on. All the money in the world can't buy good writing or create good execution of a concept - it's what you DO with that money, the effort behind it, the care and consideration for the story you're crafting and the capacity to recognize when something doesn't work that makes the game. Besides, given the amount of time and effort that went into [RE]Turn, saying they couldn't have done that for LibDay or gone back and added it in later is kind of hard to believe for me, personally.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 7, 2016 23:22:10 GMT -8
The vibe I was given was that it was happening behind the scenes. Ava did comment about it early in the game and Chigara had made her feelings known from the beginning of MoA. With Kayto it may have just been him latching onto her since she was the providing him with support since Ava told him bluntly she wasn't interested anymore, Asaga was trying to be the cool heroine, Claude was a no go, Icari was being Tsundere and Kryska...well she was just there. My overall feeling, as I put in another post is that it's one of those manga/anime romance misdirects. Kinda like how Kira got it on with Flay in Gundam Seed early on. With Chigara acting rather...(twirls finger around the ear) in the Prototype mindspace I don't think she'll be the same coming back. Yes, but I think that in turn was LibDay's big problem narratively (aside from lacking in execution) - alot of the stuff that was NEEDED to make us care and understand the buildup of this relationship was the stuff that was not focused on; the stuff we were never shown. Hell [RE]Turn doesn't even rectify that because the scene with Kayto and Claude where Kayto expresses his doubts is done by future Kayto - AKA, Kayto in HINDSIGHT, as opposed to Kayto in the present actually showing any sign of having these very real and valid concerns. I admit that Flay and Kira was a good analogue to start with, but the difference is that we actually saw those two develop - we actually saw step by step the way Flay comforted Kira and wormed her way into his heart for her own ends. We also didn't see them jumping into wanting marriage and kids since one wasn't even sure what he wanted and the other wasn't planning for it to be long. LibDay didn't do as good a job executing that - it would have been circumvented if there'd been an arc that showed their relationship being an actual human relationship (Chigara confessing she's taking things too fast out of fear that she won't see Kayto again, or confessing to Kayto that she's just like him - AKA, she wants to quickly lay down a family in order to prove to herself that she's capable of having a normal life, though in her case it'll be that she can do it at all as opposed to Kayto returning to it). Fixing it as is without going back into LibDay, though... well, I actually think the best way to do that would be, cliché as it is to use twice over in the series... would be flashbacks. Yes, they're not optimal and they can be a bad mechanic if misused but Tokyo Ghoul's used them to good effect before (or at least half the time). Plus, it would fit in line for the story as Kayto enters a period of deep self-reflection as he looks back on the mess that cost him everything and tries to sort out piece-by-piece where and why he went wrong and weather or not what happened with Chigara was real or if it was just manipulation. Just like it helped him sort out where he stood with Ava (though in what way is arguably the player's choice with the Legion decision), flashbacks could let us see that blank month between LibDay's start and the Sunrider's launch and let us see what it was that made him latch on to Chigara THAT strongly - and maybe add player agency back in by choosing in what way Kayto comes to view the memories.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 7, 2016 23:07:06 GMT -8
REturn is non-canon only in that as far as any future titles in the series are concerned none of the events in REturn happened. It is however canon as far as lore is concerned and any character backgrounds and/or motivations revealed still apply to the main series. In this sense it is more canon than Sunrider Academy, which truly is a separate (but still connected because lolforeshadowing) universe. I believe Claude knows the events in REturn are ultimately pointless, as even changing the past will only produce a new (non-canon!) universe but she does what she does anyway for her own reasons. be they simply amusement or actually just wanting Shields to have things go his way for once and have a potential happy ending. Tossing people around across various timelines just may be a way for a godlike being to 'get to know them better', like anyone else would invite someone to hang out. How can we tell how one so powerful would think?
I think it's very possible that in any future titles that continue on from where LibDay ended Claude does in fact know all that happened in REturn but it doesn't really affect anything that'll be going on around them, so it ends up being moot anyway. Yeah, but therein lies the PROBLEM with RE:Turn; you're making people care and get invested in something that is ultimately inconsequential to the story since nothing there changes anything, reveals anything that wasn't already known, or shows anything that's not imminently about to be revealed anyway. It's a headscratching moment for why, when the main story is critiqued for deficiency, you put all your effort into creating what's basically a spin-off instead of reinforcing the mid-game itself. Like you just said - "it's all moot." So why go through the trouble to make it when you could have covered these themes in the main game instead?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 7, 2016 22:59:53 GMT -8
The way I have started looking at these alternative timeline games is that while the content may not be canon the themes can be, for example you get a more complete view of how Kayto behaves after viewing him in the third person. I think it is almost certain that the: device used by Claude in this DLC will be the same as the one in the main arc when it comes to the next Sunrider game. The only exception will be that Kayto will not have access to one directly like he does in the Claude route (unless that ending was actually meant to foreshadow something). All due respect, but I don't see how that counters the fact that Claude rather pointedly told Alpha that she actually, physically endured explosive decompression of her Ryder - even going as far as to say it was bad for her skin. Surviving something like that rather definitively hints to a time-travel device most certainly not being her only trick - let's say for argument's sake she's not actually a God; if so, we're talking major cybernetic, nanotech or genetic enhancement to be able to survive something like that. And that's not even counting the knowledge she apparently has and how far-reaching it goes - there's a difference between hiding your intelligence and outright not being human. At the same time though... in the end, it's *still* pretty much semantical at this point - artificially-made or not, Claude's still a God/Deity by no stretch of the term. Additionally... I know it's mean, but that might actually be worse that people have to go through the toil and heartache of investing in a non-cannon entry just to learn themes that are apparently crucial to the main story yet weren't in said main story. Especially given what is STILL being complained about as a lackluster main story.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 12, 2016 23:22:22 GMT -8
When I first saw Kuushana I figured that she was a character intended to be introduced in the next game (the version 2.00 ending was supposed to be the beginning of the next Sunrider game I think) so her introduction didn't really bother me that much. She also explained just why Alice turned into a genocidal idiot which was a bonus for me since I had no idea. I can see how it can come across as forced though. A novel character being introduced into the games reminds me of Kai Leng from Mass Effect 3 (Anderson and Miranda talked about him as if he was some dangerous guy who I should be careful around. I had no idea why he was such a big deal and thought of him as more of a nuisance who killed Thane and mocked me after he ran away from every fight). If Chigara reappears in the future I'm hoping for an option to have Kayto kill her/stay as far away from her as possible. Liberation Day left me thoroughly irritated by her, the Prototypes, and everything to do with Diode. It'd also be cool to have some dialogue options with Claude showing that we still don't fully trust her yet (she didn't know about Alice's genocidal plans, but still worked to further the goals of those responsible for killing millions, if not billions, in a pointless interstellar war, and she doesn't seem all that apologetic about it :L). Well, maybe, but even then that has issues of it's own. I could understand it being rushed - LiS probably felt panicked to get something out to try and smooth out complaints about the game's story, so as a result the scene with Kuushana was rushed out without being properly paced. Had it been the intro for the next game as was probably intended, it probably would have been edited better. In the end though, it doesn't change the fact that as it is, it's not the best introduction for such a major character - and yes, Kai Leng is very much the poster boy for why I think one should implement novel-based characters better. Because, in all honesty, the fact that Kuushana is a pre-established character from the Veniczar novel is why her abrupt introduction chafes a bit. I agree on this, though at the same time what I'd really like to see more is that irritation be mirrored in the crew. As far as I can tell, LibDay was trying (emphasis on TRYING) to illustrate a story of how love and human emotions are a double-edged sword; they aren't purely a weakness like Alice thought, yet they aren't purely a strength like Kayto thought, and both ended up undone because they couldn't change their beliefs until the very end. An now that we've seen them have their big "the Captain's not dead!" emotional moment, I really think the only way to really rectify LibDay's failure to illustrate things is to have the crew - now armed with months of hindsight and time to think on it - is a bit less trusting of their captain then they were before. I'd think they'd be more prone to question his decisions and priorities, or grill him about what the hell it was he was thinking in how he fell in with Chigara so quickly and unquestioningly. Another thing that I think ought to be addressed - Kayto's martyr syndrome. In LibDay, Kayto SUPPOSEDLY fell in with Chigara so hard because he was trying to prove to himself that he just wanted some form of release, and Chigara reciprocated because she wanted to prove to herself that she was a normal girl or that, if she wasn't, that she could be. In [RE]Turn... even with hindsight, he STILL fell into this as, for most of the routes, he treated Chigara as the sourcepoint for his past self's actions, even going as far as to see Chigara as "corrupting" him ("What has Chigara done to him?!", ect). It wasn't until the very end (when he punched his old self out) that he finally admitted that (regardless of if his feelings for Chigara were love or just dependence) he fell into the relationship because of his own need to feel like he could save someone and protect them. All throughout LibDay, Kayto had placed blame on himself for things that weren't his fault, yet refused to take blame for the things that were - he threw away the Sunrider away because of misplaced guilt over Cera's fall and Maray's death, yet he raged at Fontana and even Ava at one point for pointing out his obsession (more on having a relationship to lean on then even Chigara herself, possibly) had blinded him to what had always been obvious. He tried to martyr himself even as he refused to accept he was making wrong choices, and a good catharsis would be seeing someone on the crew confront him on it the way they did in [RE]Turn. LibDay, in spite of being toted as the game where the crew was going to start tearing itself apart... doesn't. If anything, it feels more like the SETUP for that - because it's only now, after Kayto's big screw-up, that the crew does in fact have a solid reason to doubt Kayto as much as he doubts himself. Voice uncertainty at times, question his state at others - maybe even do the most unthinkable thing for a waifu to do; be put off of pursuing the PC (unless they make the right choices to win her back). Asaga seems a rather good candidate for the last part, between fear that Kayto's just going to do to her what he did to Chigara (comfort-romance that might not even be real), disgust at how someone she was interested in could fall to such a low to begin with and guilt at not knowing how much of what Chigara felt was Prototype plan and how much of it was really Chigara/whether or not the girl she called a surrogate sister was lying from the start or just tragically manipulated like the rest of them.
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