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Post by planguy on Dec 21, 2020 17:30:22 GMT -8
Prototypes could have been seeded all throughout known space, ones similar in situation to Chigara. Infiltrators with their own implanted memories and endowed with a great deal of autonomy. The mindstream could control them through mainly subconscious impulses. It actually makes sense to me that Chigara was initially in an "Asaga watchdog" position until she was shifted towards Kayto. She didn't need to bring in Asaga, after all, she was probably used as a living spying device. I do believe that her feelings for Kayto are real, but she was definitely manipulated into pursuing him, at least initially. Or at least her attraction was worked into the prototypes plans.
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Post by planguy on Dec 21, 2020 17:04:22 GMT -8
I really hope not. Chigara has her fans and it seems almost mean spirited to have her replaced by a clone. Sister? Sister clone? Personally I'd be fine with tossing Chigara in the trash bin but for her fans sake I'd want her to come back.
Is Lynn maybe around to provide a body for Chigara to download into? That would suck for Lynn. Maybe it's going to be a big choice that comes up in the future?
So is Lynn going to be some kind of Chigara replacement to fill in the Chigara hole in the cast or is she going to be her own character with Chigara still existing alongside her as a potential waifu?
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Post by planguy on Dec 8, 2020 18:59:19 GMT -8
Kryska and Icari together ought to be an option that come together. It should go one of two ways: either they end up with each other, or they have a 3 way with Kayto. This is something that I think should be an option for people who are interested but I don't want to do it. I'm really hoping there is an "Icari solo route", but considering how LiS works I'm thinking they're only going to have the Icari route where, at the very least, Icari has a one night stand at some point with Kryska. I want the option of having Icari by herself, without her engaging in any kind of sexual relationship with anyone else. As for Kryska, yeah I'd definitely want her as a potential route. Probably not going to happen. I honestly believe she just exists so that Icari can have a girl she sleeps with before she gets with Kayto in her route. Or she enters into a polygamous relationship with Icari and Kayto, where all of them aren't actually dating each other but instead Icari has her boyfriend Kayto and her girlfriend Kryska.
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Post by planguy on Nov 14, 2020 19:35:45 GMT -8
Just a way that fans can see the obvious problems with the story of Sunrider 4 and provide feedback so that another Chigara situation doesn't show up. I figure patrons are going to get the majority of sway for voting for stuff to include in the game but sometimes they're too close to the product to provide decent feedback for quality, or they might not feel like it's their place to provide unasked for feedback. I mean, Liberation Day had play testers and they seemed to completely overlook the problems that the majority of actual purchasers had with the game that were so bad that free dlc had to be released to mitigate some of the damage. Hell, even if the game was supposed to be the "Empire Strikes Back" of the Sunrider series and it had to end on a downer note you could have still done that while respecting player agency. You could have had a downer ending without taking away the most important aspect of player agency in a waifu game, the player's choice of waifu. Even if the intent was for the disaster of the Chigara "romance" to be a part of the common route with the actual Chigara romance being resolved later in the game feedback from the fans would have shown that nobody would like that. The Chigara failed romance should only have happened when you were on the Chigara romance route. Otherwise something else should have led to the Liberation Day Massacre.
So anyways is there going to be any advance info for what's going down in Sunrider 4? Warnings that the game is going full kinetic novel? Warnings if there are going to be more railroaded romances? Warnings that Chigara was a red herring waifu option and that her failed romance is as far as you'll ever get to romance her? (This one I'm worried about. I despise Chigara but I still want those people who were fans of her original character to have the option to get her back as her original self and not some mind broken yandere. Hell, Chigara fans were the worst hit by the Chigara railroad.) Is player agency going to be returned at any point? Will our choices matter? Will there be any kind of in game apology or olive branch extended to the people who were burned by the game in the past? (Kayto pointing out the ridiculousness of his past actions and the like) Is there going to be any doubling down on decisions made in the past? Like are there going to be extra attempts to get people to care about Chigara? Will the player be punished for taking negative choices with regards to Chigara? Is a "Good End" going to be locked behind the Chigara redemption route? Will any of the girls be a true route? (for the love of god don't make any of the girls the "True Route") Will Sunrider 4 have an ending? Or is it going to be another game without an end that leads to another Sunrider game? I'm hoping for an ending, or at least the ending of the common route and the start of romance routes. I'm hoping that there actually are romance routes, not the current status quo that can't change because it's impossible to model those changes if you make 15 Sunrider games. Will the game continue to try to be "deep" and subvert expectations or will there be an attempt to make a story that people actually like? You know, sometimes people like character archetypes and you don't need to make the shy cute girl a corrupt enemy agent or the dumb genki girl a jealous maniac. Perhaps your first western focused VN should have a simpler story, you know?
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Post by planguy on Nov 13, 2020 15:54:15 GMT -8
Previously people accepted there not being a route for a girl in the previous games because the assumption was that eventually the choices you had made would inform which girl you got romantic scenes with. The assumption was that we were still on a "common route" that didn't feature any romance yet and eventually we would branch out into a specific girls route, or we would stick to a common route but get additional romantic and lewd scenes according to character affection. The assumption was that there would be player agency.
Instead we got a forced romance route that ends in disaster with the girl romanced irrevocably changed from the character archetype that she used to be. Thus screwing both people who didn't like the character (Why am I romancing little sister/girl that I think is boring Chigara?) and people who actually did like her (I liked cute girl next door/shy smart girl Chigara and now she is effectively dead). The Chigara romance satisfied nobody, neither fans of the character or her haters. I honestly don't know what was the motivation behind the Chigara railroad. I initially thought that it was due to some fetish for a "pure" girl being corrupted but I also feel like it might be some kind of mean spirited attack on the Chigara archetype. Oh, you like the shy girl? Congrats, she's actually an enemy agent and eventually becomes a mind broken mess that effectively suffers personality death.
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Post by planguy on Aug 21, 2020 20:14:26 GMT -8
Stories usually need endings in order to feel satisfying. The Sunrider universe could have any number of stories, but the story of Kayto and his crew should have some kind of ending.
Clove, how long do you think would be long enough? Like would you like to see a game featuring each girl, with Kayto entering into a relationship with the girl the game features? And then have a final game where Kayto picks a single girl or gets a harem ending? Would you prefer new threats showing up that the crew keeps having to deal with?
Personally I feel like there might be a three act structure going on, with Liberation Day being the "Empire Strikes Back" of the series. I don't have any problem with a game ending badly, characters having a darkest hour which they recover from in a future game or games. I just take exception to the game featuring a railroaded romance to get to the bad end that the developers envisioned, especially when the bad end could be accomplished without the forced romance.
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Post by planguy on Aug 18, 2020 16:32:42 GMT -8
I really feel like the developers shot themselves in the foot in trying to make Sunrider some expansive multi game epic. It severely cuts down choice. Or at least that's the excuse I see most often used. I still figure more choice could have been implemented. Have the main plot not feature romance at all and have romance scenes added when you have high enough affection with a girl and the right event flags.
My hope would be that the next game is the last. Really make the choices matter. Maybe make the next game have mutually exclusive endings for each girl and have separate games for each girl after. Like "Sunrider: Asaga's Story" and "Sunrider: Ava's Story".
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Post by planguy on Aug 18, 2020 13:40:36 GMT -8
Is there a plan in place? A game that is too long with a lot of filler and no choice or little choice because you have to take into account how choices effect future games will gradually erode Sunriders popularity. I mean, more the Liberation day already did.
Please don't tell me we are getting arcs for each girl. Considering what was done to Chigara that's going to be bad. Each game having a forced romance route with a different girl and the ending game features Kayto choosing from one of the girls he has already "tried out". If you guys are going to have each game feature a different girl as the focus please let us choose to not romance the girl. I don't want to play a kayto who romances everyone, I want to focus on the girl I'm shooting for on each separate playthrough.
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Post by planguy on Aug 17, 2020 3:01:49 GMT -8
Any chance for a stripped down single game version of Sunrider that features actual routes for each girl, a story with a beginning, middle and end and player agency? Some project like Sunrider Academy, only set in an alternate version of the standard setting. Routes for each girl, with no version of the Chigara railroad unless you are on her route. The game being limited to one simpler retelling of the Sunrider story would allow more freedom for player agency because the developers don't need to worry about how all the choices you make in the current game will have to affect the next game.
The plot could be like what might happen if the original Sunrider was a tv series that got made into a theatrical movie. Or maybe the plot could feature an entirely different conflict with the familiar group of characters.
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Post by planguy on Aug 17, 2020 1:30:42 GMT -8
The option to completely deny that the relationship with Chigara was of any importance. Perhaps the revelation that the Chigara romance was entirely the result of mind control, with the resulting issues that creates. The option to start things fresh with Chigara, for the "first" time, for a legitimate relationship entered into by choice(hey, I'm not heartless, there should be the option to romance Chigara for her fans), or the option to formalize the fact that the relationship never truly happened to begin with. Two puppets don't make a legitimate relationship, after all.
Just anything that gives the player some choice with regards to Chigara. I'm not even saying she shouldn't be a romance option, but we should have a damn choice in the matter. And honestly for the haters there should be multiple options to be vindictive against Chigara, and the railroad of which her and Kayto's relationship consisted. Denials that the relationship was ever actually valid, Kayto getting replaced by a past version of himself who never was involved with Chigara. Something.
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Post by planguy on Aug 17, 2020 1:10:10 GMT -8
I don't feel like the whole mess with Chigara was an example of Sunrider being a game that has "arcs" for each girl. And even it it was there should have been the option to not romance Chigara during her "arc".
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Post by planguy on Feb 9, 2018 18:36:20 GMT -8
So anyone playing the games notice any kind of horrible Chigara situation? What girls got featured and how are their routes?
Sasami is going to be the Chigara, isn't she?
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Post by planguy on Aug 9, 2017 6:57:05 GMT -8
You joke Magpie, but any story developments that make it so that the Chigara relationship never actually happened would be welcomed by me.
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Post by planguy on Aug 9, 2017 6:49:00 GMT -8
So what's the Chigara value for deciding that the whole relationship was the result of temporary madness and that it totally didn't count?
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Post by planguy on Aug 9, 2017 6:41:23 GMT -8
I worry that Chigara being characterized as a yandere is just going to end up being another attempt to force her down peoples throats. Like, "Hmm, you didn't like the forced romance? Well now she is a villain and she'll be the best villain ever!" Going from mary sue to villain sue when I'd prefer her just getting less focus over all.
There is also the fact that the problem with Chigara is not just that some people thought she was forced on them but that some people who liked her original characterization basically had to suffer her character death because Chigara isn't really there anymore. The Chigara restoration path better be pretty good, and it better be possible without romancing her.
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Post by planguy on Aug 9, 2017 6:00:08 GMT -8
Oh there will be another one sure. After all Sola has an extended period of time alone with the good captain. ...Things need to happen. Or not happen, if the player so chooses. The last thing these games need is more forced romance. Personally I'm interested in more Sunrider games just to see how they dig themselves out of the Chigara hole.
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Post by planguy on Aug 9, 2017 5:53:38 GMT -8
Ava: 1239 Asaga: 1485 (+3) Chigara: Eliminated Cossete: Eliminated Icari: 390 (-5) Claude: Eliminated Kriska: 1140 Sola: 1590
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Post by planguy on Aug 5, 2017 19:03:09 GMT -8
Ava: 1224 (+3) Asaga: 1470 Chigara: Eliminated Cossete: Eliminated Icari: 495 (-5) Claude: Eliminated Blue-Haired-One: 1131 Sola: 1566
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Post by planguy on Aug 1, 2017 22:04:21 GMT -8
Ava: 1200 Asaga: 1455 (+3) Chigara: Eliminated Cossete: Eliminated Icari: 625 (-5) Claude: Eliminated Kriska: 1122 Sola: 1536
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Post by planguy on Jul 28, 2017 10:54:16 GMT -8
Ava: 1176 Asaga: 1438 (+3) Chigara: Eliminated Cossete: Eliminated Icari: 770 (-5) Claude: Eliminated Kriska: 1114 Sola: 1500
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Post by planguy on Jul 22, 2017 22:06:57 GMT -8
I'd like there to be an option to help Chigara without it being due to having feelings for her. It's just what you'd do for a member of your crew.
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Post by planguy on Jul 22, 2017 22:04:01 GMT -8
I would have liked a system like Star Ocean. Affection unlocks scenes with the girls, which are in addition to the main thrust of the narrative. Some scenes are persistent and some scenes are location and time specific, like the ship lands on a planet so the crew can get some rest and relaxation and there is a date like scene available for the girl you have the highest affection with. After a certain threshold of affection you are considered in a committed relationship with a particular girl, unlocking the lewd stuff and locking you out of a relationship with the other girls. The girl you have flagged as your significant other is given certain plot important moments in the main story. The game's epilogue describes what happens to you both after the events of the game.
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Post by planguy on Jul 22, 2017 21:41:50 GMT -8
Ava: 1149 Asaga: 1417 (+3) Chigara: Eliminated Cossete: Eliminated Icari: 930 (-5) Claude: Eliminated Kriska: 1102 Sola: 1464
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Post by planguy on Jul 21, 2017 19:18:53 GMT -8
I'm still of the opinion that becoming a yandere hivemind is exactly what Chigara needed in the way of positive character growth. She's much more interesting this way. I'm worried that she just going to get more focus with her new situation as an excuse. "Hey, we see that you thought Chigara was a black hole from which there was no escape. Don't worry, we're going to solve that by giving you more of her. She's interesting now, though!" I don't want Chigara to be Kayto's "Most Important Person" as either a lover or as a nemesis. Or at least I want the option to play Kayto as though that isn't the case. Oh! Another thing. I don't hate Chigara enough that I want her route to get scrapped our anything, so I feel I should make another suggestion seeing as how Chigara was so mishandled that I worry that her fans are going to be shafted. If there are any plans to have as part of Chigara's route having Kayto get together some clone of Chigara who is pretending to be with her to mess with his head I would sincerely suggest you not do that. It's wouldn't be a clever trick, it would just be rage inducing.
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Post by planguy on Jul 21, 2017 18:38:57 GMT -8
Ava: 1146 Asaga: 1411 (-3) Chigara: Eliminated Cossete: Eliminated Icari: 960 (-5) Claude: Eliminated Kriska: 1099 Sola: 1452
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Post by planguy on Jul 20, 2017 5:13:05 GMT -8
Yeah, the whole Chigara thing is going too have a big impact, no denying that. How exactly Kayto is going to be able to enter into a relationship with any of the other girls is questionable, for example. Kayto has already been involved with a crewmember and it was disastrous. If Kayto tries to start something with anyone else wouldn't they feel like they are a replacement for Chigara, or that Kayto is once again dealing with stress by boffing another of his subordinates? If Kayto tries to act like Chigara didn't happen then his crew is going to rightly point out that it did in fact happen and that there are consequences for his mistake. But I still feel like it's important for it to at least be an option to play Kayto as believing that his relationship with Chigara wasn't legitimate. That if someone asks "but what about Chigara" Kayto has the option of saying "She meant nothing to me" and meaning it.
I guess what I'm saying is that the extent that the shadow of Chigara should necessarily effect the plot should be limited to the fallout from the relationship. The distrust and bad feelings that have resulted from the ill thought out dalliance. Leave how Kayto feels about Chigara up to the player.
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Post by planguy on Jul 19, 2017 15:01:34 GMT -8
I really hope that any further games don't feature a lengthy portion that is effectively an elegy to the Chigara relationship. I honestly want such a thing to be optional, it's only fair to allow some element of choice in the matter after having it forced on the player. The very fact that choosing whether or not to pursue a relationship with Chigara is now defined as "reuniting" or "rejecting" is what bugs me. There should be an option for Kayto to stubbornly refuse to see what had happened between him and Chigara as a relationship at all. Other characters should of course address this but it should be a position that the player should be allowed to take. You should have the choice of whether or not Kayto sees Chigara as a Tragic First Love or as an inconsequential mistake. And the player shouldn't be demonized for thinking it was a mistake, either.
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Post by planguy on Jul 19, 2017 14:27:02 GMT -8
Ava: 1131 Asaga: 1402 (+3) Chigara: Eliminated Cossete: Eliminated Icari: 1040 (-5) Claude: Eliminated Kriska: 1093 Sola: 1434
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Post by planguy on Jul 19, 2017 14:23:50 GMT -8
Maybe the H stuff in Sasami's route will be that she's actually surprisingly lewd? As for what it'll feature storyline wise I'm guessing that her initial view of the MC as a "good guy" will suffer some damage at some point. Other then that the source of drama for her will be reconciling her ideals to a corrupt business.
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Post by planguy on Jul 18, 2017 3:15:28 GMT -8
I liked it. It did a good job of showcasing each of the girls. I'm a fan of each of them because each of them got a chance to shine without one particular girl becoming a black hole from which there is no escape. How much does the common route continue past the events of the demo? I'm assuming that picking the center is picking your route?
Something that I found annoying was the naval gazing of the beginning. I felt like my eyes were going to roll out of my head. Feels like the game is protesting too much. I did see a glimmer of characterization of the MC that I appreciated, he seemed like despite paying lip service to being cynical he deep down still believed in the business. As long as his transition to being more gung ho about the idol biz is a gradual thing I think it'll be neat to see the MC develop along with the girls.
Now, what we're all really interested in, impressions of the girls.
Sasami: I guess she shares "Main girl" status with Mariya? At least it seems so? She definitely gives me Chigara vibes, but seeing as how she seems like she is officially the main girl I feel like it'll bother me less when she gets focus. Chigara's getting focus when Asaga seemed like she was supposed to be the main girl was one of my primary problems with said character in addition to the forced romance. Anyways Sasami overcomes her character archetype enough to garner a bit of my favor. I feel like she has more under the surface waiting to be discovered despite her fairly clichéd backstory with the MC.
Mariya: Ah, the much more compelling character. I always have a preference for the more "mature" character archetypes. Her being a failed idol with one last shot at the big leagues makes her very easy to root for. Definitely in the ranking for number 1 waifu.
Aki: I never thought I'd like a shitty faux loli so much. The two faced legal loli isn't the most unique archetype but Aki makes it work. I find her honest embrace of her desires to be refreshing. It's also cute how tsundere she is with her team. It's the oldest trick in the characterization book but damn if it isn't effective.
Julie: Waifu number 1! To me the most visually appealing. Also proud tsunderes who secretly have some insecurities are always an easy sell for me. I like how she likes the MC because she see's him as being genuine and reliable while also appreciating that he seems aware of the fundamental fakeness of the idol biz.
Mika: We must protect this chuuni's smile. "because I saw it in an anime once" is way too relatable as a character motivation.
Natsuki: The country bumpkin of the group. Not really seeing much depth from the demo but she's got a nice visual style. Her being a weird mix of too pure and not pure at all seems like it could lead to some interesting shenanigans.
Nemu: Get back to your own game, Claude! Ahem. It's hard to say no to a busty lady but she's definitely the weakest of the lot. Still not a trash waifu, but not stellar. I do have some affection for less stab happy yandere, though.
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