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Post by planguy on Apr 6, 2017 2:59:07 GMT -8
I think the reason why the Chigara forced route bugs people is that the game was marketed as, effectively, choose your waifu space battle simulator. It's a legitimate complaint that player agency is curtailed by having the protagonist enter into a romantic relationship without their input. I mean, something happening in a flashback is fine, because that is effectively playable backstory, but in the context of the games "present"? That should be entirely up to the player. Also, it doesn't matter that moving forward you have the option of pursuing other options, it's the fact that an option was chosen at all with out the players active input that is the problem. Anyways, for me at least the fact that the whole Chigara thing happened lessens any relationship possible moving forward. I mean it's already unprofessional for a captain to enter into a relationship with his subordinate, but to having him enter into a relationship with another subordinate after his first relationship ended so poorly? Unbelievable. There is also the fact that any future relationship now has to deal with the ever present shadow of Chigara.
Anyways, moving forward I would really prefer Chigara to, narratively, get thrown under the bus, at least as an option. Since rewrites are unfeasible the only path I can see moving forward is future versions of Kayto having a stubborn refusal of seeing what happened with Chigara as a legitimate relationship and instead seeing it a massive mistake. I don't even want there to be any feeling of Chigara being a past lover if you choose not to see her as such. Of course there should be the option to be wistful about Chigara, for the Chigara relationship restoration path, but if you don't and didn't want anything to do with her? There should be the option to have Kayto be literally unable to understand why he was ever with her to begin with. The way I see it there should be, like, three variables: 1. Never loved Chigara, only thought you did with current mild disgust at this fact 2. Loved Chigara, felt so betrayed by her that you vow never to involve yourself with her again (this can still lead to a Chigara path, it's one where Kayto is initially really upset with her) 3. Loved Chigara, wistful.
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Post by planguy on Mar 15, 2017 16:20:10 GMT -8
Hmm, looking at the picture of all the girls with Sasami getting center stage and her general expression she's the Chigara, right? Have to keep an eye of what girl to avoid.
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Post by planguy on Feb 3, 2017 5:28:16 GMT -8
I am looking at Mika with suspicion. There's some bad juju in that look.
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Post by planguy on Jun 28, 2016 14:36:16 GMT -8
So Chigara sucks. How can she be made to not suck? My worry about her is that she is going to continue to take center stage. What was done with her didn't really work and the developers are going to try to "fix" her, to vindicate themselves. The most likely way they are going to do this is to give her a darker interpretation because of hive mind shenanigans. Personally I think the best thing to do with her is make her as unobtrusive as possible. Make her a damn ghost. Like keep her a possible option but make it so that you really have to work for it. The Chigara Restoration path should be something rewarding but if you aren't pursuing it Kayto should ignore her. He shouldn't even angst about her.
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Post by planguy on Apr 6, 2016 22:06:14 GMT -8
Once upon a time she was seen as the canon girl. Oh what storied, beautiful times those were. We once expected gentle pushes towards a red haired goddess, a common route that we could ignore at leisure while we pursued our preferred waifu.
Then came the Usurper.
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Post by planguy on Apr 6, 2016 22:00:42 GMT -8
Thanks truebeliever . Indeed that was the main point I wanted to avert; I know that Lib Day is a result of it's ending. I mean, duh, of course it is. But the objective of this thread is to focus only on the writing on a purely technical standpoint, refusing whys, hows or comparisons with both expectations and other products. My objective is not to focus on the reasons behind it or justify anything, but merely provide the feedback on writing that Samu-kun missed so much. So, of course I'll talk about the ending, I mean, I already did up there. But it's also given that I won't talk about how the ending was received or about how that influenced the rest of the work; I believe that lies beyond the scope of this thread. I don't think a works ending is off topic when discussing it from a technical standpoint. The ending can often offer context for the rest of the work that can drastically effect how that work is viewed. Likewise knowing that a work is but one part of a serial story can also change how we view that work. We admittedly enter into the realm of speculation but if an ending of a story that is a chapter in a longer story limits the direction that story can go in the future we can draw negative conclusions. In a game where part of the advertised appeal is the ability to have an effect on the story, with one of the most visible signs of this being who the protagonist ends up with romantically, and you are hampered by choices that you wouldn't have made you could draw the conclusion that the story is unsatisfactory.
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Post by planguy on Mar 30, 2016 19:49:33 GMT -8
Given the episodic nature of the games I figure a good idea to handle romance routes is to split them up. A game has content for romancing, say, 3 of the available ladies. Major plot points are effected by who you are romantically involved with. There is also specific options to just not involve yourself with any of the ladies who are available in that particular game. Further games in the series could have variables like [game x love interest], [game y love interest] and [game z love interest]. Petty side note, reveal that the Chigara forced route was the result of mind control. Someone literally forced Kayto on that route.
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Post by planguy on Mar 30, 2016 19:38:08 GMT -8
Ava's "forced romantic entanglement" is backstory. Past Kayto isn't a character that you really get to decide what he does. Ava is the old flame character and childhood friend that you can reignite a romance with. Present Kayto's choices should be up to the player, not dictated to the player.
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Post by planguy on Mar 29, 2016 22:35:15 GMT -8
Wait, was the lesson that the developers learned "Include more H-scenes"? Alright, checked the Patreon and that looks like it was the lesson they took.
"It's still too early to say anything concrete but we are going to make a game with not as much game play and more HCGs. I hope it'll also be much longer than Liberation Day, I'm hoping we can make a game longer than Sunrider Academy this time."
For the love of god please reassess that lesson. People want choices, they weren't upset by a lack of HCGs. They want actual romance routes.
Is there hurt feelings amongst the developers? Do they think that people are ignoring their carefully constructed battle system? Do they think that people just want HCGs and they are going to bow to the lowest common denominator? I think people want a mix of a good battle system and an engaging story where your choices matter. Like, you decide if you trust a character or not. You decide if Kayto is attracted to someone or not. Of course there are plot events that happen no matter what but the choices and views that Kayto can have or hold should be up to the player.
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Post by planguy on Mar 20, 2016 16:22:02 GMT -8
Is this perhaps set up for the forced romance with Sola in the next Sunrider game? I mean, I like Sola, but again, Choice.
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Post by planguy on Mar 20, 2016 16:16:56 GMT -8
I don't mind dissenting opinions, nor I plan to really convince anyone, but on the concrete matter of sex; We're talking about two adults above 20 years old (one of which with a reasonable amount of experience, and the other an specially engineered body with who knows what priorities) in an universe with barely religious influence and probably hundred of ways to fight both STDs and unwanted pregnancies. And while they went from kissing to sex in one week they knew each other for at least month, and you can probably even argue that their relationship was ambiguous since before the Legion. Ava and Kayto had their first kiss together just before having sex, of all things. And really, it's kinda a given when in the previous situation scene they were already talking about kids and family. If you really want to slow down the whole relationship, no problem, everyone already said their point about it. However I find this fixation with sex a tad odd. I suppose it's useful to position your opponents as prudes, but I don't think the sex itself was a problem for people. People romantically involved have sex, sure. The problem is them being romantically involved.
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Post by planguy on Mar 20, 2016 12:53:46 GMT -8
While I liked Sunrider Academy the state of Liberation Day indicates that as much effort as possible must be expended on the core series if it is to improve.
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Post by planguy on Mar 20, 2016 12:49:14 GMT -8
Very nice discussion. All in all, my feelings are more on vaendryll's side, the extremely rushed romance did make sense even if it wasn't good per se. The proof for me is precisely how the Captain's relationship with Chigara shifted from going very slow to going very fast. In MoA and the beginning of Liberation day she was simply going for tea, helping the captain, etc. Even if she had feelings from months ago, it wasn't until kissing that things started picking up, and it was both because the captain desperately wanted to make a family and because Chigara allowed it in order to please him. If you take the "rushing" part then things start to fall apart as the romance starts being more similar to a normal and good one. Of course, it could have been executed better, the reason and timing for sex was terrible (though a week after starting going out is definitely normal on most relationships of 20+ people, it's more that the situation definitely wasn't suitable and the exact motivations very shaky), etc. But, while I would have probably done the dialogue different, the feeling of a "rushed" and "too perfect" relationship is kinda the point. More development would have been better and make things make more sense as an "irrational and foolish love", but the pacing itself of the relation and the ultrasacharine words would probably have to stay. Now, that does not mean it was not boring or bad; the mistake of Lib Day was not exactly this entire plot point, but relying only on this plot point. A plot point can be purposely bad in order to improve or set a future development, but what can't that game/book/VN/whatever expect is to focus exactly on that point. That's where Liberation Day's plot falls apart.So your side is effectively "This terrible thing was supposed to be terrible?" See, that reasoning for why this is acceptable I disagree with. Chigara's relationship with Kayto being poorly thought out on purpose doesn't change the fact that it should have been an option. It would be like in Mass Effect 1 you were forced into a romantic relationship with Ashley in order to make Virmire more dramatic, and on Virmire you weren't allowed the choice of who to save. You could have had the games core events play out, with the characters in the same spots while still giving the player character actual choices and agency. And if a "Romantic false lead" was necessary for Kayto's character growth it could have been interesting to have the "Romantic false lead" be a player choice.
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Post by planguy on Mar 20, 2016 0:19:58 GMT -8
In universe I don't think it's fair to put the blame solely on Kayto for his relationship with Chigara, removing her agency. Seems more likely that Chigara would be the one taking advantage of her captains emotional vulnerability. Consciously or subconsciously. More likely they were using each other, Kayto needing an emotional support and Chigara desperate to form a connection with the man she was infatuated with.
But again this should have been something the player had input on. Considering what is being done with her character what has happened seems like a nice first step in Chigara's route. On the common route it just adds too much baggage.
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Post by planguy on Mar 19, 2016 21:15:02 GMT -8
I think that moving forward deciding Kayto's emotional reactions to various events should be up to the player. We're shaping the kind of person Kayto is. Hopefully the reaction to Liberation Day is met with, "Oh, so that's where we went wrong." rather then "You just don't know what you like."
The outsider perspective has been granted and they don't like where this train is going. Is the game supposed to be a kinetic novel that you proceed through by winning at space battles? Or do your choices matter? Getting involved with Chigara wasn't a choice that should have been taken from the players control, the same way that you don't force the choice of murdering a ship full of space orphans on the player. The player should decide if Kayto is the kind of guy who would romance Chigara, if he is willing to destroy that ship to attain his goals.
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Post by planguy on Mar 19, 2016 15:00:10 GMT -8
Interesting you say that. I was thinking just earlier that a lot of the hate for the railroad chigara romance is likely because Shields is too much of a player stand-in. Showing him only so rarely and giving him so little personality in his own lines makes it both hard to imagine him falling for Chigara but also makes it feel like it's not Shields but the player who is being forced to have a relationship with a girl they avidly dislike. In nearly any other medium where a forced romance was a critical plot point (required for later events to make sense or even happen at all) the MC had a lot more characterization of his own. In Fate Stay Night for example the entire (fairly lengthy) prologue wasn't even from Emiya's perspective and he was voiced like an NPC! having a canon 'official' relationship for Geralt from The Witcher probably wouldn't raise nearly as many objections either.
personally, I took it as the whole thing revealing that Chigara (as we've come to know her) plainly was never a romanceable choice to begin with. at least as far as the player is concerned. I thought this to be an interesting thing from a meta perspective. there's sure to be a route representing her eventually, but that chigara will definitely be quite a different creature. Honestly I feel like the game devs just didn't really understand what kind of game their audience was expecting. They seemed to be expecting a game where their choices mattered. They expected a game where they were going to decide who Kayto ends up with. I mean, Commander Shepard didn't get a forced romance and though he is an escapist character he is still a character rather then a pure player cipher. There are people who also like this Chigara. The idea that this Chigara is going to get dropped sucks.
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Post by planguy on Mar 18, 2016 11:13:52 GMT -8
I think railroaded romance was, is and will be a mistake. Ideally this whole Chigara thing would be altered to be optional, but seeing as that is unlikely there should be options on how Kayto thinks about the relationship going forward. Chigara was my one true love, it's a tragedy that it ended as it did. What the hell was I thinking, looking back there was no way I was in love with her. Was I in love with her? What we had was real, but it's over.
Also, Chigara potentially being a yandere doesn't make her interesting. That just seems like set up to make her more plot important when she's already been forced down our throats enough.
Also, also, please no Chigara style forced romance arcs in the future. Plot events should not include romance, that should be up to the player.
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