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Post by Blackhead on Mar 30, 2016 21:20:11 GMT -8
No. No, I really think that's you. Hell, If I'm honest... I'm only doing this 'cause I kinda pity you at this point. You have close to 200 reviews where people say the story is what made the game feel off to them - with even the positive comments criticizing it, and loads of people saying that REMOVING the sex-scene would IMPROVE LibDay... and you actually are trying to pretend it's not true? That's not a difference of opinion - that's ignorance of fact. Plain and simple.  See... again, LibDay shoots that claim full of holes. If "it's no problem at all to transition from the Sunrider we have now to a more fanservice oriented game"... then why did LibDay fail? If people just want fanservice, they wouldn't have minded being forced through the Chigara thing because they would know more was coming - instead the vehemently rejected it in spite of knowing something different would come later. Why? Because people are not that stupid. If the game was that way from the start, they'd expect it and you'd have a different audience Again, yes it very much does stand in correlation - just having sex-scenes doesn't do anything unless you have narrative reason for it in the story. In more light-hearted, comedy-blended games like Majikoi or NobleWorks, you can get away with things like that because that's part of the genre - romantic-comedy. Sunrider is closer to Mass Effect - science-fiction fantasy, with romance being a smaller mechanic. Everyone who got LibDay also tried out MoA and FA beforehand because it was free - and they ALL LIKED IT BETTER. Even people who'd never played Academy felt LibDay lacked compared to MoA and FA, and neither of those games had any romance like LibDay did. Fanservice has been more a part of Sunrider as opposed to the focus, and changing that is just going to make the game, to be honest, either laughed off or shrugged off in favor of something different. Nekopura is, again, set in an entirely different genre then Sunrider, is published by a big-name developer, is a single title and is start-to-finish set in a comedic-hentai narrative. Literally everything about it narratively and setting-wise is different from Sunrider. Trying to use that as an example is not only the biggest strawman I've ever seen, but it begs the question of if you even know what "differing genres" even means. "Abundant sex and fanservice" doesn't create lasting impressions - "well-implemented and well-executed sex" does. Nekopura never tried to play itself as more then it was; a hentai-objectifying VN. Sunrider is not and did not, so your example is moot at best and completely wrong at worst. Again though - if that were the case, LibDay wouldn't have failed. Nobody would have asked the Sex be REMOVED/OPTIONAL there if that were the case. Nobody would have asked for more story over sex or asked that the romance be paced better if that were anywhere near true. They would have just waited for the next game with no fuss. Now for the obligatory rude remark; to me, the only thing this "foreshadows" ... is that you shouldn't ever go into marketing.  Because if you try to make "Sunrider 4" like Nekopura... people are going to go "why don't I just get Nekopura? What's unique about this?" It's not that I was taking it serious - it's just that at this point... well, honestly speaking, I feel like at best you just don't know the first thing about what made people like this game... and at worst that you simply think with your genitals when it comes to believing what makes an RPG good. I don't think it's that I'm too serious - I just don't think people are idiots like you seem to believe. You seem a little upset Sharr. I tend to joke around and get cynical when discussing ridiculous things like story vs. fanservice, if you took offense to my jokes I'm sorry  Just to get that straight. I also want to clarify that I'm pesonally strictly against going down the excessive "h-route." I have no idea why you're trying to shove me in that direction with statements like "that you simply think with your genitals when it comes to believing what makes an RPG good" Guess, I'll also have to overlook your remarks concerning me and not knowing what "genres" are. You clearly know that I have experience and that I'm actually well versed in terms of writing, and intended to give me a little (provoking) jab. If you really want to carry this on I'll hereby respond one last time concerning this subject, but know that I have no interest in keeping this going. "I feel like at best you just don't know the first thing about what made people like this game" I know well what (some) people like about Sunrider, and its for the same reasons that I'm still here. What I say all this time is, that reducing the game on the waifu aspect would be financially more lucrative than expanding upon gameplay + story. Nekop. is a great example for this concept - not because it's similar/comparable to the Sunrider we have now - but because it serves the same target audience as a potential "fanservice Sunrider." And that audience is enormous. Academy was undeniably a step towards "fanservice Sunrider" and it sold amazingly well, what I want to hear now are valid reasons why the main game shouldn't take the same route? Well, financially speaking there are no reasons. Adding gameplay, focusing on good writing, mecha CGs etc. is harder than to focus solely on the girls. LibDay was a flop - that's a fact. So why should Sunrider even bother with taking risks and potentially flop again? Why don't go the safe, cheap and easy route and focus only on waifus? Why not Academy 2.0? These are some sincere and honest questions I have for you, as a fan who despises Academy and is only here because of the main game. We essentially had the same discussion with Samu and Drath a while back, it was basically about how expensive it is to focus on gameplay and create+balance battles, and how much more story content Sunrider would have had if the devs would have put less focus on battles. We're taking this thought to an extreme an bring it full circle. fanservice (more profitable) > gameplay AND story. (in relation to the work you have to put in those factors respectively.) The "fanservice approach" works extremely well: nekop. (probably most succesfull VN on steam) and is also applicable to Sunrider (ex. Academy.) |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 30, 2016 23:05:26 GMT -8
You call that a big name developer? >_>
Nekopara huh..? I hate that VN as much as I hate cute cat girls. ... ... I-it's not like I like them or anything! I hate them! They're so stuupid! Stuuuuupid! But no seriously I hate it. ... ... ... ... Ahh, it's so adora-
?!
...
What are you looking at. Bigger then Love in Space, at least, if their budget is anything to go by - besides, that's a typo. I meant to say "publisher" which is Sekai Project, which Sunrider is also published by I think (though I admit I thought their role in it was bigger). Big name like that ensures it's going to get views, and unlike Sunrider it wasn't started crowdfunded project - it was a company-developed game all the way through. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 30, 2016 23:49:43 GMT -8
No. No, I really think that's you. Hell, If I'm honest... I'm only doing this 'cause I kinda pity you at this point. You have close to 200 reviews where people say the story is what made the game feel off to them - with even the positive comments criticizing it, and loads of people saying that REMOVING the sex-scene would IMPROVE LibDay... and you actually are trying to pretend it's not true? That's not a difference of opinion - that's ignorance of fact. Plain and simple. See... again, LibDay shoots that claim full of holes. If "it's no problem at all to transition from the Sunrider we have now to a more fanservice oriented game"... then why did LibDay fail? If people just want fanservice, they wouldn't have minded being forced through the Chigara thing because they would know more was coming - instead the vehemently rejected it in spite of knowing something different would come later. Why? Because people are not that stupid. If the game was that way from the start, they'd expect it and you'd have a different audience Again, yes it very much does stand in correlation - just having sex-scenes doesn't do anything unless you have narrative reason for it in the story. In more light-hearted, comedy-blended games like Majikoi or NobleWorks, you can get away with things like that because that's part of the genre - romantic-comedy. Sunrider is closer to Mass Effect - science-fiction fantasy, with romance being a smaller mechanic. Everyone who got LibDay also tried out MoA and FA beforehand because it was free - and they ALL LIKED IT BETTER. Even people who'd never played Academy felt LibDay lacked compared to MoA and FA, and neither of those games had any romance like LibDay did. Fanservice has been more a part of Sunrider as opposed to the focus, and changing that is just going to make the game, to be honest, either laughed off or shrugged off in favor of something different. Nekopura is, again, set in an entirely different genre then Sunrider, is published by a big-name developer, is a single title and is start-to-finish set in a comedic-hentai narrative. Literally everything about it narratively and setting-wise is different from Sunrider. Trying to use that as an example is not only the biggest strawman I've ever seen, but it begs the question of if you even know what "differing genres" even means. "Abundant sex and fanservice" doesn't create lasting impressions - "well-implemented and well-executed sex" does. Nekopura never tried to play itself as more then it was; a hentai-objectifying VN. Sunrider is not and did not, so your example is moot at best and completely wrong at worst. Again though - if that were the case, LibDay wouldn't have failed. Nobody would have asked the Sex be REMOVED/OPTIONAL there if that were the case. Nobody would have asked for more story over sex or asked that the romance be paced better if that were anywhere near true. They would have just waited for the next game with no fuss. Now for the obligatory rude remark; to me, the only thing this "foreshadows" ... is that you shouldn't ever go into marketing. Because if you try to make "Sunrider 4" like Nekopura... people are going to go "why don't I just get Nekopura? What's unique about this?" It's not that I was taking it serious - it's just that at this point... well, honestly speaking, I feel like at best you just don't know the first thing about what made people like this game... and at worst that you simply think with your genitals when it comes to believing what makes an RPG good. I don't think it's that I'm too serious - I just don't think people are idiots like you seem to believe. You seem a little upset Sharr. I tend to joke around and get cynical when discussing ridiculous things like story vs. fanservice, if you took offense to my jokes I'm sorry Just to get that straight. I also want to clarify that I'm pesonally strictly against going down the excessive "h-route." I have no idea why you're trying to shove me in that direction with statements like "that you simply think with your genitals when it comes to believing what makes an RPG good" Guess, I'll also have to overlook your remarks concerning me and not knowing what "genres" are. You clearly know that I have experience and that I'm actually well versed in terms of writing, and intended to give me a little (provoking) jab. If you really want to carry this on I'll hereby respond one last time concerning this subject, but know that I have no interest in keeping this going. "I feel like at best you just don't know the first thing about what made people like this game" I know well what (some) people like about Sunrider, and its for the same reasons that I'm still here. What I say all this time is, that reducing the game on the waifu aspect would be financially more lucrative than expanding upon gameplay + story. Nekop. is a great example for this concept - not because it's similar/comparable to the Sunrider we have now - but because it serves the same target audience as a potential "fanservice Sunrider." And that audience is enormous. Academy was undeniably a step towards "fanservice Sunrider" and it sold amazingly well, what I want to hear now are valid reasons why the main game shouldn't take the same route? Well, financially speaking there are no reasons. Adding gameplay, focusing on good writing, mecha CGs etc. is harder than to focus solely on the girls. LibDay was a flop - that's a fact. So why should Sunrider even bother with taking risks and potentially flop again? Why don't go the safe, cheap and easy route and focus only on waifus? Why not Academy 2.0? These are some sincere and honest questions I have for you, as a fan who despises Academy and is only here because of the main game. We essentially had the same discussion with Samu and Drath a while back, it was basically about how expensive it is to focus on gameplay and create+balance battles, and how much more story content Sunrider would have had if the devs would have put less focus on battles. We're taking this thought to an extreme an bring it full circle. fanservice (more profitable) > gameplay AND story. (in relation to the work you have to put in those factors respectively.) The "fanservice approach" works extremely well: nekop. (probably most succesfull VN on steam) and is also applicable to Sunrider (ex. Academy.) No, that's just it - I'm not upset. I'm blunt because I'm a blunt person, not because of... well, whatever emotional drama it is that you seem to be fishing for here . So let me set something straight in turn for you - it was never your jokes or whatever. I simply flat-out disagree with your argument's entire premise. You were basically pushing a "sex = sales" argument, a "people only care about sex" belief and a "people will forgive bad writing if it looks good" claim. You outright said that's how it would work REGARDLESS of how you personally feel about it, and I disagreed. I also opted to reflect your passive-aggressive humor in comments - if you found those more or less "shoving" then your own comments, you're probably the one that was missing the humor here. Not that I'd blame you - I can type a very deadpan tone  . Problem though is that... no - I really DON'T. I don't see how I or anyone could "clearly know" when you've done nothing to prove it - you've spent the past few comments comparing Nekopura of all things to this out of some kind of passive-aggressive humor, and only after being pressed are you dropping that. The thing with that suggestion, though? That's pretty much exactly what was done with Chigara in LibDay - and it was not received well. The fact that so many people protested it is, again, pretty conclusive proof that reducing it is NOT going to be more lucrative considering how much LibDay bled out financially - if your theory was right, LibDay's romance wouldn't have been so badly received, let alone critiqued as one of the biggest flaws in the entire game. What I'm saying is that LibDay wouldn't have gotten the complaints it did if what you said really reflected what the majority want from it. The issue is that it is expressly NOT - it's actually about the worst example you could possibly use because that's an entirely different audience altogether. A "fanservice Sunrider" would not be received anywhere near as well as you're thinking because you're advocating they strip out what makes it unique - you're pushing that they make it "just another run-of-the-mill mindless fanservice game." And with the market already saturated with those, what's going to make Sunrider stand out more then Nekopura if you try to force it into the same breed? Academy was not representative of the main series. It was created specifically to showcase comedy-romance - it was an entirely different genre then the main games. And said "reasons" were already cited at length - by everyone who had a problem with the romance in LibDay; - It ruins any enjoyment of the romance - It trivializes the bond the captain had with whoever's in it - It's so forced and tasteless that it literally makes people wonder why they didn't just go and get an actual comedy-romance-objectification game instead of Sunrider - It actually grinds against the main plot because it's handled so poorly See, this is what you kept repeatedly missing and why I said you didn't seem to comprehend the difference in genres - you don't look like you know the difference between a character-driven narrative (Academy, where lightheartedness and character-interaction drive everything) and a story-driven one (Main games, where everything is driven by the overreaching story and the tone is generally more balanced and paced). LibDay's response seems a pretty good financial reason to me - a glimpse of the downturn that would result from making it just fanservice without any actual narrative point to it. It was expressly because LibDay focused solely on a Chigara-centric narrative that so many people said it FAILED, which is why your claiming it magically wouldn't do so a second time with a different girl(s) baffles me. What you're suggesting is a cycle of making poorer and poorer games to compensate for less and less income as the audience that supported it give up on it. LibDay was a flop - so why are you trying to push for repeating the exact same thing that so many people claimed sunk it? Focusing on just the waifus without proper narrative reason for it/forcing it arbitrarily - that was what happened with Chigara , AND IT FLOPPED! Sunrider is not Academy - it's two different genres with two separate narrative styles, both of which have things that do or do not work for said narratives. I said what I did because you kept making the honestly-boneheaded move of generalizing everything to such a severe degree. Also - not going to mention you were here purely for the gameplay and not the story at all, huh?  Again, LibDay pretty conclusively disproved this since all anyone asked of the story was to REMOVE the sex-scenes. Taking it to the extreme would bottom it out - which is why I say again; please don't go into marketing. The fanservice approach works for romantic-comedy parodies. Sunrider's main game doesn't exist in that genre with that narrative, and you can't just splice it in like it's nothing - it will come across as pandering at best. People have said they would prefer more story over and over if given the choice - why is it you don't want to believe that? |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 31, 2016 0:57:25 GMT -8
...I'm just going to put some link here and there to make the discussion more interesting. In all cases, the original Sunrider had a big number of owners because it appealed to a lot of different markets; with a price tag now however things get uglier and Samu-kun must simply decide what to prioritize. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 31, 2016 1:34:55 GMT -8
...I'm just going to put some link here and there to make the discussion more interesting. In all cases, the original Sunrider had a big number of owners because it appealed to a lot of different markets; with a price tag now however things get uglier and Samu-kun must simply decide what to prioritize. Sorry to naysay, but... I don't see how those change anything. Like, at all. "High quality anime sex" isn't the same as "pure fanservice all the time", last I checked - you can throw boobs at the viewer all you want, but you still have to make them care or else they'll go somewhere that will. Same for the "for space girlfriend" bit, really - you kinda need the story and narrative (or at least for the romance) to be engaging or else it doesn't entice. Again, Chigara in LibDay kinda proved that. |
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Post by sehanine on Mar 31, 2016 21:05:15 GMT -8
The only other link I'd share that I feel is relevant to "sex sells" vs "story sells" (which is, of course, a false dichotomy) is this one. It feels odd arguing small points with Sharr because I'm pretty sure that we want the same thing, or at the very least I also want there to be a focus on good story with meaningful choices. I just also want a development choice made between either including H content that's well-written along with routes for a few different girls or just abandoning the pretense of Sunrider being eroge. I'm still of the opinion that Academy's scenes were done well apart from one line in Ava's last H scene that made me cringe ("acreage after acreage", oh man). With regard to "meaningful" choices: I should have been clear on what I meant. I was primarily thinking of impact on the script. In Mass Effect, Kaiden vs Ashley is meaningful because it's a choice that persists and has to be dealt with not only throughout the rest of the first game, but comes up in 2 and affects which characters are available to your party in 3. The impact of that single choice is huge. Other choices from ME1/2 are revisited in later games, as well, though I think it's beyond the scope of this thread to list them. I don't feel that Sunrider has many choices like that (and for good reason, really; they increase workload and can snowball), at least not ones where the consequences have actually played out. As far as choices that have a strong moral/narrative impact but are of limited scope to the script, sure, you can affect what the Admiral tells Kayto about what the Alliance will do with Ongess (and Ava's lines regarding how the media responds to the events on Ongess) or the effects of Versta on the Alliance joining the war, but those choices aren't (or haven't yet been) revisited in the script of later games (the only released one being LibDay). The Saveddiplomats flag is referenced a lot in the FA/MoA script, so I'll concede that as a 4th significant choice (although it doesn't seem to be referenced in LibDay and much of what it affects is your pilot's reactions immediately after Versta). I looked through the LibDay script and I can't find any reference to the OngessTruth flag at all, so it seems to be contained to the two effects that I mentioned above. And no, it isn't fair in the slightest for me to compare Sunrider to games like Mass Effect or, for another example, The Witcher with regard to the number of choices/routes/endings available. It's just something to shoot for apart from ME3's ending. The following is an actual spoiler for anyone who hasn't read through the FA/MoA/LibDay scripts: One curious thing, which all of you that've looked through the scripts are already aware, is that many decisions increment/decrement either captain_moralist or captain_prince (and the various girls' affection scores). The only place I can find in the FA/MoA script where it affects anything is which of the ending decisions requires command points; moralist requires cmd to stop Ava from activating the Vanguard whereas prince requires cmd to make her activate the Vanguard (or the Wishall can stand in for cmd in either case). It's an interesting interaction between the combat system and the story, but I'm hoping there will be story branches affected by those two variables that command points can't override. It feels like too many variables/plot points tie into that one decision. I would expect moralist/prince to affect the available menu choices the way that Paragon/Renegade points do in ME, Light/Dark points do in KotOR, etc. The only place that I can find where affection with any of the girls affects anything so far is for Cosette. In FA/MoA, it affects a couple lines of her dialogue at Ongess. In LibDay, you can again use the Wishall to negate the effects of the affection (this is the only potential use of the Wishall that I can find in LibDay), but it determines if she lives or dies in the prologue. I think it'll be high time to cash in some of these affection/prince/moralist points in the next Sunrider game. But I digress. Adding choices of limited scope is a careful balancing act: add too few and the game feels linear (like LibDay did); add too many and it feels like none of your choices really matter (you might make a choice that saves or destroys a planet or parallel universe, but if no one ever mentions it again and you don't see any long-term or delayed consequences, who cares?). I agree that more, in the form of Kayto's reactions and side quest choices, should have been included in LibDay to give it a feel similar to FA/MoA. After reading dozens of Steam reviews, I'm still of the opinion that Academy influenced more people's expectations than you seem to believe (and yeah, I mentioned in my first post both that it had affected my expectations and that those expectations were unreasonable). The fact that there's a forced romance is one of the foremost complaints, like you said... and along with it often goes the complaint that there are no routes for any of the other girls. Maybe it's just the people like me who thought LibDay would have routes (at least early in the development; as it got closer and closer to release and the betas didn't have anything resembling romantic options, it became obvious). If you're just talking about the "diehards" who have been with Sunrider since the Kickstarter began, then yeah, I don't know what those people were expecting since only some reviewers mention when exactly they discovered Sunrider. I'd be curious to know how many people played FA/MoA only after playing Academy. Strange as it may sound, I played FA, then Academy, then MoA. I'm also curious where the intent for different paths for different girls in the main Sunrider games was actually stated by Samu-kun or anyone else on the dev team. Don't get me wrong; the indicators that they'll exist are overwhelming, both systemically and in the games' presentation. I'm just looking for a link with a quote. I'll keep searching, but if anyone else finds one, I'd appreciate knowing.  It's late and I've stared at the Sunrider scripts enough for one night. Thanks again! - Sehanine |
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Post by Xechran on Mar 31, 2016 23:33:54 GMT -8
With regard to "meaningful" choices: I should have been clear on what I meant. I was primarily thinking of impact on the script. In Mass Effect, Kaiden vs Ashley See, I would hold that out as an example of a choice done poorly. In simple terms, as you described it here the choice is 'Save person A or person B'. The whole scenario is presented that way in game as well. It could have, and should have given the military nature of the game, been presented as secure the perimeter and egress or secure the objective. Of course, if you do present things in that light theres no choice at all. I went back and replayed that mission the first time through because I honestly thought I had missed something important but, no, they actually set it up that poorly. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 1, 2016 1:42:40 GMT -8
The only other link I'd share that I feel is relevant to "sex sells" vs "story sells" (which is, of course, a false dichotomy) is this one. It feels odd arguing small points with Sharr because I'm pretty sure that we want the same thing, or at the very least I also want there to be a focus on good story with meaningful choices. I just also want a development choice made between either including H content that's well-written along with routes for a few different girls or just abandoning the pretense of Sunrider being eroge. I'm still of the opinion that Academy's scenes were done well apart from one line in Ava's last H scene that made me cringe ("acreage after acreage", oh man). With regard to "meaningful" choices: I should have been clear on what I meant. I was primarily thinking of impact on the script. In Mass Effect, Kaiden vs Ashley is meaningful because it's a choice that persists and has to be dealt with not only throughout the rest of the first game, but comes up in 2 and affects which characters are available to your party in 3. The impact of that single choice is huge. Other choices from ME1/2 are revisited in later games, as well, though I think it's beyond the scope of this thread to list them. I don't feel that Sunrider has many choices like that (and for good reason, really; they increase workload and can snowball), at least not ones where the consequences have actually played out. As far as choices that have a strong moral/narrative impact but are of limited scope to the script, sure, you can affect what the Admiral tells Kayto about what the Alliance will do with Ongess (and Ava's lines regarding how the media responds to the events on Ongess) or the effects of Versta on the Alliance joining the war, but those choices aren't (or haven't yet been) revisited in the script of later games (the only released one being LibDay). The Saveddiplomats flag is referenced a lot in the FA/MoA script, so I'll concede that as a 4th significant choice (although it doesn't seem to be referenced in LibDay and much of what it affects is your pilot's reactions immediately after Versta). I looked through the LibDay script and I can't find any reference to the OngessTruth flag at all, so it seems to be contained to the two effects that I mentioned above. And no, it isn't fair in the slightest for me to compare Sunrider to games like Mass Effect or, for another example, The Witcher with regard to the number of choices/routes/endings available. It's just something to shoot for apart from ME3's ending. The following is an actual spoiler for anyone who hasn't read through the FA/MoA/LibDay scripts: One curious thing, which all of you that've looked through the scripts are already aware, is that many decisions increment/decrement either captain_moralist or captain_prince (and the various girls' affection scores). The only place I can find in the FA/MoA script where it affects anything is which of the ending decisions requires command points; moralist requires cmd to stop Ava from activating the Vanguard whereas prince requires cmd to make her activate the Vanguard (or the Wishall can stand in for cmd in either case). It's an interesting interaction between the combat system and the story, but I'm hoping there will be story branches affected by those two variables that command points can't override. It feels like too many variables/plot points tie into that one decision. I would expect moralist/prince to affect the available menu choices the way that Paragon/Renegade points do in ME, Light/Dark points do in KotOR, etc. The only place that I can find where affection with any of the girls affects anything so far is for Cosette. In FA/MoA, it affects a couple lines of her dialogue at Ongess. In LibDay, you can again use the Wishall to negate the effects of the affection (this is the only potential use of the Wishall that I can find in LibDay), but it determines if she lives or dies in the prologue. I think it'll be high time to cash in some of these affection/prince/moralist points in the next Sunrider game. But I digress. Adding choices of limited scope is a careful balancing act: add too few and the game feels linear (like LibDay did); add too many and it feels like none of your choices really matter (you might make a choice that saves or destroys a planet or parallel universe, but if no one ever mentions it again and you don't see any long-term or delayed consequences, who cares?). I agree that more, in the form of Kayto's reactions and side quest choices, should have been included in LibDay to give it a feel similar to FA/MoA. After reading dozens of Steam reviews, I'm still of the opinion that Academy influenced more people's expectations than you seem to believe (and yeah, I mentioned in my first post both that it had affected my expectations and that those expectations were unreasonable). The fact that there's a forced romance is one of the foremost complaints, like you said... and along with it often goes the complaint that there are no routes for any of the other girls. Maybe it's just the people like me who thought LibDay would have routes (at least early in the development; as it got closer and closer to release and the betas didn't have anything resembling romantic options, it became obvious). If you're just talking about the "diehards" who have been with Sunrider since the Kickstarter began, then yeah, I don't know what those people were expecting since only some reviewers mention when exactly they discovered Sunrider. I'd be curious to know how many people played FA/MoA only after playing Academy. Strange as it may sound, I played FA, then Academy, then MoA. I'm also curious where the intent for different paths for different girls in the main Sunrider games was actually stated by Samu-kun or anyone else on the dev team. Don't get me wrong; the indicators that they'll exist are overwhelming, both systemically and in the games' presentation. I'm just looking for a link with a quote. I'll keep searching, but if anyone else finds one, I'd appreciate knowing. It's late and I've stared at the Sunrider scripts enough for one night. Thanks again! - Sehanine The reason I'd disagree is because the ability to choose one of the girls/that it would be like a route system was something that was anticipated and even teased as a future feature in the main game long before Academy ever came out. If anything, expecting romances from Sunrider was what lead to the creation of Academy, not the other way around. Look at the original kickstarter for evidence of that. |
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Post by shieldwall on Apr 3, 2016 23:47:18 GMT -8
So, I've finished Liberation day at least. Let's post some thoughts. TLDR: A good game, yet not as good as First Arrival/Mask of Arcadius. It felt a bit rushed. Liked:- Importing the choices from the previous games. Didn't expect that, but it was a great touch to the storytelling and really gave a strong sense of continuity. - Use of the Wishall. For all the ones that kept it was surely nice to know that their choice of not using it wasn't a wasted one. - Battles. They were REALLY challenging (played at Captain mode), and Alice required some serious tweaking to win. Excellent the choice of allowing quicksaves, shops and upgrades even in the moments before the battle, that allows players to reallocate resources should their initial setup fail too hard. - The story. It lacked choices, yes, but the plot was a lot more complex than expected, the warring factions well-depicted and realistic and the whole Chigara/Asaga relationship turned out quite great. Perhaps it needed some more polishing, but overall I think it was a fine script. Disliked:- Lack of choices. The railroad romance was indeed well made but I'd have liked the opportunity to choose the girl to romance (if any!), and the choices over the dialogues were... not so relevant after all. Yes, you may tell Asaga that you trust Chigara but in the end it didn't change anything, so what was the point? It just feels that the only meaningful choice was whether to save or kill Cosette, and you could only do it if you kept the Wishall. - Lack of optional missions. There were no missions to choose from, nor time-sensitive objectives that would have disappeared if not pursued immediatly. It was a feature that really helped the game longevity in first arrival/mask of Arcadius and I'm quite sad that you chose to remove them. - Lack of ship interactions! Why can't I speak with the girls in the rooms anymore between missions? It was funny, gave you the time to know them better and improved the feeling of living on a starship. And it was optional, so if you didn't want it you could rush straight for the story missions. Neutral:- Put an option to switch from hentai mode to "clean" mode. It could be quite awkward if your mom walked in during an unexpected sex screen - The game felt a bit short, overall. I realize that you have budget and time issues, but for the next game I'd like to play some more battle - I'd like to see more unique settings in the space battles. With debries to hide behind, obstacles, evocative images in the background... Mask of Arcadius really had some great concepts there, Liberation day just feels a bit meh. |
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Post by martin on Apr 7, 2016 11:00:12 GMT -8
New guy saying hello. Ok...I never play these kind of games. Tried some in the past, but the content, characters, game format and story never appealed to me. It was all too vanilla, too boring and too "pink". Then I finished a game that I really liked, so -knowing I had to wait over a week for the release of DS3, and having a void to fill- I happened to come across a PIRATED version of "Sunrider - Liberation Day". I liked the promotional poster and decided to give it a go, seeing as it wouldn't really cost me anything other than my time *YARR*. Then I found out that I should play something called Mask of Arcadius (freeware) first to make sense of it all...and almost decided to ignore both games because it seemed a bother. I just had to try it out for a minute first.......I've played for several days now, finished both games, tried out different conversational decisions, rabidly googled for progress on the next chapter, currently stalking the Patreon profile for news, decided to actually BUY THE GAME on Steam to show my support of this marvelous series (plus, my conscience wouldn't have it any other way)...and now joined the herd on the forum. For justice!
There's so much I want to write about this game! There's sci-fi, human darkness, sugary sweet moe, tears, drama, blood and violence, romance, heartbreaking plot twists, tiny amounts of nudity and eroticism that just feels right...and a promise of something more in future chapters. I absolutely loved this game, and now I want more.
At first I thought there would be multiple romance routes (it just made sense), so I was surprised when it seemed like I'd end up with Chigara in spite of my decisions. However, it didn't take long before I was totally cool with her. Her character got under my skin. Now I know there aren't any other routes as of yet, and that's the biggest con with the game IMO. A forced romance path (no matter how thoroughly Chigara managed to melt my heart) in such a VN is unheard of. When everything else is so good, there's no good reason for LiS to hold back....unless it's for story related purposes that'll eventually lead to more routes in a future release.
I liked the "board game" battles and its animations, but a couple of times they just felt like boring fillers keeping me from the good stuff. IMO they could need a bit more flare, but I don't have any exact suggestions.
On a different (but not less serious) note, I think the game would profit from a slight increase in fanservice. Seriously. Nothing too pervy, as I quite like the innocent tone so far (despite Claude trying her best), but...maybe more of what's already there? If you understand what I'm trying to say. Plus: a whole spaceship crew, consisting of nothing but young women all eyeing for the captain...logic dictates that they need to step up their game.
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Post by chargedvanguard on Apr 8, 2016 15:59:03 GMT -8
I have to say that while i found the gameplay aspects enjoyable and a step up from MoA, the story left much to be desired. Separating the store and research funds was a very welcome addition in my opinion, I often refrained to visit the store in the past installments to preserve funds to invest in more permanent upgrades from the research, so I could see a lot more flexibility this time to use the options from the store. The cap on command points also changed the dynamics of battle when compared to MoA, can't keep hoarding CP for future "warp and vanguard every turn" strategy, the unlimited range for the vanguard cannon combined with splash damage made things a tad too easy though if you use the gravity gun to position the Sunrider well. From reading some posts in other topics it seems some upgrades are gated behind some past decisions, is there a list somewhere one could check about these?
The story however seemed very rushed, and some actions from certain characters made me shake my head more often than I would like to. For example, when Kayto keeps hailing Chigara as a hero after the Ion storm battle, that was incredibly stupid considering the tense situation involving her identity as a prototype still being under major scrutiny by pretty much everyone in the ship. She did her job as chief engineer, just like everyone else did theirs, why the special treatment? I mean Asaga had a pivotal role in the Far Port battle before and no such celebration was held, same could be said about Ava sinking the Legion if you make that choice. Both Ava and Kayto failing to notice the rift forming between the crew also baffles me. The forced Chigara romance certainly didn't score any points either, I understand that it was kinda of necessary so that the Asaga going berserk and the ending could take place as it did, but still leaves a bitter taste on mouth. Also, why did young Maray's ghost show up when Kayto was ramming the Sunrider into the Machiavelli Actual? Isn't she already grown up in this universe?
On the flip side, I like how the ending pretty much reset everything to pre-LD situation characters-wise while the overall situation is much more desperate with the Alliance and PACT going into full scale war and we don't even have a ship anymore and are pretty much hated by everyone (poor Sunrider, why did you have to go like that...). If you think about it, the sensible thing to do would have been to withdraw from Cera and go into hiding to fight another day, but Kayto wasn't really of sound mind at the time was he? Hopefully whatever Ava can cook up from the Ryuvian moon will be a suitable Sunrider 2.0 (with the upgrades please, that vanguard splash wasn't cheap!). That new PACT commander seems interesting, like an Ava counterpart for Fontana, they really are in need of more competent commanders on their side (guess that she is somewhat like Claude from what Fontana said though?).
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Post by sephiroth12285 on Apr 12, 2016 17:58:15 GMT -8
I finally finished playing through the game myself and I wrote a review on Steam right here.
Steam Review
I reduced the amount of spoilers, but as I noted I did enjoy the character interactions and elements of the story but when compared to the previous installments this game felt...short and the battles were too few event with the side missions. I felt more could have been done for the game overall, but it has room for vast improvement when time comes for the next title and my expectations are high. I liked the new ending better through, but I still feel it could have been longer or added in some more battles or side missions at least. |
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Post by shieldwall on Apr 14, 2016 5:41:42 GMT -8
You were basically pushing a "sex = sales" argument, a "people only care about sex" belief and a "people will forgive bad writing if it looks good" claim. You outright said that's how it would work REGARDLESS of how you personally feel about it, and I disagreed. I also opted to reflect your passive-aggressive humor in comments - if you found those more or less "shoving" then your own comments, you're probably the one that was missing the humor here. Not that I'd blame you - I can type a very deadpan tone . Although true that sex is always selling, I agree that it's all a matter of audience. I don't mind graphic sex in a game, and yet I utterly despise sex-oriented visual novels. Why? Because I find them boring. I played several VNs before giving up with the whole genre, and the reason is that 8 hours of written dialogues with 5-6 choices is not a fun way to spend my time. And sex scenes... ugh. Neverending paragraphs of the same stereotyped words we read in every hentai over and over, with some unnerving teenager moan in the background. When I played Konosora I had to kill the sound and fast skip through the sex scenes because I just couldn't bear to waste that much time reading what happens when two 16-years old have sex: I already know what happens during sex, thank you very much. Yet, I liked Sunrider Academy. Why? 1) It was a game, not a book. You had stuff to do, skills to level up, people to talk to, money to hoard. 2) Sex scenes were there, but they were kept slim enough to not become annoying. 3) Even if the romantic interactions slowed the pace of the game, it blended better than into a standard visual novel. A VN is slow all the time because it's always about reading, but in a game like SA the dialogues mixed with the gameplay and it felt lighter and more interactive. So, yes, sex sells. But if I wanted sex I'd just read some hentai, a product that's already structured to offer me the largest amount of graphic sex with the slimmest possible plot: it's more efficient and takes like 5 minutes to read. But if I buy Liberation Day I expect tactical missions, upgrades and romances that may include a couple of fanservice/sex scenes, why not, but I'm definitely NOT looking for Nekopara Space Edition because 8 hours of that is way too heavy for me. |
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Post by longtimelurker on Apr 15, 2016 13:53:22 GMT -8
Hey there folks, have been following this series for a while now (as my name suggests), and I'm sorry to say that I really didn't like the last entry in the series as much as the others in the past. First of all, length: it was much shorter than expected, both in terms of battles and story. Second, pacing and script: everything seems a bit disjointed this time around, specially the side missions with Ava kinda saying "Oh you gotta do these side missions before going to the battle of Cera just because the game will be even shorter otherwise". Claude faked her death and no one gave much of a sh*t either, I expected at least an interlude in between the battles where they would a memorial for her while the ships were resupplying or something. That Asaga/Chigara situation was also extremely forced with Kayto being so dere dere with Chigara in front of everyone and making a situation that is already bad with the suspicion on her being a traitor due to her nature as a prototype even worse, while completely ignoring the chances in the behavior of Asaga and the rift forming within the ship. Third, the ending kinda of baffles me, did we seriously just blew the Sunrider into oblivion in a suicide charge just because Kayto kinda lost it when Chigara died? Couldn't Ava have slapped some sense into him of how foolish that move was? Obviously we only have a next game because of plot armor... guess they spent too much time polishing the art and voices instead of the writing.
The battles were okay, the only one to give me a real hard time was the ion storm one because of the inability to use missiles and that the Sunrider is unavailable on the first turns, but then I found out about Kryska's drawfire ability and all was good. The cap on command points is kinda of annoying but being able to give more than one order per turn balances that nicely. Found the Nightmare Ascendant easier than than the Legion though, kinda ironic when Alice says that the Legion was only a toy and her ryder was the real deal haha. The Ryuvian Falcon was a neat unit too, hope when can use them on the future games. Also, not sure if separating the funds for the store and upgrades was a good idea, the game becomes a bit too easy in the end to the point I didn't even know what to do with all the money I had, even though I had access to all those liquid ongessite upgrades and cloaking device for Icari too.
While I'm disappointed with this one entry, I have faith that the future games can still salvage the situation after the revised ending, even with that bit about Claude being akin to a God being unnecessary in my opinion (why not simply make her a time traveler via technology or something?). Hopefully the new Sunrider will be similar to the one that got destroyed and we can still use the vanguard cannon, gotta love that stuff. Btw just remembered that the japanese voices were pretty an irrelevant addition from my PoV, the english team was competent and I had already gotten used to the voices on the characters so I just switched back to MoA voices when the option was added. That new vanguard animation is nice, but Kayto "Fire" command seems a bit strange when compared to the MoA one. Guess that's all for feedback, good luck with your work!
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Because if you try to make "Sunrider 4" like Nekopura... people are going to go "why don't I just get Nekopura? What's unique about this?" 
Just to get that straight.
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