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Post by mcz117 on Feb 9, 2016 5:50:46 GMT -8
The title is self explanatory. Although I am glad that the fans of Japanese VA got what they wanted I would be really bummed out if the original English cast wasn't present as those are the voices I associate with the characters from Sunrider.
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Post by vaendryl on Feb 9, 2016 6:11:34 GMT -8
I'm pretty sure are gone at least until somebody mods them back in.
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Post by mcz117 on Feb 9, 2016 7:45:03 GMT -8
I'm pretty sure are gone at least until somebody mods them back in. Aw hell that really blows And I was so looking forward to hearing them again. Ava's, Icari's, Asaga's and Claude's voice actors are so much fun to listen to or have legitimately good VA. I will miss them dearly
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Post by vaendryl on Feb 9, 2016 8:10:14 GMT -8
maybe the japanese voices will grow on you too. they're pretty good, I think.
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Post by mcz117 on Feb 10, 2016 11:35:08 GMT -8
maybe the japanese voices will grow on you too. they're pretty good, I think. Well I don't have a much of a choice now, do I? Contrary to most people I actually am in for the story and gameplay and I hope this will not negatively affect my enjoyment of the game. You see my problem is that for example in Warriors Orochi 3 on PS4 there are also no English VA (understandable, the game is HUGE and the European audience is pretty small so Koei Tecmo can't fully localize every damn spin-off game, I ain't mad at them) and I can't focus on the intense gameplay AND read the subtitles at the same time, I literally can't, it's impossible (almost). At least here you will always (I hope) have the time to read them subs so you won't miss anything. I know my point is mute since the decision has been made and there will be no English VA, but I wanted to say what I said. Have a nice day, lads and good luck with your projects.
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Post by Nemjen on Feb 10, 2016 15:02:58 GMT -8
Would it not be possible for LiS to just publish the original sound files separately with a short tutorial for users who wish to use them rather than relying on the modding scene creating it? After all they already have the assets available on their end, this might leave a few gaps in audio if there is not an English alternative but I am sure people will be able to look past that / leave the Japanese voice overs for those segments. The users who would like to use the English voices are not looking to spite the work / effort that was put in recently for the recordings, but rather it is their preference and it is quite a simple thing to fulfill to improve their experience. Take Megadimension Neptunia V2 for instance, in the West it is by default using English VAs but also contains an option to change this to Japanese through the use of a free day one DLC. I will be using the Japanese voice overs given the choice but I feel it is something that should be given some serious consideration.
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Post by mcz117 on Feb 11, 2016 0:04:36 GMT -8
The OG English files are stored in the Sunrider folder as basic MP3s, I know because I used them to mod League of Legends. So, if Sunrider 2 will use the same system of storing and using sound files then there will be zero problems (you can barely call it moding honestly), however, Sunrider only has voices for battles and from what I gathered from FAQ it seems that the entire Sunrider 2 will be voiced, all the dialogues, which they obviously don't have English equivalents as of this date (and I highly doubt they ever will at this point). It's ok though, I accepted the fact that there will be Japanese VOs, at least I will have the time to read the subtitles (hopefully).
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Post by Nemjen on Feb 11, 2016 0:49:01 GMT -8
mcz117 : Aye it's easy to do but it is still a nice gesture (for all original English assets) if a user see's that the devs are giving options as well as guiding them. Or at least that is how I am reading this thread, I think we all the knew that we wouldn't be getting full Japanese and English VA'ing.
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Post by Marx-93 on Feb 11, 2016 2:55:16 GMT -8
I don't think they can't do it directly, for the same reason they can't update the original Sunrider with the new sprites (license things, as one is freeware and the other a commercial release). However, like mcz117 said it should be fairly trivial to extract the original voicefiles. Given that it seems Samu-kun also wants Lib Day to be easy to mod, implementing them should also be easy (and at least in the DL release of the Beta, most files including the script are pretty accessible, so there shouldn't be a problem).
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Post by RedShirt047 on Feb 11, 2016 17:14:30 GMT -8
I'll wait until an English VA version is either released or can be modded before buying the game if that's the case.Mostly because the English VAs deserve more work given how well they did it in the first two portions. Hell, it seems like a bit of a backstab to NOT have them in the final chapter.
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Post by Nagashofchaos on Feb 11, 2016 17:26:37 GMT -8
I'll wait until an English VA version is either released or can be modded before buying the game if that's the case.Mostly because the English VAs deserve more work given how well they did it in the first two portions. Hell, it seems like a bit of a backstab to NOT have them in the final chapter. Well I'll give you a hint as a backer, this isn't the final chapter :3. You wanna know why, look at his twitter comments and the very last Q&A mark on Liberation Day's page. Also it's a complete Japanese voice over for Lib Day (including Visual novel dialogue, which wasn't even present in the earlier chapters). PS. couldn't figure out a way to reduce the harshness of the answer; sorry if I come off that way. For any other person who can't find the part mentioning additional parts here you go. Is this the last installment? Sunrider 4Ever. Until we run out of money and go out of business anyways. Welp.
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Post by RedShirt047 on Feb 11, 2016 17:30:35 GMT -8
I'll wait until an English VA version is either released or can be modded before buying the game if that's the case.Mostly because the English VAs deserve more work given how well they did it in the first two portions. Hell, it seems like a bit of a backstab to NOT have them in the final chapter. Well I'll give you a hint as a backer, this isn't the final chapter :3. You wanna know why, look at his twitter comments and the very last Q&A mark on Liberation Day's page. Also it's a complete Japanese voice over for Lib Day (including Visual novel dialogue, which wasn't even present in the earlier chapters). PS. couldn't figure out a way to reduce the harshness of the answer; sorry if I come off that way. I've been having a hell of a time finding answers. So any hint in the right direction is welcome. I still stand-by my statement though. Also, some links would help. I'm not on Twitter and have no idea how to search on it.
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Post by Tanker4444 on Feb 11, 2016 20:49:18 GMT -8
maybe the japanese voices will grow on you too. they're pretty good, I think. Well I don't have a much of a choice now, do I? Contrary to most people I actually am in for the story and gameplay and I hope this will not negatively affect my enjoyment of the game. You see my problem is that for example in Warriors Orochi 3 on PS4 there are also no English VA (understandable, the game is HUGE and the European audience is pretty small so Koei Tecmo can't fully localize every damn spin-off game, I ain't mad at them) and I can't focus on the intense gameplay AND read the subtitles at the same time, I literally can't, it's impossible (almost). At least here you will always (I hope) have the time to read them subs so you won't miss anything. I know my point is mute since the decision has been made and there will be no English VA, but I wanted to say what I said. Have a nice day, lads and good luck with your projects. I too am incredibly disappointed with the decision to make it japanese VA only. the voices feel like they're needlessly high pitched and some are a little grating. Its my understanding that using a high pitch tone is normal for japanases VAs, is that what is going on here or am I totally off? Maybe someone can fill me in on why so many wanted japanese VAs in the first place? I´m not a huge VN fan so everyone please forgive my ignorance here but I almost get the feeling that the japanese VA was felt like it was needed to legitimize Sunrider? That seems bonkers to me but as someone outside the VN bubble I may just be getting it completely wrong here. The fact that it was in english from the start was one of the selling points Sunrider had going for it.
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Post by redemyr on Feb 11, 2016 21:19:29 GMT -8
Whenever there's an option to either have English or Japanese voices I always go for the English ones (unless they are just horrible), simply because I can understand them.
In this particular case I liked them well enough, except Ava's "our hold's beginning to fracture".
That said, even though I'm fairly new to VNs in general I have played several of them and all with Jap VAs. And even though I can't understand anything but the ohaios and what not, they do convey the feeligs of the situation very well, especially in dramatic situations.
So while I'm going to miss the old voices I'm hopeful the Jap's will grow on me and will make appreciate the game even more.
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Post by Histidine on Feb 12, 2016 3:22:56 GMT -8
I'd assume the Japanese voiceovers are there because Samu-kun wants to get filthy rich off the Japanese market. I can't read/speak Japanese either, so obviously I preferred the English voices. Now there have been times where I thought the Japanese voices were really fitting (in terms of conveying emotion, and also matching the voice to the character) despite not understanding most of what they're saying; Galaxy Angel (the game series) did it superlatively. But I don't think Sunrider beta 12 is quite there; will make a separate thread on standout issues later. Also I need subtitles for the battle quotes
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Post by RedShirt047 on Feb 12, 2016 7:37:43 GMT -8
Whenever there's an option to either have English or Japanese voices I always go for the English ones (unless they are just horrible), simply because I can understand them. In this particular case I liked them well enough, except Ava's "our hold's beginning to fracture". That said, even though I'm fairly new to VNs in general I have played several of them and all with Jap VAs. And even though I can't understand anything but the ohaios and what not, they do convey the feeligs of the situation very well, especially in dramatic situations. So while I'm going to miss the old voices I'm hopeful the Jap's will grow on me and will make appreciate the game even more. Agreed on the first portion. Part of the reason Sunrider was the first VN I've ever picked up was because the fact that all of the voice acting is in my native langue made it more accessible. (The other reasons are I love strategy games, sci-fi, and all of the references in the first two chapters to the sci-fi I watched as a kid.) I wouldn't be surprised if they backpedal and release vocals in other languages to increase accessibility. I mean, at least in English given that it's the main trade language on the planet. Also, Ava is saying 'Our hull is beginning to fracture', not hold.
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Post by Marx-93 on Feb 12, 2016 11:30:38 GMT -8
On the Japanese voice overs
Well, as you can see by the URL of this forum, LiS particularly likes to dabble and market its game as "moe". That's basically a visual genre in anime related to young girls drawn in a cute way (normally referred jokingly as "waifus"). Samu-kun in particular seems to love it a lot.
And as moe is basically born and only produced in Japan, it's not only associated with animes and high-schools, but also with particular Japanese voice actors and Japanese voice-overs (and yeah, Japanese voice-overs sound high-pitched for most westerners). Samu-kun's want for Japanese voice-overs is more due to wanting to tap more into the VN market (the original Sunrider has a fairly bad rap around pure VN fans) and probably because of his own preferences.
Beside, while with higher budgets the differences blur, arguably an average Japanese voice-over tends to be a bit better than an average English voice-over (in the Japanese side the job is simply too competitive and filled with talent: the prestige of voice actors there has no comparison with the one it has here). There's also the fact that voicing NSFW material is, well, not commonly done here. There are no problems on the Japanese side there.
While I agree that a lot of people approached Sunrider for its sci-fi setting and gameplay (myself included), it's also clear that LiS want to be a VN indie developer more than a "normal" indie developer. So it makes sense they'll approach their magnum opus with that kind of mindset.
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Post by tanker4444 on Feb 12, 2016 21:02:39 GMT -8
Thanks for that explanation marx93, it really answers a lot of questions.
I have to ask though, why did the original versions of Sunrider have a bad rep? If anything I´d say those were better than what we have now. I really like the idea of going to the different areas of the ship, and the concept of the space map where you´d pick your missions was great too. Also, there was a different feeling to the story? Or maybe it was the way the story was told? Is the game structured more like the "moe" VNs now?
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Post by Marx-93 on Feb 13, 2016 4:28:00 GMT -8
Thanks for that explanation marx93, it really answers a lot of questions. I have to ask though, why did the original versions of Sunrider have a bad rep? If anything I´d say those were better than what we have now. I really like the idea of going to the different areas of the ship, and the concept of the space map where you´d pick your missions was great too. Also, there was a different feeling to the story? Or maybe it was the way the story was told? Is the game structured more like the "moe" VNs now? Pretty much. One of the biggest changes of Lib Day towards being more similar to a VN is precisely erasing the maps and making most sequences linear. Most VNs only point of interactivity is making choices. Overall though, the bad rap of the original Sunrider is not for that ("pure" VNs players tend to not care for gameplay, but it also doesn't mean they will completely reject everything with it). It was more due to presentation: the original art was not so good, the voices were only on the gameplay portion, and the interface itself was clunky and full of lag. If you see, presentation is really the part of Lib Day that has been worked out most: a lot more CGs, pretty art, voices and cool stuff happening. The story itself was also very standard and had nothing really standout (with more than one cliché). It wasn't until Far Port that it picked up, and even then until Ongess that it really could stand on its own. By that time, most of this kind of players would have already given up (a lot maybe finished First Arrival, but write it off as "slightly below average", and didn't bother with MoA). I know that myself, being a fan of both Visual Novels and sci-fi strategy games was basically playing Sunrider due to mechs, lore and gameplay until Ongess.
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Post by BITE ME UNIVERSE on Feb 16, 2016 15:53:17 GMT -8
Yeah, I'm gonna weigh in on this. Half of a word from Grey and I already had to turn off the audio. So, made kind of a wall of text and I apologize but you wanted answers and here they are. You make me happy. I don't think they can't do it directly, for the same reason they can't update the original Sunrider with the new sprites (license things, as one is freeware and the other a commercial release). However, like mcz117 said it should be fairly trivial to extract the original voicefiles. Given that it seems Samu-kun also wants Lib Day to be easy to mod, implementing them should also be easy (and at least in the DL release of the Beta, most files including the script are pretty accessible, so there shouldn't be a problem). Extracting them is easy, writing the code SHOULD be easy, and I can program it but due to my limited free time, I have to pick and choose what I work on. If it takes more than an hour, I have to drop a project. There is a bit more to it than this. One of the biggest points that can't be argued is the voicing of NSFW material. In America, that's looked down on a lot because of pagan traditions and if you start doing that you're pretty much stuck doing it and looks bad on you for the rest of your VA career and NO ONE will want to hire you. Ignoring this one, let's continue to look at America as a whole. Something to note on half of this is that English VA's are hard to find, and when you do find them, if they're good, they are expensive. There is a large group of....how do I say it professionally....uhh...fans, if I can say that, who WANT to VA because they enjoy what they watch and want to become the character and that's what Cosplay is for and usually, they're bad. Like, really bad, and using one of them is not the best idea. Having someone who isn't a fan, who is still learning how to properly VA means that they don't have all the skill yet and will have slip-ups and low points in the audio, but at least they're cheap, but fully voicing is going to take a lot of time. The other half of this is that most people WANT a fully voiced game. There were people all over the threads complaining about it not being fully voiced, even before they hit the battle voices. And when they HEARD those battle voices, they were upset that they were in English, and not Japanese. As someone who lives in Los Angeles, I meet a great diversity of people all the time, and a great number of people as well. Most of America (and the entire world because I find a fuckton of people on Steam) seem to be 1 of 5 anime watchers. 1, 2, & 3: The old vets who grew up with it usually start with it in ENGLISH on Mainstream, and either keep it that way ( aka, 1's), or transition to Japanese and the non-mainstream, for which they become a huge pack of hypocrites and say that Japanese is the only way they can watch Japanese because they "can't stand english voice actors" and I have examples against that but I'm not here to discuss that ( aka, 2's). Those are the first two. There is also a middle ground aka me who watches it in whatever language and if there is an English for it and I haven't watched it yet, I'll watch the English. If it's super new and super hype and I wanna keep up with my friends, watch the Japanese ( aka, 3's) 4's: There are those who were introduced by friends to it/saw it on netflix, and are late starters who watch the current/mainstream stuff that's in English only and probably don't know what Anime is (long story, has to do with a VA coming to my class to talk about this). That's the 4th anime watcher. 5's: The 5th are those who were introduced and watch only the Japanese dub. I'm finding that THESE people are more inclined to try and adopt the Japanese culture more/collect figures and play JVN's and JRPGs more like a Japanese person would. Not calling them Weeaboos, but they do start adopting a lifestyle close to Neet Hikikimori's, though, in America, our parent's don't allow this and still cause us to be social. What does all of this mean? If you're a 1, you probably touch the Japanese side of things to keep up with the current episodes of Naruto, One Piece, and the other mainstream things. You might occasionally pick up the non-mainstream things but it has to be action/mystery or you won't touch it like Harem animes. You'll touch games with JVA in it but only if it's like the new Naruto game because you wanna enjoy more of your favorite show. If you're a 3 like I am, you still prefer the option to have it in English/your native Language. Even Lord Gorchnik said we should have VA stuff in the countries native language, but that comes with cost issues that we won't get into. If you're a 4, 9/10 you're not going to touch this stuff and address you guys is completely pointless because you're not playing these types of games and you're not on this forum anyway. Most Important: If you're a 5, or a 2, chances are you REALLY hate American VA and you can't STAND a game or anime with it. What's sad is that you're currently the majority of the world and why we can't have English/Native VA in most things.
Personally, I prefer both, but if it's offered in my language, I'd want to listen to it in my language.
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Post by saltpack on Feb 25, 2016 12:54:52 GMT -8
This is for the devs. I've seen some footage on You tube and after playing through the first two chapters (twice) I must say that if you'd used Japanese only voice acting all the way through that would be fine and I would have been used to it. But by switching you rob me as an English speaker of any feeling that I am still even dealing with the same characters. As I watched the little intro sequence with Cossette her art was so much wilder and her voice Jananese and sounding nothing like she did before sort of ruined it for me. When you guys are done I am still going to buy your game if for no other reason than that I feel I owe you after playing the rest of it for free. But going half English and half Japanese was a mistake.
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Post by masternoj on Mar 5, 2016 17:58:52 GMT -8
I'm going to have to agree with the majority sentiment. As someone who really enjoyed Mask of Arcadius, I am extremely disappointed that all of VA is is Japanese. To be perfectly honest, I never cared if the VN portions had VA or not. I really liked the short English audio bytes for each girl in the battle portions, mostly because they gave an excellent representation of their personality. Having all of the VA in Liberation Day be Japanese is very off-putting to me, because it feels like they aren't even the same characters.
I also agree with Saltpack in that I would probably be OK with the Japanese VA if the original Sunrdier: Mask of Arcadius had also been in Japanese. Switching languages between parts of the story was definitely a mistake, and breaks the flow of the Sunrider universe.
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Post by Nemjen on Mar 5, 2016 18:04:02 GMT -8
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Post by Blackhead on Mar 5, 2016 19:51:36 GMT -8
The true question is: Does that include the new, epic Cera Gunboats and Battleship voice overs? Or will it be outsourced in a mod, and we've got to wait longer for this.
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Post by Nemjen on Mar 5, 2016 22:52:45 GMT -8
The true question is: Does that include the new, epic Cera Gunboats and Battleship voice overs? Or will it be outsourced in a mod, and we've got to wait longer for this. I like to think that the team is going to pull no punches and surprise us with v2.00, who knows we might see that Vaendryl and Samu community sound pack that we all really want. Maybe when our glorious overlord appears he will shed more light on the plans.
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Post by Drath on Mar 5, 2016 23:18:49 GMT -8
The true question is: Does that include the new, epic Cera Gunboats and Battleship voice overs? Or will it be outsourced in a mod, and we've got to wait longer for this. I like to think that the team is going to pull no punches and surprise us with v2.00, who knows we might see that Vaendryl and Samu community sound pack that we all really want. Maybe when our glorious overlord appears he will shed more light on the plans. Cera Gunboat on using Assault: "fire our shit.ogg" ?? It's already in MoA. Sunrider\game\sound\Voice folder Still taking suggestions for other lines /Drath runs and hides
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Post by Nemjen on Mar 5, 2016 23:38:00 GMT -8
I want Vaendryl to make cheesy dev references voice overs. 'Exception no more' 'Where you are going, even roll backs won't help you' 'Out of my way, I have a deadline to meet'. 'Where is my infinite moving? I will have to patch this'. 'I won't stop here, your handle references are next'.
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aesr
Civilian
Posts: 4
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Post by aesr on Mar 7, 2016 9:06:08 GMT -8
I was rather disappointed English voice actors weren't in the game. Chose Japanese instead... I would rather have English.
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Post by failkin on Mar 7, 2016 9:14:03 GMT -8
Ive never understood the fascination with voices most people cant understand. I would understand like mentioned earlier in the thread if the company was Japanese and their fan base was mainly Japanese. the game isn't even released it japan so i just don't get understand i don't think the voices are bad its just they could have hired someone to say gibberish and i wouldn't have noticed a difference. Ive been to other countries that don't speak English and i get the same feeling about any VA i cant understand. Now dont take that as an insult to the Japanese people or language but if you don't understand a language it sounds like gibberish and you just kind of stand there dumbfounded
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Post by KnightOfXentar on Mar 7, 2016 9:22:16 GMT -8
I was rather disappointed English voice actors weren't in the game. Chose Japanese instead... I would rather have English. in upcoming Liberation Day update v2.0 there should be an option to turn on the original english battle messages. Ive never understood the fascination with voices most people cant understand. I would understand like mentioned earlier in the thread if the company was Japanese and their fan base was mainly Japanese. the game isn't even released it japan so i just don't get understand i don't think the voices are bad its just they could have hired someone to say gibberish and i wouldn't have noticed a difference. Ive been to other countries that don't speak English and i get the same feeling about any VA i cant understand. Now dont take that as an insult to the Japanese people or language but if you don't understand a language it sounds like gibberish and you just kind of stand there dumbfounded true that. Especially if people got used to original english voices and then developer suddenly decided to change it. but Samu-kun explained reasons behind it I really liked the JP voices too. I don't really understand why people have a problem with them. I don't really think they broke the budget, it was actually a very slick production. People are completely off base about the JP voices being more expensive than the ENG voices. There's pretty much only one place in the USA you can record anime voices: Dallas, Texas. Maybe Los Angeles. How much money would it cost to fly every single Eng VA in MoA to Dallas? Sure, a small number of the VAs already live there, but others live in Canada, Australia, and other parts of the United States. Plus, we would have to fly the core Love in Space team to Dallas to oversee the production. So we're talking about buying about roughly 3 international plane tickets, 4 domestic tickets, and about 7 hotel rooms for a week, on top of paying everyone, hiring an audio engineer, and renting a studio. (Not happening with our budget) But there are other studios you can record at instead of Dallas, right? Well, yes. But that doesn't change the situation that everyone's spread out across the world, and still Dallas would be best because that's where the majority of anime ENG voice actors live. Well then, why not hire multiple studios for each VA? Well, that would be expensive as hell, and the core team would then have to fly across the globe to oversee multiple recording sessions, so that's obviously not possible. Then why not just do what you did in MoA and get the VAs to record at home and then email it over? This has multiple problems. Then you basically have to digitally clean up and normalize everything because everyone's recording with different microphones, in different rooms, with different software. Sure, if it's just a few hundred lines for just the battle voices, this is feasible, but when it's over 2000 lines, that's just impossible unless you hire a full time audio engineer. (And almost nobody will do this cheaply because this is essentially the definition of hell from a recording stand point.) Also, is the core development team going to go on a world tour to visit everyone at their homes to direct the recording session? Or we could just hire Japanese voices. All eroge seiyuus live in Tokyo and can reach any recording studio we rent by public transit. Rent one studio. Fly the core team to Tokyo for a few days, come back with all the recordings, all cleaned up, mixed, and just ready to be dropped into the game folder to automatically work. (Yes, it was literally amazing.) It took us just 10 days to get the JP voices running for the ENTIRE game, while it took over 4 months to get just the MoA ENG battle voices working because of the huge number of issues caused by contracting people across the world to record at home and not being there to direct. The only other realistic alternative was to recast the entire ENG cast by selecting only VAs who lived in Dallas to record, but I'm sure this would have pissed off the fans anyways. Also, ENG VAs generally have less experience with eroge than Japanese seiyuu, so if we were going to start fresh and stick with the cast for the rest of the franchise, we obviously wanted VAs with experience. Given only those two options, I decided recasting an entirely JP cast was the superior choice. The real situation with ENG voices is actually worse than that, because the VAs sometimes don't even deliver the voices. If you haven't noticed, a lot of other VN Kickstarters through 2015 have disclosed contract disputes with ENG "recording agencies." From what I can gather, these "agencies" aren't really real... which honestly makes me cautious about approaching them. Another big head scratcher for me is why the hell anyone thinks I was trying to sell Liberation Day in Japan? Why would the Japanese buy Liberation Day when the first two games aren't in Japanese? I got a JP cast because the MoA VAs couldn't come back so we were going to have to completely recast anyways, not because I wanted to sell the game in Japan lol. The real things which contributed to the time crunch were actually conventions and Kickstarter deadlines. AX is the biggest trade show for visual novels, so you need to align your product release dates so that you can make the biggest announcements when AX hits. Second, if you have a Kickstarter, you have to deliver when promised or else your backers get angry real quick. In any matter, I don't think the production of Liberation Day was rushed or that we ran out of time. Sure, there's a time crunch, but all games have time crunches... It wasn't any worse than any of our other games, and a lot better than MoA. long story short: 1.) its cheaper to use Japanese voiceover. 2.) English voice over scene is not as good as japanese. Creation of original english voices (only battle messages) took them over 4 months, while everything in japanese voices was done in just few weeks. They wouldnt make it on time if they had to take their time with english voice actors. 3.) they had some troubles with original english voice staff (they were not available). So even if they wanted to stick with english, they still would have to change some voices (fans wouldnt like it as well)
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