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Post by truebeliever on May 31, 2016 16:25:27 GMT -8
Back in the day, I played a PC game called Master of Orion that I enjoyed a great deal. It featured humans and other races trying to build empires in the galaxy. The humans were, amusingly enough, all white men. All the soldiers were white men. The human diplomat was a white man. The scientist was a white man. There were, in fact, no women or non-whites depicted anywhere in the game, and my non-white friends and I used to joke that they must have been wiped out by the time that future rolled around, and humanity was clearly relying on cloning to reproduce.
We were just kidding, of course. We didn't think that depiction of future humanity was some sort of indication of racism or sexism on the part of the game's developers, Simtex, but we did think it showed a blind spot on their part. (In fairness, they did somewhat better with the sequel, in which there was one black man and one white woman who could be hired as heroes, although there weren't any Asians that I remember.) Nobody wanted tokenism or a representative of every ethnic demographic a la Power Rangers. We just thought it would have been nice to show humanity as being more than just bald white men and white-haired white men and brown-haired white men. To my mind, that's natural. When you talk about "humanity," if you consider yourself human, you like to see someone who looks like you included in that label. I'm Asian, for example, and I'm not going to lie; I thought it was pretty cool back in the day that Mr. Sulu was helming the Enterprise.
Remembering this the other day made me think of Sunrider, which takes place in a universe much like our own, in which humanity has spread to the stars. Sunrider does considerably better than Master of Orion on this front; it presents a racially mixed humanity where women can hold their own with men. And yet it occurs to me that I've never seen a black person in Sunrider.
The nature of the times we live in makes this sort of topic taboo and fraught with emotion. So let me make clear that I am not accusing Sunrider's developers of any sort of bias; in fact, let me be clearer. I absolutely do not believe they are biased in any way. I simply think that this was an innocent oversight on their part.
I also want to point out that I don't believe this is a matter of political correctness, but rather one of believability. If humanity's spread to the stars, then you'd expect to see all of humanity, and if you don't, then you'd wonder why. Maybe there's some reason why we haven't seen any black people to date. Maybe future humanity tends to segregate itself ethnically; maybe the New Empire killed off all the black people in a pogrom. The point is, if there aren't any black people in this universe, then it'd be good if LiS explained why, and if there are black people, it'd be nice to see them from time to time.
Now some people might say, well, how do you know there aren't any black people in the Sunrider universe? Maybe the majority of the ship's crew is black, for all you know. Well, that's my point, really: We never see them, so we wouldn't know, would we?
And to forestall any would-be anime history revisionists who might try to claim that Sunrider is based on anime and that anime rarely depicts blacks, rarely isn't never. Macross had the lovely Claudia LaSalle; Legend of Galactic Heroes had the loyal Louis Mashengo. Even Evangelion, which mostly took place in Japan, had a black sailor on that UN carrier during that stupid episode where they stuffed the angel full of battleships.
Once again, I'm not asking for tokenism. Kayto's harem is already full to bursting, for example, so I'm totally fine with not having a black heroine show up. I would just like to suggest that it would be good -- for immersion's sake if nothing else -- if LiS shows a wider swath of humanity in its future games than it has to date.
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Post by selenan on May 31, 2016 18:36:50 GMT -8
It's a game, not reality.
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Post by 白龍 on May 31, 2016 18:58:51 GMT -8
There's people with purple and light blue hair. If that's not racial diversity, I don't know what is.
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Post by sweetlove on May 31, 2016 19:26:31 GMT -8
What purpose would this even serve narratively?
You're trying to frame it as if it isn't a PC issue but it's pretty clear that's exactly the case, and frankly, I find that attitude rather patronising even if I'm not the actual author.
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Post by truebeliever on May 31, 2016 19:52:20 GMT -8
It's a game, not reality. Fiction does not exist in isolation but reflects and refracts reality. In fact, that's the tagline of the Sunrider series: "This story takes place as we live today, in a universe reminiscent but vastly different from our own." Now you may argue "It's vastly different in the sense that there are no black people in the universe," and that's fine, but let's make that clear. Incidentally, as you can see from the posts on this board, a number of people were quite upset that [RE]turn's endings weren't canon. So yes, it's a game, not reality -- but that doesn't mean people don't care about it, and it doesn't diminish the value of their feelings. There's people with purple and light blue hair. If that's not racial diversity, I don't know what is. I absolutely agree; in fact, I wrote, "[Sunrider] presents a racially mixed humanity where women can hold their own with men." But for all that there's people with purple and light blue hair, there aren't any people with dark faces. What purpose would this even serve narratively? You're trying to frame it as if it isn't a PC issue but it's pretty clear that's exactly the case, and frankly, I find that attitude rather patronising even if I'm not the actual author. The narrative purpose would be narrative immersion and believability, as I wrote in my post: "If humanity's spread to the stars, then you'd expect to see all of humanity, and if you don't, then you'd wonder why." I do apologize if you find my attitude patronizing. That's certainly not my intention, particularly since you are not the actual author. |
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Post by MagnificentBeard on May 31, 2016 20:34:46 GMT -8
Well, who knows what we'll see in the future right? Maybe the Liberty's possible new future pilot will be purple Joke's aside, as much as I like diversity, I can content myself with the knowledge that the galaxy has all the same kinds of people you'd find today. Exercise your own imagination about what you don't see in the world of Sunrider as I do, and that sort of thing solves itself. Not that my imagination is that great. At one point I looked back on my past story building attempts and realized the same gaps in my characters as well, it's surprisingly easy to simply not think of something. I figure whether or not what you suggest will come to pass depends on whether or not any new contacts pop up beyond the people we've already met. Civilians, world leaders, merchants, criminals, The Sunrider's unsung faceless crewmen and women. And that would require more artwork. I don't know what the budget is like these days for Sunrider's future, but I suspect we won't be seeing that many new people. It's a shame, but i'm certain it's not intentional. Besides, everyone knows Space Whales are huge racists. We'll never see a black man before before a whale, as they have not yet made their appearance. |
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Post by sweetlove on May 31, 2016 20:46:04 GMT -8
The narrative purpose would be narrative immersion and believability, as I wrote in my post: "If humanity's spread to the stars, then you'd expect to see all of humanity, and if you don't, then you'd wonder why." I do apologize if you find my attitude patronizing. That's certainly not my intention, particularly since you are not the actual author. If you actually care about it, I'd recommend you try to stop justifying yourself and to just flat out make the request instead of having to preach it. Or worse, be all passive-aggressive as if you aren't. Anyway, ignoring all warnings from my common sense to wash my hands of anything to do with this topic, this is an issue that tends to only be a problem for people who go the lengths to make it a problem; I've never cared for it, nor has most people from what I can tell. Besides, your argument of 'this is not perfectly represntative of reality or how it works so it obviously deserves an explanation' is just nitpicking considering all the other details we don't apply the same standards for. After all, this is fiction. |
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Post by truebeliever on May 31, 2016 20:52:46 GMT -8
Fair enough, MagnificentBeard. Incidentally, this is probably as good a time as any to reiterate that I am absolutely not accusing LiS of being terrible people for not having black people in the game. That is the furthest thing from my mind. I realize there is a lot of wariness about nutjobs coming in and demanding this or that change in the game and threatening a boycott if they don't get their way -- that's not me. If you check out the thread "It should be possible to spoiler spoiler," you'll see that I've argued that I think a writer owes fans only one thing, and that's an honest job. This thread, as titled, is a suggestion. If LiS says, "Pshh, whatever," that's their business; they're totally free to do that.
I don't really understand what you're getting at here, sweetlove, but I figured I'd already done that by making this thread? You're more than welcome to expand on why you think it might be a bad idea; you might even convince LiS of the same.
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Post by sweetlove on May 31, 2016 21:35:20 GMT -8
I... am honestly not sure whether you are actually sincere or just trolling me here. But by the benefit of doubt, here I go:
So here is the core point of your request/argument. This, and one other sentence to actually state what you want is all you need.
The rest? Is basically an unwarranted rant based on what you think should be, arguing against people and arguments that don't even exist. And suddenly, this request has turned into a bloody essay. Even this is understandable to an extent, but here comes the biggest problem: to top it off comes your little recollection, and basically a post that reads like "I am bothered by this but not that bothered by it. Oh this is a problem, but not that big of a problem," as if you're somehow afraid of offending us, or as if you're dealing with children. Or both. The end result is basically "How to be Patronising 101".
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Post by truebeliever on May 31, 2016 21:57:47 GMT -8
I... am honestly not sure whether you are actually sincere or just trolling me here. But by the benefit of doubt, here I go: So here is the core point of your request/argument. This, and one other sentence to actually state what you want is all you need. The rest? Is basically an unwarranted rant based on what you think should be, arguing against people and arguments that don't even exist. And suddenly, this request has turned into a bloody essay. To top it off comes your little recollection, and basically a post that reads like "I am bothered by this but not that bothered by it. Oh this is a problem, but not that big of a problem," as if you're somehow afraid of offending us, or as if you're dealing with children. Or both. The end result is basically "How to be Patronising 101". As a matter of fact, I'm being quite sincere, and I'm not trolling you. Unfortunately, we're dealing with plain text, and nuances of tone tend to get lost. So, for example, my previous post was not intended to say, "Oh this is a problem, but not that big of a problem," nor was it intended to come across as condescending, and I promise you that I am not afraid of offending anyone. My point was that I was making a suggestion with this thread, and it was intended in that spirit. If that didn't come through and instead gave the impression you took, then I suppose that comes down to my inadequacy as a writer. To put it another way, if I have a hypothetical friend, and I realize something that might improve his life, then I will offer that notion as a suggestion, which is his to take or leave. Obviously, LiS and I are not friends, but I definitely feel friendly toward them and respect them as creative people. So I'm certainly not going to try to dictate to them or threaten them in any way; that would hardly be friendly. If that gives the impression of timidity or indifference on my part, then let me say that nothing could be further from the truth. If I understand what you're saying, your objection is not to my suggestion, but to the way it was made -- that my original post was too long and too full of what you consider irrelevancies. Well, that's fair enough. As I said, it's entirely possible that the things that irritate you stem from my poor writing ability, and again, I assure you that any offense was completely unintentional. |
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Post by vaendryl on May 31, 2016 22:36:34 GMT -8
in be4 new liberty pilot is a purple genderfluid otherkin.
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Post by truebeliever on May 31, 2016 22:42:44 GMT -8
in be4 new liberty pilot is a purple genderfluid otherkin. Ha, no worries: It's a non-canon ending. |
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Post by vaendryl on May 31, 2016 22:52:08 GMT -8
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Post by truebeliever on May 31, 2016 23:49:25 GMT -8
Huh, how about that. As I said, I think Kayto's harem is already plenty big, but far be it from me to say no to more waifus. |
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Post by clove on Jun 1, 2016 0:13:13 GMT -8
Um... you know that Icari is Asian, right? It is not obvious, but she is anime-asian. Long dark hair. Flesh colored skin instead of milk-white. Wields katana. Basically a ninja, whether in or out of her Ryder...
EDIT: Next politically correct abortion of a topic will be, "Why is Icari so stereotypically Asian?" :/
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Post by Dextix on Jun 1, 2016 0:15:08 GMT -8
No, what you are asking IS tokenism.
"Please include a black character just because he is black"
This kind of thought creates token characters. I am not opposed to having a more diverse cast in sunrider universe, but the choise has to depend on more than "Oh, we need a black person just because he is black"
Your whole premise for this blatant tokenism is that the universe is like ours. When it is completely wrong. Because then PACT and even Ryuvian empire would not exist as our earth knows how shitty those ruling systems are.
Again, i will repeat. What you want, is blatant tokenism, as you want a character that is defined by their skin colour rather than the chraracter. Why should we care what colour the characters are really?
This political corrent bullshit finds way even here, fcking annoying.
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Post by MagnificentBeard on Jun 1, 2016 0:23:10 GMT -8
in be4 new liberty pilot is a purple genderfluid otherkin. The horror! I see we're on the same terrifying page. |
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Post by admiralcheese on Jun 1, 2016 0:59:41 GMT -8
in be4 new liberty pilot is a purple genderfluid otherkin. You need to educate yourself ****lord! The new Liberty Pilot is a PUCE genderfluid aromantic romantic demi otherkin! |
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Post by Dukat Von Shumer on Jun 1, 2016 2:50:15 GMT -8
I do not see sense and not relevance to a discussion of these ... Recalling that Chigara is not human, Icari is Asian and God is a woman (Claude.  ). |
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Post by valikdu on Jun 1, 2016 3:24:53 GMT -8
Yes. It's <getCurrentYear>, and we need to check our privilege.
/sarcasm
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Post by truebeliever on Jun 1, 2016 7:13:36 GMT -8
Um... you know that Icari is Asian, right? It is not obvious, but she is anime-asian. Long dark hair. Flesh colored skin instead of milk-white. Wields katana. Basically a ninja, whether in or out of her Ryder... EDIT: Next politically correct abortion of a topic will be, "Why is Icari so stereotypically Asian?" :/ I do not see sense and not relevance to a discussion of these ... Recalling that Chigara is not human, Icari is Asian and God is a woman (Claude. ). Yes, I do know that she's Asian. I wrote in the OP: "Sunrider does considerably better than Master of Orion on this front; it presents a racially mixed humanity where women can hold their own with men." No one is claiming that Sunrider is populated solely by white people. No, what you are asking IS tokenism. "Please include a black character just because he is black" This kind of thought creates token characters. I am not opposed to having a more diverse cast in sunrider universe, but the choise has to depend on more than "Oh, we need a black person just because he is black" Your whole premise for this blatant tokenism is that the universe is like ours. When it is completely wrong. Because then PACT and even Ryuvian empire would not exist as our earth knows how shitty those ruling systems are. As sweetlove has pointed out, this is the relevant passage: "If humanity's spread to the stars, then you'd expect to see all of humanity, and if you don't, then you'd wonder why." A lot of the people on this thread seem to be laboring under the misunderstanding that this is some sort of social justice screed and not the suggestion to correct an oddity in continuity that it is. Hypothetically, if Chigara had fired a six shot revolver at the end of Liberation Day and somehow fired seven shots without explanation, that would be odd. That would be worth raising as maybe something that needs explanation or elaboration going forward. As I said, the times being what they are, this topic is fraught with emotion -- and perhaps that's why a number of people on this thread seem to be reading things I'm not writing -- but the fact is that this is exactly the same sort of thing. If you were to go to a session of the United Nations and not see a single black person, I'd say you'd probably think that was odd if you were a halfway observant person. In fact, it would be odd if you didn't think it was odd. As for tokenism, I wrote this in the OP: "Once again, I'm not asking for tokenism. Kayto's harem is already full to bursting, for example, so I'm totally fine with not having a black heroine show up." Really, I don't see how I could possibly be any clearer than this. And as for PACT and the Ryuvian empire not existing in our world, I guess you're not aware that there were Communist revolutions and hereditary empires in our history, which PACT and Ryuvia were based on. Sunrider did not spring fully formed from Samu's head, but is clearly based on our history. That's why the Alliance has ships named "Machiavelli," for example. If you're fine with accepting those carry-overs, yet argue that Sunrider is completely divorced from Earth history, and that's why there are no black people, then I really wonder if you realize what you're writing. Yes. It's <getCurrentYear>, and we need to check our privilege. /sarcasm No one is suggesting you check anything, and if you think someone is, then perhaps that's simply your ethnic guilt talking. A lot of the replies to this thread have been full of a lot of grumbling about rampant PC this and check our privilege that, attempting to address things I never said or that are simply not true -- and yet no one has elaborated on why they think the suggestion itself is bad. If you have concrete reasons as to why it would be a bad thing to have black people appear in Sunrider -- note yet again that I am absolutely not asking for a token black heroine -- then by all means, feel free to elaborate on why that is. |
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Post by Dextix on Jun 1, 2016 9:02:01 GMT -8
It seems that in your crusade for Social Justice you forgot how to read.
I am arguing that Sunrider universe is not our universe. Because it is not! Just because the story took inspiration out of the real world doesnt mean it is our universe. And the facts point that this is not our universe. Because if it was, Ryuvian empire or PACT would not exist because people on earth already experienced those two failures! What would be the reason to repeat those again?
From your UN analogy i can easily say that you are for tokenism and for parity.
I would not find it odd. Because im not a racist that focuses on a persons colour. I focus on their capabilities as a human being rather than their skin.
While it seem you dont give a single f about anything exept the colour of someones skin, Which just reeks of Social Justice Douchebags.
And yes, you are asking for tokenism despite your denial. You being fine that there may not be a black heroine doesnt invalidate the fact that you want a black person to be present in Sunrider just because they are black.
THAT IS TOKENISM! That is what ruins good products. That is why everyone hates social justice douchebags!
Having black characters is not bad. But your suggestion relies only on single reasoning.
"Sunrider needs a black character just because they are black"
That is your reasoning. You have no story implications to back it up, no reasons, and can give a logical explanation why would having a black character would be benefitial to the story! You just want a black character, because of their skin colour, which is racist as fck.
Give a real character suggestion, with real story, real meat, real aspirations, and then you can make the character anything you want, even a trigendered pyrofox.
But if your character suggestion starts with "MUST BE BLACK" then fck no. That is how the shittiest possible characters are made.
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Post by truebeliever on Jun 1, 2016 9:36:29 GMT -8
It seems that in your crusade for Social Justice you forgot how to read. Right back at you, Dextix. I have made abundantly clear that this is not a crusade for social justice but a suggestion that the developers are free to take or leave. Unlike you, I do not throw tantrums or threaten boycotts when I do not get my way. Nobody is calling you a racist, but honestly, your self-defensiveness is starting to make me wonder. I think you and I could agree that if I were to label you as a racist that that would be an example of my putting words in your mouth in an attempt at character assassination and that it would be wrong. Since we can agree on that, and since I have not done that, I will thank you to extend the same courtesy to me. Well, that's absolutely true. I'm certainly not going to argue with that. However, I disagree that this is tokenism; it is rather a reflection of reality. If Sunrider were somehow made up of an all-male cast, and I said, "You know, this is weird. Where are the women?" this would not indicate a failure on my part to see the males for the human beings they are and to be obsessed with sex. And if LiS were to then put women into the game, this would not be any sort of truckling to social justice warriors, but rather represent an improvement of the game. I mean, I don't know about you, but I like having waifus in Sunrider. I am glad we can agree on this point. |
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Post by sweetlove on Jun 1, 2016 9:52:11 GMT -8
As for tokenism, I wrote this in the OP: "Once again, I'm not asking for tokenism. Kayto's harem is already full to bursting, for example, so I'm totally fine with not having a black heroine show up." Really, I don't see how I could possibly be any clearer than this. And as for PACT and the Ryuvian empire not existing in our world, I guess you're not aware that there were Communist revolutions and hereditary empires in our history, which PACT and Ryuvia were based on. Sunrider did not spring fully formed from Samu's head, but is clearly based on our history. That's why the Alliance has ships named "Machiavelli," for example. If you're fine with accepting those carry-overs, yet argue that Sunrider is completely divorced from Earth history, and that's why there are no black people, then I really wonder if you realize what you're writing. Yes this is. Allow me to quote myself for a second (a statement which you conveniently ignored by the way): Out of the numerous details that may differ from the Sunrider universe and ours, you have chosen to nitpick the single issue of minority representation. Your chief motivation for your actions is the fact that you are bothered by the lack of representation for minorities within the Sunrider universe, not because of any narrative flaws, but due to meta reasons- which may or may not be politically motivated. Regardless, a course of action for the sole purpose of filling a quota for minority representation is a textbook definition of tokenism. No one is suggesting you check anything, and if you think someone is, then perhaps that's simply your ethnic guilt talking. A lot of the replies to this thread have been full of a lot of grumbling about rampant PC this and check our privilege that, attempting to address things I never said or that are simply not true -- and yet no one has elaborated on why they think the suggestion itself is bad. If you have concrete reasons as to why it would be a bad thing to have black people appear in Sunrider -- note yet again that I am absolutely not asking for a token black heroine -- then by all means, feel free to elaborate on why that is. And now you just make me lose all appetite for reasonable discourse. Again. I think it's a good idea to look at yourself in a mirror once in a while. And also equally good to try not to just blame the mirror if it doesn't show you the image you want. |
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Post by truebeliever on Jun 1, 2016 10:08:42 GMT -8
I think it's a good idea to look at yourself in a mirror once in a while. And also equally good to try not to just blame the mirror if it doesn't show you the image you want. Well said, sweetlove, and it's a course of action I would recommend to a number of posters in this thread. If you are determined to see tokenism where none exists, then I dare say you will find it. We certainly do seem to be at an impasse as far as reasonable discourse goes. |
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Post by Blackhead on Jun 1, 2016 10:19:55 GMT -8
Count me in, we definitely need more diversity! |
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Post by sweetlove on Jun 1, 2016 10:24:59 GMT -8
Well said, sweetlove, and it's a course of action I would recommend to a number of posters in this thread. If you are determined to see tokenism where none exists, then I dare say you will find it. AKA: Let's completely derail what the other person said then cut out another two thirds of it because it might prove detrimental to my argument. Alas, why do I ever believe in the good of humanity on the internet. |
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Post by Dextix on Jun 1, 2016 10:28:49 GMT -8
Truebeliever. When you make a response. Respond, to the whole post. Instead of nitpicking. Because nitpicking shows that you simply avoid those parts that you simply cannot refute.
Your suggestion, is a bad one. Since it is a token suggestion. It wants only a black person for the sake of black person. If you would create an actual character and only then make him black, that would be an actually good suggestion. Because you wouldnt focus on the colour of a character but his/her personality. Also, since i do not threaten any boycots, it seems that your strawman is really really weak.
And i am not putting any words in your mouth. Those who want a black character just because he/she is black ARE racists! Because instead off focusing on personality and impact on the story you only focus on race.
YOu simply cannot disagree that this is tokenism, because its the definition of tokenism!
Having a black person for the sake of having a black person IS TOKENISM!
And yes, having black characters is not bad, as long as itt is not the single quality that defines them. Because that is the only thing you care about. And i will remind you. Characters that start from race/sexuality instead of personality and other qualities, ALWAYS end up as shitty token characters that have no place other than to stand there and show "inclusiveness"
Create a real character that actually has a personality and is not defined by his/her race. Because now, you are advocating for tokenism. Hell check what that word means! You are advocating the exact same thing!
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 1, 2016 10:40:43 GMT -8
It's a game, not reality. Fiction does not exist in isolation but reflects and refracts reality. In fact, that's the tagline of the Sunrider series: "This story takes place as we live today, in a universe reminiscent but vastly different from our own." Now you may argue "It's vastly different in the sense that there are no black people in the universe," and that's fine, but let's make that clear. Incidentally, as you can see from the posts on this board, a number of people were quite upset that [RE]turn's endings weren't canon. So yes, it's a game, not reality -- but that doesn't mean people don't care about it, and it doesn't diminish the value of their feelings. There's people with purple and light blue hair. If that's not racial diversity, I don't know what is. I absolutely agree; in fact, I wrote, "[Sunrider] presents a racially mixed humanity where women can hold their own with men." But for all that there's people with purple and light blue hair, there aren't any people with dark faces. What purpose would this even serve narratively? You're trying to frame it as if it isn't a PC issue but it's pretty clear that's exactly the case, and frankly, I find that attitude rather patronising even if I'm not the actual author. The narrative purpose would be narrative immersion and believability, as I wrote in my post: "If humanity's spread to the stars, then you'd expect to see all of humanity, and if you don't, then you'd wonder why." I do apologize if you find my attitude patronizing. That's certainly not my intention, particularly since you are not the actual author. I'm going to go on a bit of a stretch and attempt to rationalize why we don't see people with darker skin color in Sunrider. As you know, skin pigmentation is one of the most environment susceptible trait a human has being that it's a evolutionary feature humans develop to ward off high UV rays. Even without crossing generations, placing a human in a UV ray heavy area will darken his skin. Do it over the course of several hundred generations (I believe 2500 years was the minimum), and their descendants will be born naturally with darker skin. This also works vice versa. (Without going further into the complicated sociology of classes, wealth, cultural preferences, selective breeding, etc.) So I'll be assuming for the past 2,500 years+, the majority of humans have not had prolonged contact with strong UV rays. That the development and spread of technology has rendered everyone to turn pale. (Even in space, they stay inside spaceships. Who in their right mind would step outside of a spaceship and engulf themselves in the glory of all that highly radioactive cosmic background radiation) And that the ones that haven't? We probably just haven't seen yet. |
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Post by selenan on Jun 1, 2016 13:09:43 GMT -8
It's a game, not reality. Fiction does not exist in isolation but reflects and refracts reality. In fact, that's the tagline of the Sunrider series: "This story takes place as we live today, in a universe reminiscent but vastly different from our own." Now you may argue "It's vastly different in the sense that there are no black people in the universe," and that's fine, but let's make that clear. Incidentally, as you can see from the posts on this board, a number of people were quite upset that [RE]turn's endings weren't canon. So yes, it's a game, not reality -- but that doesn't mean people don't care about it, and it doesn't diminish the value of their feelings. You're arguing for the game to be more like reality, when it is clearly a game written in a medium that was created to help insecure Japanese men jerk off. |
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