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Post by kielomo on Jun 1, 2016 13:13:21 GMT -8
So... as a "person of color"... I really didn't notice, nor did I care much. If it happens, then it needs to be done well, rather than shoehorned in just to check it off a list.
And on a completely different, but even more serious note, this is my first post to the forums, so hello everyone!
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Post by sweetlove on Jun 1, 2016 13:27:13 GMT -8
You're arguing for the game to be more like reality, when it is clearly a game written in a medium that was created to help insecure Japanese men jerk off. D'aw, don't be so harsh. Sure, VNs had their humble beginnings, but I don't think anyone is playing Sunrider to primarily jerk off... ... Right folks? Oh god. I'm not sure I actually want to hear the answer now.
On a more serious note, while the first use of the term "visual novel" came with Leaf's Shizuku which is admittedly an 18+ game, the medium actually traces its roots back to Chunsoft's Otogirisou which is a non-h game (Chunsoft called its works "sound novels" instead). Of course, if you look it up on vndb will find releases of "visual novels" before that, but they are closer to games or text adventures than the visual novels we think of today.
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 1, 2016 13:45:20 GMT -8
You're arguing for the game to be more like reality, when it is clearly a game written in a medium that was created to help insecure Japanese men jerk off. D'aw, don't be so harsh. Sure, VNs had their humble beginnings, but I don't think anyone is playing Sunrider to primarily jerk off... ... Right folks? Oh god. I'm not sure I actually want to hear the answer now.
On a more serious note, while the first use of the term "visual novel" came with Leaf's Shizuku which is admittedly an 18+ game, the medium actually traces its roots back to Chunsoft's Otogirisou which is a non-h game (Chunsoft called its works "sound novels" instead). Of course, if you look it up on vndb will find releases of "visual novels" before that, but they are closer to games or text adventures than the visual novels we think of today. Don't worry. I'm part of the minority who plays visual novels for the sake of the story! Hence why I'm not particularly fond of fanservice only visual novels. If the fanservice comes with a story, I'll take it. If not, eh. Also, welcome kielomo!
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Post by Samu-kun on Jun 1, 2016 13:47:14 GMT -8
As a small spoiler, yes, there are dark skinned people in the Sunrider galaxy, but they do not inhabit the Neutral Rim, which is why we have not yet seen any. They primarily inhabit Denari Space, the area around Diode. (As discussed in the Veniczar Novel) A Denari character was *almost* introduced in V2.0 of LD, but we didn't have the time to design her. We have been preparing to introduce the Denari Arc for a while though, which we hope will be a more substantial and more complicated story arc than the Ongess arc in MoA.
Will we see them in the next installment? Probably so, but I don't know. Depends whether the story will finally leave the Neutral Rim and go into Denari Space.
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Post by MagnificentBeard on Jun 1, 2016 14:47:31 GMT -8
As a small spoiler, yes, there are dark skinned people in the Sunrider galaxy, but they do not inhabit the Neutral Rim, which is why we have not yet seen any. They primarily inhabit Denari Space, the area around Diode. (As discussed in the Veniczar Novel) A Denari character was *almost* introduced in V2.0 of LD, but we didn't have the time to design her. We have been preparing to introduce the Denari Arc for a while though, which we hope will be a more substantial and more complicated story arc than the Ongess arc in MoA. Will we see them in the next installment? Probably so, but I don't know. Depends whether the story will finally leave the Neutral Rim and go into Denari Space. I wonder how many people have read that book... looks like i've got some reading to do! Thanks for the insight Samu. Hopefully that'll put the matter to rest. It was getting kinda rowdy in here.
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Post by sweetlove on Jun 1, 2016 17:35:04 GMT -8
Hm, interesting. Curious as to why you decided to divided people of different colours into different regions of the galaxy though.
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Post by InquisitorJeeves on Jun 1, 2016 17:42:17 GMT -8
Another reference to the Veniczar novel that I keep hearing about. I don't suppose there will be a time when those unable to support the Patreon will be able to read it? Because it sounds incredibly interesting.
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 1, 2016 19:49:23 GMT -8
Is there actually a collection of links for the Veniczar novel or do I have to scroll all the way down. It seems tedious to scroll through so many pages to find the posts...
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Post by Samu-kun on Jun 1, 2016 20:35:32 GMT -8
If I recall correctly, if you find one of the posts, it contains a table of contents to all of the other chapters.
Unfortunately, I am not actively involved with the Veniczar novel because it was contracted out to another author who's been MIA as of late so I dunno what'll happen to it...
Maybe I can dream of a NVL adaption. Heh.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 1, 2016 21:11:49 GMT -8
I... am honestly not sure whether you are actually sincere or just trolling me here. But by the benefit of doubt, here I go: So here is the core point of your request/argument. This, and one other sentence to actually state what you want is all you need. The rest? Is basically an unwarranted rant based on what you think should be, arguing against people and arguments that don't even exist. And suddenly, this request has turned into a bloody essay. To top it off comes your little recollection, and basically a post that reads like "I am bothered by this but not that bothered by it. Oh this is a problem, but not that big of a problem," as if you're somehow afraid of offending us, or as if you're dealing with children. Or both. The end result is basically "How to be Patronising 101". As a matter of fact, I'm being quite sincere, and I'm not trolling you. Unfortunately, we're dealing with plain text, and nuances of tone tend to get lost. So, for example, my previous post was not intended to say, "Oh this is a problem, but not that big of a problem," nor was it intended to come across as condescending, and I promise you that I am not afraid of offending anyone. My point was that I was making a suggestion with this thread, and it was intended in that spirit. If that didn't come through and instead gave the impression you took, then I suppose that comes down to my inadequacy as a writer. To put it another way, if I have a hypothetical friend, and I realize something that might improve his life, then I will offer that notion as a suggestion, which is his to take or leave. Obviously, LiS and I are not friends, but I definitely feel friendly toward them and respect them as creative people. So I'm certainly not going to try to dictate to them or threaten them in any way; that would hardly be friendly. If that gives the impression of timidity or indifference on my part, then let me say that nothing could be further from the truth. If I understand what you're saying, your objection is not to my suggestion, but to the way it was made -- that my original post was too long and too full of what you consider irrelevancies. Well, that's fair enough. As I said, it's entirely possible that the things that irritate you stem from my poor writing ability, and again, I assure you that any offense was completely unintentional. You say that... but weren't you, in a different thread a while ago, saying something TOTALLY DIFFERENT from this? You know, back in the "It should be possible to (spoiler) to (spoiler)" thread in response to Dextix? In that thread, you were VEHEMENTLY REJECTING the idea that someone should make such protestations based on what they felt was a justified recommendation. Example - I argue that we need an extension to mid-game story to flesh out and stabilize the main plot we're actually supposed to follow in the next game, and you see that as some form of demand for entitlement instead of a widely-shared opinion. You start going off about racial diversity in a fantasy game just because of the fact that human culture in it is loosely based off our own as a mock-template, and yet you feel that it should be acknowledged simply because you feel there's truth to it but don't see that as entitlement itself? Maybe I'm missing something here, but it sounds like there's just a little bit of bias going on here about what you do or don't think is an important issue and who you do or don't think has a right to comment on it.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 1, 2016 21:15:01 GMT -8
As a small spoiler, yes, there are dark skinned people in the Sunrider galaxy, but they do not inhabit the Neutral Rim, which is why we have not yet seen any. They primarily inhabit Denari Space, the area around Diode. (As discussed in the Veniczar Novel) A Denari character was *almost* introduced in V2.0 of LD, but we didn't have the time to design her. We have been preparing to introduce the Denari Arc for a while though, which we hope will be a more substantial and more complicated story arc than the Ongess arc in MoA. Will we see them in the next installment? Probably so, but I don't know. Depends whether the story will finally leave the Neutral Rim and go into Denari Space. ... You do realize putting such an arc in mid-game LibDay probably would have done wonders for the approval rating of the game, no(?) As for the Veniczar story, if Wooly (I assume they're still the writer for non-game stories/novels, right?) is absent, why not split the thing into two separate "issues" like the Lord of the Rings series? Book 1 & Book 2, or something like that? Then release at least some of what you currently have on the Patreon? Also... going out of line asking blunt questions, but was Veniczar's writer going MIA in any way connected to LibDay's plot being cut short?
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Post by Dextix on Jun 1, 2016 21:44:35 GMT -8
Yeah, it seems quite strange that such an important part of Sunrider lore is locked away. Im not against people having early acces to it. But when you lock important story bits, its really bad for the story.
IF im not mistaken, someone in the steam forums told me that the female Pact general that we saw uncovered at the end of Lib Day was in the novel where she was expanded upon.
Knowing about her more would have been better because currently she just seems a random addition.
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Post by vaendryl on Jun 1, 2016 22:19:28 GMT -8
Hm, interesting. Curious as to why you decided to divided people of different colours into different regions of the galaxy though. maybe in the far future ethnicity will disappear as DNA mixes more evenly in an ever more interconnected world. racial distinctions arose due to populations living for long periods far away from each other, but we may be at the cusp of an age where the opposite happens. then again, on a galactic scale perhaps there are regions that are hardly ever visited by other groups, causing the same thing to happen again. *shrug
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Post by Xechran on Jun 1, 2016 22:57:50 GMT -8
Also... going out of line asking blunt questions, but was Veniczar's writer going MIA in any way connected to LibDay's plot being cut short? Going to go out on a limb here and say no, only because they were fairly straight forward with what happened and why at the time of release. The biggest issue was rebuilding the combat engine - that took a lot of development time.
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Post by Xechran on Jun 2, 2016 0:05:58 GMT -8
As sweetlove has pointed out, this is the relevant passage: "If humanity's spread to the stars, then you'd expect to see all of humanity, and if you don't, then you'd wonder why." A lot of the people on this thread seem to be laboring under the misunderstanding that this is some sort of social justice screed and not the suggestion to correct an oddity in continuity that it is. Actually, the exact opposite is what you would expect. When given the opportunity to spread out, humans will do so. And they will spread out in groups. Some will be divided religiously, others politically, others ethnically. Spreading out in this way, increasing homogeneity within the group, decreases conflict and strife within that group therefore increasing its well being. That this is not the expectation is a direct result of the PC Injustice Inquisitions.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 2, 2016 1:00:12 GMT -8
Yeah, it seems quite strange that such an important part of Sunrider lore is locked away. Im not against people having early acces to it. But when you lock important story bits, its really bad for the story. IF im not mistaken, someone in the steam forums told me that the female Pact general that we saw uncovered at the end of Lib Day was in the novel where she was expanded upon. Knowing about her more would have been better because currently she just seems a random addition. In response to the last bit, yes - Kuushana was a character from the Veniczar novel. In fact, the entire dialouge between Kuushina and Fontana in the V2.00 ending is recapping the overall plot of Veniczar, which is: The origins of Alice as the first Prototype - or at least the first one considered a success by her creator, Dr. Ashada, who is revealed to be a complete callous sociopathic dick as opposed to the loving father Chigara believed him to be. It details her causing the Diode Catastrophe after murdering Dr. Ashada as revenge for her false life and to prevent other clones from suffering it, though her "sister" - her fellow clone - died in the chaos when she tried to save her.
Alice crashed on a desert world and met Obarin Knight - the previous Arcadius - and one of his lieutenents; Jemhyr Vars, a female Denari (dark-skinned human), whom Obarin detailed info about how her people lived in an entirely different expanse of the galaxy then the fair-skinned people of worlds like Cera, Solaris or the like. It even expanded on how the Denari, after originally being enslaved by the Ryuvian Empire and then "liberated" by the Solar Alliance (in reality they're pretty much backwater second-class citizens in the Alliance at large - and if I were to hazard a guess, the Denari are probably going to be one of the outlying groups the Sunrider crew draws new allies from in upcoming games). But that's neither here nor there, since Fontana doesn't even mention Obarin by name or Jemhyr and the Denari at all. Anyway, long story short; Alice joins the Compact Revolution and, over time, falls in love with Obarin/Arcadius through how much unconditional love he has for humanity, eventually drawing others like Kuushana and Fontana to his cause with her.
However, when they finally liberate New Eden, things take a violent and tragic turn when the people of the Compact demand blood for blood, intending to lynch the emperor of the New Empire. Obarin/Arcadius actually tried to save the Emperor, so as to judge him fairly I'd imagine, but in the end the very crowds of people he'd fought to liberate ended up killing him in the chaos when they stormed the palace anyway. Alice, enraged and grief-stricken, went insane from it and felt that humankind was not worth the compassion Obarin/Arcadius spent on it, believing it to be a blight that would doom the galaxy with what she felt were endless self-destructive ways. She took up Arcadius' mask with the intent to start a new war with only one goal in mind; digging humanity's grave. Kuushina, even though she was regarded as a miracle-worker in battle akin to Kayto, was ultimately exiled since she objected to Alice's vendetta and plans for war.
(NOTE - The story of the Veniczar novel never made it to the events in the last paragraph since it's writer, Woolyshambler, seemed to take a nose-dive off the face of the earth shortly after Liberation Day was released - or at least that was the last time I ever saw him active around here. As of now, we only know this based off of what Fontana and Kuushana say in V2.00)
[RE]Turn expands upon Alice and the Prototype's origins further, implying that the Alpha Prototype was created after Alice as a "purified" example of the Prototype's genomes. Additionally, Alice's later dialouge in one of the routes, commenting that she has "Sharr Myren's ghost" within her - Sharr Myren being the original pilot of the Nightmare Ascendent. It's just a fan-theory, but perhaps the reason for Alice being able to awaken and utilize a Sharr's machine is because the Prototypes might have actually been cloned from samples of Sharr Myren's DNA - and that perhaps the purpose of the Diode experiments in time-travel on cells was to help restore those DNA samples. It would also truly explain the Prototype's acute interest in Asaga and why Chigara was originally created to monitor her - they were watching her development for the day she would reach maturity as a Sharr and, from there, capture her and harvest her DNA to use in reinforcing their own and allowing them to fully reclaim their degraded Ryuvian genetic heritage, giving them full access to the Ryuvian secrets of old such as the Sharr'Lac weapons. OK - Spoiler expo over. Big point being - Kuushana in V2.00 was largely just exposition set-up to recap the events of Veniczar, Alice's reasons for hating humans and waging war, as well as set her up as what's effectively PACT's new chief strategist and High Admiral (which comes right the hell out of nowhere since there was zero allusion to anyone as supposedly legendary as a "Kuushana of the Many Miracles" before at any point - exiled or no, there ought to have been some sort of mention for someone like that if one wants her to not feel like an asspull character for anyone who's not read the still-incomplete Veniczar novel).
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 2, 2016 9:46:16 GMT -8
If I recall correctly, if you find one of the posts, it contains a table of contents to all of the other chapters. Unfortunately, I am not actively involved with the Veniczar novel because it was contracted out to another author who's been MIA as of late so I dunno what'll happen to it... Maybe I can dream of a NVL adaption. Heh. A visual novel adaption of a novel adaption of a visual novel's backstory...
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Post by sweetlove on Jun 2, 2016 11:33:29 GMT -8
OK - Spoiler expo over. Big point being - Kuushana in V2.00 was largely just exposition set-up to recap the events of Veniczar, Alice's reasons for hating humans and waging war, as well as set her up as what's effectively PACT's new chief strategist and High Admiral (which comes right the hell out of nowhere since there was zero allusion to anyone as supposedly legendary as a "Kuushana of the Many Miracles" before at any point - exiled or no, there ought to have been some sort of mention for someone like that if one wants her to not feel like an asspull character for anyone who's not read the still-incomplete Veniczar novel). I don't think everything needs foreshadowing. Just be made consistent with what has been established before. For example, I disliked Alice beause how her presence lead to the original Arcadius being completely trashed in LD. Even if Arcadius was but a mask, not even an attempt was made to salvage his character. But Kuushana, I didn't feel so bad about because there was no need in the narrative for her to be mentioned and she hasn't done anything to cause problems yet. You could even argue that such characters popping up was inevitable if Fontana was to really overthrow Arcadius, since it's been clearly implied that Arcadius' PACT was not the same as what it started from. Cullen, a former imperialist, being a good proof of this. That being said, the infodump sucked though, that I agree. Not so sure about the Ryuvian DNA though, might be more related to some function of the Nightmare Ascendant as there is no reason for Alice not to have awakened inside the Sunrider in [RE]turn otherwise. Ditto for Asaga; I'm more inclined to view what happened with her as simply part of the script than as part of any actual objective on the prototypes' part. How would they know if Asaga was qualified to awaken if they didn't already have her DNA? The Ryuvian bloodline is said to be very diluted by now. Besides, if they really wanted subjects, I'd assume that there were other targets more readily available than the bloody crown princess of the nation.
maybe in the far future ethnicity will disappear as DNA mixes more evenly in an ever more interconnected world. racial distinctions arose due to populations living for long periods far away from each other, but we may be at the cusp of an age where the opposite happens. then again, on a galactic scale perhaps there are regions that are hardly ever visited by other groups, causing the same thing to happen again. *shrug Well, thinking about it, the most likely explanation I'd attribute it to would be founder effect and the formation of a new colonial identity that probably related to their skin colour. Interesting to think about how ethnicity and race works as distinctions between social groups would work in this universe. I don't think a concept of ethnicity will disappear any time soon though- physical features are one of the easiest ways to identify groups, and even if developing communications and transportation technology make everything grow tighter together, the scale of things would also continuously be expanded, making it moot.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 2, 2016 17:16:47 GMT -8
OK - Spoiler expo over. Big point being - Kuushana in V2.00 was largely just exposition set-up to recap the events of Veniczar, Alice's reasons for hating humans and waging war, as well as set her up as what's effectively PACT's new chief strategist and High Admiral (which comes right the hell out of nowhere since there was zero allusion to anyone as supposedly legendary as a "Kuushana of the Many Miracles" before at any point - exiled or no, there ought to have been some sort of mention for someone like that if one wants her to not feel like an asspull character for anyone who's not read the still-incomplete Veniczar novel). I don't think everything needs foreshadowing. Just be made consistent with what has been established before. For example, I disliked Alice beause how her presence lead to the original Arcadius being completely trashed in LD. Even if Arcadius was but a mask, not even an attempt was made to salvage his character. But Kuushana, I didn't feel so bad about because there was no need in the narrative for her to be mentioned and she hasn't done anything to cause problems yet. You could even argue that such characters popping up was inevitable if Fontana was to really overthrow Arcadius, since it's been clearly implied that Arcadius' PACT was not the same as what it started from. Cullen, a former imperialist, being a good proof of this. That being said, the infodump sucked though, that I agree. Not so sure about the Ryuvian DNA though, might be more related to some function of the Nightmare Ascendant as there is no reason for Alice not to have awakened inside the Sunrider in [RE]turn otherwise. Ditto for Asaga; I'm more inclined to view what happened with her as simply part of the script than as part of any actual objective on the prototypes' part. How would they know if Asaga was qualified to awaken if they didn't already have her DNA? The Ryuvian bloodline is said to be very diluted by now. Besides, if they really wanted subjects, I'd assume that there were other targets more readily available than the bloody crown princess of the nation.
maybe in the far future ethnicity will disappear as DNA mixes more evenly in an ever more interconnected world. racial distinctions arose due to populations living for long periods far away from each other, but we may be at the cusp of an age where the opposite happens. then again, on a galactic scale perhaps there are regions that are hardly ever visited by other groups, causing the same thing to happen again. *shrug Well, thinking about it, the most likely explanation I'd attribute it to would be founder effect and the formation of a new colonial identity that probably related to their skin colour. Interesting to think about how ethnicity and race works as distinctions between social groups would work in this universe. I don't think a concept of ethnicity will disappear any time soon though- physical features are one of the easiest ways to identify groups, and even if developing communications and transportation technology make everything grow tighter together, the scale of things would also continuously be expanded, making it moot. The issue with that though is that we're expected to take Kuushana as pretty much Arcadius's REPLACEMENT as the driving force behind PACT's military - there is a very dire "need in the narrative for her to be mentioned" purely BECAUSE she hasn't been mentioned or even referenced once, yet she's supposed to be a legendary figure among PACT with fame matching that of Arcadius and Fontana. Even though we didn't know Fontana was going to overthrow Arcadius in the beginning, he was still set up in FA as being clever, courteous and moral simply by the small interaction he had with Asaga - there was something in the beginning from which we could see the progression of his character and understand how he'd inevitably conflict with the amoral methods Arcadius used. If this was some new PACT underling or some other random no-name Veniczar that was being made Fontana's second or the like, I would have agreed with your assessment, but Kuushana's pretty much being tossed at us as the new PACT lead (or at the very least the co-lead) who's supposedly as big a legend as Arcadius was if her title was "Kuushana of the Many Miracles". It's true that not everything needs foreshadowing, but this isn't everything - it's a specific role that's being filled by a character we knew nothing about if we didn't get the Patreon-exclusive novel, who is supposedly legendary yet we've heard not so much as a peep about in-game. For this specific instance, it feels like dropping the ball when it comes to introducing a character. As for Alice, the reason I have this theory is based on her dialouge in [RE]Turn, where she hints to the idea that she gained Awakening from the emotional turmoil she experienced in the Compact Revolution the same as Asaga did at Far Port and Helion. That points to it being something closer to a blood-trait she already had.
Also, I point out that Alice is the only surviving Prototype out of the original generation - all the others were made after her, including Alpha, so it's possible they (save Alpha) were diluted too far to have it, or perhaps even intentionally barred from it so that the power remained with the "most pure." Alice and possibly Alpha may simply be the only ones with pure enough genes to Awaken.
As for Asaga, - again, that's WHY they would have had Chigara monitor her; to see if she WAS qualified and observe her growth. Also, may I point out that because of Ryuvia's devolved status and Asaga seemingly being the ONLY daughter of the royal family (remember, Sharr's are Warrior Princesses - as in girls only?), there is pretty much NOBODY ELSE besides the bloody crown princess of the nation. Besides, if they wanted to reclaim Ryuvia and it's secrets, they'd need the Royal Family under their thumb to begin with regardless, and they would be the only ones to go to in rediscovering lost Ryuvian tech, so there's already nobody else to go to. Think of it like this - if the Prototypes were cloned from ancient samples, a fresh living one would be unquestionably more pure no matter how diluted it is over the generations (and it's obviously not been enough considering the strength of Asaga's awakening is impressive even to an ancient like Sola), so of course the genetics from that would be better for use once she "matures".
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 2, 2016 18:22:12 GMT -8
I don't think everything needs foreshadowing. Just be made consistent with what has been established before. For example, I disliked Alice beause how her presence lead to the original Arcadius being completely trashed in LD. Even if Arcadius was but a mask, not even an attempt was made to salvage his character. But Kuushana, I didn't feel so bad about because there was no need in the narrative for her to be mentioned and she hasn't done anything to cause problems yet. You could even argue that such characters popping up was inevitable if Fontana was to really overthrow Arcadius, since it's been clearly implied that Arcadius' PACT was not the same as what it started from. Cullen, a former imperialist, being a good proof of this. That being said, the infodump sucked though, that I agree. Not so sure about the Ryuvian DNA though, might be more related to some function of the Nightmare Ascendant as there is no reason for Alice not to have awakened inside the Sunrider in [RE]turn otherwise. Ditto for Asaga; I'm more inclined to view what happened with her as simply part of the script than as part of any actual objective on the prototypes' part. How would they know if Asaga was qualified to awaken if they didn't already have her DNA? The Ryuvian bloodline is said to be very diluted by now. Besides, if they really wanted subjects, I'd assume that there were other targets more readily available than the bloody crown princess of the nation.
Well, thinking about it, the most likely explanation I'd attribute it to would be founder effect and the formation of a new colonial identity that probably related to their skin colour. Interesting to think about how ethnicity and race works as distinctions between social groups would work in this universe. I don't think a concept of ethnicity will disappear any time soon though- physical features are one of the easiest ways to identify groups, and even if developing communications and transportation technology make everything grow tighter together, the scale of things would also continuously be expanded, making it moot. The issue with that though is that we're expected to take Kuushana as pretty much Arcadius's REPLACEMENT as the driving force behind PACT's military - there is a very dire "need in the narrative for her to be mentioned" purely BECAUSE she hasn't been mentioned or even referenced once, yet she's supposed to be a legendary figure among PACT with fame matching that of Arcadius and Fontana. Even though we didn't know Fontana was going to overthrow Arcadius in the beginning, he was still set up in FA as being clever, courteous and moral simply by the small interaction he had with Asaga - there was something in the beginning from which we could see the progression of his character and understand how he'd inevitably conflict with the amoral methods Arcadius used. If this was some new PACT underling or some other random no-name Veniczar that was being made Fontana's second or the like, I would have agreed with your assessment, but Kuushana's pretty much being tossed at us as the new PACT lead (or at the very least the co-lead) who's supposedly as big a legend as Arcadius was if her title was "Kuushana of the Many Miracles". It's true that not everything needs foreshadowing, but this isn't everything - it's a specific role that's being filled by a character we knew nothing about if we didn't get the Patreon-exclusive novel, who is supposedly legendary yet we've heard not so much as a peep about in-game. For this specific instance, it feels like dropping the ball when it comes to introducing a character. As for Alice, the reason I have this theory is based on her dialouge in [RE]Turn, where she hints to the idea that she gained Awakening from the emotional turmoil she experienced in the Compact Revolution the same as Asaga did at Far Port and Helion. That points to it being something closer to a blood-trait she already had.
Also, I point out that Alice is the only surviving Prototype out of the original generation - all the others were made after her, including Alpha, so it's possible they (save Alpha) were diluted too far to have it, or perhaps even intentionally barred from it so that the power remained with the "most pure." Alice and possibly Alpha may simply be the only ones with pure enough genes to Awaken.
As for Asaga, - again, that's WHY they would have had Chigara monitor her; to see if she WAS qualified and observe her growth. Also, may I point out that because of Ryuvia's devolved status and Asaga seemingly being the ONLY daughter of the royal family (remember, Sharr's are Warrior Princesses - as in girls only?), there is pretty much NOBODY ELSE besides the bloody crown princess of the nation. Besides, if they wanted to reclaim Ryuvia and it's secrets, they'd need the Royal Family under their thumb to begin with regardless, and they would be the only ones to go to in rediscovering lost Ryuvian tech, so there's already nobody else to go to. Think of it like this - if the Prototypes were cloned from ancient samples, a fresh living one would be unquestionably more pure no matter how diluted it is over the generations (and it's obviously not been enough considering the strength of Asaga's awakening is impressive even to an ancient like Sola), so of course the genetics from that would be better for use once she "matures". I don't think Kuushana's entry was sudden at all, it was relatively smooth. We've just reach the halfway point and all we did was toss one big bad with little screen time and replaced it with another big bad with little screen time. We're only two episodes in, if we went any faster then I'd feel like we've been rushing through it.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 2, 2016 21:16:41 GMT -8
I don't think Kuushana's entry was sudden at all, it was relatively smooth. We've just reach the halfway point and all we did was toss one big bad with little screen time and replaced it with another big bad with little screen time. We're only two episodes in, if we went any faster then I'd feel like we've been rushing through it. Respectfully, I completely disagree - considering the position she's coming into and the supposed history she has both with the PACT main characters and her apparent status as a war-legend, it didn't feel smooth in the slightest; it felt very abrupt. And no, Alice was not in fact "one big bad with little screen time" since she was present since FA - rather, I think she was a big bad with little (in-game) BACKSTORY, which is arguably a far worse state for a character to be in. Especially when you're trying to push them into such a pivotal position. Also, I think LibDay is technically the third episode - First Arrival and Mask of Arcadius count more as the first and second.
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 3, 2016 1:28:32 GMT -8
I don't think Kuushana's entry was sudden at all, it was relatively smooth. We've just reach the halfway point and all we did was toss one big bad with little screen time and replaced it with another big bad with little screen time. We're only two episodes in, if we went any faster then I'd feel like we've been rushing through it. Respectfully, I completely disagree - considering the position she's coming into and the supposed history she has both with the PACT main characters and her apparent status as a war-legend, it didn't feel smooth in the slightest; it felt very abrupt. And no, Alice was not in fact "one big bad with little screen time" since she was present since FA - rather, I think she was a big bad with little (in-game) BACKSTORY, which is arguably a far worse state for a character to be in. Especially when you're trying to push them into such a pivotal position. Also, I think LibDay is technically the third episode - First Arrival and Mask of Arcadius count more as the first and second. I did not mean Alice, I meant the "Arcadius" that was shot by Fontana. And considering the amount of time we knew Alice to be Alice, which did not happen until LD, it's still relatively little screen time. On second thought... Each arc seems to have their own big bad. In FA, it was that chubby red-mustached person whose name I can't recall. In MoA, the big bad was Arcadius. In LD, it was Alice. And now in XXX, it's Kuushana.
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Post by Xechran on Jun 3, 2016 3:29:54 GMT -8
Well, I just finished (literally just now) MoA again and according to that the next installment is Sunrider: Return of the Holy Ryuvian Empire, or some such. Was surprised that popped up since it described the events of Liberation Day as normal then gave a different title.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 3, 2016 15:16:40 GMT -8
Respectfully, I completely disagree - considering the position she's coming into and the supposed history she has both with the PACT main characters and her apparent status as a war-legend, it didn't feel smooth in the slightest; it felt very abrupt. And no, Alice was not in fact "one big bad with little screen time" since she was present since FA - rather, I think she was a big bad with little (in-game) BACKSTORY, which is arguably a far worse state for a character to be in. Especially when you're trying to push them into such a pivotal position. Also, I think LibDay is technically the third episode - First Arrival and Mask of Arcadius count more as the first and second. I did not mean Alice, I meant the "Arcadius" that was shot by Fontana. And considering the amount of time we knew Alice to be Alice, which did not happen until LD, it's still relatively little screen time. On second thought... Each arc seems to have their own big bad. In FA, it was that chubby red-mustached person whose name I can't recall. In MoA, the big bad was Arcadius. In LD, it was Alice. And now in XXX, it's Kuushana. That IS "Alice" - that is who Arcadius was behind the mask. It is the same character by a different name. So yes, we did have plenty of screen-time with her - we learned she was ruthless, pragmatic, clever and a fanatic. You're basically giving me a strawman argument here - it's the same as saying we simply never got to know this character period. Which hurt her development. That's the same for Kuushana. No - the "big bad" in MoA and LibDay never changed. Only the title we knew her by.
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Post by valikdu on Jun 3, 2016 15:21:17 GMT -8
Well, to be really precise, we've only *seen* Alice's expendable proxies in the first game. Considering that Fontana shot the "Arcadius", and we've killed all the others in combat except for one, the actual Alice wasn't seen once. But that's not really important.
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 3, 2016 15:51:46 GMT -8
I did not mean Alice, I meant the "Arcadius" that was shot by Fontana. And considering the amount of time we knew Alice to be Alice, which did not happen until LD, it's still relatively little screen time. On second thought... Each arc seems to have their own big bad. In FA, it was that chubby red-mustached person whose name I can't recall. In MoA, the big bad was Arcadius. In LD, it was Alice. And now in XXX, it's Kuushana. That IS "Alice" - that is who Arcadius was behind the mask. It is the same character by a different name. So yes, we did have plenty of screen-time with her - we learned she was ruthless, pragmatic, clever and a fanatic. You're basically giving me a strawman argument here - it's the same as saying we simply never got to know this character period. Which hurt her development. That's the same for Kuushana. No - the "big bad" in MoA and LibDay never changed. Only the title we knew her by. Yes, we know that is Alice with hindsight. Without hindsight, they may as well be different characters. Whether or not his is a strawman's argument, this is a take it at face value argument. Without reading more into depth, this is what we have. Perhaps big bad isn't the right word then. The one that took the spotlight as our main enemy certainly did change.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 3, 2016 16:19:34 GMT -8
That IS "Alice" - that is who Arcadius was behind the mask. It is the same character by a different name. So yes, we did have plenty of screen-time with her - we learned she was ruthless, pragmatic, clever and a fanatic. You're basically giving me a strawman argument here - it's the same as saying we simply never got to know this character period. Which hurt her development. That's the same for Kuushana. No - the "big bad" in MoA and LibDay never changed. Only the title we knew her by. Yes, we know that is Alice with hindsight. Without hindsight, they may as well be different characters. Whether or not his is a strawman's argument, this is a take it at face value argument. Without reading more into depth, this is what we have. Perhaps big bad isn't the right word then. The one that took the spotlight as our main enemy certainly did change. No - that is again a strawman argument and so is trying to claim it a "face-value argument"; quite honestly, that's bullshit to me. They are the same character - their personalities, their history, their backgrounds; those DID NOT CHANGE. "Without reading more into depth", that is how it is and that does not change simply because we know Alice's true name. No - no it really didn't. It was the same person it was in MoA - the only thing that changed was the name, and that alone changes nothing. You're trying to take semantics and make it seem like some big definition that isn't there, and fighting over it is derailing from what the original point was; that an character being just dropped on us all of a sudden like Kuushana is simply isn't a very good way to introduce a new antagonist. You can get away with that in introductory games where everything is still being established, but not this far in the game so to speak.
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 3, 2016 16:46:46 GMT -8
Yes, we know that is Alice with hindsight. Without hindsight, they may as well be different characters. Whether or not his is a strawman's argument, this is a take it at face value argument. Without reading more into depth, this is what we have. Perhaps big bad isn't the right word then. The one that took the spotlight as our main enemy certainly did change. No - that is again a strawman argument and so is trying to claim it a "face-value argument"; quite honestly, that's bullshit to me. They are the same character - their personalities, their history, their backgrounds; those DID NOT CHANGE. "Without reading more into depth", that is how it is and that does not change simply because we know Alice's true name. No - no it really didn't. It was the same person it was in MoA - the only thing that changed was the name, and that alone changes nothing. You're trying to take semantics and make it seem like some big definition that isn't there, and fighting over it is derailing from what the original point was; that an character being just dropped on us all of a sudden like Kuushana is simply isn't a very good way to introduce a new antagonist. You can get away with that in introductory games where everything is still being established, but not this far in the game so to speak. Hm, again. It's only the se- third episode. There's presumably going to be many, many more bosses in the future. Having one dropped on us is as sudden as a new boss dropping in on episode 7. Edit: Note, anytime you start using any cursory language with me on a topic, I will immediately drop it.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jun 3, 2016 19:41:26 GMT -8
No - that is again a strawman argument and so is trying to claim it a "face-value argument"; quite honestly, that's bullshit to me. They are the same character - their personalities, their history, their backgrounds; those DID NOT CHANGE. "Without reading more into depth", that is how it is and that does not change simply because we know Alice's true name. No - no it really didn't. It was the same person it was in MoA - the only thing that changed was the name, and that alone changes nothing. You're trying to take semantics and make it seem like some big definition that isn't there, and fighting over it is derailing from what the original point was; that an character being just dropped on us all of a sudden like Kuushana is simply isn't a very good way to introduce a new antagonist. You can get away with that in introductory games where everything is still being established, but not this far in the game so to speak. Hm, again. It's only the se- third episode. There's presumably going to be many, many more bosses in the future. Having one dropped on us is as sudden as a new boss dropping in on episode 7. Edit: Note, anytime you start using any cursory language with me on a topic, I will immediately drop it. But those are entirely different contexts. Speaking of 7th episodes, let's look at Star Wars: The Force Awakens as an example. It's an entirely new time period and storyline with a brand new cast of leading characters - it's basically FIRST FILM of a new series, where said new cast must first be introduced before being properly established. Also, Episode 7 introduced it's characters as having some form of fame or infamy in their setting that we see - that they were known in the wider universe as threatening people. We hear about characters like Snoke before we actually see them, even if just in passing mention, so that there is some form of build-up or expectation present for this new face; thats a good way to build up the big bad of a new storyline. By sharp contrast, Kuushana is a character who is introduced several entries into the current storyline as someone who's apparently as famous as Arcadius herself... yet we've never heard anything about her. Not so much as a single peep. And yet she's pretty much becoming the new big bad out of nowhere. This is a pattern that's arguably very detrimental to games. Also, I think a boss is the worst way to describe it - Kuushana is an antagonist, which is not necessarily the same thing as a boss; Cullen proved that since he was a recurring villain in FA but not an actual unit we had to fight. See, your claim only works as far as battlefield nobodies go - however, random small-time bosses or lieutenants are one thing, while faction leaders, especially ones who you're giving some kind of legend-enshrined backstory as this "Kuushana of the Many Miracles" does, are another story entirely. With Cullen and Fontana, they were readily established well before their respective confrontations, their characters showing the core of who they were even before we had their full backstories such as in Fontana's case (his wasn't revealed till MoA). Even Crow Harbor is being foreshadowed and built up better because we were alluded to him from the very start as a historical figure. With Kuushana... nothing. Unless you've read the patreon novel, which isn't even complete by the way, you're not going to know anything about her. It's pretty much the same as saying you were expected to have read Veniczar by this point (and even if that's not the intent, that's still how it feels) instead of being able to connect with this character from an in-game perspective. Stuff like this all comes down to execution and how you build off of it - and for the role of a long-term antagonist like what Kuushana seems to be pushing for, it wasn't done well enough to make her appearance feel like much else but an asspull. Edit: Ugh, again with this? This is not some college-debate forum - what does the language have to do with the topic? Dropping a topic over that of all things is ABSURD - it's whether or not the person doesn't stoop to personal attacks or the like (calling someone a dumbass over differing views or the like) that tend to make people drop a topic.
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Post by 白龍 on Jun 3, 2016 20:29:45 GMT -8
Hm, again. It's only the se- third episode. There's presumably going to be many, many more bosses in the future. Having one dropped on us is as sudden as a new boss dropping in on episode 7. Edit: Note, anytime you start using any cursory language with me on a topic, I will immediately drop it. But those are entirely different contexts. Speaking of 7th episodes, let's look at Star Wars: The Force Awakens as an example. It's an entirely new time period and storyline with a brand new cast of leading characters - it's basically FIRST FILM of a new series, where said new cast must first be introduced before being properly established. Also, Episode 7 introduced it's characters as having some form of fame or infamy in their setting that we see - that they were known in the wider universe as threatening people. We hear about characters like Snoke before we actually see them, even if just in passing mention, so that there is some form of build-up or expectation present for this new face; thats a good way to build up the big bad of a new storyline. By sharp contrast, Kuushana is a character who is introduced several entries into the current storyline as someone who's apparently as famous as Arcadius herself... yet we've never heard anything about her. Not so much as a single peep. And yet she's pretty much becoming the new big bad out of nowhere. This is a pattern that's arguably very detrimental to games. Also, I think a boss is the worst way to describe it - Kuushana is an antagonist, which is not necessarily the same thing as a boss; Cullen proved that since he was a recurring villain in FA but not an actual unit we had to fight. See, your claim only works as far as battlefield nobodies go - however, random small-time bosses or lieutenants are one thing, while faction leaders, especially ones who you're giving some kind of legend-enshrined backstory as this "Kuushana of the Many Miracles" does, are another story entirely. With Cullen and Fontana, they were readily established well before their respective confrontations, their characters showing the core of who they were even before we had their full backstories such as in Fontana's case (his wasn't revealed till MoA). Even Crow Harbor is being foreshadowed and built up better because we were alluded to him from the very start as a historical figure. With Kuushana... nothing. Unless you've read the patreon novel, which isn't even complete by the way, you're not going to know anything about her. It's pretty much the same as saying you were expected to have read Veniczar by this point (and even if that's not the intent, that's still how it feels) instead of being able to connect with this character from an in-game perspective. Stuff like this all comes down to execution and how you build off of it - and for the role of a long-term antagonist like what Kuushana seems to be pushing for, it wasn't done well enough to make her appearance feel like much else but an asspull. Edit: Ugh, again with this? This is not some college-debate forum - what does the language have to do with the topic? Dropping a topic over that of all things is ABSURD - it's whether or not the person doesn't stoop to personal attacks or the like (calling someone a dumbass over differing views or the like) that tend to make people drop a topic. Then in what scenario could we have safely introduced Kuushana? Considered how she was imprisoned throughout most of the game. And most of the story is told from Shield's point of view with only tidbits from the other side. What would be a good scenario to ease her introduction. I believe this is the first time I have brought this up but indeed, language is everything in a conversation. The moment one stoops to using obscene language is the moment when they stop respecting the other individual's input into the conversation. I ask for the same amount of civility as I give out and thus I will not respond if treated as such. Call me old fashioned if you wish, I come from an environment where censorship is everywhere mind you and I do not particularly wish to indulge my free speech in uncivilized conversations.
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