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Post by Nemjen on Jul 8, 2016 14:36:35 GMT -8
I guess what I am getting out is with the split is that for me there are two main parts to a VN, you have the underlining story arc on one side and lore/characterisation on the other. LD had a story arc however I felt that there were ongoing missed opportunities to talk; politics, galactic relationships, Sunrider lifestyle etc which would have broken down the story from feeling as though event just went straight into another event giving no perspective of time.
Not really sure why feedback on what I want to see in the story is prompting you to try and disprove it with this 'undo the narrative' angle (especially considering it is something I am not referencing), if anything it feels as though you keep trying to lump your opinion into mine to justify it? Well if it helps I guess for the record I can summarise for you just to confirm that I don't agree with this angle:
I am perfectly happy to accept Liberation Day as an entry but would like to see more expansion done on top of the universe it has established, this for me was partially fulfilled via the narration of 2.00 however I would like to see the series go even further while not sacrificing the unique identity created by its RTS elements.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 8, 2016 15:04:29 GMT -8
I guess what I am getting out is with the split is that for me there are two main parts to a VN, you have the underlining story arc on one side and lore/characterisation on the other. LD had a story arc however I felt that there were ongoing missed opportunities to talk; politics, galactic relationships, Sunrider lifestyle etc which would have broken down the story from feeling as though event just went straight into another event giving no perspective of time. Not really sure why feedback on what I want to see in the story is prompting you to try and disprove it with this 'undo the narrative' angle (especially considering it is something I am not referencing), if anything it feels as though you keep trying to lump your opinion into mine to justify it? Well if it helps I guess for the record I can summarise for you just to confirm that I don't agree with this angle:
I am perfectly happy to accept Liberation Day as an entry but would like to see more expansion done on top of the universe it has established, this for me was partially fulfilled via the narration of 2.00 however I would like to see the series go even further while not sacrificing the unique identity created by its RTS elements.For a lot of people though, that was secondary - what they primarily felt was missing was whole chunks of the story itself and large parts of character development. What you're talking about is extra stuff - that's not so much the flesh that was missing as it was the additions that would have spruced it up. LD's story arc was compressed - it tried to fit too much into too small a timeframe (only two arcs and some side-missions) when you typically need at least three arcs to properly get the start, buildup and climax done right. The Sunrider lifestyle stuff needed a longer arc/an extra arc to even implement that stuff, because the timeframes of the current arc's layouts wouldn't have been able to fit that extra stuff in the first place. That's just it - you couldn't possibly be more wrong about that. I don't want to "undo the narrative" - I want to REINFORCE IT. It's the same reason why Dex keeps arguing this - somehow, you and others don't seem to get that I'm not asking for anything to really be changed, or that the things I'm suggesting wouldn't alter the narrative in the slightest. I'm asking that what was done with [RE]Turn just get done for the main story - a new arc that would actually provide enough time to build the needed character development to make LibDay's ending not feel like a rushed mess. Also, FYI, YOU were the one that brought up the discussion you had with your own friends about what LibDay's narrative was missing - I just commented on that in turn. Again, here's the thing - THAT'S WHAT I WANT AS WELL. I just want it done for LibDay as opposed to trying to rectify or, in worst-case, retcon or overlap via backtracking and hindsight in the future games, because the missteps of LibDay are going to be continually felt throughout future entries until they're addressed. Your belief is that it should be done latter - my belief is that it should be done sooner and that [RE]Turn points to something of a misinterpretation of what the devs think their efforts to fix said story should have gone. |
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Post by varzov on Jul 9, 2016 5:51:01 GMT -8
Making VNs is comparatively cheap, yes. Making a fully voiced VN, however, isn't. No matter the quality of voiceactors, if you're doing it on Sunrider's budget it'll still cost an arm and a leg. So of course they ended up cutting a lot of text and content, that's what you do when you have to budget for VA. Which is why making LD fully voiced was completely mind-boggling. Why bother, really? It wasn't voiced before, getting VA onboard halfway through seems counterintuitive. Why was it even done? Who demanded it, the fans? Was it, together with that neat animation sequence at the start, done so they could pitch the game to someone? Or maybe they simply felt they could generate more interest for Sunrider that way? I just can't get my head around it. Then again, I don't read VNs all that often, and I know jack shit about the trends in that segment of the industry. Maybe it all makes sense. I sure hope it does. SaveThe VO's weren't a necessity, though - they were a choice. Not to mention that, according to Samu himself, the VO's WEREN'T all that expensive and the belief that they took from the budget heavily was a complete misnomer. It was, according to him, his own choice to write LibDay as he did rather then any form of budget constraint. Well, this feels really strange. When I look at LibDay, from a purely professional standpoint it really reminds me of all those projects that had to be rushed with massive content cuts across the board , but if the budget wasn't the problem, it's flawed on an entirely different level. Damn shame.
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Post by varzov on Jul 9, 2016 5:53:15 GMT -8
Really don't think Sam is gonna fire himself nor do I think the writing in Libday is -that- terrible. Maybe the story isn't as great as you were hoping but I've seen far worse. Well yes, it's definitely better than nothing. Save |
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Post by vaendryl on Jul 9, 2016 8:36:57 GMT -8
It would seem that rather than budget, time was much more of a constraint - or more specifically, Sam's time was very limited. If he didn't have to spend so much time dealing with the voicing, creating and balancing battles and all the other things taking away his time as a director, his time as a writer would've surely been much increased.
Still, as I understand it this was a conscious decision as Sam has mentioned before that he had the impression that people were overall more interested in the battles than 'slice of space-life' moments so that's what he spent more of his time on.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 9, 2016 8:53:43 GMT -8
It would seem that rather than budget, time was much more of a constraint - or more specifically, Sam's time was very limited. If he didn't have to spend so much time dealing with the voicing, creating and balancing battles and all the other things taking away his time as a director, his time as a writer would've surely been much increased. Still, as I understand it this was a conscious decision as Sam has mentioned before that he had the impression that people were overall more interested in the battles than 'slice of space-life' moments so that's what he spent more of his time on. The thing with that though is that it more feels like everyone praising the battles should have been a sign that there wasn't any need to keep improving on that - that the battle stuff was already at the level people wanted it to be - shouldn't it? |
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Post by Dextix on Jul 9, 2016 11:28:15 GMT -8
It would seem that rather than budget, time was much more of a constraint - or more specifically, Sam's time was very limited. If he didn't have to spend so much time dealing with the voicing, creating and balancing battles and all the other things taking away his time as a director, his time as a writer would've surely been much increased. Still, as I understand it this was a conscious decision as Sam has mentioned before that he had the impression that people were overall more interested in the battles than 'slice of space-life' moments so that's what he spent more of his time on. Buuuuuuullshit! He had over a year to do this. J.K Rowling wrote some of her Harry Potter books in one year. I have seen great quality fanfictions with over 300k words written in the span of one year. Unless he had a week to write the story i call bullshit on time limitations. Even a month of dedicating to writting and scene creating would result in a better and more fleshed out story, and with two, you could create something really great. This is not a resource intensive project, it is a TBS paired with a VN. Both are one of the easiest genres to actually make, especially in a short time span. And they can easily be polished into high quality games with enough talent and care. To add more to that, voiceacting was unnecesarry! There was no need for it! This is not a AAA game, even some AAA games dont have voiceacting and they turn out simply great! If resources have to be taken away from things that matter to make useless voiceacting real, its simply not resource efffective and stupid from a game standpoint. The strenght of indie games, is that they explore deep stories, have interesting ideas, gameplay and stories. They are not needed to be on highest quality, al that matters is are they good in other aspects. To conclude, again. Even if he had 1 or 2 months for writting, it should have been more than enough to create a good, full of content story, with actual progression, exposition, rising action and not a shit climax. And yes, while people were interested in battles. It didnt mean that it has to result in a story downgrade, because story , the world and the setting were the most important parts! You could have this as a simple VN and it still would be good, not as good as with combat, but still good enough. (Althugh in Lib Day, without combat, Lib Day would be utter crap) . Combat is what help this VN to stand out, but it is not the main goddamn part of the game. It just sounds like the stupid logic used by COD. Who cares if our story is nonsensical and basically even more stupid than what michael bay does, look at our graphics and gun play!! It is rushed and lazy writting, and i dont thinkk time constraints had anything to do with it. Unless all he had to write a story was one week, but then thats an issue of time management. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 9, 2016 11:45:26 GMT -8
It would seem that rather than budget, time was much more of a constraint - or more specifically, Sam's time was very limited. If he didn't have to spend so much time dealing with the voicing, creating and balancing battles and all the other things taking away his time as a director, his time as a writer would've surely been much increased. Still, as I understand it this was a conscious decision as Sam has mentioned before that he had the impression that people were overall more interested in the battles than 'slice of space-life' moments so that's what he spent more of his time on. Buuuuuuullshit! He had over a year to do this. J.K Rowling wrote some of her Harry Potter books in one year. I have seen great quality fanfictions with over 300k words written in the span of one year. Unless he had a week to write the story i call bullshit on time limitations. Even a month of dedicating to writting and scene creating would result in a better and more fleshed out story, and with two, you could create something really great. This is not a resource intensive project, it is a TBS paired with a VN. Both are one of the easiest genres to actually make, especially in a short time span. And they can easily be polished into high quality games with enough talent and care. To add more to that, voiceacting was unnecesarry! There was no need for it! This is not a AAA game, even some AAA games dont have voiceacting and they turn out simply great! If resources have to be taken away from things that matter to make useless voiceacting real, its simply not resource efffective and stupid from a game standpoint. The strenght of indie games, is that they explore deep stories, have interesting ideas, gameplay and stories. They are not needed to be on highest quality, al that matters is are they good in other aspects. To conclude, again. Even if he had 1 or 2 months for writting, it should have been more than enough to create a good, full of content story, with actual progression, exposition, rising action and not a shit climax. And yes, while people were interested in battles. It didnt mean that it has to result in a story downgrade, because story , the world and the setting were the most important parts! You could have this as a simple VN and it still would be good, not as good as with combat, but still good enough. (Althugh in Lib Day, without combat, Lib Day would be utter crap) . Combat is what help this VN to stand out, but it is not the main goddamn part of the game. It just sounds like the stupid logic used by COD. Who cares if our story is nonsensical and basically even more stupid than what michael bay does, look at our graphics and gun play!! It is rushed and lazy writting, and i dont thinkk time constraints had anything to do with it. Unless all he had to write a story was one week, but then thats an issue of time management. I think Vaen's point was that Samu simply didn't focus that time into the writing the way J.K. Rowling did with Harry Potter, as opposed to him just not having the available time... though that could just as easily lead to accusations of Samu being guilty of time *mismanagement*, TBH. Samu also focused quite a lot more on promotional stuff then he did the last two games, so that probably consumed more time as well - or in short, I guess this is what you meant when you said there should have been a second writer so that Samu could have had a bit more freedom for his own time, no? Personally speaking, it also seems like Samu gives conflicting statements nowadays - one moment he says he did LibDay "true to his original vision", even though the last minute he remarks on how he made a bunch of additions to it (mainly fanservice) because he felt that was what the market was more geared towards. Another moment he'll talk about how he didn't want to drastically alter the story he had in mind with too much extra, yet will admit to having cut out entire arcs as far back as MoA, in which two whole arcs were cut both from time-constraints and, if I recall correctly, from putting a bunch of money into the beach-prologue. One arc was with with Claude as temporary XO to explore her personality under duress, and the other was about Icari dealing with her family's murderer to explore both her full story and give Kayto a glimpse into what the cost of vengeance is - AKA, a foreshadowing for his confrontation with the Legion. Both got cut from the game, though might be re-implemented in later installments. As for the voice-acting, Samu was probably trying to become more "professional" since he'd always wanted full VO's, but I think the better way to do it would have been to do what Type-MOON did for Fate/Stay Night - which was complete and refine the story and gameplay FIRST, and THEN create a VO pack as a DLC afterword with whatever money was left-over; you know, wait until the game itself has a good story and gameplay and then polish it all up before you focus on extras/gimmicks/miscellaneous. |
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Post by Dextix on Jul 9, 2016 12:27:32 GMT -8
Aye Sharry, i understood the point. That is why i said, 2 months would be enough, of course if during those months the main focus would be the story. There was really, enough time, to do everything the game set out to do. The only way, there could have been time constraints is either lazyness or shitty time managementt. And if you have a VN as your game, you NEVER prioritize any other things than wrritting and story, NEVER. The main atttraction of VN's is the story and writting. Even with the TBS bits, this is a VN.
And i never said there should be a second writter. What i have said is that the current should be fired as he obiviously cannot do his job, and a new one hired. To add on to this. If you KNOW you wont have enough time to do everything, why not hire some actuall help or even ask for some community input, especially from talented modders.
And if those two things were REALLY cut out from the game, whatever respect i had to the writter, just vanished. Are you goddamn serious. Such important things were cut out! What the actuall hell!
The further we go, the further i think that this whole series simply has to be rehashed.
What i mean, it should receive something of a remastered version, even if it will be have to be paid for. Despite both 2 games being good, their stories were also weak in places, not even talkingabout Lib Day. And combat feels a bit ddisjointed since it is constantly changing and improving.
Thus at least in my honest opinion, all the current iterations and any follow ups (That may end up like Lib Day) should be remastered into a better version, with vastly expanded dialogs, scenes, music, combat, upgrades and choises that actually matter.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 9, 2016 18:12:45 GMT -8
Aye Sharry, i understood the point. That is why i said, 2 months would be enough, of course if during those months the main focus would be the story. There was really, enough time, to do everything the game set out to do. The only way, there could have been time constraints is either lazyness or shitty time managementt. And if you have a VN as your game, you NEVER prioritize any other things than wrritting and story, NEVER. The main atttraction of VN's is the story and writting. Even with the TBS bits, this is a VN. And i never said there should be a second writter. What i have said is that the current should be fired as he obiviously cannot do his job, and a new one hired. To add on to this. If you KNOW you wont have enough time to do everything, why not hire some actuall help or even ask for some community input, especially from talented modders. And if those two things were REALLY cut out from the game, whatever respect i had to the writter, just vanished. Are you goddamn serious. Such important things were cut out! What the actuall hell! The further we go, the further i think that this whole series simply has to be rehashed. What i mean, it should receive something of a remastered version, even if it will be have to be paid for. Despite both 2 games being good, their stories were also weak in places, not even talkingabout Lib Day. And combat feels a bit ddisjointed since it is constantly changing and improving. Thus at least in my honest opinion, all the current iterations and any follow ups (That may end up like Lib Day) should be remastered into a better version, with vastly expanded dialogs, scenes, music, combat, upgrades and choises that actually matter. I guess that comes down to that whole confidence/arrogance thing - he obviously felt what he had was acceptable to him, or else he'd have just pushed back the release date. Of course, he might have driven himself into a corner by releasing so much promotional stuff for it that, by the time all was said and done, he couldn't push it back even if he HAD wanted to. Or, alternatively, he really did think it was fine as is. Now, the thing with the writer business is that, last I checked Samu himself IS the writer and has been for all the games. Don't know if he can really fire himself from that, but maybe getting a new one would free him up somewhat? As for community help, Magpie and a few others made a case (or at least tried to) about how they thought "writing based on demand" or the like would mean creating a game that was written more by fans then by Samu himself, or something along those lines - You'd have to ask one of them. As for the stuff about the cut arcs... yeah, I'm serious about that. There's even a statement from Samu himself admitting this on the old fourms, with details about what the respective arcs would have focused on being mentioned latter on (Though IDK if it was on the same page) - innomenpro.com/forums/index.php?topic=1262.120 With extra content, be it post-fixes or a "Remastered Edition"... maybe. but Samu - along with some of his stronger supporters like Vaen and Magpie - seem to argue against it on the belief that adding mid-game content would alter the narrative going forward... even though I really think that kind of thing is easily correctable since the whole point of extra/DLC mid-game content in general is to NOT alter the narrative but simply expand and reinforce it, perhaps by adding some extra contexts to things. Would an arc that actually makes the Chigara relationship likable be that bad - especially since the one character who was never properly addressed or expanded upon in either LibDay or even [RE]Turn was Chigara herself? Hell, when Samu made the addition of [RE]Turn to the game, he had it re-titled "Captain's Edition" as if to hammer in the point that he probably considers [RE]Turn to be said remaster - though that might just be my own salt on it, so if anyone knows differently I'd like to know. |
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Post by Dextix on Jul 9, 2016 20:14:37 GMT -8
I know that the case of "Writting on demand" was made, however what i meant, is to ask people, especiallymodders to help with other aspects.
Yandere sim is a game that is still being created, Yandre-dev (The creator) has a team of volunteers working with him, creating asssets and doing simmilar things. He knows he cant do it alone. The writter should have then asked for help from others or other talented people to help with combat, maybe art, or sound design, or even possibly creatingscenes (Not the dialog or story, but the visual representations of scenes).
If there really was not enough time, he as a writter should have focused on writting and expanding the story.
And cut arcs, i just found the quote....
Mask of Arcadius was a developmental mess because we ran out of money and had to cut half the planned content. Either we had to cut around 3-4 hours of content revolving around Claude and Icari's stories, or cut the beach episode. As you can see, the backers won and the game was gutted, but hey, we lived up to our Kickstarter promise of a beach episode. As a director though, making that cut for a beach episode was damning, so I'm not going to bend over backwards to make some backers happy and ruin the game again.
This is one of the biggest, fcking problems with kickstarter. Simply idiotic promises made by the creators, who then cant do it because of budget! Dont promise what you cant do! The backers won and the game was gutted? Bend over backwards to make some backers happy and ruin the game again? ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS! It was HIS fault noone elses that situation arose in the first fcking place and then he blames the backers, the guys who gave him money! What the hell is wrong with this arrogant prick! YOU made the promise for fck sakes!
The more i read about him the more respect i lose to him not only as a writter, but as a human being.
And adding mid game content would not alter anything, it would improve everything. More content is ALWAYS better. What if you had the cut out icari arc? How would it change the narrative besides improving it? What if we had actual interactions with cossete in Lib day? The story can only be made better, and the combat to be as good as it will be when its rfully improved from the first game would be good too.
Again, Divinity original sin, was a game, a good game that was kickstarted a few years back. It was an above average game. And then the remastered edition came and blew the old one of of the water as the remastered edition improved EVERYTHING across the board and made the game a lot better than it ever was before.
The only reason i see for not making a remastered version, is lazyness. The same that we can perceive in all of the three games, especially with the story. Now i know that this seems not right to those who like him, but seriously. What other actuall explanations are there?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 9, 2016 20:57:50 GMT -8
I know that the case of "Writting on demand" was made, however what i meant, is to ask people, especiallymodders to help with other aspects. Yandere sim is a game that is still being created, Yandre-dev (The creator) has a team of volunteers working with him, creating asssets and doing simmilar things. He knows he cant do it alone. The writter should have then asked for help from others or other talented people to help with combat, maybe art, or sound design, or even possibly creatingscenes (Not the dialog or story, but the visual representations of scenes). If there really was not enough time, he as a writter should have focused on writting and expanding the story. And cut arcs, i just found the quote.... Mask of Arcadius was a developmental mess because we ran out of money and had to cut half the planned content. Either we had to cut around 3-4 hours of content revolving around Claude and Icari's stories, or cut the beach episode. As you can see, the backers won and the game was gutted, but hey, we lived up to our Kickstarter promise of a beach episode. As a director though, making that cut for a beach episode was damning, so I'm not going to bend over backwards to make some backers happy and ruin the game again.This is one of the biggest, fcking problems with kickstarter. Simply idiotic promises made by the creators, who then cant do it because of budget! Dont promise what you cant do! The backers won and the game was gutted? Bend over backwards to make some backers happy and ruin the game again? ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS! It was HIS fault noone elses that situation arose in the first fcking place and then he blames the backers, the guys who gave him money! What the hell is wrong with this arrogant prick! YOU made the promise for fck sakes! The more i read about him the more respect i lose to him not only as a writter, but as a human being. And adding mid game content would not alter anything, it would improve everything. More content is ALWAYS better. What if you had the cut out icari arc? How would it change the narrative besides improving it? What if we had actual interactions with cossete in Lib day? The story can only be made better, and the combat to be as good as it will be when its rfully improved from the first game would be good too. Again, Divinity original sin, was a game, a good game that was kickstarted a few years back. It was an above average game. And then the remastered edition came and blew the old one of of the water as the remastered edition improved EVERYTHING across the board and made the game a lot better than it ever was before. The only reason i see for not making a remastered version, is lazyness. The same that we can perceive in all of the three games, especially with the story. Now i know that this seems not right to those who like him, but seriously. What other actuall explanations are there? I can get that part. For the record, I'm pretty sure vaendryl is the one who coded and designed a lot of the battle scenes. IDK who else is on staff, though, besides those two. Not gonna ask - not sure if I'm on good enough terms with him. Well, on the kickstarter thing... to be fair, I don't remember anyone saying the obligatory beach episode had to be all that big, let alone be the entire prologue to MoA as a "shore leave" mini-arc. I'm sure a scene much shorter then that could have sufficed, especially if it meant keeping two story arcs - it's rotten for me to say it, I know, but I'm not sure why "gut two whole arcs and four hours max of story content" was chosen instead of "clip down the beach scene down into just a fun and very short fanservice-bonus." I think Samu could have had his cake and ate it, too - the issue was that he went an extra mile on the beach episode because he felt obliged to make it as good as possible for those who wanted it, even though they probably would have been satisfied with just a short fanservice bit. It's just personal opinion granted, but I think it's more how he executed the fulfillment of his kickstarter goals rather then them being too unwieldy - I feel he meant well, but it bit him all the same. Yeah, that's what tends to be the reason DLC is so popular among fan and dev alike - it adds to the story, but you don't have to alter or restructure the whole narrative of the game to add it. Hell, we know he's willing to add work - [RE]Turn proved that. At the same time though, it's like he doesn't want to do that for the main story even though creating a spin-off to add extra context isn't going to change the fact that the main story is lacking; why not put all that effort into lengthening and improving the thing everybody said was the weak point? I don't want to be rude, but... maybe it ties back into the kickstarter thing? Maybe he thinks that if he goes and does what people demand over what he has next in line for the plot, it's gonna take away from his vision and make him sacrifice his own story just for appeasement? Yeah, you can argue he may or may not be guilty of mishandling the execution on said fulfillment of fan wants (regardless of if that's true or not), but at least it'd be more understandable why he'd be hesitant to rely 100% on fan-feedback. |
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Post by vaendryl on Jul 10, 2016 0:03:32 GMT -8
[...] This is one of the biggest, fcking problems with kickstarter. Simply idiotic promises made by the creators, who then cant do it because of budget! Dont promise what you cant do! The backers won and the game was gutted? Bend over backwards to make some backers happy and ruin the game again? ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS! It was HIS fault noone elses that situation arose in the first fcking place and then he blames the backers, the guys who gave him money! What the hell is wrong with this arrogant prick! YOU made the promise for fck sakes! The more i read about him the more respect i lose to him not only as a writter, but as a human being. [...] You're entitled to your opinions but making it personal means you're out of line. I believe Magpie has warned you before so consider this your last warning. Make your case without lowering yourself to this level, please. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 10, 2016 0:11:32 GMT -8
[...] This is one of the biggest, fcking problems with kickstarter. Simply idiotic promises made by the creators, who then cant do it because of budget! Dont promise what you cant do! The backers won and the game was gutted? Bend over backwards to make some backers happy and ruin the game again? ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS! It was HIS fault noone elses that situation arose in the first fcking place and then he blames the backers, the guys who gave him money! What the hell is wrong with this arrogant prick! YOU made the promise for fck sakes!The more i read about him the more respect i lose to him not only as a writter, but as a human being.[...] You're entitled to your opinions but making it personal means you're out of line. I believe Magpie has warned you before so consider this your last warning. Make your case without lowering yourself to this level, please. He may have worded it strongly, but what does that matter for his case - which was that he feels Samu made missteps in the execution of the kickstarter goals in relation to the game? Furthermore, as this exact quote illustrates, Dex is arguing this (overdone promises and a "promising beyond their capability to do" pattern) as a general fault of ALL KICKSTARTERS that is repetitive to the point of it feeling stupid to see, not just Sunrider's - so how exactly is that part of his statement "making it personal"? The only things he said that crossed the lines are the last few words of it all (which I've underlined), so shouldn't those be the only ones you needed to quote? The rest of it is blunt, yes, but it does it really go that far? |
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Post by Dextix on Jul 10, 2016 0:34:21 GMT -8
It is hard to critisize anything these days. Do i come off as harsh and have insulting words? Yes. Do they hurt anyone? No. I seriously doubt anyone creating the game is reading these forums anyways.
Seriously vaendryl, tell me you can read those lines written where the guy blames his own backers for what he is unable to do, and you dont feel anything. If this happened in any big budged kickastarter you could expect torches and pitchforks.
When someone makes a kickstarter, they have to make realistic goals, if they dont, its not the backers fault they want what you promised in kickstarter, its the creators fault for not knowing his capabilities. People abuse the kickstarter system in this way, or rather mislead their potential customers.
Also, vae, if you are really behind combat, then let me thank you, for everything you have done, especially in Lib Day, new units and combat improvements were great. Thank you for that. However i will offer some critisism in a thread i will write today, which will be more positive because it will be about combat and not the story.
Again, it is hard for me to talk while not speaking my mind, im a direct person, so if im out of line more, notify me and i will edit some things out.
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Post by Nemjen on Jul 10, 2016 1:35:47 GMT -8
Okay lets have a small timeout.
When one user makes it personal it sets a standard for others that they also can also be personal, this is not something we want to see occurring so that is why the line is been drawn. This is not trying to say 'you can't have this opinion because we do not agree' but rather 'we understand what you are saying but can you tone it down'. Also please don't argue with warnings, if you have genuine concerns then PM the moderator or admin that said it and we can discuss it otherwise just leave it be and focus on your next point.
Right:
Now I was late to the party and only started testing LD through version 11+ so I was only really interested in making it stable but I think what has happened is that as all feedback was like mine and focusing on the technical which meant it was perceived that people were happy with the product moving forward. With any project the further you are into the milestones the harder it becomes to change something (either due to time, resourcing or quality) which is why it is during these early days that questioning and suggesting are oh so important. I think that this has been a lesson for all of us (including staff) that we can improve both on the feedback mechanics as well as getting more involved with community questions and thought processes, something that will no doubt make Starnova and new entries to Sunrider better games overall now that we have more hands about.
Just going to touch on one more thing which was Sharr's point of 'with extra content, be it post-fixes or a "Remastered Edition"... maybe. but Samu - along with some of his stronger supporters like Vaen and Magpie - seem to argue against it on the belief that adding mid-game content would alter the narrative going forward...':
I am not against more mid game content (especially as I love VN fluff) but I don't think continuous patching is the answer to Sunrider, I would much rather just see the resources go into the development of the next game (allowing it to be a stronger entry) and then worse come to it further down the line talk about 'Remasters' or 'Additional Content' when we know the full main story of the author's image. I can't claim to know what Samu wants to do with the series but I will keep listening and offering my feedback where I can but at the end of the day they are his decisions to make.
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Post by Dextix on Jul 10, 2016 1:46:49 GMT -8
But that is a problem. The next game, due to the low quality of this one, will be in a bad position when it starts. Even now, there are still many plotholes in the game (Main, canon game). And all of the arcs in Lib Day, simply come out of nowhere instead of having build up. That is important as since they are not explained any further continuation of those arcs will be impeded heavily.
If Harry Potter the half-blood prince would have been filled with plotholes and low ammounts of content and explanations, the Deadly Hallows would have been a lot worse, since they are connected and one affects the other.
We dont need to know the full story to know that stories of these three games (Especially lib day) is simply lacking and will continue to be lacking if not fixed. Because these games are conected and not disjointed.
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Post by Nemjen on Jul 10, 2016 2:09:39 GMT -8
But you see that is what having an opinion means, a plot hole is only assessed against the wider story as it is essential to the wider outcome - we don't know what that outcome is yet. Your Harry Potter example also shows this, both are out and the traditional Harry Potter books are now concluded - you have the ability of hindsight to see how they link together from A -> B but also A -> G.
Liberation Day may not have been to everyone's expectations but I feel it is far from being un-redeemable and can still work in the wider picture as long as elements of Liberation Day are revisited during its narrative.
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Post by Dextix on Jul 10, 2016 2:23:30 GMT -8
I agree, we cant see the effects of Lib Day yet. However, plotholes already had effects on Lib Day itself. I could argue that the inclusion of Icaris arc as discussed before would have been really important in the fight against Legion. It would have had more weight. Cossete being captured and done nothing with, is an incredibly bad choise that affected this game and will affect the next one as she was invisible for the whole game
And Lib Day is not irredeemalbe, like i said many times, the skeleton and overall story is there, however the absence of every other important writing part is noticeable. It can still be used in a wider picture, but it will again, lessen the quality of the overall story.
And revising previous parts of stories is not good. You said it yourself, next games should be focused on. But because of the bad quality of thus one, the next game would have to fix it. Where instead the focus would be on continuation, the focus will be divided on continuation and somehow explaining the events of Lib Day well enough.
For example, again falling in love with Chigara. My Kayto would have never done that. And now in the next game this will have to be a consideration, because a death of such a character cannot be pushed away. Lib Day will impede the upcoming stories just because of the existance of that forced romance which shouldnt have even been there. It will always stick out as a sore thumb if you did not want to pursue Chigara in any way.
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Post by admiralcheese on Jul 10, 2016 2:29:54 GMT -8
I don't really have a dog in this fight but I would like to point out that Samu is the lead writer and Vaen handles the combat from what I've been able to glean. They're both active on the forums. So people creating these games actually do read this. I'm no stranger to anger over story content, but the more vitriolic the rhetoric the less likely it is to be received at all.
Now that all that is out of the way you should all really accept Claudekorion as your God Empress. For the betterment of all Waifu kind.
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Post by vaendryl on Jul 10, 2016 7:33:09 GMT -8
I see a lot of mention of 'Plot Holes' which seem to be the root cause of a lot of frustration over the story, but what plot holes exactly are there? I don't think they've actually been described in detail. As far as I can tell every event can be explained.
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Post by Nemjen on Jul 10, 2016 8:29:00 GMT -8
From how I am reading feedback posts they are not plot holes, just people wanting more details or something happened that was not to their liking/own image of the Sunrider universe. I mean lets give some of these a go: I could argue that the inclusion of Icaris arc as discussed before would have been really important in the fight against Legion.This is at best a missed opportunity if I am understanding the point correctly. Cosette being captured and done nothing with, is an incredibly bad choise that affected this game and will affect the next one as she was invisible for the whole gameThat is just a missed opportunity. Falling in love with Chigara. My Kayto would have never done that. And now in the next game this will have to be a consideration, because a death of such a character cannot be pushed away. Lib Day will impede the upcoming stories just because of the existance of that forced romance which shouldnt have even been there. It will always stick out as a sore thumb if you did not want to pursue Chigara in any way'My' is a preference, that and I do not get why people are hung up on this? If we do the A -> B approach at the end of Liberation Day the romance is dead as it were as for Kayto as he believes she has been killed off. It is not like he was castrated in the progress, he can still pursue relationships with other characters or if she does make another appearance he could have moved on as no doubt the events of 2.00 are going to slow things down a bit. And revising previous parts of stories is not good. You said it yourself, next games should be focused on. But because of the bad quality of thus one, the next game would have to fix it. Where instead the focus would be on continuation, the focus will be divided on continuation and somehow explaining the events of Lib Day well enough.I did not say revise, I said to revisit - to build on (not to fix as I can't see anything that is broken). A new Sunrider game that focuses on nothing but Liberation Day that would be revising, having a game that continues the story line but may reveal say additional conversations or events during Liberation Day that would be expanding. Now that all that is out of the way you should all really accept Claudekorion as your God Empress. For the betterment of all Waifu kind. She is not a Sith Lord (or whatever he was called in Knights of the Old Republic) Cheese.  That immediately removes several points from her application of 'God Empress' title. |
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Post by Dextix on Jul 10, 2016 9:35:05 GMT -8
I see a lot of mention of 'Plot Holes' which seem to be the root cause of a lot of frustration over the story, but what plot holes exactly are there? I don't think they've actually been described in detail. As far as I can tell every event can be explained. Plot holes are not the main cause, the lack of content is. However plot holes do exist, mostly in the ending. Plot hole number 1: Kayto is an idiot. This goes against the established universe already. Kayto was a young an inexperienced captain at the start. But he was never stupid, he was tactical and knew how to think. And considering the choises you can make he can also become less emotional. Yet in Lib Day he becomes an idiot that does not see any threats and trusts everyone unconditionally even with the facts presenting otherwise (Chigara). His romance also doesnt make any sense if you pursued anyone else (Like i did) in previous two games. Plot hole number 2: Chigara manages to smuggle 2 loaded droids and carry a pistol into a meeting of TWO war faction leaders! That is physically imppossible. The security would have been huge. There is no way Chigara can smuggle those droids in unless she carries them in her arse or some of those DBZ insta-pellets. Not to mention that she shouldnt even have a gun. She is a pilot not a soldier, her having a gun would instantly be detected, especially by someone like Kayto who was close to her the whole time. And no i dont believe that it would be concealed since im pretty sure everyone would be checked before such an occasion. Plot hole number 3: Kryska actually turns on kayto without having a good enough reason. Basically someone from high above ordered her to do so. However, how would someone from above know the situation and how would any chain of command work with general dead but with no other knowledge? The chain command should be in dissaray, and why would they want to off Kayto. And why would Kryska want to do that despite knowing that something is definetly wrong! She is dutyfull, but again, not a zealous idiot who will only follow orders. Plot hole number 4: Somehow, sunrider manages to get to the enemy cokmand ship in one piece without expoding. The COMMAND SHIP. The main backbone of the fleet! The one which should be protected the most! Now this is where even plot holes are contradicting each other. If according to plot hole 3 the chain of command is clear, ships already would be in formation and would defend the command ship already as it is the VIP target. But if they dont have anything there then it means that chain command is in chaos, thus plot hole number 3 arises. So basically, choose your plothole. Plot hole number 5: The alliance copies the big bomb. I know that they could reverse engineer it, but not that fast! Even with all of their capabilities they could not reverse engineer something created by the alphas so fast. Alpha technology is on another level, they would not be able to recreate and weaponize it so soon Plot hole number 6: The crazy Asaga. We saw only one scene with the sharr or whatever. Yet she INSTANTLY distrusts her best friend and comrade in her whole life. Like instantly, there was almost no hesitation. And dont bullshit me about jealoucy becase asaga would want Chigara to be happy, they are best friends for a reason. So her whole yandere moment doesnt make any sense. The ending is chuck full of "huh" and "wtf" moments that make no sense. And they are mainly there because there is so little explanation. So little nuance or thought in there. Its a complete clusterfck. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Now to maggie, yea, i overdid it with the first two points, they are not exactly plotholes, but they are massive missed opportunities that could have helped the story development and the continuing stories. However, chigara is indeed a massive plothole. This VN has choises that shape "our" Kayto. We have different ones when we make different choises. This game is especially focused on romances and you choosing your waifu. Its not a preference, its the character we create. If i did not pursue Chigara in the last two games, it makes no sense that i would do now. My Kayto was going back with Ava, in every conversation possible. He would not go with Chigara, the same is with other people who chose other waifus. We are given a choise how to shape our Kayto. If the writter wants to strip away that choise why even put it there in the first place? The plot could have operated and even remained the same without forced chigara romance. In the end it doesnt make sense. As Kayto has to be a total idiot (Which he isnt) and has to betray anyone he is pursuing (Which he wouldnt). And your point in expanding still falls into a problem. The next game still has to go back to Lib Day, instead of going further into the stories that are established it has to go back to explain something in Lib Day, thus it is impeded by Liberation Day. From how i see it, revision is the best choise, it will not cost too many resources and can be done easily in half a year with all 3 games together. Because its a simple story expansion. With it all of the games that are now just above average or average in case of Lib Day, they would become great. Then the sequels would have a strong and hard foundation to go on with well established characters, motivations and actions. It is actually quite strange how little do we know about all of our dcrew members despite having 3 games with them already. I gathered more information about characters from mass effect in the first game! And thats an RPG. This is a VN! |
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Post by vaendryl on Jul 10, 2016 10:38:01 GMT -8
Plot holes are not the main cause, the lack of content is. However plot holes do exist, mostly in the ending. Plot hole number 1: Kayto is an idiot. This goes against the established universe already. Kayto was a young an inexperienced captain at the start. But he was never stupid, he was tactical and knew how to think. And considering the choises you can make he can also become less emotional. Yet in Lib Day he becomes an idiot that does not see any threats and trusts everyone unconditionally even with the facts presenting otherwise (Chigara). His romance also doesnt make any sense if you pursued anyone else (Like i did) in previous two games. Kayto was slipping deeper into emotional instability and Chigara has been working her magic for a long time now and ends up compromising Kayto's ability to make rational judgement. that's a characterization inconsistency at most, not a plot hole. Plot hole number 2: Chigara manages to smuggle 2 loaded droids and carry a pistol into a meeting of TWO war faction leaders! That is physically imppossible. The security would have been huge. There is no way Chigara can smuggle those droids in unless she carries them in her arse or some of those DBZ insta-pellets. Not to mention that she shouldnt even have a gun. She is a pilot not a soldier, her having a gun would instantly be detected, especially by someone like Kayto who was close to her the whole time. And no i dont believe that it would be concealed since im pretty sure everyone would be checked before such an occasion. of course she didn't smuggle 2 massive droids in. she must have somehow hijacked security droids that were already supposed to be there. as to where she got the gun, she could have stolen it while there, or it could've been planted inside beforehand. she's a smart girl, she's gotten away with weirder things. Plot hole number 3: Kryska actually turns on kayto without having a good enough reason. Basically someone from high above ordered her to do so. However, how would someone from above know the situation and how would any chain of command work with general dead but with no other knowledge? The chain command should be in dissaray, and why would they want to off Kayto. And why would Kryska want to do that despite knowing that something is definetly wrong! She is dutyfull, but again, not a zealous idiot who will only follow orders. Kryska didn't turn on Kayto, she has always been loyal to the Alliance first and foremost and never made it a secret. Having her superiors order the arrest of Kayto isn't strange when his girlfriend just fucked shit up as much as she did. having the chain of command collapse the instant something goes wrong doesn't make much sense. any military spends a lot of time making sure it doesn't no matter what happens, and there surely were plenty of skilled officers around not getting shot to pieces to give such an order. and she did have doubts that something was wrong - she didn't actually end up stopping Shields, did she? Plot hole number 4: Somehow, sunrider manages to get to the enemy cokmand ship in one piece without expoding. The COMMAND SHIP. The main backbone of the fleet! The one which should be protected the most! Now this is where even plot holes are contradicting each other. If according to plot hole 3 the chain of command is clear, ships already would be in formation and would defend the command ship already as it is the VIP target. But if they dont have anything there then it means that chain command is in chaos, thus plot hole number 3 arises. So basically, choose your plothole. it really doesn't take much for pretty much any officer to shout 'arrest that man!', but to command an entire fleet is quite a different thing. as to how the sunrider managed to reach the command ship, I'm not sure. she certainly was under a lot of fire and effectively did get sunk, it just seemed to keep going on nothing but inertia. as to why she didn't explode, it's possible the main power core was shut down, ejected or otherwise didn't blow up as it's likely to do when damaged. all that was required was to steer the Sunrider in the right direction and main power was no longer needed. I don't quite remember right now, but if the PACT and Alliance fleet came to blows over Cera in the confusion it's also likely that the Alliance couldn't focus on just the Sunrider. Maybe many ships didn't even realize what it was doing or heading for. Plot hole number 5: The alliance copies the big bomb. I know that they could reverse engineer it, but not that fast! Even with all of their capabilities they could not reverse engineer something created by the alphas so fast. Alpha technology is on another level, they would not be able to recreate and weaponize it so soon I don't think the game is ever really that clear about how much time passes in between the end of MoA and the later events of LibDay. it's known she spends a lot of time in drydock getting repairs and there could well minor events in between that were not expanded upon. skirmishes that didn't actually get to be in-game battles because they weren't a challenge. In addition, they only made the warhead - the bare essentials. who knows how long something like that would have to take to build with their level of tech and industrial capacity as long as they have the basic designs. Plot hole number 6: The crazy Asaga. We saw only one scene with the sharr or whatever. Yet she INSTANTLY distrusts her best friend and comrade in her whole life. Like instantly, there was almost no hesitation. And dont bullshit me about jealoucy becase asaga would want Chigara to be happy, they are best friends for a reason. So her whole yandere moment doesnt make any sense. There certainly were multiple scenes where it was made clear that awakening had an effect on her emotional stability, in addition to the Sharr having a distinct personality of its own. it's also explained later that Asaga could feel the psychic connection between Chigara and the other prototypes (subconcously if nothing else) so she had no reason for doubt. Also, even though she and Chigara had been friends for a while, she loves the captain and greatly feared something happening to him. that fear was much stronger than any loyalty she had built up for her friend. I'm also no convinced she really wanted to kill Chigara - just disable her. if she thought at all. The ending is chuck full of "huh" and "wtf" moments that make no sense. And they are mainly there because there is so little explanation. So little nuance or thought in there. Its a complete clusterfck. Our opinions clearly differ. |
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Post by Dextix on Jul 10, 2016 11:09:15 GMT -8
1)No, Kayto was not. He was indeed in not a good situation before blowing up Legion, but after blowing up Legion he is in a much better situation as he gets closure. And no, chigara was not working her magic. Again, there was no indication of romatic interest from kayto before Lib Day, eveywhere they were together it was brother/sister situation.
This again, doesnt make sense if you pursue another girls. Since then he has feelings for them.
If we were shown that Kayto still has massive problems after Legion destruction and if we would have been shown that he actually had feelings for her before Lib Day then it would have made sense, but such episodes were not in the story
2) Then explain how! Why and when! If you dont explain such things its a plothole! If she hacks something, then show it! If she carries in something, show it, subtly! Or give some hints!
Also, what the hell were droids doing on the ceiling and why did we see only tow of them and not everywhere else? Why did we not even know of their existance? And if they are hacked wouldnt it be detected beforehand? And again, her having a gun is not explained in any way.
Thats the problem again. Its not explained, there are no details. That is why they are plotholes. Because all we can do is to speculate instead of having a clear picture.
3) No, it is strange, since he had nothing to do with it and she also wanted to KILL HIM. And no, general is dead, the chain of command does collapse quickly and then gets rebuilt after the chaos. A simmilar situation occurs in mass effect, you go to extract a primarch, he is dead, but since there is intense fighting the chain of command is not known, after that it is made clear, but the other primarch doesnt know that. Why, because he didnt know about the death and other deaths in the first place.
When there is such chaos, chain of command will fall apart, and be rebuild only after some time. The only skilled officers alive would be on the fleet in their ships, with no real knowledge of the real situation as everything is in chaos. And yes, Kryska doesnt stop Shields, but only because Icari intervenes. Without her she would have followed any order, which is again stupid because she despite being dutifull is not an idiot or a zealous person who would do everything they are told to.
4) Yes, it actually does, again chain of command, the highest ranking officers wwould have to give that order, that is given if someone actuallly has any idea what is really happening. And then the leet comes into play.
Sunrider should have been vaporized, it is an entire fleet, not a battlegroup, a fleet. We have seen what kind of damage alliance ships can do, especially with their yamato canons, thats not to say the presence of riders, especially artilery riders such as kryskas.
Even while being distraccted by Pact forces in any military formation the main ship would be protected from any attack. If we ignore the suspencion of disbelief in the TBS bits, Sunrider would be capable to fully take on one battleship, in a fleet that number multiplies by a lot. Sunrider would have blown up or been vaporized long before it even got halfway to the main ship.
3/4) This is also about the chain of command. EXPLAIN IT IN THE VN! Again, there is a problem of content. YOu could have went for a shot to both PACT and Alliance fleets, show confusion, some reaction off the offficers of the fleets, explaining what is going on, at the same time you could setablish their actions, chain of command and what they actually know about in the chaos.
Again, it is a limitation by lack of content.
5) Then explain it clearly, explain what minor events are happening, just how much time it took to repair the ship.
And no, making a warhead is not easy either. Its like me taking a computer disasembling it, taking motherboard out and then somehow copying. Yea, it is a smaller thing and yes it is less complicated, doesnt mean that i will easily replicate or even understand it.
In real life, even with all of the knowledge from spying Soviets took a long time to get their atom bombs even ready for testing.
6) There were scenes showing her psychozis, not explaining why it happens. It happens because of the sharr and awakening stuff, that is established in 2 short scenes. That is not enough. Even with her getting that strange connection with Chigara she didnt exactly know what that was, and even with her love of the captain, she also loves Chigara. I wouldnt say that fear would instantly negate all those years of sisterhood. And no, she wanted Chigara dead.
And yes, our opinion differ, however, that is the main problem. These are important things in the game, yet we have to speculate about them instead of knowing them. You can keep some things a mistery, but not all of these important points. They have to be porperly explained and expanded upon. If plot has to be so speculated it just shows how many problems it has.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 10, 2016 11:48:37 GMT -8
Okay lets have a small timeout. When one user makes it personal it sets a standard for others that they also can also be personal, this is not something we want to see occurring so that is why the line is been drawn. This is not trying to say 'you can't have this opinion because we do not agree' but rather 'we understand what you are saying but can you tone it down'. Also please don't argue with warnings, if you have genuine concerns then PM the moderator or admin that said it and we can discuss it otherwise just leave it be and focus on your next point. Right: Now I was late to the party and only started testing LD through version 11+ so I was only really interested in making it stable but I think what has happened is that as all feedback was like mine and focusing on the technical which meant it was perceived that people were happy with the product moving forward. With any project the further you are into the milestones the harder it becomes to change something (either due to time, resourcing or quality) which is why it is during these early days that questioning and suggesting are oh so important. I think that this has been a lesson for all of us (including staff) that we can improve both on the feedback mechanics as well as getting more involved with community questions and thought processes, something that will no doubt make Starnova and new entries to Sunrider better games overall now that we have more hands about. Just going to touch on one more thing which was Sharr's point of 'with extra content, be it post-fixes or a "Remastered Edition"... maybe. but Samu - along with some of his stronger supporters like Vaen and Magpie - seem to argue against it on the belief that adding mid-game content would alter the narrative going forward...': I am not against more mid game content (especially as I love VN fluff) but I don't think continuous patching is the answer to Sunrider, I would much rather just see the resources go into the development of the next game (allowing it to be a stronger entry) and then worse come to it further down the line talk about 'Remasters' or 'Additional Content' when we know the full main story of the author's image. I can't claim to know what Samu wants to do with the series but I will keep listening and offering my feedback where I can but at the end of the day they are his decisions to make. This again, Magpie? Really, I think it doesn't really matter how they say it or even if it's personal - what matters is weather or not what they're saying has any truth to it. Judging it on anything else is bias. Yeah, politeness is nice and all, but that in and of itself doesn't solve debates. With the kickstarter thing, none of that affects the fact that Samu could have simply done it differently instead of needing to scrap stuff - there's a difference between including a milestone and being so inclusive of it that you have to cut stuff out. Milestones like that feel like they'd be better off as easter-eggs or short bonuses rather then something you devote more effort to then your story. Besides, how does this fit into your "let's never fully judge anything till it's complete" belief you keep toting (including in the very next sentence)? Can't have it both ways, dude - either they have a say in it or they don't till the series is done; which is it? And once again - if every single effort towards that game is directed to everything EXCEPT fixing what people had issue with, I don't see why it shouldn't be noted. Also, the fact that [RE]Turn itself even exists is proof that the effort and writing was there - it just wasn't applied to the actual source of the problem; the main story. It's not 'continuous patching' I'm after - it's ONE SINGLE PATCH that actually addresses the main story problems without having to have the next game's narrative potentially compromised to solve it instead via backtracks or the like. Plus, again, you have to keep in mind someone being the story's author and them always making the right decisions are two different things. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 10, 2016 12:13:33 GMT -8
From how I am reading feedback posts they are not plot holes, just people wanting more details or something happened that was not to their liking/own image of the Sunrider universe. I mean lets give some of these a go: I could argue that the inclusion of Icaris arc as discussed before would have been really important in the fight against Legion.This is at best a missed opportunity if I am understanding the point correctly. Cosette being captured and done nothing with, is an incredibly bad choise that affected this game and will affect the next one as she was invisible for the whole gameThat is just a missed opportunity. Falling in love with Chigara. My Kayto would have never done that. And now in the next game this will have to be a consideration, because a death of such a character cannot be pushed away. Lib Day will impede the upcoming stories just because of the existance of that forced romance which shouldnt have even been there. It will always stick out as a sore thumb if you did not want to pursue Chigara in any way'My' is a preference, that and I do not get why people are hung up on this? If we do the A -> B approach at the end of Liberation Day the romance is dead as it were as for Kayto as he believes she has been killed off. It is not like he was castrated in the progress, he can still pursue relationships with other characters or if she does make another appearance he could have moved on as no doubt the events of 2.00 are going to slow things down a bit. And revising previous parts of stories is not good. You said it yourself, next games should be focused on. But because of the bad quality of thus one, the next game would have to fix it. Where instead the focus would be on continuation, the focus will be divided on continuation and somehow explaining the events of Lib Day well enough.I did not say revise, I said to revisit - to build on (not to fix as I can't see anything that is broken). A new Sunrider game that focuses on nothing but Liberation Day that would be revising, having a game that continues the story line but may reveal say additional conversations or events during Liberation Day that would be expanding. Now that all that is out of the way you should all really accept Claudekorion as your God Empress. For the betterment of all Waifu kind. She is not a Sith Lord (or whatever he was called in Knights of the Old Republic) Cheese. That immediately removes several points from her application of 'God Empress' title. 1. His point was that it was a missed opportunity because of what he feels was a bad development move - which was putting so much time and so many resources into the beach episode that it affected how much more story there'd be. Also that the revenge tale Icari's arc would have centered on would have been a good precursor to Kayto's own dilemma with the Legion and have broken down Icari's walls for her to be as friendly and open to Kryska as she was by LibDay. 2. All the talk about Cosette in MoA and all the information she could have been grilled for in LibDay and all the things she could have known - pirate black markets, hidden trade routes to bypass PACT fleets, ect - and Kayto doesn't even talk with her so much as once? Every other person they've taken prisoner (namely Icari and Lynn), they at least questioned ONCE, so just up and forgetting about her feels out-of-character for just about everyone on the ship, especially given the grudges that Ava, Asaga, Kryska, Icari and even Kayto must have with her. 3. It's because of how poorly the Chigara romance was executed - the jump-in point you used was a scene where Chigara is simply returning the favor of being an emotional support for Kayto the way he has been for everyone else; a scene that is more platonic then it is actively romantic. We never saw any scene that actually cemented a starting point for the romance, and the pace was taken too far and too fast without any real focus on what Kayto or Chigara's mindsets were or why the felt the need to rush things, so - shock of all shocks - it felt rushed and they felt severely out of character for the both of them. Also - no. No, Kayto doesn't. In V2.00, he rather clearly remarks that he thinks Chigara must have saved him by taking Lynn over - he even tells the rest of the crew he thinks Chigara, at least as far as her mind, isn't dead. And your take on it, Magpie; that's like saying someone shouldn't complain about being shot just because they survived it - it doesn't gel. How many times must we say that the fact the romance got ended DOES NOT IN ANY WAY impact that the romance itself was poorly handled and poorly portrayed? How many times must we say that the way it even happened was so jarring and bad that it actually makes it an even bigger plot-hole that any of the girls would be so eager to get in a relationship, to say nothing of the fact that the average man wouldn't want to even go near another girl for a long time - it would be HARDER to believe he could get into another relationship, or that, if he did, it's be as contrived and poorly done as this one was. When it comes to romances, you want them to feel natural - the WORST thing you can do is force it for plot reasons because that is so much harder to pull off, especially if you're rushing things. Even [RE]Turn had to have story stuff detracted from to have Kayto explain doubts about his relationship - and even then it didn't fix anything because it was Kayto speaking from past-tense rather then having those doubts in the present. There just wasn't enough to the romance to justify Kayto getting involved to that degree - or at least nothing that was ever shown. 4. The issue with that though is that, if [RE]Turn is any indication, Samu DOESN'T want to do anything that actually does that for the main story. [RE]Turn could have done a better job being some kind of side-story that explains each character's feelings during it - again, more effort was put into elsworld ideas then toward something that properly dealt with the criticisms. And the point of Dex's argument is that, if you have to devote an ENTIRE GAME towards fixing the narrative of the last one instead of just doing it in the last one itself, how exactly is that 'going forward' when the past entry is still dictating what you have to do to fix it? And look back at this, Magpie - do you not see the issue here with just how many of these big things you're confessing are missed opportunities, to say nothing of how you call them that as if that's any better? |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 10, 2016 13:20:25 GMT -8
Yes it is a plot-hole because we DO NOT SEE Chigara "working her magic", nor did we see anything she did that could be taken beyond the level of being brother-and-sister or close friends. Moreover, if [RE]Turn is any indication, it WASN'T that Chigara was "working her magic" at all to begin with - it was that Kayto himself was just too compromised to give second thought to someone giving him comfort as 'Kayto Shields' instead of 'the Captain', since Chigara's status as a sleeper-agent meant she didn't know she was a Prototype and thus was innocent of actual duplicity on her part; her only real crime/involvement was being on the ship. It was all on Kayto - Chigara's hardly a criminal because, according to Kayto himself when slugging his past self, ANY girl pretty much would have done. Hell, [RE]Turn compounds that when he pretty much gets with another girl to forget about Chigara.
And a characterizing inconsistency IS a plot hole, Vaen, because it's a case in which a character is going against how they've been portrayed up to this point with no real indication showing why or how. The absence of that knowledge or interaction makes any inconsistent characterizing that comes of it a plot hole.
His point is that it's that it's not even a situation where you can call it a "Chekov's Gun" - this is the first time we even knew assault drones of that class and destructive power even existed until Chigara unleashed them. Maybe if there's been a scene were we knew before hand that security drones like that existed before seeing them here, it would have been more understandable to see them and easier to connect-the-dots as to Chigara turning them against everyone, but as is it comes straight out of left-field and most people end up assuming she brought the damn things with her.
And in actuality, hacking would be the only explanation - none of the others fit since they're more hassle then just hijacking present drones or Alice in Chigara's body didn't have the time to do it between the end of the battle and the Massacre with Kayto around; being smart doesn't mean anything if you just don't have the opportunity to do anything with it. But again, see above for why most people don't instantly think 'she hacked security' - it looks a plot-hole unless you read between the lines way more then you should have to for a scene as straightforward as this.
Vaen, the entire concept that she is more loyal to the Alliance then Kayto DOES still make it betrayal if she's picking a side between the two. If you have obligations to a side and you forsake them for ones to another side, that is betrayal of whoever you turned against - degree or length of commitment is semantical best and inconsequential at worst to that. Moreover, if Kryska's actions are any indication, she WASN'T going to arrest Kayto - she was going to straight-up kill him, no questions asked, in spite of everything they went though; no benefit of a doubt or even asking Kayto if what the Alliance Brass (or what's left of it) said about him was true or not, if only to hear his own words on the matter for some form of personal closure.
The issue is that Gray pretty much WAS the Alliance military at this point - we've not seen anyone else who knows what the hell's going on or what to do aside from him. Pretty much the entire chain of command was done in at once - do you really think any command system, no matter how efficient or organized, is going to recover THAT quickly, let alone be able to make competent command decisions under the circumstances they were in at Cera even if they did manage to get some form of command chain back up? And the only reason Kryska stopped with Kayto was because SHE GOT STOPPED FIRST, by Icari and her bomb, and it wasn't till she was on the ground and pretty much outnumbered (Kayto and Ava likely had arms to draw at this point to, regardless of whether or not they'd actually shoot), so it's not like there was any way she could complete her mission anyway. Her not wanting to do it in the first place was just the final blow.
That's the thing, though - they DON'T NEED TO; at this point they just need to protect the flagship until it fire the Paradox Core Warhead and all their problems will be gone anyway (it's not like they wouldn't have scapegoated and publicly executed Kayto for what happened either way, after all). Plus, your theory kinda works against you - if the Sunrider's just free-floating towards the flagship instead of charging full power at it, it's MORE likely the Alliance is going to know what's happening. And since that ship holds the key to their victory over both PACT and the Sunrider, as well as quite possibly being where whatever remnants of the local command chain are holed up, you'd think defending both your insta-win weapon and your last few commanding officers would take precedence in a situation like that. You'd want a good chunk of your ships guarding it either way - hell, it would make more sense for the Alliance fleet to just turtle up and not bother fighting PACT as opposed to getting as far away from the assumedly-doomed Cera as possible.
All in all, couple that with the issues they had even driving the ship with Chigara gone and it makes it very hard to believe the Sunrider could have lasted long enough to make it to the Alliance flagship - or at least make it in an intact-enough state for it to ram the ship and actually sink it.
Actually, it is made pretty clear. The ship spent a month in drydock according to Kayto's interactions with Chigara and the crew between the continuation of the Helion Battle and the attack in the ion storm. We can then assume only a week or two for the side-missions and a few days for Cera itself. That doesn't seem like enough time to even copy a device that complex, let alone build it and ensure it'll even work and be confident enough in it's power to consider it a working deterrent. Moreover, that's another big issue - plot holes come from a lack of information or corresponding in-game events, so if you're skipping over whole events like that it's going to have consequences. Hell, the biggest issue in the Chigara romance is the absolute lack of proper build-up and true romantic-springboard moments it has to make it believable - forget even the battles; there were story-elements that'd could have been filled in that span instead.
Back to the point though - yeah, six or seven weeks most likely from what I can figure. Eight at the most. Not really enough time to do anything with just blueprints, especially considering the level of intelligence the Prototypes and the people of Diode who made the thing had - they would have needed to been actually taking parts off the Paradox Core itself and pouring it all into just making one single warhead and no others, which would be resource mismanagement at best if that's what the only such components of their kind in the galaxy were used all at once for. There is not enough explained on this, so it feels like a plot-hole - the only way to dispel a plot-hole is pointing out actual, factual things in the narrative where it definitely did or didn't happen, and I'm not seeing a whole lot of that.
WHERE? There was only ever one scene that even remotely hinted to it, and it pointed to it being the result of Asaga having an outright inherent split personality as opposed to the Awakenings - it pointed to the Sharr influencing her through the Awakenings, not the other way around. Hell, it wasn't even until [RE]Turn that we learned that Asaga going through the Awakenings too rapidly without time to adjust was eroding her sanity as opposed to her keeping a separate entity in her head in check. It would make sense if we'd had Sola narrating that kind of thing or giving more direct forewarnings to Asaga that she just ignored, but what we got just wasn't enough.
The thing is, though, that there's a difference between distrusting someone that close because of jealousy and wanting to outright cripple them. And Asaga knew Chigara far longer then she ever knew Kayto, yet there wasn't even the benefit of a doubt or a moment's hesitation. That's not a matter of loyalty - that's an outright lack of common sense or empathy or any sort of evidence that they were best friends to begin with. That's not even talking about how Chigara reacted so bitterly, showing a sudden distrust and jadedness of Asaga that we never even saw any hint to - we didn't see any trace of Chigara being scared of Asaga over how ruthless the latter was becoming up to this point. It wasn't portrayed as a rending of a friendship - it was portrayed as just two comrades disliking each-other. It was not... for lack of a better word, personal or personable enough for the situation.
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Post by Nemjen on Jul 10, 2016 13:52:55 GMT -8
I'm not really sure why giving some missed opportunities is a confession. - I don't recall ever saying that it was flawless, I've continuously said I enjoyed it and managed to get a good number of hours out of it. I will admit I forgot about the Chigara remarks in 2.00 - whoops. - Regardless my point stands, Kayto's affection with Chigara grew from his ability to confide in her and her ability to comfort his insecurities. A quote I read a while back although off the top of my head I cannot remember where is that we look for partners who hold opposite personalities to ourselves in order to balance our own, romance can be built quite easily on a concept of insecurity or this idea of completing oneself something that I can see in this relationship in particular. It may be your opinion that it was poorly portrayed but that isn't a plot hole (I am actually curious if you know the definition at this stage considering how you are throwing it around), if anything it is a hurdle of characterisation that is hard to really put a finger on until we see the type of person Kayto becomes following the events of Liberation Day. Really, I think it doesn't really matter how they say it or even if it's personal - what matters is weather or not what they're saying has any truth to it. Judging it on anything else is bias. Yeah, politeness is nice and all, but that in and of itself doesn't solve debates. You can really go off on one aye? I will say it again one last time ' please don't argue with warnings, if you have genuine concerns then PM the moderator or admin that said it and we can discuss it otherwise just leave it be and focus on your next point.' It is not a matter of politeness, it is an intervention where I am saying 'we are not doing this' there is no discussion. Besides, how does this fit into your "let's never fully judge anything till it's complete" belief you keep toting (including in the very next sentence)? Can't have it both ways, dude - either they have a say in it or they don't till the series is done; which is it? Yes I can? I can judge Liberation Day as an entry (A -> B) / (as shown in my personal musings) but I can't judge the whole series (A -> G) as it is still ongoing. I wouldn't feel comfortable to pass a judgement on the series until I have read everything as I would be feeding back on the principle that nothing would change from that point, this is not the case as there is at least one more Sunrider arc to be delivered. And once again - if every single effort towards that game is directed to everything EXCEPT fixing what people had issue with, I don't see why it shouldn't be noted. Also, the fact that [RE]Turn itself even exists is proof that the effort and writing was there - it just wasn't applied to the actual source of the problem; the main story. It's not 'continuous patching' I'm after - it's ONE SINGLE PATCH that actually addresses the main story problems without having to have the next game's narrative potentially compromised to solve it instead via backtracks or the like. Plus, again, you have to keep in mind someone being the story's author and them always making the right decisions are two different things. I think you are missing the point there, you say one patch but what happens if there is another element you or another user doesn't like? Somehow I don't see you sitting back and going 'eh, it is better' I see you going 'you patched it once, then you can do it again'. With [Re]Turn the line was drawn that there would be no more new main arc content dropped into the Liberation Day title (well besides skirmish but that will play into combat) - rather than fighting the system in that regard you are better off directing the energy forward into the future as you are clawing at a losing battle. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 10, 2016 15:51:00 GMT -8
I'm not really sure why giving some missed opportunities is a confession. - I don't recall ever saying that it was flawless, I've continuously said I enjoyed it and managed to get a good number of hours out of it. I will admit I forgot about the Chigara remarks in 2.00 - whoops. - Regardless my point stands, Kayto's affection with Chigara grew from his ability to confide in her and her ability to comfort his insecurities. A quote I read a while back although off the top of my head I cannot remember where is that we look for partners who hold opposite personalities to ourselves in order to balance our own, romance can be built quite easily on a concept of insecurity or this idea of completing oneself something that I can see in this relationship in particular. It may be your opinion that it was poorly portrayed but that isn't a plot hole (I am actually curious if you know the definition at this stage considering how you are throwing it around), if anything it is a hurdle of characterisation that is hard to really put a finger on until we see the type of person Kayto becomes following the events of Liberation Day. Because you're admitting there was a LOT the series missed - and that, with things that big, it was detrimental to the story for it to get passed over like that. You're acting like all these being misses opportunities somehow makes that better - it doesn't. You're also acting like Dex doesn't have any right to be pissed about those flaws simply because nothing's flawless - that's an excuse because it doesn't overwrite the fact that "not flawless" doesn't equate to "the flaws it has aren't serious." And no, I feel your point really doesn't still stand - because the way the romance happened was far too fast paced and, ironically, too flawless; too picturesque for the circumstances it formed under. Being able to confide in someone doesn't automatically equate to a romance and sex anymore then it did for THE REST OF THE CREW - there isn't one person among that cast, not even the regulation-bound Ava, who would have done anything less. And most, if not all of the girls ALSO falls under the distinction of being a distinct opposite to Kayto - Claude is impish and horny, Asaga is hyper and up-front, Ava is stern and uncompromising, Sola is stoic and withdrawn, Kryska is diligent and unhesitant and Icari is sardonic and dishonest. The fact of the matter is that you can take any two people in the world and often find as many similarities between them as opposites - and compared to the rest of the crew, this "opposite personalities = balance" belief doesn't strike truer for Kayto and Chigara then it would with Kayto and any other girl. Finally - and this is the biggest thing, so it'll be a long one - there's the fact that even though romances can be built on such insecurities, it's not going to be to the point you don't question anything at all. For example; Kira Yamato and Flay Allistar from Mobile Suit Gundam:SEED - in that, we have a clear-cut example of the girl manipulating the guy for her own ends, and he falls for it hook-line-and-sinker without ever once realizing (not even long after things ended) that she was just using him. He does so as a source of emotional comfort to give himself some ground to stand on, but it's precisely because that's his only reason for it that he has moments of uncertainty in what he's doing, and the fact it's happening so fast is why he pulls himself back and doesn't just jump to things like marriage or the like. The fact is that relationships coming together that quickly automatically entails that one stops and thinks at least ONCE - and with ones quick enough to be called "shotgun weddings", there is at least at some point a moment where they have some self-reflection with each-other to CONFIRM this is what they want. We were never shown anything that told us this or shown any form of introspection between the two to make it seem even remotely real - it's all either pure conjecture or theories but you simply have NO PROOF, and that makes it a plot hole. Kayto saying he just wanted someone to confide in is mitigated by the fact that literally anyone and everyone else he served with could have been that person and would have listened - nothing about that scene with Chigara painted her as being someone who could do this better then anyone else; there was nothing that ever really answered the question of "why her?" What makes this a plot-hole is that we didn't see Chigara do anything that Kayto wouldn't or couldn't have expected from someone close to him as opposed to something that would breed actual love - those kind of scenes are MISSING OUTRIGHT, so it feels like one big plot hole that their romance grew to the level it did (marriage, pets, kids, living together after just a week or so past the first damn kiss) and makes it feel like it was just forced for shock-value. Hell, even just removing the marriage and kids thing, or making it so that Chigara was just joking or being wistful as opposed to being played so straight-laced, would have made it more believable. It is a logical inconsistency in the characterization of Kayto as a whole and the romance itself is pushed so fast that it in and of itself is inconsistent with how intense it is - which, as you know, such illogical elements in a narrative (things that just do not make sense and don't fit in with/are not supported by the plot or logic) are the definition of a plot hole. So again, no - it is a plot hole, and I'm not so sure your disagreeing on it has anything to do with how I portrayed it. And, once again, saying "let's wait till after LibDay" is an excuse - Kayto's character in LibDay is judicable based simply off of who he is in the past games, and his character regardless of Prince or Moralist mentality has always been quite clear; a good-natured, ernest, sociable, slightly-awkward, inexperienced young man. We have four games (five if you count [RE]Turn as a separate spin-off) detailing this, so I don't see how you could possibly claim there's not enough to know what kind of person he is. I really don't think so. A series is a set of stand-alone games - that in and of itself means they have to be able to stand on their own merits in order to both continue and/or improve on what came before and provide the set-up for what comes next, and in turn the current game sets the tone for what the dev currently thinks is acceptable. You most certainly CAN judge the whole series based on what it's next iteration has to work off of and overcome - and the tone LibDay set easily makes one anxious about just how many narrative issues you're going to have to address and that what happened there is going to just keep happening. Being a work in progress doesn't equate to it not being judicable - hell, that's actually the BEST time to judge something like a game series for a dev, because the feedback lets them know what to focus on and what not to. if that's YOUR principle, fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and stamp out anyone else's desire or attempt to do so - especially given the widespread dissatisfaction LibDay received and how [RE]Turn (a spin-off) was prioritized over fixing the main story - because giving that feedback is half the reason a community fourm even exists to begin with. No, I don't think I'm the one missing the point here - rather, you've spiraled away from it. I am not talking about fixing every little issue that some random person finds - I am talking about correcting the ONE BIG THING that was widely panned by multiple people to be the main problem with the game. Ergo - I think you're argument's a strawman, because anyone who even looked at the Steam reviews would know that if so many people say the story lacks like that, then it bears looking into. It's about fixing the thing that got the most complaints, NOT about fixing everything every time some person complains about this or that - that is completely irrelevant to the point I was making. My Point is that Samu is putting effort towards everything EXCEPT the thing people complained about - it's that he put all that work into making a spin-off instead of just making a new arc to add onto the main game, which would probably have been less intensive a project then a multi-end spin-off would have been. When you say "With [Re]Turn the line was drawn that there would be no more new main arc content dropped into the Liberation Day title" - that just feels like it's about MAKING SOME PETTY POINT (for yourself as well since IDK if that's even your call, dude) as opposed to actually fixing anything. If there's a flaw in said system and multiple people noted it, I once again repeat - I don't see why it shouldn't be noted. Especially if it's going to affect development going forward - and based on how I STILL see people talking about this even now, it seems unlikely you can just say "case closed" and expect that to be the end of it. It comes across as just shutting out feedback entirely - and that's the worst thing you can do as a dev. |
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That immediately removes several points from her application of 'God Empress' title.
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