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Post by Nemjen on Aug 9, 2016 2:22:11 GMT -8
So Space Cadets I hope you can all help me with a bit of envisioning in terms of the potential for gameplay in Starnova. For those of you not aware there was a post made recently on Patreon that the focus is going to be on the story for now however that there is the potential to add a bit more to make the game more interactive time permitting. What I would like to know is how you see this integrating and what you would like to see come out of the gameplay in the most ideal scenario? Of course remember that we are talking about a game where you are managing idols as the theme, I don't think grid based mecha battles will fit in this time around. 
The Patreon post in particular said: I don't think we're going to have any game play this time to get the absolute longest possible scenario but maybe we can try adding a stat raising mini-game if time permits like Danganropa 2? Pew pew away! |
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Post by admiralcheese on Aug 9, 2016 11:02:19 GMT -8
Clearly we need an Arcade scene that is taken as dramatically as possible with mini-games like...
Dance Dance Space Revolution mini-game.
Whack a Cullen.
Starcat.
And many more.
Each mini-game has an idol who is extremely good at it but every game with a high score counter mysteriously has CUL at the top of the board.
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Post by asadekai on Aug 9, 2016 11:56:50 GMT -8
I'd imagine the arcade scene would come as a planned shopping trip, but everyone got sidetracked at the start and they ended up going to the arcade. Of course, that's just my idea of it.
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Post by contheone on Aug 10, 2016 2:51:33 GMT -8
Clearly we need an Arcade scene that is taken as dramatically as possible with mini-games like... Dance Dance Space Revolution mini-game. Whack a Cullen. Starcat. And many more. Each mini-game has an idol who is extremely good at it but every game with a high score counter mysteriously has CUL at the top of the board. whack a Cullen has to happen |
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Post by Nemjen on Aug 10, 2016 3:27:23 GMT -8
This is just starting to sound like Wii shovelware Cheese, Starnova Arcade: Cabinet Games anyone? So from what I am gathering so far there is an interest for the mini-game(s) to play a part in a specific part of the story rather than an overarching gameplay theme like the stat management of Academy? I do admit I like the leaderboard reference and whack a Cullen.  |
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Post by clove on Aug 10, 2016 7:05:46 GMT -8
Maybe a mini-game where the protagonist relaxes at the end of the day by playing a game. A game where he gets to be an exiled starship captain who recruits pretty girls to fight for him as pilots in space.
No mecha? Oh right, never mind.
Well....... mini-games in of themselves aren't bad. But if they are pointless little things and are mandatory I think it is bad. I purchased Sunrider Academy, even though it is a game I normally wouldn't play. I figured I got Sunrider for free anyways, so here's some money. And I did try it, but never came close to finishing it. The stat management is just boring to me.
If the 'game' is required, then please don't make it a tedious click-fest, like in Academy.
So I would say either make it a straight Virtual Novel where you get to pick your path and the choices make real impacts on the story... OR make the game so that it doesn't take a lot of time if the player doesn't want to mess around with it. Or skip-able altogether.
Here's my idea for a new game that could be integrated into Starnova. Home Design. As in "Fully Functional Babe Lair" management. Use the money earned from working as a manager to make a better and better place for manager to live. Better place to live impresses the girls more. And you can customize the manager's home with a particular waifu in mind from conversation by having things they appreciate. The booze-loving girl would probably be more impressed by an in-home bar more than the other girls, for example. The sweet, innocent girl would be less impressed.
And the game can be streamlined in easier difficulty by having your college intern assistant do it for you. So dialog options opened by different things in the home will be there even if you choose not to do it yourself, and perhaps even add some humor as the protagonist pretends like he did it himself (if it is on easy difficulty). Synergy bonuses could be present if you have complementary items as well. Layout of items could be important too, kind of a Feng Shui thing.
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Post by asadekai on Aug 10, 2016 10:05:07 GMT -8
Stepping aside from the arcade ideas for a moment, maybe have customizable clothing? I get annoyed when I see the same outfit over and over again, which I can let slide in some cases like Sunrider where it makes sense (and they have two outfits anyways) but a game like this, I feel like I should expect to see a change of clothes once and a while. Ideally, there'd be a system that randomly selects random pieces of clothing in a certain topic (casual, fancy, swimsuit, etc.) out of the ones you've purchased and use them for each scenario that happens. You eould also be able to put some together yourself and make outfits for the randomizer system to use. Of course, if I could just change what the girls wear, that'd be good enough.
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Kyon
Civilian
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Post by Kyon on Aug 10, 2016 10:22:57 GMT -8
My favorite parts of the Sunrider games was that the gameplay required skill and thinking to be good at at higher difficulties. I was even able to have a bit of fun with Academy, even though it was mostly RNG based. But they both still made me feel acomplished and actually made me want to finish the game (I'm not a big fan of visual novels in general, Mask of Arcadius was the first one I ever finished.) So I feel like adding some sort of rewarding gameplay to break up the visual novel aspects of the game would not only freshen it up for returning players, but give an incentive to people outside of the fanbase to try out the game. Which is how I got pulled into Sunrider. Because I'd just finished X-Com and was looking for something to fill the void and I heard about this free game that had a solid story structured around good, rewarding turn-based strategy and before I knew it I was hooked. Anyway, just food for thought, thanks for reading all of this if you did.
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Post by Nemjen on Aug 10, 2016 11:03:10 GMT -8
Stepping aside from the arcade ideas for a moment, maybe have customizable clothing? I get annoyed when I see the same outfit over and over again, which I can let slide in some cases like Sunrider where it makes sense (and they have two outfits anyways) but a game like this, I feel like I should expect to see a change of clothes once and a while. Ideally, there'd be a system that randomly selects random pieces of clothing in a certain topic (casual, fancy, swimsuit, etc.) out of the ones you've purchased and use them for each scenario that happens. You eould also be able to put some together yourself and make outfits for the randomizer system to use. Of course, if I could just change what the girls wear, that'd be good enough. If you follow the Patreon the topic of customisation also came up today, could possibly be a strong contender. My favorite parts of the Sunrider games was that the gameplay required skill and thinking to be good at at higher difficulties. I was even able to have a bit of fun with Academy, even though it was mostly RNG based. But they both still made me feel acomplished and actually made me want to finish the game (I'm not a big fan of visual novels in general, Mask of Arcadius was the first one I ever finished.) So I feel like adding some sort of rewarding gameplay to break up the visual novel aspects of the game would not only freshen it up for returning players, but give an incentive to people outside of the fanbase to try out the game. Which is how I got pulled into Sunrider. Because I'd just finished X-Com and was looking for something to fill the void and I heard about this free game that had a solid story structured around good, rewarding turn-based strategy and before I knew it I was hooked. Anyway, just food for thought, thanks for reading all of this if you did. Thanks for the kind words and food for thought, it all helps. |
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Post by asadekai on Aug 11, 2016 21:15:01 GMT -8
Random food for thought, what about some idol interaction routes? Yes, it's kinda crazy, but I thought I might as well throw it in there.
Basically imagine additional routes involving 2 or more characters, kinda like the harem route except now with everyone. Imagine a route with both Aki & Mika, Sasaki & Nemu, or Julie & Natsuki.
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Post by CuteLittleGirl on Aug 18, 2016 1:17:33 GMT -8
Well since the game is about idols it should have some sort of rhythm/music minigame. Having a stat progression system of Voice - Dancing - Appeal could be neat too since its about producing idols. Picking what shows/events for the girls to go to as well to compete for ratings would be another sim aspect. A quick glance over the idolmaster series could give you a bunch of ideas on little things to throw in to make it more interactive.
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Post by Nemjen on Aug 18, 2016 3:55:53 GMT -8
Thanks for the recent suggestions everyone, one of the things I quite like hearing is how people associate when they are given a topic and what it can bring to light. Now while not everything can be incorporated I like to think that these type of discussions can expose both the comforts and opportunities that will help us all get in the mood for Starnova. Right back to creating... science. (It's alive).  |
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Linaril
Civilian
The last enemy that shall be destroyed, is death!
Posts: 9
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Post by Linaril on Aug 19, 2016 8:10:37 GMT -8
My favorite parts of the Sunrider games was that the gameplay required skill and thinking to be good at at higher difficulties. I was even able to have a bit of fun with Academy, even though it was mostly RNG based. But they both still made me feel acomplished and actually made me want to finish the game. So I feel like adding some sort of rewarding gameplay to break up the visual novel aspects of the game would not only freshen it up for returning players, but give an incentive to people outside of the fanbase to try out the game. Which is how I got pulled into Sunrider. My thoughts exactly. I always enjoied how much "options" you had in love in space games. Do you wanna play VN? - set difficulty Do you want a challange - set difficulty Are you here for story? - just play Do you look for h-scenes - download patch I personaly hope Starnova will remain in this "flavor" of Love in Space. On top of that I personaly love easter eggs. Would be great to find them here and there pointing to things from Sunrider (such as whole story actually takeing place on one of the planets from the sundrider game). |
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Post by Rellek on Aug 21, 2016 17:38:31 GMT -8
I won't complain if it doesn't have a gameplay element as long as the VN bit is good, but it would be nice.
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Post by KnightOfXentar on Sept 5, 2016 12:34:35 GMT -8
this is my view on announcement of Starnova:  |
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Post by Nemjen on Sept 5, 2016 12:39:10 GMT -8
You.... want explosion magic? Sadly I do not walk the path of Megumin so I cannot claim expertise on the matter.
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Post by KnightOfXentar on Sept 6, 2016 3:01:30 GMT -8
You.... want explosion magic? Sadly I do not walk the path of Megumin so I cannot claim expertise on the matter. Actually, it goes like this: Megumin tryin' to look cool (she fails miserably) = announcement of Starnova Kazuma and Aqua staring at Megumi with the look that says " so lame" = my reaction about Starnova though you had good idea. An explosion would be nice to clean up the rough edges of Starnova (or just to blow away whole Starnova)  |
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Post by Nemjen on Sept 6, 2016 11:32:51 GMT -8
Come on now, we are working hard behind the scenes because we want to try something different.  But hey if its not your cup of tea, its not your cup. |
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Post by KnightOfXentar on Sept 7, 2016 12:08:45 GMT -8
Come on now, we are working hard behind the scenes because we want to try something different. But hey if its not your cup of tea, its not your cup. Well, whole time I thought that because people wanted something different, that's why they played Sunrider  You know, there are only few games similar to Sunrider ... now that I think about it, only 2 good games that come to my mind: Daiteikoku and Galaxy Angel On the other hand: idol simulation?? There have been so many games in this category... Don't get me wrong, it will probably attract some new audience, but deep down majority of players will hope for another Sunrider game... |
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Post by warmach1ne32 on Sept 13, 2016 7:03:29 GMT -8
Hmm, maybe have the idol's practice sessions be a rhythm game like DDR. The score then becomes XP for the idols to level up. The benefits of leveling up could be put in a skill tree for rhythm combos with the other idols or maybe unlock new songs or routines. You could use the same rhythm gameplay for the concerts the higher the score, the more popular the idols are. Maybe something like Metronomicon you switch between characters as their part of the song is played and be able to select everyone for when everyone have to sing. All that can be done in 1 DDR rhythm lane instead of 7 rhythm lanes. The songs should maybe included either everyone so that not only your waifu idol take all of the spotlight have the songs' notes be predetermined to be fair to the other girls performing. This could be a fun gameplay loop or a stressful mess if you make it too difficult so maybe add a difficulty level like in Sunrider but instead of Naval rank maybe the usual beginner, adept, master, and maybe Rhythm Whale for the Space Whale diff.
You probably know you need a lot of songs for the idols to sing so other than making the rhythm gameplay, you might want to have a big, not huge, library of songs. But be careful with making sh!tty songs just to fill the library, the players would notice and rage. I'm sure there are going to be great songs just worried about having filler songs.
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Post by tswordz on Sept 18, 2016 19:10:45 GMT -8
Well, guess we'll need a way to improve the skills/stats of the girls, but with more options than Academy (More skills/stats, less points required on them to not make this a chore). The idea of different minigames for different skills is nice, but maybe it's a bit difficult to code, I guess.
About credits, I think the girls need different clothes. Also we'll need some places to train, a house that could be improved. Also the option to buy different and better equipment, manage marketing, prepare stages, concerts. Customize! For example the clothes, lights, fireworks, lazors... ok, maybe it's a bit too much :-P
But costomize a house, stage and clothes could be nice :-)
Ehmm, yeah, I know it's a visual novel (I think XD), but... sorry, I mixed Academy and Sunrider and thas was what I imagined :-P
Ah, it's true! Options! Visual Novel mode, with minimal interaction with stats and buying things. Starnova Mode, with all the options active and Space Idol with additional difficulty :-)
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Post by warmach1ne32 on Sept 24, 2016 6:49:23 GMT -8
Basic number stats training system like in Academy is a bit repetitive. Maybe a mini-game/practice of a concert, with a rhythm game mechanic, and the higher the score with multipliers the more experience they have this can result in level ups. Then you can do an RPG-style skill points where the higher the points the more benefits skills like Singing(increase score-multipliers), Stamina(allows for longer songs/routines/combos), Agility (more dance moves), and etc. This is only the few categories I can come up with but you can customize your play style to be more focused on score-multipliers because you are always on point, get more value on combos/dance routines, or a balance of the 2.
Costumes can be either cosmetic or give passive buffs like increased popularity and such. A training studio to practice and level up the idols is a must, lights are kind of mandatory on any stage so they might not need to put a Lights buff item in, Fireworks could be a good consumable to maybe double the popularity/happiness of the crowd, and Lazor Light Show could be a cooldown ability that doubles the multiplier when you remember that the next segment of the song being play has a lot of points coming up so you activate it to get more points. The light show can be used once per show but is available to be used multiple times, maybe have the option to set it on a timer to make it easier.
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Post by limith on Jan 20, 2017 18:59:07 GMT -8
On the minigame I think Osu! is honestly really good for what it does and the programming effort required to make a minigame that is as good as Osu well probably won't be worth it. I don't think you could integrate a C# game into renpy.
With regards to why I like Sunrider, Kyon is on the mark. However I know LiS is catering to a different demographic with this game so obviously something as detailed as Sunrider won't work.
In terms of what I enjoyed about the beta so far is the writing that reminds me of Konosuba. Good amount of effort by the writers this time. I'm not sure if this is evident enough in promotional material or whether the target audience would care.
As for gameplay content, I wouldn't mind stat raising minigame, but as mentioned there are many of these games already in existence. Quite a few flash games from childhood come to mind. I also didn't play Academy so I'm not sure with regards to my feedback in relation to that game.
One possibility would be perhaps budget balancing and choosing which days/venues to perform? It's implied in part 1 that some of the characters have money problems and the agency does as well. So it'd be something like a sim game, except instead of raising character stats it would be the agency itself. Whether your agency is successful, how you divide up the salary, and which tasks you choose could also impact scenes. Eg if you are desperate you could send them to do a risque photo shoot and trigger a scene where some of the team threaten to quit. Or if you manage things better you can cover the pay for some of the idols so they don't need to work at night. If you don't cover their salary and do too many shows then some of the girls may get burned out. You can hire a dance instructor, show coordinator, assistant, etc. So once you hire the dance instructor the girls would stop commenting about the DVDs.
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Post by warchiefwilliams on Jan 22, 2017 20:13:08 GMT -8
Just been revived from cryo, and I hope I'm not necro-posting...
Personally, given my experience of the beta so far, I would be fine if the gameplay is limited to making the executive choices (who gets to be lead, which one to “connect” to). The Writing is fantastic, and I wouldn’t mind the game being a pure visual novel. Though if I had to make a suggestion, it would be to make the day-to-day management of an idol group the gameplay. Just like what Limith said, you have to figure out salaries, conduct advertising activities to boost the group’s image, etcetera, etcetera. I don't think that there should be too much in the ways of stats, perhaps just available funds, and the stamina/temperament of each character.
An example of management in action: Using “that place” for photo shoots was acceptable early on for the group, due to the limited resources of the agency. Later on though, the girls expect to have their shoots done at more respectable locales by bigger name magazines, rather than second-rate tabloids and border-nudie mags. Continued use of “that place” will save yen, allowing for better salaries for the girls, better concert venues, and personal gain for the producer. However, some of the girls might get infuriated knowing that their image is now almost permanently associated with “that place”, perhaps threatening to quit unless you find a different locale. Some girls might not be as annoyed though, believing that “bad press is better than no press” and may push for even more risqué shoots/actions.
Just an idea…
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Post by limith on Jan 23, 2017 3:26:33 GMT -8
Just been revived from cryo, and I hope I'm not necro-posting... Personally, given my experience of the beta so far, I would be fine if the gameplay is limited to making the executive choices (who gets to be lead, which one to “connect” to). The Writing is fantastic, and I wouldn’t mind the game being a pure visual novel. Though if I had to make a suggestion, it would be to make the day-to-day management of an idol group the gameplay. Just like what Limith said, you have to figure out salaries, conduct advertising activities to boost the group’s image, etcetera, etcetera. I don't think that there should be too much in the ways of stats, perhaps just available funds, and the stamina/temperament of each character. An example of management in action: Using “that place” for photo shoots was acceptable early on for the group, due to the limited resources of the agency. Later on though, the girls expect to have their shoots done at more respectable locales by bigger name magazines, rather than second-rate tabloids and border-nudie mags. Continued use of “that place” will save yen, allowing for better salaries for the girls, better concert venues, and personal gain for the producer. However, some of the girls might get infuriated knowing that their image is now almost permanently associated with “that place”, perhaps threatening to quit unless you find a different locale. Some girls might not be as annoyed though, believing that “bad press is better than no press” and may push for even more risqué shoots/actions. Just an idea… Totally on the mark with what I was suggesting. I forgot to mentioned earlier about keeping it light. It wouldn't even really be that much different than how normal VNs play out. If anyone's played ChoiceOfGames text novels it could be something simple like that (although maybe you guys would want a better UI). |
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Post by limith on Jun 4, 2017 14:41:53 GMT -8
So I'm playing Sunrider Academy and I have some thoughts on why the sim management in that game got bad reviews. The TL;DR is too much clicking on meaningless choices. There are simply too many days/months in Sunrider Academy's time management part. I basically solved the management part of the game by week 3. Everything after was a rinse and repeat of the same things. Stress over 17? Take a walk in the park. Stress under 15, luck over 21? Work at the shopping center. Work on homework during lunch. Luck near 21? Pray and donate 5 coin. I'm in month 4 and basically have nothing meaningful to buy except gifts. It's a problem that the Endless Space/Legend (as well as Civilization) series suffers from which is players ending up doing what should be automated. This isn't saying that sim management aspects are bad. Rather it's an issue with implementation. There are two I can think of to solve this problem. 1) Instead of decisions at the small/micro level the decisions should be at a higher level like how the current decisions in each Starnova route are 'major' decisions. Eg M&T mod for EU4 focuses on decisions at higher levels rather than the player spam clicking mana on development. 2) Provide change and uncertainty while ending the management before it gets 'boring'. A great example of this is the game Black Closet. That VN has unpredictable elements and adds new challenges mid-way through the various weeks. Special events also add new challenges that are not expected. They also cut off the game around the time you get too powerful as the same simulations get boring once you 'solve' them. Consider UI improvements and automation (eg www.kongregate.com/games/sadpandastudios/crush-crush), sliders, toggles, etc to reduce clicking required. Just some thoughts to keep in mind if gameplay ever gets into Starnova (unlikely imo) or if the team ever revisits this again. Again I don't hate time management or resource management games and I think many people are interested in them (eg see 3 million players for crush crush). It was mostly an issue with the execution. |
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Post by kanabestgirl on Aug 6, 2017 18:13:26 GMT -8
I REALLY don't think you should add gameplay in Starnova. Considering that the finished versions of the Sunrider games would still sometimes crash and the fact that bugs will inevitably pop up while programming in games, I don't see any point in spending time and money on game development. Look, the main draw of Starnova for me, and I assume many potential buyers is the story. The tears, the struggles, and the (hopeful) triumph of the girls. I enjoyed the gameplay of Sunrider very much, but I loved the story even more. Listen, LiS. You've said yourself that gameplay was not going to be the focus of Starnova. I'd rather you write and refine this VN into a damn good story rather than making a forgettable game as an afterthought.
Would it actually make financial sense to spend the time and money into making a game that is absolutely non-essential to the main game? I just don't think it's financially wise to do so. Will you get enough extra buyers to supplant the cost of making a game/minigame? Will people appreciate having the story come to a forced stop so they can click a few buttons and play a minigame? I don't think so. Yes, people have said that the games could help fill in the gaps between such scenes. But why couldn't you just do that with a bit of writing? Ya know, crack a couple of jokes here; develop a little bit of character there. I would much prefer that instead.
I would much prefer LiS to entirely ditch the notion of including any gameplay in Starnova. Focus on fleshing out this story. You've already got a pretty decent skeleton. If you remember back to Liberation Day, many people critiqued LiS on focusing too much time on gameplay and not enough on story. You've already made an impression on some fans that your stories can be somewhat lacking. I, for one, enjoyed LD a great deal, but also see that there were many missed opportunities and blemishes on that game. This is the time for LiS to prove to its fans that they can indeed write damn good VNs. Don't stop now! You've already built a good skeleton. Focus on fleshing it out! Don't build another skeleton that you don't need! If you can show us that you can write good stories and make most of your critics and fans happy with Starnova, then I feel like you can inspire a lot more confidence about the quality of your next Sunrider installment. Best of luck!
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Post by Nemjen on Aug 6, 2017 22:10:48 GMT -8
On that note, there was a post I made during beta 0.2 as an update towards gameplay explaining how we were treating it: Just wanted to say just in case it is seen as though I am giving mixed messages is that the way of looking at gameplay as a possibility in Starnova is that there currently isn't a system for it and we are not currently working on one. While we do tinker every now and again with possibilities the focus will be on the visual novel side of things before anything else. This is not to shoot down anyone who has been in contact about gameplay (including our lovely resident harmtouch with the above post) as I have quite enjoyed reading through what people would like to see. This is more so you understand where the focus currently is, Starnova is going to be our longest piece yet in terms of writing and therefore we want to nail the story first before anything else is considered. Back around the start of the project there were periods of downtime where development were waiting for assets and therefore had free time to look at possibilities of something end game so that for those who preferred traditional stat management and wanted some additional narrative would have the option, it was always going to be a separate entity to the story of Starnova. We then had a change of staff in Jan / Feb 2017 and this has been put on hold since. |
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Post by kanabestgirl on Aug 7, 2017 5:08:11 GMT -8
Nemjen, So then it would be safe to say that there is a very high probability that there will not be gameplay in the release version of Starnova, right?
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Post by Nemjen on Aug 7, 2017 6:26:26 GMT -8
With things as they are, yes (although ultimately the final decision would belong to Samu).
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