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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 9, 2017 6:09:27 GMT -8
I'm a big fan of strategy games. Just knowing your units will re-spawn next battle without a severe penalty feels a little exploit-y. There are several methods to penalise the player for losing units, the most extreme method of preventing this is permadeath and in most games ,the concept sounds rather appealing to me. In sunrider, I think it could only really be implemented as an extra non canonical 'hard mode' though as otherwise you have discrepancies in the storyline. I would like to hear other peoples opinions on this matter too.
Overall i just thought that the command point penalty of your riders being destroyed was rather minimal and there should a more severe penalty. An idea of mine is losing research upgrades on death.
In addition I think that sunriders difficulty system could be improved the only differences in difficulty at the moment is damaged caused and taken. But this would require sunrider to become more of a strategy game than a VN.
The question would then become are people more interested in strategy or the VN itself?
I think im one of the only people who has love for complexity and detail in strategy games. Im one of those people who enjoys playing the old ww2 games from the 1970's so i doubt many people would agree with me.
I'd just also like to state that the VN itself is very good, I wasn't trying to imply otherwise.
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Post by stuffwar on Dec 17, 2017 14:04:08 GMT -8
I don't really care for permadeath in these types of games. All it means to me is that if one of my characters dies mid battle I have to restart the battle unless I want subsequent missions to be less fun. Depending on the game that could be 30+ minutes of playtime lost for a mistake or something unforeseen happening. That's more frustrating than the challenge of finishing without losses is fun. Penalties can also create balance problems. Depending on the severity of the penalties, if you aren't dying as much as the game expects you to it starts becoming too easy and gets boring. The opposite is true as well. Unless the game offers a way to grind out money or upgrade points the game might eventually become impossible to finish which is certainly not fun either.
I think the difficulty system is OK considering the scale of the game and the budget. I agree it could be better though. While simple stat changes are appropriate in some of cases, changing the number of enemies or the types of enemy that appear can create something that feels a little less artificial.
What I'd like to see instead if they made a new Sunrider is change the way missions are designed. From what I've read it seems I'm not the only one who found that sitting in the bottom left corner and letting enemies come to you while picking them off is the optimal strategy. Moving and attacking using the same resource(AP) means that it's almost always better to attack another time instead of moving. The way Flak and Shield effects work, particularly the stacking effect encourages the player to create an iron curtain death ball. Also, the ships closest to the enemy get focused the most and being closer gives them more accuracy. "Terrain" based obstacles are rare and there's no line of sight which also reduces the need to move.
However, one of the biggest causes of this is that the start locations are always the same and how effectively small the levels are. Almost every ship has the ability the accurately deal damage across at least 30-50% of the map. This combined with the cost of movement and the sheer amount of enemies littering the battlefield means that there's really nowhere to go.
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Post by ChapterSerf on Dec 17, 2017 15:27:50 GMT -8
I think deeper strategy (terrain, special obstacles or gimmicks) would go much further than plain old difficulty spikes like Permadeath.
Permadeath also brings up more questions like how do you handle it. If the Phoenix goes boom, what about Icari? Is she dead? If so, how does that impact the rest of the story? That's asking a lot out of a relatively small dev to handle that level of "whatif?". It would probably work better if Icari is just hurt to the point that she can't fight, even if a new mech where to avail itself, but she still pops up in cutscenes, vehemently stating how much she TOTALLY does NOT like the Captain.
Another problem with Permadeath in Sunrider is you only have 6 (god knows how many in the next title) units that can die without utterly failing. If you lose one mech, I think that would make the next missions WAAAY more difficult. Balance would be a nightmare. It's not like Fire Emblem where you get new and similar units at a regular pace.
Also, a mechanic like optional Permadeath would likely be largely ignored by the average Sunrider player, who is probably more interested in Waifus than in-depth strategy, hence why more thought-out strategy lairs would be more rewarding than arbitrary difficulty spikes. On a lower difficulty setting, that someone more interested in story is more likely to play on, even the more quirky difficulty lairs could still be bull-rushed through/ignored thanks to flattening a battleship with one or two shots of Chigara's otherwise puny Laser, while someone who is interested in the strategy lair (IE: You) would enjoy that.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 18, 2017 8:33:15 GMT -8
Another problem with Permadeath in Sunrider is you only have 6 (god knows how many in the next title) units that can die without utterly failing. If you lose one mech, I think that would make the next missions WAAAY more difficult. Balance would be a nightmare. It's not like Fire Emblem where you get new and similar units at a regular pace. I entirely agree with what you say. I do not believe that permadeath would really work in sunrider. The permanent loss of rider could make the game impossible, especially if you lose the Paladin. I guess another method would be to have the 'hard mode' have a 'bad end' whenever one of your riders are destroyed . This was actually my original idea of how it would work there would be no storyline issues as bad ends aren't canon and no gameplay issues as you would have to restart. I'm all for something like this as it fixes the issues i stated in my original post. The only issue is that this, as you stated, would only appeal to a very small minority of people. I see this being a huge issue with torpedoes and flack mechanics. I wan't really wanting this thread to focus specifically on permadeath, mainly difficulty as a whole. I do like your ideas of making terrain a factor in battle. Take the scenario that the sunrider is fighting in an ion storm again. The closer you are to the sunriders side of the battlefield the more of a debuff you get, such as -10 to hit due to electrical interference or even loss of a specific weapon if you stay for too long. This would also counter the strategy that stuffwar was stating. It would encourage players to move their units forwards as well as not camping in the corner. Some other ideas that like are heavy weapon mechanics from warhammer, making specific weapons less accurate if the unit has already moved (as both actions would be occurring at the same time) I still like the idea I stated earlier, every time a rider is destroyed you lose a minor research upgrade . It would cause a penalty for losing units while not making the player have to restart. I think this would be less objectionable to the majority of the sunrider players. I also think that PACT supports were a little too annoying, It got to the point where your entire flack shield could be disabled in one turn leaving you entirely at the mercy of torpedoes. Or shutting off all your shielding letting every enemy unit focus down the sunrider with lasers. On that point, was it just me or towards the end of battles, when the Paladin used its sentinel ability, enemies would still focus down the sunrider. Maybe the AI wouldn't attack my Paladin because it was to tough or maybe my game was glitched but this seemed to consistently happen to me. Its nice to know I'm not the only person who has played fire emblem here also many hours of lunatic plus mode has made me immune to the frustration of restarting due to rng going against you. Having to restart several times before you even hit start isn't fun (bloody counter)(luna+ wasn't nice either) |
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Post by stuffwar on Dec 18, 2017 13:01:01 GMT -8
Sola was a good answer to annoying enemy support units. She was able to accurately snipe them no matter how far away they were. Icari could work well too with stealth + Paladin taunt, though a bit riskier. 1 shot kill with minor investment into melee attacks.
I noticed that enemies tend to attack stuff based on distance and HP though with much more emphasis on HP. I think they also simply like to attack the Sunrider since its your main unit. Icari actually made for a great tank in the first game because of that. I kept her HP as low as possible but stacked evasion + flak and left her as far back as possible. Enemies would often try to kill her but failed to do damage most of the time.
For the Paladin I found that armor + flak made for a better tank since Chigara could heal and more damage reduction is more effective healing. The lower HP also meant that enemies wanted to attack her more since she appeared weak. Of course the occasional investment in HP is important to increase overall tanking ability. This was in the second game of course since she has the taunt skill. In the first game I went more offensive with her.
In terms of movement, I think the map is just too "small". It takes several turns to reach the opposite corner of the map but everything has so much range that it barely matters especially later when basically everything has lasers or missiles. The map is also very crowded with a lot of enemies. Each AP you spend moving is AP not doing damage. Even player units are abundant if you buy the alliance ships. Besides a lack of motivation to move such as being in an Ion Storm and taking a penalty, the player is simply forced to huddle in the corner by design. Even if I want to move in missions I barely find the time to do it because I have to sacrifice an attack which can mean a problematic enemy ship not removed during the turn. Since the player always starts in the corner there's also nowhere to fall back to.
I really love the Sunrider gameplay and think it has a lot of potential. Even if they don't make a Sunrider sequel I hope they'll make another game with similar gameplay and spaceships. It's hard to find SRPGs in general and the RPG world is completely dominated by fantasy which makes games like Sunrider exceptionally rare.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 18, 2017 14:25:23 GMT -8
I do agree that sola is the best way to destroy support units. I usually had sola target higher priority units as she would have to be awakened to 1 shot support units on the higher difficulties. I usually had the bianca spam aim down on random units and hoped the supports focused on using restore then using shutdown. Icari having her cloak upgrade often distracted PACT supports too.
When it comes to movement only Icari seemed to consistantly have an advantage to move. In liberation day my routine was Cloak, Move 1-3 tiles, melee, move back. So that PACT supports will target her cloak and she will provide the Paladin and sunrider more flack while not removing too much of her combat capability. I see using Icari more aggressively could work very effectively if her evasion is improved, I agree that she would make a very good dodgetank.
The suppression ability on ceran gunboats gave them a reason to move into range so that over units would get that buff.
Im not really certain how to way the AI choses its targets there seems to be several factors such as hit rate, damage and the Paladins sentinel ability. In pretty certain that the sunrider also is targeted more often but maybe thats because it isnt a rider and has lower evasion not due to the game targeting the one unit that causes a bad end.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 18, 2017 15:43:06 GMT -8
Moving and attacking using the same resource(AP) means that it's almost always better to attack another time instead of moving. This brings up an interesting idea. Should moving and attacking be based on independent resources? There will have to be fairly significant balance changes, I feel that Icari would need some large changes due to this but I dont see such a mechanic being too far fetched. I do think that the idea I brought up earlier could be implemented here also. Heavy weapons such as cannons might have a penalty to their hit rate if the ship moves in the same turn. There is a small issue lore wise though, I believe it has been stated that each rider is powered by a single reactor so there will have to be an explanation to how this is changed. |
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Post by ChapterSerf on Dec 18, 2017 19:53:18 GMT -8
Im not really certain how to way the AI choses its targets there seems to be several factors such as hit rate, damage and the Paladins sentinel ability. In pretty certain that the sunrider also is targeted more often but maybe thats because it isnt a rider and has lower evasion not due to the game targeting the one unit that causes a bad end. There's an aggro mechanic which is, more-or-less, if something killed something, kill it. If Chigara's 100 damage laser sinks a Missile Frigate that turn, and nothing else was killed, you can pretty much kiss Chigara good bye as EVERYTHING is pretty much guaranteed to dog-pile her. I think Kryska's taunt basically simulates killing something that turn, thus drawing the hate. Sunrider gets targeted more often because it has a lot of killing power: double-tap on kinetics, Vanguard cannon, torpedoes, etc. I don't know the nitty-gritty specifics, but that's the basics. |
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 19, 2017 7:44:53 GMT -8
That is an interesting mechanic. Im interested if this stacks. e.g. a unit that destroys 2 enemies is more likely to be targeted than a unit that destroys 1.
The main reason why im asking is if the Paladin gets a kill using a weapon, would there be any point using sentinel if what you say is true?
This would explain why the sunrider seems to be targeted more often but i still think there might be other factors at play here too. I think we should check the gamecode or ask a developer to be certain.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 19, 2017 10:21:14 GMT -8
I'd also like to hear other peoples opinion on the blackjack and if others found it useful. In my opinion the blackjack was a fairly reliable all-round unit capable of dealing moderate damage to almost any unit on the battlefield. I understand why some on this forum has suggested that she was a bit weak as the blackjack isn't specialised to a specific type of target and didn't inflict the largest amounts of damage but I don't think that was her original purpose. I guess in a way, the blackjack is a budget sunrider. I'm not really sure how I felt about true awakenings, I didn't really want the liberty occupied healing up the blackjack and the paladin so I usually cancelled the awakening after a couple of stacks but they did increase her effectiveness quite majorly.
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Post by stuffwar on Dec 20, 2017 23:52:35 GMT -8
I'd also like to hear other peoples opinion on the blackjack and if others found it useful. In my opinion the blackjack was a fairly reliable all-round unit capable of dealing moderate damage to almost any unit on the battlefield. I understand why some on this forum has suggested that she was a bit weak as the blackjack isn't specialised to a specific type of target and didn't inflict the largest amounts of damage but I don't think that was her original purpose. I guess in a way, the blackjack is a budget sunrider. I'm not really sure how I felt about true awakenings, I didn't really want the liberty occupied healing up the blackjack and the paladin so I usually cancelled the awakening after a couple of stacks but they did increase her effectiveness quite majorly. I found the Blackjack to be very effective with awakening if you keep her HP up with Chigara. My Sunrider and Paladin were tanky enough that I could afford to heal her instead of them for a while. I played on the default difficulty so spending my healing on her awakening may or may not be viable at higher difficulties. I put her near at the edge of the Sunrider's shield with the Paladin to maximize Flak coverage for the trio + backline. With some points in HP/flak she was reasonably tanky while putting out a lot of damage. I personally specialized in laser/pulse laser on her rather than trying to use every weapon type. I only made minor investments into kinetic/assault to reduce the EN costs just enough to allow for an attack with them when needed. Assault was generally more useful than kinetic on her for cleaning up pests like Mooks if she wasn't busy with other stuff and Icara left her any scraps. Also did a small amount in melee late game when a lot of those elite ryders show up for easy clean up. Never used the missiles. |
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 21, 2017 3:07:45 GMT -8
As the blackjack is very versatile it can be easily molded to fit the players playstyle, you can refund all of her weapon upgrades an specialise in just one to target a specific type of enemy, or you can use it as I did, to finish off already damaged enemies after a more specialised unit engaged e.g. Sola and Icari
Im also interested what people think of asagas kinetic 'blast' it seems very reliable if you have to do some damage due to the fact that it has 4 shots but i see it becoming strong when upgraded.
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Post by ChapterSerf on Dec 21, 2017 9:32:41 GMT -8
Blackjack's Kinetic upgrade in LD was a badly needed buff to Asaga. As MoA wears on, heavily stacked shields and Flak became the norm, making lasers and missiles (Asaga's only killing power) useless unless you managed to pull or find a mook or something flimsy outside of the doomstack. There's a reason pretty much every guide for Sunrider harps on one thing: Kinetics. Kinetics are pretty much the only thing that can inflict meaningful damage outside the early game. Shields and flak become so concentrated that lasers and missiles are ultimately useless except in the oddball scenario, or stray missile frigate reinforcements that come from the top or bottom of the map.
Asaga's kinetics allow her to kill again.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 21, 2017 10:12:10 GMT -8
I agree, without excessive amounts of upgrades, she would be able fire the kinetic barrage twice, that would be 8 shots doing around 150 damage each. thats 1200 damage in total. Thats enough to destroy frigates and light cruisers and severely cripple battleships, assuming they all connect.
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Post by stuffwar on Dec 21, 2017 13:26:49 GMT -8
I agree that missiles were definitely useless. Nearly every single ship had some kind of flak and the larger ships all had 40+ of it. Not to mention the limited stock AND you had to pay to use them. I didn't run into too much trouble with shields though. Liberty + Union Frigates were enough to shut off shields whenever I needed them down.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 21, 2017 14:00:29 GMT -8
I would say that missiles were effective against destroyers usually the missiles path wasn't interrupted by flak. although the occational flakoff had to be used.
I agree that shielding was less of an issue but I didnt purchase union frigates until almost the end of the game but i agree liberty + PACT supports + union frigates made shielding less of an issue
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Post by bigfoot on Dec 21, 2017 17:02:39 GMT -8
That is an interesting mechanic. Im interested if this stacks. e.g. a unit that destroys 2 enemies is more likely to be targeted than a unit that destroys 1. The main reason why im asking is if the Paladin gets a kill using a weapon, would there be any point using sentinel if what you say is true? This would explain why the sunrider seems to be targeted more often but i still think there might be other factors at play here too. I think we should check the gamecode or ask a developer to be certain. Hate is fairly simple actually, its used with expected damage as a modifier Ships have a base hate of 100 it increases by 50% damage done and 20% of damage healed (or 250 for a disable curse) Targets are rotated through an enemy ship's weapons to find the best target using the following formula: est damage * (1+(hate/100)**(priority modifier/10)) The priority modifier is always 1.7 so that can be pretty much ignored e.g. (starting value + action) 100 hate (start) = 2 350 hate (after 1 disable) = 2.2 600 hate (1000 damage) = 2.35 4800 hate (Taunt activation) = 2.93 So if there was a 0 amour ship and there was a 100 damage kinetic weapon with 100% to hit, base priority would be 200 and (if you ignore taunt's amour bonus) a taunted ship priority would be 293. This assumes the ships have the same evasion and distance from the attacker, those are included in the estimate damage part. To my non-mathy brain, with higher damages the priority of hated ships rises so light damage ships are less affected by hate but I don't want to swear to that at 1am! Useful to know: - Blackjack doubles hate every turn whilst awakening
- Paladin increases hate by (hate+500)*8 while under hate buff so it really wants a damaging attack to do its best
- Ships that are resurrected loose hate
- Ships that attack lightly armored ships gain more hate via more damage (near death ships have low armour!)
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 21, 2017 22:26:58 GMT -8
Ok, that has cleared everything up, thanks  I can conclude that destroying a 1hp unit has very little effect on hate as hate is based on damage delt not kills. Ive still got a few questions though. 1) what effect does Sola's awakening have on hate? 2) As resurrected ships lose their hate, l assume that hate is stackable over several turns, is this true? 3) Does the Sunrider have any additional hate or a higher priority modifier by default or is it just based on the fact that the expected damage on the sunrider is higher due to low evasion? (or did I just fire the vanguard by accident or something .) |
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Post by bigfoot on Dec 22, 2017 3:23:02 GMT -8
Actually, you still deal damage to the ship at 1hp, if you deal 500 damage to a 1hp ship you will still get 250 hate buildup, and because it will have basically no armour left the damage is going to be huge (assault on a mostly dead cap ship is fantastic for attracting hate with Icari)
Sola's awakening doesn't directly focus hate, it does cause more damage though so it attracts more fire to her
Hate stacks throughout a battle, so if you deal 10K dmg over a few turns, you have 5K hate. This is why the blackjack when awakened becomes a bullet magnet (if it didn't dodge so well)
Sunrider will always be a priority target at the start because the chance to hit on Ryders with enemy weapons (accuracy about 60) is so low at range, expected damage is near nothing, sunrider can be hit much further away though.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 22, 2017 4:49:05 GMT -8
Oh ok, I just kind of assumed that the excess damage wouldn't be counted.
I guess this means that its best the get the killing blow on the Paladin as at low hp the ship will have low armour, so hence you will do more damage, create more hate and then have that hate +500 multiplied by 8 after taunting, meaning there would be a much higher chance for the Paladin to be targeted.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Jan 3, 2018 10:06:56 GMT -8
I had an idea that maybe on higher difficulties enemy ships of the same type could have amounts of variability. I think it might make the game better in a strategical sense. Does anyone else think this is a good idea?
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Post by bigfoot on Jan 3, 2018 10:55:14 GMT -8
That should be fairly easy to implement... Were you thinking varying weapons, varying research upgrades?
If you give me a few examples of what you want I can make a trial mod for you
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Post by defieroftheodds on Jan 3, 2018 12:57:36 GMT -8
My idea was to give a predetermined amount of research points to each unit of each type. I thought that each unit would be randomly assigned a set focus. My ideas for focuses are a specific weapon type energy/kinetics/missiles or just a lack of a focus and keep them as they are.
Just in case that was unclear, a ship with a energy focus would have additional accuracy, damage and reduced energy cost when firing pulse rounds or lasers.
I guess a focus on evasion could be tried too but I think that would be rider exclusive focus.
I'm thankful that you are considering creating this mod.
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Post by bigfoot on Jan 3, 2018 16:57:11 GMT -8
I've knocked together a very quick, basic, bare-bones beta for you. It's highly tweakable, just make a .rpy file in the game folder and copy-paste this in...
# Very Extremely Beta
init 5 python:
# Ship upgrade values, very roughly grouped to mook, capable, skilled, advanced
#Ryders:
PactMook.Upoints = [1,2,3,4]
PirateGrunt.Upoints = [1,2,3,4]
PactBomber.Upoints = [1,2,3,4,5]
PirateBomber.Upoints = [1,2,3,4,5]
EnemyAllianceInfantry.Upoints = [1,2,3,4,5,6]
PhoenixBoaster.Upoints = [1,2,3,4,5,6]
SeraphimEnemy.Upoints = [1,2,3,4,5,6]
PactElite.Upoints = [1,2,3,4,5,6]
PactSupport.Upoints = [1,2,3,4,5,6]
Havoc.Upoints = [1,2,3,4,5,6]
Nightmare_Flierdrone.Upoints = [3,4,5,6,7]
Nightmare_Ascendant.Upoints = [3,4,5,6,7]
Nightmare.Upoints = [5,6,7,8]
Arcadius.Upoints = [5,6,7,8]
#Ships:
PactCruiser.Upoints = [2,3,4,5]
MissileFrigate.Upoints = [2,3,4,5]
PirateBase.Upoints = [2,3,4,5]
PirateDestroyer.Upoints = [2,3,4,5]
PactOutpost.Upoints = [3,4,5,6]
PactFastCruiser.Upoints = [3,4,5,6]
RyuvianCruiser.Upoints = [3,4,5,6]
PactDestroyer.Upoints = [3,4,5,6]
PactCarrier.Upoints = [3,4,5,6]
PirateIronhog.Upoints = [3,4,5,6]
PactBattleship.Upoints = [6,7,8,9]
PactAssaultCarrier.Upoints = [6,7,8,9]
PactProtoCarrier.Upoints = [6,7,8,9]
EnemyAllianceCruiser.Upoints = [6,7,8,9]
EnemyAllianceSupportCruiser.Upoints = [6,7,8,9]
EnemyAllianceCarrier.Upoints = [6,7,8,9]
EnemyAllianceBattleship.Upoints = [6,7,8,9]
RyuvianFalconEnemy.Upoints = [8,9,10]
Legion.Upoints = [8,9,10]
# Pools
upgrade_pool = {
"evasion":["evasion", "move_cost_multiplier", "max_en"],
"support":["max_en", "evasion"],
"carrier":["max_en", "base_armor"],
"energy":["energy_dmg", "energy_cost", "max_en"],
"kinetic":["kinetic_dmg", "kinetic_cost", "kinetic_acc"],
"missile":["max_missiles", "missile_eccm"],
"melee":["melee_dmg", "move_cost_multiplier", "max_en"],
"battleship":["base_armor", "max_hp", "shield_generation"],
"defence":["base_armor", "max_hp"],
"shield":["shield_generation", "shield_range", "move_cost_multiplier"],
}
def lvlup(ship, upgrade):
name,level,increase,cost,multiplier = ship.upgrades[upgrade]
new_value = getattr(ship,upgrade)+increase
setattr(ship,upgrade,new_value)
level += 1
cost = int(round(cost * multiplier))
ship.upgrades[upgrade] = [name,level,increase,cost,multiplier]
ship.hp = ship.max_hp
ship.en = ship.max_en
ship.armor = ship.base_armor
ship.missiles = ship.max_missiles
return
def TechUp(ship):
if ship.faction == 'Player': return
points = renpy.random.choice(ship.Upoints)
ship.Upoints = points
pool = []
if ship.stype == "Ryder": pool.append("evasion")
if ship.support: pool.append("support")
if ship.stype == "carrier": pool.append("carrier")
for x in ship.weapons:
try:
if weapon.wtype == "Laser": pool.append("energy")
if weapon.wtype == "Pulse": pool.append("energy")
if weapon.wtype == "Kinetic": pool.append("kinetic")
if weapon.wtype == "Assault": pool.append("kinetic")
if weapon.wtype == "Missile": pool.append("missile")
if weapon.wtype == "Rocket": pool.append("missile")
if weapon.wtype == "Melee": pool.append("melee")
except:
pass
if ship.stype in ["Battleship",'Assault Carrier']: pool.append("battleship")
if ship.stype == 'Station': pool.append("defence")
if ship.base_armor >= 30: pool.append("defence")
if ship.shield_generation > 0: pool.append("shield")
ship.pool = pool
pool2 = [renpy.random.choice(pool),renpy.random.choice(pool)]
pool = upgrade_pool[pool2[0]] + upgrade_pool[pool2[1]]
while points != 0:
lvlup(ship,renpy.random.choice(pool))
points -= 1
return
init 25 python:
for x in storeships:
if not hasattr(x,"Upoints"): x.Upoints = [1]
if not ["True", TechUp] in x.create_funcs: x.create_funcs.append(TechUp)
It gives enemy ships a range of points it can invest in upgrades when their created, the ships then find what upgrade pools they are eligible for, and then picks two and randoms the upgrades from keys in it's list.
ATM its not picking weapon pools, I'll have a look at that tomorrow, it also can stack upgrades beyond what the player can (leading to a PACT battleship having 8 range on it's shields or having 70 armour) but that can be fixed later (and was fixed a bit by giving them two pools to draw upgrades from and less likelihood to stacking)
Let me know if that's the sort of thing you were after and if there's anything you want to see in it.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Jan 4, 2018 10:48:45 GMT -8
Thanks for making this script .
Sadly, under current circumstances I won't be able to test it out until tomorrow.
Although I have little experience modding, I do have some knowledge of programming but it has been a while since I programmed anything and I assume that python is quite different to C. I'll see if I can tweak the script to my preferences if need be but if you are willing to help, I might request your assistance for large modifications.
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Post by bigfoot on Jan 4, 2018 12:09:39 GMT -8
No problem at all, like I said it isn't working perfectly and I will have a look at it in a few days to see why.
If you want to tweak it without learning python (its very intuitive), the best thing to do would be add config.debug = True into an init python block, this will let you use the console from inside the game by Shift O and see what you can play around with.
Then you can click a ship and do...
BM.selected.Upoints # See what Upoints were given, its random out of a list
.upgrades # See what upgrades were given
.upgrades.keys() # See what upgrades are possible
.pool # See what options the ship could have picked from
(type exit to close the console)
but absolutely, give me a shout if you want a hand
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Post by defieroftheodds on Jan 8, 2018 2:55:32 GMT -8
That should be fairly easy to implement... Were you thinking varying weapons, varying research upgrades? Did you have an idea for varying weapons or other aspects? I'd like to expand on my idea so I'd be happy to accept any recommendations. In addition do you think this would actually be a good idea in the main game? (this was meant for higher difficulties) |
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Post by bigfoot on Jan 8, 2018 4:40:46 GMT -8
Do you mean vary weapon damage? or vary what weapons are equipped? Either way if its too random, it kind of counterproductive because if you don't have any idea of what the ship has, you cant plan for it because it becomes a lottery so we would want to be careful to fit weapons so they made sense (adding lasers to a fast cruiser is counterproductive)
I do think it would be pretty cool to have enemy ships have some varying stats though. If we make a cap on certain things like shield range, and make the ships display their stats then it would be pretty awesome!
I'm thinking of a few ways to implement it, the smoothest way I think would be to add a buff or an info telling the player what upgrades it has (buffs don't actually need to do anything to show the tooltip)
so something like "Defense Specialist" (tooltip) "This ship is equipped with advanced armor and reinforced hull".
The other way to increase difficulty would be to decrease some of the weapon costs, a lot of enemy ships are designed so they can only fire once a turn. If we lower the weapon cost so they can fire + move or fire twice, that would have a large impact.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Jan 8, 2018 6:58:50 GMT -8
I kind of had another idea regarding varying weapon damage which overlapped with this one. At the moment in Sunrider, we only have 2 outcomes of firing. Hit or miss (for assault and pulse its a little different but you know what I mean) My idea was to have each shot have multiple random outcomes if the shot hits. A simple way to do this is to have an outcome resulting in high damage (penetrating blow), an outcome resulting in moderate damage (glancing blow) and a third resulting in low damage(fails to explode but still deals damage). An additional part of this could be area damage, If the shot does inflicts a penetrating blow, some additional outcomes could occur too. This could be disabling a weapon, the enemy's targeting system or thrusters etc. Additional debuffs could be applied here as a result too. I had an idea to change the armour mechanic to fit with this. Armour would have an additional function. It would be a modifier that reduces the chance of penetrating blows occurring. (it might be a good idea to create another variable here instead) It would also have to be decreased in a different way. Just decreasing due to damage dealt wouldn't fit with area damage. Another part of my idea was to provide weapons with an armour penetration modifier. cannons and kinetics would be effective against armour and hence would have a higher chance of causing a penetrating blow while pulse weapons and assault weapons would have a lower chance etc. If done correctly I think this would make the game way more fun. Before factoring in damage modifiers and armour, by default glancing blows should be most likely. I can't wait to destroy the entire hanger bay of a carrier from across the map with Sola Tell me what you think. |
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Post by defieroftheodds on Jan 8, 2018 7:23:26 GMT -8
I think variability should scale up. Maybe on Captain difficulty a few occasional ships have an upgrade. Maybe on Admiral, every upgrade is split is divided into three subcategories and each ship get a certain amount of upgrade points. Small upgrades would be worth 1 point, moderate 2 points and powerful upgrades 3 point would be an idea. Maybe on space whale I goes a bit crazy and allows lots of upgrade points. Maybe an upgrade called 'upgraded reactor' could be introduced on the higher difficulties too.
So many possibilities. Now maybe I should teach myself python...
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