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Post by 白龍 on Feb 21, 2016 3:30:01 GMT -8
Note: This is on difficulty Captain, I haven't tried Admiral. It might be different. I'm not sure if any of this are spoilers, but I'm going to put one anyway.
I've been finding myself ridiculously inflated with command points. Does anyone else have the same issue?
This problem(?) still somewhat occurs after I get the +1000 extra command points. Albeit then I would have more uses for vanguard cannon so it's not as much of an issue.
But before that upgrade, the only two things I spend my command points on are full forward and summon battleship.
I use a Liberty double repair build so I practically never use resurrection, all guard, or repair drones. Nobody dies, and everybody leaves the mission with full health (Except maybe for Sola, Asaga, and Kriskus with digits off)
Before the extra command point upgrade, it's really difficult to safely use the short range warp + vanguard cannon combo. Although the rare cases where I use the vanguard cannon to snipe off pesky enemy support units, I find myself halfway to 4k again by the time I end my turn.
Full Forward lasts 3 turns, so there's only so many time you need to reactivate it.
I used to spam summon battleship whenever I had extra command points to spare, however after the recent patches I could only do this once a mission... And any subsequent missions this option also seems to be disabled. (I'm not sure if this is a bug or intentional.) I can see why they limited it else it'd be overpowered (at one time I had 3 alliance battleships on the field clearing the way and just replacing them as they fall back).
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Post by Marx-93 on Feb 21, 2016 3:49:47 GMT -8
Command Points have always been a tricky issue, and while I think there is some over-inflation right now, it's probably very balanced for the normal user Resurrection and drones are pretty niche. However, something that you may want is to use a combination of All Guard and Full forward more often: it saves you damage, and while repairing is good, avoiding the attacks gives you more money.
Also, there's some others unlockable orders that look fairly neat, and I tried Summon battleship once and it was fairly cool too, even if it looks expensive (I agree more than 1 summon per battle is OP though). Overall however I would say that if you're doing it well it should be normal to have ~4000 CPs. Now that they don't affect the plot, the idea is just avoid you being able to cheese the game using the Vanguard Cannon and Resurrection every other turn, and that is done with the hard cap. Also, shouldn't the VG not give you any CP no matter the enemy destroyed? It should be very hard to destroy so many ships (4 Capital ships gives you "only" +2000 CP) in one turn to get +4000 CP, and if you've done it, I think you well deserve it. |
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Post by 白龍 on Feb 21, 2016 4:30:02 GMT -8
Hm, I thought that might have been a little wasteful. But then again, it's better than just letting it sit at cap. I'll try it. ^_^ Avoiding attacks gives more money?  I thought it was as long as your units aren't damaged. Yeah, VG doesn't give any points. What I meant was after using it, and adding up the points from other kills. I remember one PACT mission, the first battle of Cera I think, (This was patch 12.2, I just patched to 12.4 and am trying it out now.) where they sent their ryders forward. I did two different starts.
The first start, I full forwarded and wiped all the ryders. I then wondered how much CMDs I was giving up from saving my VG shot so I redid the first turn and VGed the rear upper right support. I still managed to wipe the row of ryders and even damaged a couple capital ships in the back. I found myself hovering around 1700-2000 CMDs when I ended my turn.
Wrong mission. >.< I forgot to add in the full forward. I'll keep looking, pretty sure there was one mission where there was enough capital ships lying around to rack up 2k CMD after using VG. Oh, I'm not sure if they fixed this bug in 12.4, I haven't gotten that far yet. But if you wiped all the ryders and killed maybe 25% of the enemy capital ships by turn 2 or 3, the event where the Alliance carrier and 2 Alliance infantry doesn't spawn. Also, the scene will Admiral Grey tells you to go full forward doesn't trigger either. I redid the mission (from the same save) 2 times and it still wouldn't trigger. I ended it with only 6,000 revenue. ;_; |
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Post by Drath on Feb 21, 2016 4:38:55 GMT -8
We are actually getting much less CP than we used to in MoA. While the current Liberation Day CP formula closely mimics the old MoA one, CP gain was basically halved across the board in beta 10 and has remained halved ever since. Also orders are also changed to encourage CP use (FF and AG duration reduced from 5 to 3, SRW cost increased if used repeatedly in a turn, Resurrection cost increased from 2000 to 2500, Vanguard Cannon now 4000 instead of 2500, etc). So yea in terms of CP gain and CP consumed, things are actually harsher than in MoA, but having the CP cap forces people to use CP actively which is IMHO the main reason why players are starting to finding it excessive. Back then people used to hoard CP to tens of thousands. See: innomenpro.com/forums/index.php?topic=843.0To get rid of excess CP, I now use SRW extensively in every battle. As accuracy is no longer a concern when able to SRW every turn, I take out or reduce accuracy upgrades for Sunrider and pump them elsewhere instead to improve damage output. It's not a great way to dispose of excess CP though admittedly.
As for Summon Alliance Battleship, I've never really believed it was balanced at 2k CP if you could place it anywhere on the battlefield and spam it repeatedly. It's certainly a better use of CP than repeated SRWs. I think the devs realize this was a little unbalanced though and are trying to curb its use. If implemented as once per mission that's probably fine (just to provide some aid in getting out of tight turns with lots of reinforcements).
As Marx stated, VGC doesn't give you any CP back, so hopefully it should take awhile before being able to VGC again. P/S - Honestly I think you guys should try the game on at least Admiral though. Time to push it up when the game isn't kicking you hard enough and it should come naturally to both long time players of the game and turn based fans.  PP/S - Also for the record, I've never really supported the change from a single order per turn in MoA (except for SRW) to multiple orders per turn in Lib Day, thus allowing things like FF+AG every turn, heal from near zero to full in 1 turn with 2 repair drones, etc See: innomenpro.com/forums/index.php?topic=1548.msg67108#msg67108 |
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Post by 白龍 on Feb 21, 2016 4:51:46 GMT -8
Yeah, VG doesn't give any points back.
(With patch 12.4a)
This is the example I was looking for. The pirate mission with the Ryuvians.
I started the mission with 4k CMD. I full forwarded and managed the wipe the pirate force in 2 turns. On turn 3, the Ryuvians spawn in. After a little re-positioning with the local doctor, I VGed and MIRV torpedoed. After my other units cleaned things up, I ended my turn with 2710 CMDs. Over halfway to the next VG. |
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Post by Drath on Feb 21, 2016 5:10:04 GMT -8
Yeah, VG doesn't give any points back.
(With patch 12.4a)
This is the example I was looking for. The pirate mission with the Ryuvians.
I started the mission with 4k CMD. I full forwarded and managed the wipe the pirate force in 2 turns. On turn 3, the Ryuvians spawn in. After a little re-positioning with the local doctor, I VGed and MIRV torpedoed. After my other units cleaned things up, I ended my turn with 2710 CMDs. Over halfway to the next VG. Yea I think that's ok. Looks like pretty good play to me. You'll still need FlakOff to make sure those rockets hit or it could be quite a waste. And the rockets still need to be replaced. It was harsher back then in MoA because rockets/upgrades/items all drew on the same pool of cash. Now we are getting Intel at the same rate as we got cash in MoA and then we are getting Funds at a slightly reduced rate (as it factors in repairs). So essentially we were getting basically twice the amount of resources in previous Lib Day beta versions. From beta 12.3 onwards, repair costs are based on damage taken instead of hps at the end of battle, so that makes repairs more costly. Perhaps that results in about 1/3rd? (rough unscientific guess) drop for Funds but even so with the current system, it makes replacing rockets pretty much a non-issue. |
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Post by 白龍 on Feb 21, 2016 5:27:24 GMT -8
I see. No wonder I feel like I've been spending more on repairs than from 12.2 even though I made sure to keep everyone in high health. Yeah, that does make All Guard seem more appetizing. The Ryuvian mission is about the only mission I use rockets on. I haven't found any other mission where I need that high of a damage while risking flak. (Even in the Ryuvian mission it was risky as I already used all 3 of my flak offs on the 3 nightmares.) Have you found any other mission where it's worth the risk?
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Post by Drath on Feb 21, 2016 6:19:44 GMT -8
The Ryuvian mission is about the only mission I use rockets on. I haven't found any other mission where I need that high of a damage while risking flak. (Even in the Ryuvian mission it was risky as I already used all 3 of my flak offs on the 3 nightmares.) Have you found any other mission where it's worth the risk?
I'm generally a non-consumable player and mostly only use rockets for testing purposes. It's really good to hear more discussion on gameplay from other players though. Been saying relying on old testers only for balance adjustments could make things rather one-sided. But yes there are battles later where you'll be facing a bunch of dangerous reinforcements with no flak (or with only a single unit in their midst with significant flak which you can get rid of first with kinetics). No doubt the flak change for Arcadius ryders increases rocket/missile utility considerably as well.
Also Beta 10 was sent out without MIRV torpedoes or Summon Alliance Battleship and it was quite possible back then. You might try it out that way and see if you find it more interesting. I have argued for MIRV torpedoes to become available only very late, perhaps no earlier than battle 6 (right now you can start MIRVing in battle 3) but well some people like them.
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Post by 白龍 on Feb 21, 2016 7:02:12 GMT -8
I'm also a non-consumable type of player. I already infrequently use missiles, rockets I only use for something really special. >.< Back in MoA, I only used rockets against the Ryuvians and the Legion, there wasn't any other target I saw that was worth using a rocket on. Ahh, yeah. Though, I usually kill enough enemy units where those reinforcement need not warrant a something with as much firepower as a rocket.
However I am now trying Admiral, and things are considerably less squishy. While being able to do splash damage is great, I'm still not sure I would want to use a rocket on any unit with less than 2k hp.
Having no MIRV in battle 3 would certainly make it a lot more difficult. Being able to critically damage 2 Ryuvian cruisers and 3 Nightmares with 1 MIRV was a huge boon. That Ryuvian Falcon is very pesky and I would rather be able to focus all my units on it.
To my playstyle anyway, I see little use for the MIRV beyond the Ryuvians and the final boss. (I am really conservative with special ammunition.) I guess I wouldn't mind MIRVs being pushed past mission 6, I don't see them as being particularly critical or tide-turning aside from the pirate mission. |
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Post by Marx-93 on Feb 21, 2016 11:34:59 GMT -8
On the rocket issue. Having used rockets extensively, I can say that they have their use, but in general the game suffers a bit from a lack of a common "elite-battleship" and that makes rockets mostly unpractical on most units: The Assault Carrier was heavily nerfed in the 7.2 and Lib Day, and with all the later upgrades you don't really need a rocket to take down anything else quickly (in contrast to First Arrival, where Rockets were the only reliable way to take down one battleship quickly).
On limiting the MIRV, I actually disagree, but mostly on the cost issue: right now the MIRV costs 8.000 credits, which is most than anything else on the store except the Vanguard upgrade. It's powerful enough to warrant this, but at the same time it's basically useless in most fights simply due to not being worth it. Battle 4 is one of the few in which is plenty useful, and if you strip that out of it then it pales to the point even I would probably not buy it (also, battle 4 is very doable even without it, it just makes it a 3-turn cakewalk if you're ready enough, which I don't find bad per se; the Nightmare situation in 7.2 was similar in regards to upgrading shields and using All Guard, and like here is simply rewarding an unorthodox way of doing things).
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Post by saotomefirst on Feb 23, 2016 16:17:12 GMT -8
About command points: I do feel like the thread opener. I often have a bunch of CPs I miss on simply because I can't use them. I caught myself renewing FF every turn over the skies of Cera simply to get rid of excess CPs... Although I haven't tried that FF + AG strategy mentioned by Drath. Will certainly give that a shot. But I have to say, that Space Whale Order really made my life much easier when using SRW + VGC. It's still a dangerous move, as you don't immediately have available CPs to warp back, but it's so much safer to do it... And about Rockets: I do enjoy using them - I even upgraded capacity across my units a bit. But about MIRVs... I'm really opposed to the idea of splash damage given to players. It makes every thing so easy... Mission 3 barely made me break a sweat, and I can see I'm not the only one. Also on Cera 2, the Daggers that ambush the Carrier simply evaporate before my eyes. The poor guys can't do a single thing. Basically any group of 4 or more "annoying things" on the battlefield become a potential target for a torpedo. There should be something negative regarding using these - maybe increased energy cost? Reduced capacity (only one)? Or even a diplomatic penalty (e.g. reduced amount of money/CPs earned in missions where those were fired, or even a story branch where haters of this tech would sabotage your efforts, like increasing costs for using CPs, or raising prices on the market every time you use one of those?), I don't know, something to make this not so good...
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Post by vaendryl on Feb 23, 2016 23:34:51 GMT -8
A very interesting thread going on here, so I can't help but drop my opinion.
I feel the game by its nature and design is very snowball-like in its difficulty. the poorer you play the more you have to spend time repairing, resurrecting and paying repairs and rebuying mercs. playing poorly also sees you gain significantly less CP as battles drag on longer.
however, if you play well you have more CP and resources to spend, which in turn allow you to kill things even quicker.
the perceived difficulty then of the game from player to player varies wildly, and (as Drath has often mentioned) most people on this board are die-hard veterans of both the game and its genre. If most people here feel admiral difficulty is a fair challenge then I feel like I can guarantee that the vast majority of players at release is gonna cry on captain.
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I thought it was as long as your units aren't damaged. 
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