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Post by Histidine on Mar 5, 2016 6:21:10 GMT -8
There's probably going to be one of these here sooner or later (there's already several on the Steam discussion forum), so it may as well be mine. This is a laundry list of complaints/comments as is my usual wont, not really a coherent essay or anything. (Samu-kun: don't read this till you've gotten some sleep! Your health comes first.) Obviously spoilers!The audience hall incident
Okay, so Chigara got secretly mindjacked during the mind meld part and became a puppet then. Though it's not clear why Alice (who's already dead at the time Chigara flips) is the one controlling her, as opposed to Alpha or the broader prototype hivemind.
Kill-drones out of nowhere! It later occurred to me that it's not explained where they came from; were they part of the station's security system which Chigara hacked into when no-one was looking?
Kayto somehow gets to Grey without being shot, despite the fact that Chigara was onstage with him and presumably hasn't moved very far (not to mention the killbots are in the way). Uhh. Also, should Grey really be assuming this is a betrayal by PACT rather than the Prototypes' ace in the hole?
Now instead of shooting Chigara like I'd expected (for some reason), Kayto runs up and kisses her, and this breaks the spell. I was surprised, but... I actually think this bit works?
Aaaaaand then Fontana appears. Somehow, conveniently, he survived the massacre (incidentally, there's no mention of any PACT officials getting shot; did they all go to the bathroom?) and decides to shoot Chigara. Even though she's no longer a threat so far as the eye can see. Without even bothering to investigate what's going on. I thought this hastiness was kinda OOC for Fontana.
Of course Kayto swears revenge. Even taking into account the shock of the moment and his feelings for Chigara, Kayto swearing there and then to find Fontana and killmurder him no matter how much of the galaxy he has to burn seems a bit excessive.
Ava returns from her own convenient bathroom break and stops Kayto before he can try to assault Fontana. She pulls him out of the room while PACT soldiers fight with the drones...
Wait a minute. If PACT is the enemy now, why don't they make any attempt to stop Ava and Kayto from leaving?
Tactical Paradox Weapon
Okay, without PACT (or for that matter, an Alliance response team) trying to stop them, our heroes make it to the Sunrider airlock. They run into Kryska, who's apparently under orders to kill Shields.
Oi, if the Alliance's contingency plan being executed is for a PACT betrayal, where does killing Kayto come into this?
Should Kryska know about the TPW anyway? This sort of information seems like it really ought to be compartmentalized on a need-to-know basis.
PS: Grey, for future reference, consider using a code name for your emergency plan instead of blurting out "Paradox Core" where people can hear you.
Icari appears and talks Kryska down. We now go to the bridge, where apparently PACT is trying to kill us even though they didn't just before. Which, as seen in the tactical battle segment, they prioritise above fighting the Alliance (which is also trying to kill us). I know trying to code three-way battles would probably make Vaendryl jump off a building but seriously.
Well, maybe they don't know about the TPW and so don't know killing that should be the priority. Still, why do they care about the Sunrider running off and apparently shooting their common enemies when they're being swarmed under by half again their number in Alliance ships?
The TPW is apparently installed on Machiavelli Actual. Two things:
1) Given that Machiavelli Actual is presumably Grey's flagship (I'm pretty sure that's not what "actual" actually means, by the way), why is it far, far away from Cera instead of docked at the space station like the Sunrider was?
2) Machiavelli Actual is apparently well over 900,000 km from Cera (since the Sunrider short-range-warps past the Alliance line and still only gets to within 900,000 km of it). Why isn't it closer, to minimize the delay between Grey giving the order and the TPW actually being deployed and reaching its target?
One more thing: it's not quite of the same significance as the Mass Effect 3 Crucible, but some foreshadowing of the Paradox Core still existing might still have been nice.
The battle
I'd have done some things differently, but this battle is nevertheless a good one. I like the fact that it plays very differently from everything we've had so far (recall Marx's complaint about this in another thread).
The one thing that sticks out as a problem is the difficulty balance. Your force is small by LD standards, but you can get two extra strong units... if you made the right gameplay decisions. If you didn't, the enemies don't get any weaker to compensate. I managed to get through with the Falcon and tri-kinetics/lasers Sunrider, but it wasn't easy; anyone who doesn't have either of the bonus units and/or emphasised upgrades on the wrong units is likely screwed.
Bolivian Army Ending
Okay, my complaints are all really about the leadup to this. If we take that as a given, this part is actually nicely done; dramatic but not melo- (unlike some other Sunrider scenes I could name).
It's not clear why the PACT fleet has a take-no-prisoners order, but I can think of a few reasons for Fontana to do this.
Hey, aren't we forgetting something?
What was on that holo of Claude's that Ava found?
More complaints? Defenses? General thoughts? |
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Post by harukazeki on Mar 5, 2016 6:53:57 GMT -8
I want to hear what Samu has to say
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Post by reoko on Mar 5, 2016 7:31:45 GMT -8
The ending was so sudden and it's a big mess up, it's like Aldnoah Zero s1 last episode happened.
And i hope next game's story won't become something like Aldnoah Zero s2...
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Post by Nagashofchaos on Mar 5, 2016 10:13:15 GMT -8
Huh, I seem to be one of an few vocal (at this time) who actually liked the ending. In fact I'm probably gonna watch it again a couple more times. But anyway, I'm gonna give my own thoughts to you Histidine. The audience Incident
Why Alice: Well as noted by Alpha there is a traitor within their ranks on the unification of humanity, Alice. Alice as noted in the ending seeks to exterminate humanity not save it which was the goal Alpha. As for Alice being alive-ish, well she is a psychic being who is connected to a web of lesser prototypes. It's not completely stupid to say she can continue to exists "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" of other prototypes (Side note this theory also says Chigara could still be alive within the web if she is in fact strong enough.
(This is nearlly everything else combined, I wrote some, opened the game, rewrote it all.
The hunter drones, shrugs, says they crashed through ceiling.
Now to start off with Grey's comment on it being a PACT attack. To quote you "Aaaaaand then Fontana appears. Somehow, conveniently, he survived the massacre (incidentally, there's no mention of any PACT officials getting shot; did they all go to the bathroom?)". Yes because Fontana appears magically survived a massacre (quoting the game) "The doors were all sealed. The hunter drones systematically hunted down every Alliance officer and diplomat in the room". Which there for means, there were PACT members in the room they weren't targeted, and since Kayto isn't Alliance he too would be spared (thus he could have simply walked up to the stage). Which thus returns me to step 1, seeing this how could it not be a attack by PACT in Grey's eyes ( :3 funny thing is it wasn't)
Fontana shooting Chigara, you certain Fontana knew. For all we know he could have not heard a single word that occurred between Kayto and Chigara. As for his hastiness, well we saw the end result if you were the leader of a nation and you had the person responsible for guaranteeing the war will go on (thus the deaths of thousands of PACT? millions of PACT? billions of PACT? trillions of PACT? more) in your sights would you let it go? The main thing seems to be they did finally reach the edge of a peace treaty that is now gone.
As for Kayto -_- meh, probably a irrational reaction but slightly predictable (would have been a nice choice)
Ava's teleportation to the location is head tilting worthy.
And lastly "PACT troops busted through the locked door and exchange fire with the drones." now we come to the plot Alice, with hunter drones, appear on (most likely a broadcasted event) slaughtering Alliance people while ignoring PACT people. Then after sometime PACT troops come in and attempt to destroy the drones. Alice as such sought to prolong the war and by showing preference appeared to be PACT thus making Alliance go by Jingo.
Tactical Paradox Weapon
The order sounds more like a impromptu things due to a member of the Sunrider killing Grey. Thus it is possible others are traitors too and as Sunrider is a ship of doom and destruction, better cripple it.
As for PACT hostility, well if Fontana made it back he has 1 ship to thank for destroy the peace treaty. Also said ship may still have a prototype on it, not to mention previous hostilities have existed.
The Battle
I must agree I liked that battle, also got to use Cosette and gain MORE WMD TORPEDOES MWAH MWAH MWAH!!!
The End
Excuse me as I bath in the suicide mission that the Sunrider has been on since the beginning, hell even built for.
Are we forgetting something?
I think we are suppose to guess it's the medical report saying she is a prototype; which I'm quite certain Claude claimed she wasn't.
Other thoughts
Though the linear nature of this episode as a bit dissapointing, to me the ending and cliff hanger made up for it. As branching paths increase work load and increase development time permanently with each branch (depending on it's weight).
I also believe this isn't the end of Kayto. Not to say it isn't impossible, however this is the part of the anime that a deus ex machina come is (wishall); which since there wasn't a option to use it there nearly guareentees a certain end or a certain save. Now if it is the end of Kayto I see likely Fontana or Asaga being the main character.
However again my gut tells me Kayto is spaced and is found by a group called Cerberus lead by the Illusive Alpha, who will say "We can rebuild him. We have the technology". :3 if you can't tell this is a joke, but it could happen.
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Post by harukazeki on Mar 5, 2016 10:59:37 GMT -8
Aldnoahs ending I completely get it that was the feeling I knew I remembered it from somewhere
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Post by tsaieric on Mar 5, 2016 14:10:24 GMT -8
This is my thought on the game's ending: I understand that the team probably spent quite a bit of effort into getting the voice acting, but with the amount we put in as a community, I think a lot of people was expecting something more like another 4 or 5 hours of game play after the audience hall, but apparently what we had was quite different from what all had expected. I know there is a "To be continued" sign at the end, but I think people are expecting a lot more story content.
By the way, the last I checked on Steam, Liberation Day was rated as 52% positive compared to 92% positive of MoA. PS: I am updating this post after reading the post from Samu-kun. I think his message should have been said up front and explicit, so I am going to stay tune for the next episode. |
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Post by Histidine on Mar 5, 2016 20:22:51 GMT -8
Nagashofchaos : Hmm, good points. Some responses: Now to start off with Grey's comment on it being a PACT attack. To quote you "Aaaaaand then Fontana appears. Somehow, conveniently, he survived the massacre (incidentally, there's no mention of any PACT officials getting shot; did they all go to the bathroom?)". Yes because Fontana appears magically survived a massacre (quoting the game) "The doors were all sealed. The hunter drones systematically hunted down every Alliance officer and diplomat in the room". Which there for means, there were PACT members in the room they weren't targeted, and since Kayto isn't Alliance he too would be spared (thus he could have simply walked up to the stage). Which thus returns me to step 1, seeing this how could it not be a attack by PACT in Grey's eyes ( :3 funny thing is it wasn't)
[...]
And lastly "PACT troops busted through the locked door and exchange fire with the drones." now we come to the plot Alice, with hunter drones, appear on (most likely a broadcasted event) slaughtering Alliance people while ignoring PACT people. Then after sometime PACT troops come in and attempt to destroy the drones. Alice as such sought to prolong the war and by showing preference appeared to be PACT thus making Alliance go by Jingo.
1) Maybe the bots are specifically ignoring all non-Alliance targets. But does Kayto know this? If he doesn't know how exactly the bots are programmed, any sense of self-preservation says he should refrain from sticking his head out and risk getting shot, much less coming out in the open just to reach Grey. And if Chigara is still anywhere near Grey, I'd have expected Kayto to confront her first (seeing as she's still armed and dangerous) rather than grabbing a guy he most likely can't do anything for anyway.
This bit would be fine if the admiral was next to Kayto at the moment he was shot, instead of next to Chigara.
2) Alice trying to false flag the massacre as a PACT crime against the Alliance does make sense; in fact, it's probably what happened and I ought to be embarrassed for not figuring it out on my own.
But: There's no reason for the bots to spare Kayto in that case. Even ignoring the fact that he's been clearly Alliance-aligned through the whole war, he's also a high-profile witness who can say that this wasn't a case of "evil treacherous reds betray good noble Alliance." He needs to die.
3) It seems unlikely (though not implausible) for Grey to specifically notice the bots are only killing Alliance people and sparing PACT ones after just being fatally shot himself...
Fontana shooting Chigara, you certain Fontana knew. For all we know he could have not heard a single word that occurred between Kayto and Chigara. As for his hastiness, well we saw the end result if you were the leader of a nation and you had the person responsible for guaranteeing the war will go on (thus the deaths of thousands of PACT? millions of PACT? billions of PACT? trillions of PACT? more) in your sights would you let it go? The main thing seems to be they did finally reach the edge of a peace treaty that is now gone. Thinking about it further, shooting Chigara out of hand does make a certain sense. Fontana's in a panic situation, people are getting gunned down all around him and he knows Chigara is responsible. Who knows what else she might do - best to kill her before she can do it.
Though on the other hand, I'd have imagined seeing Kayto speaking with her (indicating the situation is not totally out of control would have given Fontana at least a little pause. If he didn't hear what's going on, I think that'd be more reason to not shoot anyone without trying to get more information first...
I think we are suppose to guess it's the medical report saying she is a prototype; which I'm quite certain Claude claimed she wasn't.
That's a good idea. Though leaving written evidence lying around... whyyyyyyyy
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Post by Drath on Mar 5, 2016 20:28:17 GMT -8
Today as I was going to work, trying not to think too much about things, I saw the following graffiti scrawled onto a wall There once was a man from San Diego
who wrote of a character called Kayto
he got us all stoked
and then [censored] off the bloke
which made us all here go LOCO! True story... maybe  |
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Post by Nagashofchaos on Mar 6, 2016 15:00:29 GMT -8
1) Maybe the bots are specifically ignoring all non-Alliance targets. But does Kayto know this? If he doesn't know how exactly the bots are programmed, any sense of self-preservation says he should refrain from sticking his head out and risk getting shot, much less coming out in the open just to reach Grey. And if Chigara is still anywhere near Grey, I'd have expected Kayto to confront her first (seeing as she's still armed and dangerous) rather than grabbing a guy he most likely can't do anything for anyway.
This bit would be fine if the admiral was next to Kayto at the moment he was shot, instead of next to Chigara.
2) Alice trying to false flag the massacre as a PACT crime against the Alliance does make sense; in fact, it's probably what happened and I ought to be embarrassed for not figuring it out on my own.
But: There's no reason for the bots to spare Kayto in that case. Even ignoring the fact that he's been clearly Alliance-aligned through the whole war, he's also a high-profile witness who can say that this wasn't a case of "evil treacherous reds betray good noble Alliance." He needs to die.
3) It seems unlikely (though not implausible) for Grey to specifically notice the bots are only killing Alliance people and sparing PACT ones after just being fatally shot himself...
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Thinking about it further, shooting Chigara out of hand does make a certain sense. Fontana's in a panic situation, people are getting gunned down all around him and he knows Chigara is responsible. Who knows what else she might do - best to kill her before she can do it.
Though on the other hand, I'd have imagined seeing Kayto speaking with her (indicating the situation is not totally out of control would have given Fontana at least a little pause. If he didn't hear what's going on, I think that'd be more reason to not shoot anyone without trying to get more information first...
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That's a good idea. Though leaving written evidence lying around... whyyyyyyyy
1. Well Kayto hits the floor at the sight of the bots, and as we "are-ish" Kayto we can roughly guess he at some point (from between his table and the stage) figures what we are told. Should be noted however he does crawls prone to the stage.
1.5 From the picture it seemed Chigara was on a Hunter Drone when talking to Kayto (shrugs) so that could have been part of the reason. What's more likely is the need for the protagonist to hear Gray's last order, and with that the Alliances betrayal (if you consider disarmament of WMD's (which as a aside aside is noted they do have some illegal with the highest grade torpedoes, but then again Super Nation's rights)). Is it exactly logical no, but you could probably find a number of similar scenes in other works.
2. I would agree, but again every Alliance member was slain except PACT members, Fontana and Kayto. Even with his Alliance orientation (which technically I was as anti-alliance as I could get) should he survive then comes the question "Why was it you lived along with Fontana, but Gray and (insert all other Alliance importants dead here); when these supposed others came in and had the perfect opportunity to kill the both of you, and what info we have of these Prototypes is correct they would want Fontana dead to require control".
Now I will say I don't think it was planned for Kayto to live; however that was Chigara's/Alice's job since he wouldn't kill his beloved Chigara. Also there's the need for the Villian to laugh in your face, to see you as you fail. As once again Alice is still not dead, she might have actually planned to keep him there until the bomb dropped (she's a Prototype, their is a good chance she knew the Alliance made a smaller version and had it at hand at the "final battle").
3. I roughly guess he had at the very least 1 minute, most... 5?, as he was alive long enough for Kayto to crawl to him. I will as refer you to the contingency plan that was already laid out that had the use of TPW in it. Quite possible all it needed was the assassination of Gray or attempt at to actually get it rolling. The Hunter Drone's could just be bonus points :3
4ish. Who knows what else she might do :3. Also had Fontana not did that we might have had another twist where it turns out Alice mocked being pushed out to immediately kill Kayto and Chigara (suicide).
5ish. Comic Relief :3, also medical records to be used at a later date (in case one had not been shot by someone FIRING THEIR LAZOR, dear god that phrase has burnt my soul)
Edit- Oh god also forgot this Remember Ava magically being able to get to Kayto and drag him out with two Hunter Drones present. I will point to this as more proof only actual Alliance Members were on the kill list. Had Krystal came in the room I would place bets she would be killed quickly. Edit- -_- Re-watching the ending (BECAUSE I LOVE IT) I've had another idea what could save him. Maray, to be exact the way Ghost Maray and Kayto reaction goes is he doesn't recognize it's there (in my opinion). He is closing his eyes remembering his failure as such in in the optimal way of having delusions of the dead; however Maray (I get the feeling) seems to be grabbing hold of him as well as the lack of words. Had she said I forgive you, or something along those lines it could be more easy to be written off as a delusion but she doesn't. To this end I hear by make the Hypothesis that the Ultimate being within the Obelisk of Sunrider Academy could be Maray. Should this be the case Maray (the ultimate being :3 ) could then perhaps the ability to teleport him away. Hell at that point they have a connection to Ryuvian tech so perhaps to exactly Ryuvia. It would as well be within reason she could move everyone else as well.
Anyway I've had a good couple chuckles writing that, time to bask in the quire music at then end (seriously the main epic/emotional pieces need to be include in the music gallery)
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 6, 2016 15:02:20 GMT -8
Uhm, I kinda want to save my words for a proper analysis later (it will be big) of the overall Liberation day writing, but for now, i want to say I actually quite liked the ending Kayto surviving is probably literal plot armour though. I also agree on the whole thing being set up as "PACT betrayal". One thing we have to take into account is that until helion PACT = Prototypes. It wouldn't be a stretch for Grey to assume that Fontana's faction was in the end controlled by prototypes too, and it was just an internal conflict between prototypes. And I also think Fontana did the natural thing shooting Chigara: first, he couldn't know if she really was just acting to backstab the captain (after all, in his eyes Shields could snap her neck in seconds, so tricking him would be the way to survive), second he couldn't know if that "assuming direct control" thing would happen again, and third he had basically his future burn to the ground in seconds by a prototype and a stupid captain.
Agreed on Shields overreacting though; Chigara's whole death felt pointlessly overdramatic. Now, the rest was good stuff (I liked Kryska and Icari's scene a lot, and the captain's final charge too; I could finally recognize the Kayto that seemed so strange to me since the beginning of Lib Day). They probably escaped from the killer bots and PACT troop using the chaos, though it feels a little strange Fontana let them go like that; now, them engaging the Sunrider is probably understandable given that Kayto just swore to destroy their leader and all of his accomplishments 10 minutes before. I actually think PACT vessels were probably trying to not engage Alliance and maybe acting with them: the last thing Fontana wants is a war, and the Sunrider would make perfect scapegoats. He probably was trying to do some damage control and hope that it doesn't end on a full out war. Maybe the Alliance even agreed to hunt for the Sunrider together, given that they knew they would just use the Paradox warhead at the last moment and just obliterate most PACT forces and Fontana. In all cases, I think the enormous chaos in that situation probably justifies some of the strange things that happened, though a bit more of explanation would be nice.
Also, agree that the battle was very nice: the kind of change I wanted. It was also good in the sense that you had to go forward to fulfill the mission the fastest possible which brought you precisely close to the Alliance dangerous kinetics. Without Cosette I struggled a fair amount, but luckily I managed to slip one MIRV at the Alliance carrier (Vaen, please forget everything bad I ever said about flak resistance) and that made the last part a lot smoother; I could even farm some reinforcements.
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Post by Histidine on Mar 7, 2016 4:07:35 GMT -8
Alice-gara not having the bots kill Kayto because she wants to taunt him before executing him personally probably makes the most sense. It's certainly the sort of cliche thing supervillains like to do. I actually think PACT vessels were probably trying to not engage Alliance and maybe acting with them: the last thing Fontana wants is a war, and the Sunrider would make perfect scapegoats. He probably was trying to do some damage control and hope that it doesn't end on a full out war. Maybe the Alliance even agreed to hunt for the Sunrider together, given that they knew they would just use the Paradox warhead at the last moment and just obliterate most PACT forces and Fontana.
Certainly PACT should be trying to do that, with our good friend Franz Fontana swearing up and down "it wasn't us who killed the Admiral, honest!" But if the Alliance is already assuming a PACT betrayal, and with the confusion caused by Grey and the entire Alliance senior delegation being dead, I really can't see the surviving Alliance command going along with any plan by "those filthy, I-knew-they-couldn't-be-trusted reds who just killed our leaders and are now trying to cover it up" come up with, it's obviously another trick of theirs! Don't believe a single word they say about anything, they probably just want to get close so they can take [us] by surprise again and destroy what's left of [our] leadership! that PACT destroyer in the last level should totally "accidentally" torpedo the carrier + 2 battleship group, if it's still alive And if the two already-mutually-suspicious parties have already started shooting (e.g. the Alliance engaging every PACT ship in range on account of, y'know, the reds supposedly betraying them and killing their leaders), it's going to take a miracle for anyone to get them to stop without some really dramatic event. |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 7, 2016 14:52:32 GMT -8
Certainly PACT should be trying to do that, with our good friend Franz Fontana swearing up and down "it wasn't us who killed the Admiral, honest!" But if the Alliance is already assuming a PACT betrayal, and with the confusion caused by Grey and the entire Alliance senior delegation being dead, I really can't see the surviving Alliance command going along with any plan by "those filthy, I-knew-they-couldn't-be-trusted reds who just killed our leaders and are now trying to cover it up" come up with, it's obviously another trick of theirs! Don't believe a single word they say about anything, they probably just want to get close so they can take [us] by surprise again and destroy what's left of [our] leadership! that PACT destroyer in the last level should totally "accidentally" torpedo the carrier + 2 battleship group, if it's still alive And if the two already-mutually-suspicious parties have already started shooting (e.g. the Alliance engaging every PACT ship in range on account of, y'know, the reds supposedly betraying them and killing their leaders), it's going to take a miracle for anyone to get them to stop without some really dramatic event. ... I actually would love that suggestion about the Destroyer.
Ejem. To be honest, I thought as probable that most details of the situation hadn't even filtered to most Alliance ships. The 2nd in command maybe just knew that the Admiral was dead and he had to fire the super-nuke at the traitors in the planet. Maybe he suspected PACT, but then the 3rd in command said the typical "Where's the admiral" and the XO started arguing with all the vice-admirals, rear admirals, etc that didn't know what the heck was happening and why they had to fire a supernuke at a planet they've just recovered. All in all, in the middle of the chaos there was probably the same chance of them firing one side than another. And at the end of Lib Day the Sunrider is a very formidable ship, above even Assault Carriers. So eh, not much of a stretch in my case. Of course, what you say is actually more likely, which is why I'll be fine with PACT backstabbing the Alliance in gameplay, but in the end it's not something that worries me too much.
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