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Post by truebeliever on Mar 6, 2016 9:27:50 GMT -8
I realize that I may be out of bounds here as a fan. I'm not privy to what Love in Space has planned for the series' future; they may have had very good reasons for going the route they did with Liberation Day's story. That said, I want to discuss why I had problems with the ending because I too hope for the series' success. In other words, I'm not writing in an accusatory tone, but in one of love (in space). Spoilers follow. I mean it; you've been warned: The game ends with Shields opting to take out Machiavelli Actual and its Paradox Core-based missile. It's implied that the Sunrider crew met a bad end, with Shields crashing the Sunrider and PACT killing the lifeboat-riding crew. An epilogue hints at further developments involving time travel.
So what's my objection? Not that I thought this was the end to the Sunrider series, but that I felt the ending missed a great chance to reflect the game's title and events, as well as the series' ongoing themes.
Let's start with the title. As matters stand, "Liberation Day" is a cruel tease, because nothing got liberated in the end. Victory at Cera was an illusion; Shields ends the game in a despairing attempt to make amends to the memory of his lost sister.
Shields, despite the soft spot in his heart, has consistently been depicted as a canny, clear-sighted man. When he departs from this, it's because of emotional issues and the player's choices in the Prince/Moralist dichotomy.
Ordinarily, such a man shouldn't opt to go out in a blaze of glory, but Shields was shattered by the loss of Chigara and his hopes for Cera, so it's understandable he wouldn't be thinking clearly.
But what of the crew? Why would they agree to go along with an obviously suicidal and pointless mission? Taking on Machiavelli Actual makes no sense: It's not certain that the Core missile is going to be used on Cera at that point anyway. (Kryska herself said the Alliance just had it as backup insurance.)And, in any case, destroying MA doesn't resolve matters at all. The Alliance will just make more Core missiles and be back to terrorize the Neutral Rim; Shields and his crew will have died for nothing.
More to the point: Why doesn't a particular new crew member object? Earlier in the game, Cosette was also planning to go out in a blaze of glory, and (assuming you saved her life) Shields talked her out of it. Who better to slap some sense -- figuratively and literally -- into Shields? "Didn't you tell me not to die pointlessly?" she might say. "Didn't you tell me not to throw my life away? Let's get out of here; let's start fresh and get these bastards later." (And if you didn't save Cosette, I imagine another crew member, like the ever-pragmatic Ava, would speak up.)
In fact, Cosette later opts to do just that; she abandons the doomed effort and leaves the Sunrider and crew to their fate. Cosette's crazy, but she's not stupid; by all rights, she should have balked even earlier. There was no reason why the Sunrider couldn't have warped away from the final fight instead of toward it.
It was at this point that Liberation Day had a chance to live up to its title and the series' themes. Every character who's joined the Sunrider has overcome elements from their past. In a word, they've been *liberated* from their constricted outlooks.
Asaga gradually grows beyond her immaturity; Chigara grows beyond her painful shyness; Icari grows beyond her ruthless me-first outlook; Kryska grows beyond her notions of pro-Alliance chauvinism. (OK, Claude doesn't outgrow anything, but, you know -- boobs and comic relief.)
That's the true liberation that Ava and Shields should have experienced: liberation from narrow concepts of nationality and loyalty. Liberation from the selfishness and parochialism that the Prototypes rightly despise in humanity. Freedom to take a larger, more enlightened view of the universe and the people and values important to you.
Again and again in the game we hear it: The Sunrider crew are family. Though they come from all over the galaxy, they're not just shipmates; they're comrades-in-arms. And that points to what Ava and Shields need to realize. Home is not just a rock in space; home is not just Cera. Home is where the heart is. Home is the Sunrider.
It doesn't matter if Cera doesn't get freed from PACT right away; what matters is that the Sunrider and its crew live to keep fighting. The failure to free Cera represents an opportunity for Ava and Shields to free themselves from their narrow conception of success. What they want -- even if they don't realize it -- is not just peace for Cera, but for the galaxy.
Could the Shields who saw the misery on Ongess really talk about turning his back on others and settling down to start a bakery and family with Chigara? That's the Shields that Shields needs to free himself from -- the Shields who thinks that as long as he's got his, everyone else can go hang.
That's not the Shields I've been watching through two games; that's the Shields who represents old ideas that keep humanity divided, even as the Ebon Fleet approaches. It's the liberation from those ideas that might enable the galaxy to unite by its own free will, without having to be subjugated by a vicious clone oligarchy.
What I'm saying is that an ending in which Shields truly grew as a man would have been worthy of being called "Liberation Day." |
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Post by truebeliever on Mar 6, 2016 9:51:09 GMT -8
Sorry, I realized I put this in the wrong forum. Perhaps a mod could move this to Discussion.
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Post by Drath on Mar 6, 2016 10:03:42 GMT -8
Claude doesn't outgrow anything, but, you know -- boobs and comic relief.)
Well Claude obviously outgrew her bra  Sorry couldn't resist... it's an eroge VN anyway right xD But yea on a more serious note I completely agree with your views. I'd have Ava disobey orders for the first time, to come back for Kayto. And yea if they could make one special Tactical Paradox torpedo, they must have the blueprints and should be able to make another. |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 6, 2016 13:00:18 GMT -8
Actually, from the scene, I though that when the Admiral said his last words he wasn't talking to Shields, but rather giving his last orders to his fleet (given how everyone always seems to give order on the fly, a miniaturized transmitter makes sense) to take out Fontana, the "prototypes" and his likely troops on the surface. Or at least, that the situation was catastrophic enough that the next in command would automatically fire them once they knew what was going on (when Kryska talked about backup insurance she was talking about the battle of Cera too; at this moment the Admiral orders were clear) Thus I always assumed, together with Kayto's speech at his last moments, that the threat was imminent; the Alliance was just waiting on evacuating everything they could before firing, or maybe they had to prepare it very well in order to not get caught.
The PACT troops were probably there just to destroy the Sunrider, given that they don't know about the Paradox core Warheads and Fontana probably wants to salvage the situation the most he could and avoid war with the Alliance. If they really weren't going to fire, then, yes, it seems kinda silly going out like that.
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Post by saotomefirst on Mar 6, 2016 18:37:04 GMT -8
I see things a bit differently from the opener... I won't bother discussing about the way the story went - even because it's been written already, and we can't change it, right? With that said, I can totally understand Shields' move to stop the Paradox Core warhead, and the crew's support on his decisions. If the core was fired, all they've done until this day would have been for nothing. They simply couldn't just let that happen, not without doing something about it. But I have to say, it's not over yet. I do envision the last part of that scene more or less like this: The Core is fired right before Shields' eyes, and immediately after the Alliance fleet perform an orderly warp out of the system - maybe the Machiavelli Actual warps just seconds away from being hit, shaking the Sunrider?. As for PACT, Fontana would find this move strange - no matter how mad he is about the situation, he is no idiot; if the Alliance left in such a hurry after firing that weapon, it can't be good. I can almost see a mission where a damaged Sunrider without Saviors has a limited amount of time to walk through the map collecting life pods while making a run for it to the right edge of the map and while fighting some PACT ships along the way, but that would be pushing it too hard... They would be able to escape somehow - hard to tell exactly how, given the current condition of the ship and the fact that they don't have a miraculous chief engineer anymore, but they would. PACT ships would also get out, although they might lose quite a few ships due to the delay in retreating from Cera's gravity well... The question is, what then? Pretty much like the first time they left Cera, there's no immediate place to go to. Right now, the Neutral Rim is entirely aligned with the Solar Alliance, and what's left of the galaxy is PACT. There's no immediate place for them to seek shelter, repairs, munitions - I believe not even Sophita would bother returning their calls, since the Solar Alliance is Tydaria's exclusive trading partner right now. I believe there's little hope for them in this scenario other than becoming pirates. Pirate havens would be the only places where neither of the two biggest forces of the galaxy would have influence on. Yes, Fontana and Cossete worked together in the past but if she is still alive they are in no position to contact each other again. Maybe they could start preying on Alliance/PACT military convoys for supplies/cash/influence/etc. This could lead to some interesting new ship to hire. Imagine, for example, the Sunrider leading a pirate fleet with some destroyers and cruisers? Also, there's space to interact with Cossete - provided she's still alive. Maybe if she "likes" you she'll make your life easier than if she doesn't? This would be ironical, since there was that other Ceran crew in MoA that was caught with pirates. Maybe their new life will be affected by that decision? In any case, as you can see, there is a path ahead. I'm 100% sure this is not how the story will progress, but the fact I can see a way out means they can see a way out too. We will still hear from the Sunrider and its crew  |
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Post by Histidine on Mar 7, 2016 3:54:56 GMT -8
But what of the crew? Why would they agree to go along with an obviously suicidal and pointless mission? Taking on Machiavelli Actual makes no sense: It's not certain that the Core missile is going to be used on Cera at that point anyway. (Kryska herself said the Alliance just had it as backup insurance.)And, in any case, destroying MA doesn't resolve matters at all. The Alliance will just make more Core missiles and be back to terrorize the Neutral Rim; Shields and his crew will have died for nothing.
1) As Marx indicated: The scenario the TPW was readied to insure against has already come, at least from the view of the Alliance commanders. Grey specifically ordered its use, and the display in the final CG clearly shows the TPW is armed. The weapon is not "not certain [it's] going to be used," it is actively in the process of being used.
2) Sure, the Alliance most likely has more TPWs even if they lose this one. But the reductio ad absurdum of this argument is that there's no point treating a sick man because he'll die in xx years anyway. Sunrider stops the one TPW they know about from evaporating Cera, then they can worry about how to deal with the rest (which at the very least aren't currently being used to blow up a planet yet). One step at a time.
3) The final engagement isn't much more of a suicide mission than several other battles the Sunrider has participated in, and at no point were the crew definitely dead until the very end*. If they hadn't missed the short-range warp, or if Machiavelli Actual's escort was even slightly thinner, the Sunrider might well have lasted long enough to kill it without needing to ram, and might even have escaped. Long odds, but Wedding Crash proved it can be done.
*And even then, Ava and crew, and possibly Icari and Kryska as well, would have survived if weren't for the no-quarter order given to the PACT fleet (and presumably the Alliance fleet as well)
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Post by truebeliever on Mar 7, 2016 6:52:40 GMT -8
Some interesting points raised; this is my take: 1. On the notion that the Core warhead was about to be used:
I guess that's what LiS was going for, but here's why I think it makes no sense. Grey was eternally complaining about the short leash the politicians in the Alliance had him on. The bleeding hearts back home were, in his mind, just waiting for the chance to accuse him of committing war crimes, being heartless to children, etc.
So the Alliance clearly has fairly powerful civilian rule; even a popular military leader like Grey can only grumble about his lot. Using a weapon like the Core warhead is not something a theater commander can do on his own without repercussions.
Consider how much of a headache Ongess represented for Grey, and then consider how much more of a headache the military would face if they used a weapon of mass destruction to wipe out not only a PACT fleet, but also the just-liberated civilian neutral world of Cera and all its inhabitants. Remember that the Alliance is clearly hoping to sway the Neutral Rim to its side with its plans for humanitarian aid; it can kiss those plans goodbye if it fires the warhead.
This is not like when Grey threatened to nuke Ongess; there was a degree of plausible deniability the Alliance could have engaged in there, as in, "Oh, we accidentally set off the fuel while we were fighting PACT." But there's no plausible deniability in the excuse that, "Oh, we accidentally secretly developed a weapon of mass destruction from the Paradox Core we destroyed, and then we accidentally fired it at a defenseless planet."
Consider what a propaganda victory this would hand PACT -- the Alliance would be exposed as a band of heartless murderers. Yes, Grey and the Alliance delegation were killed in cold blood, but using the Core warhead would be a completely disproportionate response, and the rest of the galaxy would know it. So I argue that in a realistic scenario, the military would hesitate to fire the warhead, despite any backup plans. Any officer who served under Grey would know that firing a Core warhead would mean war crimes charges later. A rational second-in-command would contact the politicians, let them know what happened, tell them the Core warhead was all set for use, and wait for orders. Passing the buck is a time-honored tradition, both for politicians and the military.
2. On the notion that the last fight wasn't a suicide mission:
When Shields told Ava this would be the last journey for the Sunrider, it's pretty clear he knew they weren't coming back. They all knew that without Chigara, they couldn't warp in close enough to Machiavelli Actual to mimic Operation Wedding Crash. So the crew knew they were on a one-way trip. That was why Cosette called the bridge; she knew about the situation because the crew was freaking out below decks. Yes, the Sunrider had faced long odds before, but then there was at least a chance of surviving if the player played well. None in this case.
3. On the notion that even if the Alliance had more warheads, the Sunrider had to take things one step at a time:
Taking things one step at a time implies being able to take more than one step. If the captain and crew knew going in that they weren't coming back, then that eliminates any chance of addressing the other warheads. If taking out Machiavelli Actual offers no hope of solving your problems once and for all, then sacrificing your life represents a very poor cost/benefit ratio. It's all risk and no reward.
The one scenario in which an attack on Machiavelli Actual would have made sense is if the Sunrider had tried to board the ship and seize the Core warhead for itself. Then Shields could have threatened to destroy both the Alliance and PACT fleets if they didn't clear out, and Cera would have won de facto liberation, perhaps becoming a viable alternative for the galaxy to the Alliance/PACT divide. That would arguably have been worth the attempt, but instead, the crew ended up riding to its doom.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 7, 2016 15:12:46 GMT -8
I think trying to board a Battleship twice your size and with a crew likely 3 times your size with your exhausted and wounded crew is more of a suicide than the mission itself....
And I completely disagree on the first point. The reason why the Admiral hesitated at Ongess was because he was running for the election, not because he could be prosecuted or doubted afterwards. And the Paradox Core was clearly there and armed, meaning there were provision on how it was to be used. Nobody will "contact the politicians" to ask for permission to use a superbomb they have already there with the idea of using it in a series of cases. That would be like saying that the B-29 had to wait for presidential permission before bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki; the presidential and civilian permission has already been given, that's the reason why it's there in the first place. Given what Kryska says, it was to be used in the worst case losing Cera in order to eliminate PACT's threat... which is exactly what happens at the end. The Alliance fleet high command is completely slaughtered, and if Fontana would to follow with an attack on their Combined fleet, it would be completely wiped out, taken by surprise and without Leadership, leaving both victory in PACT hands and the Alliance open to them.
And on your third point, I think Kayto's entire speech is precisely about Cera, not about destroying the Paradox core. While it's not like he wants the Paradox Core warheads used, in this case what he wants is to protect Cera... and thus seek redemption for the time he lost Maray. While the idea of the Liberation Day as "being freed of Cera" is in a way nice, I think it missed the point that half of the captain's motivation always was the loss of Maray. His last words are actually not for Chigara, but for his sister, this shows simply how much important she was to him. And thus, destroying that warhead is not destroying the Paradox core, but actually saving Cera, a way of trying to convey to his sister that this time he won't fail her.
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Post by truebeliever on Mar 7, 2016 16:08:45 GMT -8
I think this is where the scenario fails to make sense. We've already seen that there are elements in the civilian Alliance government that are distrustful of Grey and using what happened on Ongess to discredit him. I find it truly hard to believe that they're going to just give him a Core missile and carte blanche to fire it when he pleases. It's not like the Enola Gay bombing Japan at all. It's more like Douglas MacArthur calling for dropping the A-bomb on China during the Korean War -- and getting fired by President Truman as a result.
When you have a powerful weapon of mass destruction, if you're a halfway responsible country, you put its use under a chain of command, with numerous checks. It's the same with U.S. nuclear subs today. Yes, they're operating under conditional orders at sea; they're backup insurance in case there's a nuclear war. But there are multiple checks and procedures to prevent a rogue sub commander from deciding to fire his missiles one day on a whim.
But if that isn't convincing, let's look at what the actual situation was at the end of Liberation Day. Yes, Grey and the Alliance diplomats were wiped out, but the proportionate response wasn't to immediately fire the Core missile; the proportionate response was what the Alliance eventually ended up doing, namely authorizing a push beyond the Neutral Rim. They didn't indiscriminately start firing off Core missiles right and left.
And remember that the Sunrider didn't warp all that close to Machiavelli Actual. It came out 900,000 km away, and was picked up by Alliance sensors and waves of ships that immediately engaged it. If the Alliance was really just about to fire the Core missile, then the Sunrider attacking it should have triggered that very event. Machiavelli Actual should have fired the missile, the Alliance fleet should have warped out, and the Sunrider should have been left vaporized. The very fact that the Sunrider was able to get close enough to crash into it after a lengthy approach without that happening is the best possible evidence that Cera was not, in fact, about to get destroyed and that the Sunrider ended up wrecking itself for nothing.
As far as boarding Machiavelli Actual goes, remember that a head-on attack isn't the only option. Kryska was pointing her gun at Shields before she was eventually won over to his side by Icari. Now imagine that Kryska, now back in the Sunrider fold, reports to Grey's second-in-command that she's arrested Shields, the mastermind behind Grey's assassination by Chigara, and that she's ready to bring him in for questioning. She was helped in his apprehension by the mercenary Icari, who's known to the Alliance brass because she did Grey's dirty work in the past. They get met by Alliance officers, who transport the three to Machiavelli Actual to be interrogated. While Shields is getting waterboarded, Icari and Kryska have the walk of the ship. From there, Icari can work her tricks on the ship's security and sensor systems while Kryska can take the ship's captain hostage; that's when the Sunrider warps in and starts kicking up trouble. Amid the confusion, the Sunrider's ryders bust into the ship and spirit away the Core missile, which Icari will have conveniently located while she was hacking the ship. Problem solved, no one needs to die, and Cera is saved in actual fact, instead of just in Shields' head. |
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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 7, 2016 23:06:15 GMT -8
I don't know if someone made this joke because I didn't read any spoilers in this thread, but: Most of the Cerans got liberated of their lives; presumably if not by PACT attacks/suppression, then by the battle that started thereafter.
So, I mean, it was A Liberation Day, but mostly just from the surly bonds of this galaxy. |
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Post by Nemjen on Mar 8, 2016 0:31:12 GMT -8
*Adds the title of worstplot to worstwaifu 's collection of identities. |
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Post by Drath on Mar 8, 2016 1:02:39 GMT -8
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Post by noobrage on Mar 8, 2016 1:44:05 GMT -8
Guys, please don't forget that, in the game's universe, warp does not (should not, at least) work when the ship is under strong influence from a planet's gravity well. That's probably the reason the Sunrider's warp drive breaks down after the short range jump to Machiavelli Actual, and I would assume that it wouldn't be able to make a long range warp at all, or that, should that be attempted, it would be an incredibly innaccurate jump just like the short range jump that would break the warp drive and probably leave the Sunrider stuck in the middle of deep space; an effective death sentence. That means two things:
1-There's no way out for the Sunrider
2-The Alliance can't fire the Paradox Warhead right away without sinking the Combined Fleet alongside the PACT Fleet
So yeah, Kayto has three choices in the end: going out on a blaze of glory, attempting a long range jump that's basically a death sentence or trying to push through the PACT and Alliance fleets and then jumping away. And seeing as the Sunrider didn't manage to survive it's approach to Machiavelli Actual after the short range warp, option 3 is suicidal. |
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Post by saotomefirst on Mar 8, 2016 11:05:17 GMT -8
Guys, please don't forget that, in the game's universe, warp does not (should not, at least) work when the ship is under strong influence from a planet's gravity well. That's probably the reason the Sunrider's warp drive breaks down after the short range jump to Machiavelli Actual, and I would assume that it wouldn't be able to make a long range warp at all, or that, should that be attempted, it would be an incredibly innaccurate jump just like the short range jump that would break the warp drive and probably leave the Sunrider stuck in the middle of deep space; an effective death sentence. That means two things:
1-There's no way out for the Sunrider
2-The Alliance can't fire the Paradox Warhead right away without sinking the Combined Fleet alongside the PACT Fleet
So yeah, Kayto has three choices in the end: going out on a blaze of glory, attempting a long range jump that's basically a death sentence or trying to push through the PACT and Alliance fleets and then jumping away. And seeing as the Sunrider didn't manage to survive it's approach to Machiavelli Actual after the short range warp, option 3 is suicidal. You really haven't been paying attention to the series, have you? The reason behind having to leave a strong gravity well before jumping away is merely precision - at least when it comes down to military ships. Remember after mission one back in First Arrival - the one with 2 PACT frigates only - that's exactly what they did, and they are just fine! Yes, they didn't get to their fallback coordinates in one jump, but they made it there later on. If the Paradox Weapon were fired right now, even PACT forces close to the planet would be able to survive, provided they can spool up their drives fast enough. they would just be disorganized. The reason behind last mission's warp was so crappy is because they lost Chigara, which was pretty much the reason they had that beautiful, precise landing right in front of the enemy fleet every time since the Mnemosyne Abyss. That's also why they can't perform Short Range Warps anymore. Sunrider should still be able to make one last emergency warp to get out of range of the Paradox blast. However, for that to happen, lots of things have to go right. For example, he'd have to miss that collision with the Machiavelli Actual for some reason. I theorized in another post that it could happen if the Paradox weapon were fired immediately after the scene, and moments after the Combined Fleet would perform an emergency warp out of Cera. How about the crew? Shields wouldn't leave them behind to save himself, but the ship is in no shape to face a single frigate to save them, much less the core of Fontana's fleet. Maybe they'll be in too much of a a hurry to leave to system to even bother killing the Sunrider's crew in their life boats? I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 8, 2016 15:09:19 GMT -8
I think it's you who are not paying that much attention. While Emergency Warps have been done sometimes, it was never in a grvity well, lack of precision is seriously harmful. In Samu-kun's words:
"Warping with nearby heavy gravity is not recommended, as the drive out point becomes more and more inaccurate. If your initial jump angle is off by even a fraction, the huge distance that you travel in a straight line during the jump could mean that you drive out hundreds of light years away from where you intended, possibly in enemy territory, or even inside a planet or a star. The time compensation also becomes inaccurate, so the jump could take longer than expected to an outside observer. A week long jump in ship time could have taken one month of regular time, leading to obvious logistical problems when you arrive at your destination behind schedule. FYI, you can only arrive behind schedule because of an inaccurate jump. It's impossible to accidentally arrive before you left.”
If it was that easy Grey's fleet at Ongess could have warped away from the attack easily, they had more than enough time. The same with the Sunrider and Agemmemon escaping from Versta (and at Versta they had their chief engineer, just not the data from the Seraphim) and basically everywhere, including Ryuvia; even after destroying the BBs and having short range warp available they had to still reach the moon. Even spooling the Warp itself can take time sometimes (first battle at Helion). The warp at the beginning was when they had already been fighting for a while in an undetermined location; considering most fights happen far from the planet and the gravity well and that the Sunrider was not far from where the Legion had just warped in, i think their position should be pretty obvious.
The Alliance or PACT fleet can't simply warp out of there in so few time. And that's not counting the personnel they still have on ground. Heck, why would even be the Machiaveli Actual, the flagship of Grey so far away from the planet when its captain is precisely on the planet if not to fire the torpedo and warp out?
And you have to look at the situation from the Alliance point of view. Being betrayed by PACT, their fleet would be taken by surprise and without leadership; the entire Combined Fleet with its 1500 ships would be decimated. This is basically deciding the war, and the main reason why Grey was given the Paradox Core warhead, to avoid the Combined Fleets destruction, either by Alice or Fontana. The loss of a planet may hurt, but losing the war and opening the core planets to an invasion would be hundred of times worse. This is very different from Mc Arthur stupidity, because this maybe on Korea, but instead of 300.000 soldiers and fighting against China you're fighting against the USSR and have 3.000.000 soldiers and the entire Pacific Fleet who've just been trapped and with all their generals slaughtered. Yes, bombing Korea will be bad PR, but that's better than losing the entire Pacific and opening Hawaii, Alaska and even Los Angeles to a Soviet Invasion. |
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Post by truebeliever on Mar 8, 2016 18:59:42 GMT -8
I've been giving this thread some thought this evening, and I think my initial uneasiness about being out of bounds was likely correct.
I realize many people have complained about a number of things in Liberation Day, but, for myself, the straw that broke the camel's back was the ending, an ending no beta tester saw or had the chance to criticize. I honestly think nearly every other issue raised by players would have been overlooked had the ending gone differently. But my conviction doesn't change the fact that Liberation Day's future isn't mine to decide.
Love in Space is a business, and their move to put out Version 2.00 is a business decision prompted by the outcry on release. Of course, LiS wants to make money and create something people will enjoy.
But before any of that, I imagine they started this series because they thought it would be cool, because they had a dream, because they wanted to do great work. I respect that. Whether the series succeeds or falls shouldn't be the result of my complaints or those of others, but because of the decisions Love in Space chooses, on their own. A number of players have complained bitterly about how much they resent having been railroaded by the game into making choices they didn't want; surely the same thing applies to LiS.
Yes, the project got started with crowdfunded money, but in the end, Love in Space deserves to rise or fall based on their free will and not because they were hounded down a path by backers and players. If they have a vision for the game, then they ought to have the freedom to pursue it as they want, whether it leads to success or failure, and whether it coincides with some Platonic ideal for what a Sunrider game ought to be. For myself, I think it's a good chance to take stock and realize that I have no business trying to tell someone else what their dream ought to be. I apologize for my thoughtlessness.
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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 8, 2016 22:33:37 GMT -8
I disagree, but only because I feel that the creative input and criticism of fans is important to a project, even if you ignore most of it.
If you can't survive your worst fans, after all, you cannot survive your nicest critics.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 9, 2016 0:14:11 GMT -8
Having actually found the ending good (if you read between lines and take out the "twist"; of course, adding a little a hope would have been better at the epilogue, but I don't think it's as hopeless as everyone thinks), I can agree with both of the posts above. In all cases, criticism should always be welcome. Sometimes, you get too much ahead in your plans and really need a slap in the face to make you cool your head and reconsider things that you thought you know.
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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 9, 2016 0:48:06 GMT -8
I actually very much enjoyed the last stand part of the ending. I blame movies and video games, but if I got a choice in how to die, it'd be old, grey, and surrounded by comrades who died fighting along side me for a good cause.
I also like that Cosette books it out of there. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 9, 2016 11:50:16 GMT -8
I think it's you who are not paying that much attention. While Emergency Warps have been done sometimes, it was never in a grvity well, lack of precision is seriously harmful. In Samu-kun's words:
"Warping with nearby heavy gravity is not recommended, as the drive out point becomes more and more inaccurate. If your initial jump angle is off by even a fraction, the huge distance that you travel in a straight line during the jump could mean that you drive out hundreds of light years away from where you intended, possibly in enemy territory, or even inside a planet or a star. The time compensation also becomes inaccurate, so the jump could take longer than expected to an outside observer. A week long jump in ship time could have taken one month of regular time, leading to obvious logistical problems when you arrive at your destination behind schedule. FYI, you can only arrive behind schedule because of an inaccurate jump. It's impossible to accidentally arrive before you left.”
If it was that easy Grey's fleet at Ongess could have warped away from the attack easily, they had more than enough time. The same with the Sunrider and Agemmemon escaping from Versta (and at Versta they had their chief engineer, just not the data from the Seraphim) and basically everywhere, including Ryuvia; even after destroying the BBs and having short range warp available they had to still reach the moon. Even spooling the Warp itself can take time sometimes (first battle at Helion). The warp at the beginning was when they had already been fighting for a while in an undetermined location; considering most fights happen far from the planet and the gravity well and that the Sunrider was not far from where the Legion had just warped in, i think their position should be pretty obvious.
The Alliance or PACT fleet can't simply warp out of there in so few time. And that's not counting the personnel they still have on ground. Heck, why would even be the Machiaveli Actual, the flagship of Grey so far away from the planet when its captain is precisely on the planet if not to fire the torpedo and warp out?
And you have to look at the situation from the Alliance point of view. Being betrayed by PACT, their fleet would be taken by surprise and without leadership; the entire Combined Fleet with its 1500 ships would be decimated. This is basically deciding the war, and the main reason why Grey was given the Paradox Core warhead, to avoid the Combined Fleets destruction, either by Alice or Fontana. The loss of a planet may hurt, but losing the war and opening the core planets to an invasion would be hundred of times worse. This is very different from Mc Arthur stupidity, because this maybe on Korea, but instead of 300.000 soldiers and fighting against China you're fighting against the USSR and have 3.000.000 soldiers and the entire Pacific Fleet who've just been trapped and with all their generals slaughtered. Yes, bombing Korea will be bad PR, but that's better than losing the entire Pacific and opening Hawaii, Alaska and even Los Angeles to a Soviet Invasion. I feel compelled to point out that the bit about Ongess is kind of a complete mistake - the majority of the Combined Fleet was docked to fuel-stations and scaffolds. He couldn't have jumped out either way because the majority of the fleet was inactive, which was the whole reason they were forced to play defensive against Fontana and Cosette. Same for Versta - the Agamemnon didn't have Chigara and, being a civilian liner, it's warp-drive wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as the Sunrider's. Slingshotting around the moon at Ryuvia was so that they could make a PRECISION jump to a safe system - if they tried a random jump with the issues of a Gravity Well, they could have ended up crashing into a star or shooting into PACT space instead of Alliance, but the point is that it didn't mean they couldn't jump; just that it's risky and not the recommended first choice if you can help it.
So, by all accounts... yes. Yes the Alliance and PACT fleets COULD simply warp out of there that quickly - it would simply be disorganized and uncoordinated, with a high chance of ending up god-knows-where. But then again, even that's arguably better then being caught in the event horizon of a black hole as it devours a planet. Another thing - they only acted that way after Gray was dead. For all we know, they would have approached the planet to recover Gray had he survived. And it probably held position like that so that the rest of the fleet could have it's chance to warp out. Most of the troops on Cera were PACT and Alice/Chigara's actions pretty much wiped out the Alliance forces. Hell, getting as much of the fleet warped out as possible was probably the ONLY reason they didn't immediately fire the missile. PACT taking advantage of that delay to evacuate as many of their own as possible could explain why they didn't just up and flee randomly either - both sides had reasons not to immediately jump out even if they could when you think about it.
But you're again missing his point - namely that if the entire Alliance Military leadership is there, it doesn't make sense to give the trigger to just one man out of all of them. Especially not the one with the proven hothead streak. And I point out that Gray was willing to blow the Combined Fleet away before at Ongess to secure victory - blowing that world up would have had similar effects. This is, for all intents and purposes, Ongess all over again. Gray's proven that he'd rather everyone lose if he/the Alliance can't win, so that is pretty close to McArthur stupidity. |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 9, 2016 14:35:45 GMT -8
I feel compelled to point out that the bit about Ongess is kind of a complete mistake - the majority of the Combined Fleet was docked to fuel-stations and scaffolds. He couldn't have jumped out either way because the majority of the fleet was inactive, which was the whole reason they were forced to play defensive against Fontana and Cosette. Same for Versta - the Agamemnon didn't have Chigara and, being a civilian liner, it's warp-drive wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as the Sunrider's. Slingshotting around the moon at Ryuvia was so that they could make a PRECISION jump to a safe system - if they tried a random jump with the issues of a Gravity Well, they could have ended up crashing into a star or shooting into PACT space instead of Alliance, but the point is that it didn't mean they couldn't jump; just that it's risky and not the recommended first choice if you can help it.
So, by all accounts... yes. Yes the Alliance and PACT fleets COULD simply warp out of there that quickly - it would simply be disorganized and uncoordinated, with a high chance of ending up god-knows-where. But then again, even that's arguably better then being caught in the event horizon of a black hole as it devours a planet. Another thing - they only acted that way after Gray was dead. For all we know, they would have approached the planet to recover Gray had he survived. And it probably held position like that so that the rest of the fleet could have it's chance to warp out. Most of the troops on Cera were PACT and Alice/Chigara's actions pretty much wiped out the Alliance forces. Hell, getting as much of the fleet warped out as possible was probably the ONLY reason they didn't immediately fire the missile. PACT taking advantage of that delay to evacuate as many of their own as possible could explain why they didn't just up and flee randomly either - both sides had reasons not to immediately jump out even if they could when you think about it.
But you're again missing his point - namely that if the entire Alliance Military leadership is there, it doesn't make sense to give the trigger to just one man out of all of them. Especially not the one with the proven hothead streak. And I point out that Gray was willing to blow the Combined Fleet away before at Ongess to secure victory - blowing that world up would have had similar effects. This is, for all intents and purposes, Ongess all over again. Gray's proven that he'd rather everyone lose if he/the Alliance can't win, so that is pretty close to McArthur stupidity. The combined Fleet was docked and refueling... during the first barrage. The entire reason Grey could even make the "bluff" is because they precisely had time. After the first barrage Cosette Ryders had to take their sweet time reloading; if warping was so easy as simply spooling the warp and going then it was more than enough time to salvage the rest of the fleet is warping was so simple as *warp*. Or that was what I was going to say until i found a post by Samu-kun specifically denying they can warp. You're right on that. But even forgetting that, at Versta the Agemmeon didn't have the same warp engine as the Sunrider... except that it was a diplomatic ship in a foreign mission and that here we're talking about Alliance Fleet, most of which is specifically mentioned as being composed of old Cruisers who were actually on reserve and unmanned until the war. And at Ryuvia Prime, the Sunrider was surrounded by 300 ships and the Legion itself. Everywhere on the Neutral Rim was safer than there. If they could simply warp out and wait for the cool-down time and simply warp again, it would do it. Heck, Samu-kun even had to go out of his way to tell that a moon gravity well is small enough to jump. So, by all accounts... no, you can't simply warp out in a planet's gravity well. It's not only that it isn't sure, is that it messes with time and space; not only there's a non-negligible danger of outright dying, but there is also one of appearing far ahead of your supply chains, with the travel needing a lot more than it was supposed to take, and starve in space. Or appear isolated on PACT space and be destroyed by a simple frigate because you're a lone shield Cruiser o logistics ship. And then there's the time it takes to spool the warp drive; the Sunrider already had one of the more advanced versions, with the Seraphim data and a super-human chief engineer, and it still took precious seconds and even various minutes depending on the plot. Not only that, the Paradox Core specifically generates a micro-black hole; all the ships would need to warp out just after firing it, once it detonates then it would surely mess with everything. For the Alliance it would take considerable time only coordinating warping out even inside the gravity well, and for PACT (who knows nothing of the warhead) it would be impossible If you don't have enough, I can give a quote by Samu-kun and the link where he said it: "Ships can barely warp out of a planet's gravity well, so warping out in a black hole's gravity well's even worse. Ships have to clear gravity wells to various degrees depending on how expensive their warp drive is before they can jump to warp." We're not talking about shiny Assault Carriers, but thousands of ships of all classes with various ages and all of them mass-produced. Their warp drives are not the most advanced or expensive. For the rest, I don't disagree? it's obvious that if Grey had survived he would have been recovered, the entire reason he gave the order from the beginning is that he was dying. And holding position like that, it's obvious he was waiting for the rest of the fleet to warp out; however, if it was only doing that was there need to do it so far away from Cera. More chance for the rocket to be intercepted that way, or helping evacuation the ground (no, I don't believe the entire alliance forces on cera were the important officers and diplomats attending the ceremony; even if only to avoid giving PACT total control over it, it's pretty clear the Admirad distrusted Fontana). And, sorry, but Grey is the most respected military man in the Alliance and a presidential candidate, either with a considerable advantage over its competitor or barely behind depending on what you did at Ongess. The Solar congress is divided between progressives and Universalists, and Grey controls the Universalists and then the entire military. It's not that the civilian leadership lets him; is that it can't not let him. He is not Trump, no matter what he looks from our point of view. You seem to continue both overestimating a single world and underestimating the Combined Fleet. The Alliance has a hundred of core world even more populated than Cera, and the Combined Fleet are 1500 ships. Do you really think any country of this world, no matter the civilian control or anything, would doubt to nuke a city of 300.000 habitants in order to avoid losing a third of their entire army (and their most well equipped and veteran third) and open their metropolis to an invasion? Specially when no one else will say anything? Is not that the Admiral is doing the same at Ongess, is that the civilian government would do the same. Remember: "After Far Port, a substantial portion of the Alliance population lost interest in the war, as it became a distant fight in the Neutral Rim against a faraway totalitarian state, rather than a war for survival." Ongess would have been actually worse, because it would blow up the Ongessite deposits and make fuel a lot more expensive and hard to get. But Cera? A lone world in the furthest part of the Neutral Rim? Sure, most civilians would thing "how sad" and officially the government would pay reparations and all, but nothing else. People would even forgive Grey because he died in the incident. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 9, 2016 16:02:51 GMT -8
I feel compelled to point out that the bit about Ongess is kind of a complete mistake - the majority of the Combined Fleet was docked to fuel-stations and scaffolds. He couldn't have jumped out either way because the majority of the fleet was inactive, which was the whole reason they were forced to play defensive against Fontana and Cosette. Same for Versta - the Agamemnon didn't have Chigara and, being a civilian liner, it's warp-drive wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as the Sunrider's. Slingshotting around the moon at Ryuvia was so that they could make a PRECISION jump to a safe system - if they tried a random jump with the issues of a Gravity Well, they could have ended up crashing into a star or shooting into PACT space instead of Alliance, but the point is that it didn't mean they couldn't jump; just that it's risky and not the recommended first choice if you can help it.
So, by all accounts... yes. Yes the Alliance and PACT fleets COULD simply warp out of there that quickly - it would simply be disorganized and uncoordinated, with a high chance of ending up god-knows-where. But then again, even that's arguably better then being caught in the event horizon of a black hole as it devours a planet. Another thing - they only acted that way after Gray was dead. For all we know, they would have approached the planet to recover Gray had he survived. And it probably held position like that so that the rest of the fleet could have it's chance to warp out. Most of the troops on Cera were PACT and Alice/Chigara's actions pretty much wiped out the Alliance forces. Hell, getting as much of the fleet warped out as possible was probably the ONLY reason they didn't immediately fire the missile. PACT taking advantage of that delay to evacuate as many of their own as possible could explain why they didn't just up and flee randomly either - both sides had reasons not to immediately jump out even if they could when you think about it.
But you're again missing his point - namely that if the entire Alliance Military leadership is there, it doesn't make sense to give the trigger to just one man out of all of them. Especially not the one with the proven hothead streak. And I point out that Gray was willing to blow the Combined Fleet away before at Ongess to secure victory - blowing that world up would have had similar effects. This is, for all intents and purposes, Ongess all over again. Gray's proven that he'd rather everyone lose if he/the Alliance can't win, so that is pretty close to McArthur stupidity. The combined Fleet was docked and refueling... during the first barrage. The entire reason Grey could even make the "bluff" is because they precisely had time. After the first barrage Cosette Ryders had to take their sweet time reloading; if warping was so easy as simply spooling the warp and going then it was more than enough time to salvage the rest of the fleet is warping was so simple as *warp*. Or that was what I was going to say until i found a post by Samu-kun specifically denying they can warp. You're right on that. But even forgetting that, at Versta the Agemmeon didn't have the same warp engine as the Sunrider... except that it was a diplomatic ship in a foreign mission and that here we're talking about Alliance Fleet, most of which is specifically mentioned as being composed of old Cruisers who were actually on reserve and unmanned until the war. And at Ryuvia Prime, the Sunrider was surrounded by 300 ships and the Legion itself. Everywhere on the Neutral Rim was safer than there. If they could simply warp out and wait for the cool-down time and simply warp again, it would do it. Heck, Samu-kun even had to go out of his way to tell that a moon gravity well is small enough to jump. So, by all accounts... no, you can't simply warp out in a planet's gravity well. It's not only that it isn't sure, is that it messes with time and space; not only there's a non-negligible danger of outright dying, but there is also one of appearing far ahead of your supply chains, with the travel needing a lot more than it was supposed to take, and starve in space. Or appear isolated on PACT space and be destroyed by a simple frigate because you're a lone shield Cruiser o logistics ship. And then there's the time it takes to spool the warp drive; the Sunrider already had one of the more advanced versions, with the Seraphim data and a super-human chief engineer, and it still took precious seconds and even various minutes depending on the plot. Not only that, the Paradox Core specifically generates a micro-black hole; all the ships would need to warp out just after firing it, once it detonates then it would surely mess with everything. For the Alliance it would take considerable time only coordinating warping out even inside the gravity well, and for PACT (who knows nothing of the warhead) it would be impossible If you don't have enough, I can give a quote by Samu-kun and the link where he said it: "Ships can barely warp out of a planet's gravity well, so warping out in a black hole's gravity well's even worse. Ships have to clear gravity wells to various degrees depending on how expensive their warp drive is before they can jump to warp." We're not talking about shiny Assault Carriers, but thousands of ships of all classes with various ages and all of them mass-produced. Their warp drives are not the most advanced or expensive. For the rest, I don't disagree? it's obvious that if Grey had survived he would have been recovered, the entire reason he gave the order from the beginning is that he was dying. And holding position like that, it's obvious he was waiting for the rest of the fleet to warp out; however, if it was only doing that was there need to do it so far away from Cera. More chance for the rocket to be intercepted that way, or helping evacuation the ground (no, I don't believe the entire alliance forces on cera were the important officers and diplomats attending the ceremony; even if only to avoid giving PACT total control over it, it's pretty clear the Admirad distrusted Fontana). And, sorry, but Grey is the most respected military man in the Alliance and a presidential candidate, either with a considerable advantage over its competitor or barely behind depending on what you did at Ongess. The Solar congress is divided between progressives and Universalists, and Grey controls the Universalists and then the entire military. It's not that the civilian leadership lets him; is that it can't not let him. He is not Trump, no matter what he looks from our point of view. You seem to continue both overestimating a single world and underestimating the Combined Fleet. The Alliance has a hundred of core world even more populated than Cera, and the Combined Fleet are 1500 ships. Do you really think any country of this world, no matter the civilian control or anything, would doubt to nuke a city of 300.000 habitants in order to avoid losing a third of their entire army (and their most well equipped and veteran third) and open their metropolis to an invasion? Specially when no one else will say anything? Is not that the Admiral is doing the same at Ongess, is that the civilian government would do the same. Remember: "After Far Port, a substantial portion of the Alliance population lost interest in the war, as it became a distant fight in the Neutral Rim against a faraway totalitarian state, rather than a war for survival." Ongess would have been actually worse, because it would blow up the Ongessite deposits and make fuel a lot more expensive and hard to get. But Cera? A lone world in the furthest part of the Neutral Rim? Sure, most civilians would thing "how sad" and officially the government would pay reparations and all, but nothing else. People would even forgive Grey because he died in the incident. Christ, you wrote a lot. You know how sore my hands are from typing out a response to all that? First off... I should point out tha the Agamemnon was a LOCAL LINER that they procured for the express purpose of evacuating Versta's children. And if you try to say "but the Alliance would have provided them with a ship" - keep in mind the Alliance Military didn't expect or want those diplomats leaving Versta. Point being that the Agamemnon/Versta really doesn't count as a representation for Alliance military vessels for emergency warp capability. And at Ryuvia Prime - no, not "everywhere" was safer then there. Not Cera, not Diode, not New Eden or any of the many, many PACT worlds in Neutral Space they might have accidentally warped to... you know, provided they didn't just warp straight into a star. If faced with risks like that, then no I don't think they would just do it - not unless it was to get away from something instantaneously unsurvivable (like, again, the event horizon of a black hole ripping apart a planet). SO, again, I restate - by all accounts, yes you CAN simply warp out in a planet's gravity well. It's just so risky that it's not something you wanna try unless you either don't care where you end up or the damage you might cause to your ship, or are simply too desperate to care. "Non-negligible danger" is still preferable to "certain death by black hole", as is appearing ahead of your supply chains. And it's not like they need to go back to Solaris - just far enough to be out-of-system. But this wasn't even the point I was making - I pointed out that coordinating the Combined Fleet to jump out in unison so as not to risk anyone else was probably why the "Paradox Missile" wasn't fired the moment Gray gave the order; they weren't going to randomly jump out either way. My point was simply that it WAS possible for them to (randomly jump away) if they'd chosen to - it just was risky as all hell (though not risker then trying to survive that missile). But I digress. Regarding the ships, though - again, I think that might just have been more to ensure the Combined Fleet had a nice, sizable window of jump-out time between launching the missile and the actual detonation. And that's even assuming the missile NEEDED to hit Cera as opposed to simply open the black hole close enough to rip Cera out of orbit - depending on how big it was, it could have opened relatively close to where the fleet was and still would have been close enough to devastate Cera and everything there. Presidential CANDIDATE. He leads their military but, until he's in office (and he never will be now it seems), Gray doesn't truly speak for the Alliance - he's not even the sole figure in their military. Only a stand-alone sovereign or dictator, like Arcadius, would ever have the authority to even order the creation of such a weapon, let alone use it. It's BECAUSE he's in the military that he cannot have such singular authority to use a weapon like that - not without consenting agreement from other officials or the president of the nation he serves. I think it's that you're overestimating the amount of authority a democracy would ever give/allow one single person - it was because the civilian government knew Gray was ruthless that they did not want him in charge of the civilian parliament. Do you really think any country of this world willingly portray themselves as MONSTERS of such a scale and give their enemies ample propaganda fuel to use in uniting against them? That kind of thing is only guaranteed if you leave one man with all the power and none of the restrictions - hence why it makes no sense they would let Gray have that kind of authority. Especially not when BOTH sides (Alliance parliament and Fontana's PACT Revolutionists) were pressing for peace now. The death of Gray and the senior officers would draw attention to Cera - It wouldn't be "nothing else"; The death of their 'fearless leaders' would shatter that same air of safety and show fallibility, and the detonation of the Paradox Core would make their leaders look like monsters in the public eye. Cera would be a flashpoint - hell, it already is since the Alliance was using it as justification to continue invading the Rim. Gray wasn't thinking when he used it - he cared for nothing but revenge for his death at that point - hence why, again, I don't think it make sense for one person to have that kind of authority over a WMD! I hope these comments don't get any longer - otherwise it's just going to be us throwing text-walls at one-another and ultimately getting nowhere |
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Post by KnightOfXentar on Mar 10, 2016 1:49:52 GMT -8
The combined Fleet was docked and refueling... during the first barrage. The entire reason Grey could even make the "bluff" is because they precisely had time. After the first barrage Cosette Ryders had to take their sweet time reloading; if warping was so easy as simply spooling the warp and going then it was more than enough time to salvage the rest of the fleet is warping was so simple as *warp*. Or that was what I was going to say until i found a post by Samu-kun specifically denying they can warp. You're right on that. But even forgetting that, at Versta the Agemmeon didn't have the same warp engine as the Sunrider... except that it was a diplomatic ship in a foreign mission and that here we're talking about Alliance Fleet, most of which is specifically mentioned as being composed of old Cruisers who were actually on reserve and unmanned until the war. And at Ryuvia Prime, the Sunrider was surrounded by 300 ships and the Legion itself. Everywhere on the Neutral Rim was safer than there. If they could simply warp out and wait for the cool-down time and simply warp again, it would do it. Heck, Samu-kun even had to go out of his way to tell that a moon gravity well is small enough to jump. So, by all accounts... no, you can't simply warp out in a planet's gravity well. It's not only that it isn't sure, is that it messes with time and space; not only there's a non-negligible danger of outright dying, but there is also one of appearing far ahead of your supply chains, with the travel needing a lot more than it was supposed to take, and starve in space. Or appear isolated on PACT space and be destroyed by a simple frigate because you're a lone shield Cruiser o logistics ship. And then there's the time it takes to spool the warp drive; the Sunrider already had one of the more advanced versions, with the Seraphim data and a super-human chief engineer, and it still took precious seconds and even various minutes depending on the plot. Not only that, the Paradox Core specifically generates a micro-black hole; all the ships would need to warp out just after firing it, once it detonates then it would surely mess with everything. For the Alliance it would take considerable time only coordinating warping out even inside the gravity well, and for PACT (who knows nothing of the warhead) it would be impossible If you don't have enough, I can give a quote by Samu-kun and the link where he said it: "Ships can barely warp out of a planet's gravity well, so warping out in a black hole's gravity well's even worse. Ships have to clear gravity wells to various degrees depending on how expensive their warp drive is before they can jump to warp." We're not talking about shiny Assault Carriers, but thousands of ships of all classes with various ages and all of them mass-produced. Their warp drives are not the most advanced or expensive. For the rest, I don't disagree? it's obvious that if Grey had survived he would have been recovered, the entire reason he gave the order from the beginning is that he was dying. And holding position like that, it's obvious he was waiting for the rest of the fleet to warp out; however, if it was only doing that was there need to do it so far away from Cera. More chance for the rocket to be intercepted that way, or helping evacuation the ground (no, I don't believe the entire alliance forces on cera were the important officers and diplomats attending the ceremony; even if only to avoid giving PACT total control over it, it's pretty clear the Admirad distrusted Fontana). And, sorry, but Grey is the most respected military man in the Alliance and a presidential candidate, either with a considerable advantage over its competitor or barely behind depending on what you did at Ongess. The Solar congress is divided between progressives and Universalists, and Grey controls the Universalists and then the entire military. It's not that the civilian leadership lets him; is that it can't not let him. He is not Trump, no matter what he looks from our point of view. You seem to continue both overestimating a single world and underestimating the Combined Fleet. The Alliance has a hundred of core world even more populated than Cera, and the Combined Fleet are 1500 ships. Do you really think any country of this world, no matter the civilian control or anything, would doubt to nuke a city of 300.000 habitants in order to avoid losing a third of their entire army (and their most well equipped and veteran third) and open their metropolis to an invasion? Specially when no one else will say anything? Is not that the Admiral is doing the same at Ongess, is that the civilian government would do the same. Remember: "After Far Port, a substantial portion of the Alliance population lost interest in the war, as it became a distant fight in the Neutral Rim against a faraway totalitarian state, rather than a war for survival." Ongess would have been actually worse, because it would blow up the Ongessite deposits and make fuel a lot more expensive and hard to get. But Cera? A lone world in the furthest part of the Neutral Rim? Sure, most civilians would thing "how sad" and officially the government would pay reparations and all, but nothing else. People would even forgive Grey because he died in the incident. Christ, you wrote a lot. You know how sore my hands are from typing out a response to all that? First off... I should point out tha the Agamemnon was a LOCAL LINER that they procured for the express purpose of evacuating Versta's children. And if you try to say "but the Alliance would have provided them with a ship" - keep in mind the Alliance Military didn't expect or want those diplomats leaving Versta. Point being that the Agamemnon/Versta really doesn't count as a representation for Alliance military vessels for emergency warp capability. And at Ryuvia Prime - no, not "everywhere" was safer then there. Not Cera, not Diode, not New Eden or any of the many, many PACT worlds in Neutral Space they might have accidentally warped to... you know, provided they didn't just warp straight into a star. If faced with risks like that, then no I don't think they would just do it - not unless it was to get away from something instantaneously unsurvivable (like, again, the event horizon of a black hole ripping apart a planet). SO, again, I restate - by all accounts, yes you CAN simply warp out in a planet's gravity well. It's just so risky that it's not something you wanna try unless you either don't care where you end up or the damage you might cause to your ship, or are simply too desperate to care. "Non-negligible danger" is still preferable to "certain death by black hole", as is appearing ahead of your supply chains. And it's not like they need to go back to Solaris - just far enough to be out-of-system. But this wasn't even the point I was making - I pointed out that coordinating the Combined Fleet to jump out in unison so as not to risk anyone else was probably why the "Paradox Missile" wasn't fired the moment Gray gave the order; they weren't going to randomly jump out either way. My point was simply that it WAS possible for them to (randomly jump away) if they'd chosen to - it just was risky as all hell (though not risker then trying to survive that missile). But I digress. Regarding the ships, though - again, I think that might just have been more to ensure the Combined Fleet had a nice, sizable window of jump-out time between launching the missile and the actual detonation. And that's even assuming the missile NEEDED to hit Cera as opposed to simply open the black hole close enough to rip Cera out of orbit - depending on how big it was, it could have opened relatively close to where the fleet was and still would have been close enough to devastate Cera and everything there. Presidential CANDIDATE. He leads their military but, until he's in office (and he never will be now it seems), Gray doesn't truly speak for the Alliance - he's not even the sole figure in their military. Only a stand-alone sovereign or dictator, like Arcadius, would ever have the authority to even order the creation of such a weapon, let alone use it. It's BECAUSE he's in the military that he cannot have such singular authority to use a weapon like that - not without consenting agreement from other officials or the president of the nation he serves. I think it's that you're overestimating the amount of authority a democracy would ever give/allow one single person - it was because the civilian government knew Gray was ruthless that they did not want him in charge of the civilian parliament. Do you really think any country of this world willingly portray themselves as MONSTERS of such a scale and give their enemies ample propaganda fuel to use in uniting against them? That kind of thing is only guaranteed if you leave one man with all the power and none of the restrictions - hence why it makes no sense they would let Gray have that kind of authority. Especially not when BOTH sides (Alliance parliament and Fontana's PACT Revolutionists) were pressing for peace now. The death of Gray and the senior officers would draw attention to Cera - It wouldn't be "nothing else"; The death of their 'fearless leaders' would shatter that same air of safety and show fallibility, and the detonation of the Paradox Core would make their leaders look like monsters in the public eye. Cera would be a flashpoint - hell, it already is since the Alliance was using it as justification to continue invading the Rim. Gray wasn't thinking when he used it - he cared for nothing but revenge for his death at that point - hence why, again, I don't think it make sense for one person to have that kind of authority over a WMD!  nope, you can't simply warp out of planet's gravity well. Samu-kun clearly said, that in Sunrider universe ships has to move away from gravity well to certain degree.
I bet it goes like this:
1.) if you are far enough, gravity well doesn't influence you and you are good to go
2.) jumping inside gravity well is dangerous closer you are to planet.
3.) at some point you are so close to planet that jumping is unfeasible. Either because it's so extremely dangerous (pretty much certain death) or your warp drive is simply not powerful enough and it will fail. Of course there are exceptions, when PLOT allows you make some cool manoeuvre (like speeding around moon) that will alow you to bypass limitations somehow.
^ I think rules of the universe were already set.
and as per your plan to just detonate missile wherever :
"And that's even assuming the missile NEEDED to hit Cera as opposed to simply open the black hole close enough to rip Cera out of orbit - depending on how big it was, it could have opened relatively close to where the fleet was and still would have been close enough to devastate Cera and everything there."
I don't think creating ARTIFICIAL black hole inside gravity well of a planet is an easy feat.
Just think about restarted Star Trek (2009) , where captain Nero executed revenge on Federation by destroying their planets. If he could create blackhole wherever (somewhere in space above planet?) then why did he bother to drill into earth so he could fire black hole under surface? Either artificial black hole would fail or it would not be enough to destroy planet.
There probably was some sort of "reason" behind it.
about general Grey authority:
true that general Grey was only President candidate. But still how can you confidently say, that he didnt had enough authority to create or fire black hole missile? Grey might have been simple military officer in times of peace (to change that he wished to start the war by killing those diplomats), but history has proven that during war there is no such thing as "simple general" . There were many cases of generals that authorized things that are unimaginable during peace.
Also don't forget that politics don't care about "incidents" outside of their country/space as much as things happening inside their country/space. And since Cera is at outer edges (neutral rim?) of galaxy, it is clearly out of Alliance main points of interest.
Another thing to consider is the fact, that Grey wasn't just some unimportant general. From his actions it looked like he was highest ranked general in the area (even generals have ranks, you know. One star, two stars, etc.) and that pretty much made him supreme commander of alliance forces. Such authority could be used to fire weapons of mass destruction.
hehehe
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 10, 2016 2:28:26 GMT -8
I agree we're perhaps getting too long. Sorry, can't help it, I tried to restrain myself a bit in this one.
On your first three paragraphs I'll disagree (not being able to warp inside a gravity well is basically the only thing we know about warp in Sunrider), but I agree that continuing the argument on it is meaningless.
On Grey, I think you're, again, underestimating both his power and the magnitude of the Combined Fleet. First, Grey is the candidate, and by such, the leader (or at least the one moving the strings) of the Universalists, the second most powerful party in the Solar congress. It's not like he's only military, but he controls the opposition in the Congress... to a weak president which has been publically humiliated by his total failure against PACT in every front. In contrast, you have Grey, grandson of the most legendary Alliance hero, leader of the military which has just defeated the Invaders and is freeing the Neutral Rim. It's pretty much made clear that the Admiral has enough power to make a coup if he wanted: total control of the military, exceptional situation, endorsement by around half the civilian population, probably help from the majority of the lobbies, etc (he doesn't do it because he's not stupid). And again, the Alliance had been at peace this last 100 years when suddenly they had an invasion at their doorsteps; one that can be repeated if the Combined Fleet is defeated. A dread of an invasion is simply far larger than any other possibility (just look at the current international situation to see how much we can overreact over terrorism; imagine a full fledged invasion)
Second, I'm not saying that the civilian government is not against Grey (though for that, you'll have to change civilian government for "progressives", as it's pretty clear the Universalists endorse Grey), but I'm saying the civ government would have done the same. Propaganda is important, but it can't compare to 1500 ships, specially when almost anyone outside the Alliance who could benefit from such propaganda is dead: the most powerful Neutral Rim world, Cera, is destroyed, Ongess resistance has already been exterminated, the Union doesn't care, and PACT was already been fed full of propaganda. Ryuvia is the only world, but it's laughed off by everyone. Worlds with potential like Versta are simply too weak now, and they know they need the Alliance (or PACT) to survive. The Galaxy was already polarized before the conflict, so, while horrifying, it's not a game changer. And destroying worlds was actually pretty common in the New Empire and PACT; we know entire worlds were glassed during the Revolution, and PACT itself used the Legion freely, and that didn't stop Cosette from helping them (her and Shields being the closes thing we have to a "neutral party" in the conflict). The Alliance could easily justify themselves with that.
And Grey wanted peace too; the entire reason the paradox core was going to be fired and the Alliance decided on an invasion of PACT space was because they saw that event as PACT betraying them. When the other side is the one breaking the treaty and killing your fleet and leadership by a surprise attack, everything can be justified (and I'm reluctant to bring historical references, because they're always pretty polarizing, but I can do it if needed).
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 10, 2016 9:39:28 GMT -8
Christ, you wrote a lot. You know how sore my hands are from typing out a response to all that?
First off... I should point out tha the Agamemnon was a LOCAL LINER that they procured for the express purpose of evacuating Versta's children. And if you try to say "but the Alliance would have provided them with a ship" - keep in mind the Alliance Military didn't expect or want those diplomats leaving Versta. Point being that the Agamemnon/Versta really doesn't count as a representation for Alliance military vessels for emergency warp capability. And at Ryuvia Prime - no, not "everywhere" was safer then there. Not Cera, not Diode, not New Eden or any of the many, many PACT worlds in Neutral Space they might have accidentally warped to... you know, provided they didn't just warp straight into a star. If faced with risks like that, then no I don't think they would just do it - not unless it was to get away from something instantaneously unsurvivable (like, again, the event horizon of a black hole ripping apart a planet).
SO, again, I restate - by all accounts, yes you CAN simply warp out in a planet's gravity well. It's just so risky that it's not something you wanna try unless you either don't care where you end up or the damage you might cause to your ship, or are simply too desperate to care. "Non-negligible danger" is still preferable to "certain death by black hole", as is appearing ahead of your supply chains. And it's not like they need to go back to Solaris - just far enough to be out-of-system. But this wasn't even the point I was making - I pointed out that coordinating the Combined Fleet to jump out in unison so as not to risk anyone else was probably why the "Paradox Missile" wasn't fired the moment Gray gave the order; they weren't going to randomly jump out either way. My point was simply that it WAS possible for them to (randomly jump away) if they'd chosen to - it just was risky as all hell (though not risker then trying to survive that missile).
But I digress. Regarding the ships, though - again, I think that might just have been more to ensure the Combined Fleet had a nice, sizable window of jump-out time between launching the missile and the actual detonation. And that's even assuming the missile NEEDED to hit Cera as opposed to simply open the black hole close enough to rip Cera out of orbit - depending on how big it was, it could have opened relatively close to where the fleet was and still would have been close enough to devastate Cera and everything there.
Presidential CANDIDATE. He leads their military but, until he's in office (and he never will be now it seems), Gray doesn't truly speak for the Alliance - he's not even the sole figure in their military. Only a stand-alone sovereign or dictator, like Arcadius, would ever have the authority to even order the creation of such a weapon, let alone use it. It's BECAUSE he's in the military that he cannot have such singular authority to use a weapon like that - not without consenting agreement from other officials or the president of the nation he serves. I think it's that you're overestimating the amount of authority a democracy would ever give/allow one single person - it was because the civilian government knew Gray was ruthless that they did not want him in charge of the civilian parliament. Do you really think any country of this world willingly portray themselves as MONSTERS of such a scale and give their enemies ample propaganda fuel to use in uniting against them? That kind of thing is only guaranteed if you leave one man with all the power and none of the restrictions - hence why it makes no sense they would let Gray have that kind of authority. Especially not when BOTH sides (Alliance parliament and Fontana's PACT Revolutionists) were pressing for peace now.
The death of Gray and the senior officers would draw attention to Cera - It wouldn't be "nothing else"; The death of their 'fearless leaders' would shatter that same air of safety and show fallibility, and the detonation of the Paradox Core would make their leaders look like monsters in the public eye. Cera would be a flashpoint - hell, it already is since the Alliance was using it as justification to continue invading the Rim. Gray wasn't thinking when he used it - he cared for nothing but revenge for his death at that point - hence why, again, I don't think it make sense for one person to have that kind of authority over a WMD! I hope these comments don't get any longer - otherwise it's just going to be us throwing text-walls at one-another and ultimately getting nowhere nope, you can't simply warp out of planet's gravity well. Samu-kun clearly said, that in Sunrider universe ships has to move away from gravity well to certain degree.
I bet it goes like this:
1.) if you are far enough, gravity well doesn't influence you and you are good to go
2.) jumping inside gravity well is dangerous closer you are to planet.
3.) at some point you are so close to planet that jumping is unfeasible. Either because it's so extremely dangerous (pretty much certain death) or your warp drive is simply not powerful enough and it will fail. Of course there are exceptions, when PLOT allows you make some cool manoeuvre (like speeding around moon) that will alow you to bypass limitations somehow.
^ I think rules of the universe were already set.
and as per your plan to just detonate missile wherever :
"And that's even assuming the missile NEEDED to hit Cera as opposed to simply open the black hole close enough to rip Cera out of orbit - depending on how big it was, it could have opened relatively close to where the fleet was and still would have been close enough to devastate Cera and everything there."
I don't think creating ARTIFICIAL black hole inside gravity well of a planet is an easy feat.
Just think about restarted Star Trek (2009) , where captain Nero executed revenge on Federation by destroying their planets. If he could create blackhole wherever (somewhere in space above planet?) then why did he bother to drill into earth so he could fire black hole under surface? Either artificial black hole would fail or it would not be enough to destroy planet.
There probably was some sort of "reason" behind it.
about general Grey authority:
true that general Grey was only President candidate. But still how can you confidently say, that he didnt had enough authority to create or fire black hole missile? Grey might have been simple military officer in times of peace (to change that he wished to start the war by killing those diplomats), but history has proven that during war there is no such thing as "simple general" . There were many cases of generals that authorized things that are unimaginable during peace.
Also don't forget that politics don't care about "incidents" outside of their country/space as much as things happening inside their country/space. And since Cera is at outer edges (neutral rim?) of galaxy, it is clearly out of Alliance main points of interest.
Another thing to consider is the fact, that Grey wasn't just some unimportant general. From his actions it looked like he was highest ranked general in the area (even generals have ranks, you know. One star, two stars, etc.) and that pretty much made him supreme commander of alliance forces. Such authority could be used to fire weapons of mass destruction.
hehehe
Might have been wrong to do that, pal.
Nope yourself - none of that makes it impossible.
1.) That doesn't make it impossible to jump out - just that the gravity may affect the jump and damage the ship, not to mention throw you off-course.
2.) Key-word being "dangerous" - NOT "impossible."
3.) Black hole opening up right in front of you is certain death in and of itself - you either stay and die for sure or you jump out and maybe survive. Most people are probably gonna pick the latter.
^ If you mean that it ONLY ever states "risky and near-suicidal" instead of "flat-out impossible", then yes.
The artificial black hole that ruined Diode didn't need to be inside the planet, nor did it need to completely destroy it to do it's job. And Star Trek (2009)'s kind of a bad example - that guy probably just wanted zero survivors and total destruction. Something the Alliance doesn't necessarily need - even if there are survivors, a black hole's an unwieldy-enough weapon to cause more then enough damage to PACT. Especially since they don't even know it's coming - even if Cera is just devastated and not destroyed, it's more then enough for what Gray wanted.
I say it because, again, he's one man and he's not in an autocracy like Arcadius was. Look at modern governments - being the highest ranking military official doesn't mean you have the authority to drop WMD's at the drop of a dime; you need the current president's authority, not to mention that of your peers; and that's putting aside even being able to have the thing made, let alone deployed. And considering that BOTH SIDES WERE ACTIVELY PURSUING PEACE, the politics would very much care - especially if several ranking/leading members of their government suddenly ended up dead! And since Cera was where an active majority of Arcadius' loyalists were gathered and before that was arguably the most-developed power in the Rim, I fail to see why the Alliance wouldn't care about it. So again, no - I don't see how Gray has that kind of instant-use authority; if anything it's overstepping his bounds big-time. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 10, 2016 9:57:51 GMT -8
I agree we're perhaps getting too long. Sorry, can't help it, I tried to restrain myself a bit in this one.
On your first three paragraphs I'll disagree (not being able to warp inside a gravity well is basically the only thing we know about warp in Sunrider), but I agree that continuing the argument on it is meaningless.
On Grey, I think you're, again, underestimating both his power and the magnitude of the Combined Fleet. First, Grey is the candidate, and by such, the leader (or at least the one moving the strings) of the Universalists, the second most powerful party in the Solar congress. It's not like he's only military, but he controls the opposition in the Congress... to a weak president which has been publically humiliated by his total failure against PACT in every front. In contrast, you have Grey, grandson of the most legendary Alliance hero, leader of the military which has just defeated the Invaders and is freeing the Neutral Rim. It's pretty much made clear that the Admiral has enough power to make a coup if he wanted: total control of the military, exceptional situation, endorsement by around half the civilian population, probably help from the majority of the lobbies, etc (he doesn't do it because he's not stupid). And again, the Alliance had been at peace this last 100 years when suddenly they had an invasion at their doorsteps; one that can be repeated if the Combined Fleet is defeated. A dread of an invasion is simply far larger than any other possibility (just look at the current international situation to see how much we can overreact over terrorism; imagine a full fledged invasion)
Second, I'm not saying that the civilian government is not against Grey (though for that, you'll have to change civilian government for "progressives", as it's pretty clear the Universalists endorse Grey), but I'm saying the civ government would have done the same. Propaganda is important, but it can't compare to 1500 ships, specially when almost anyone outside the Alliance who could benefit from such propaganda is dead: the most powerful Neutral Rim world, Cera, is destroyed, Ongess resistance has already been exterminated, the Union doesn't care, and PACT was already been fed full of propaganda. Ryuvia is the only world, but it's laughed off by everyone. Worlds with potential like Versta are simply too weak now, and they know they need the Alliance (or PACT) to survive. The Galaxy was already polarized before the conflict, so, while horrifying, it's not a game changer. And destroying worlds was actually pretty common in the New Empire and PACT; we know entire worlds were glassed during the Revolution, and PACT itself used the Legion freely, and that didn't stop Cosette from helping them (her and Shields being the closes thing we have to a "neutral party" in the conflict). The Alliance could easily justify themselves with that.
And Grey wanted peace too; the entire reason the paradox core was going to be fired and the Alliance decided on an invasion of PACT space was because they saw that event as PACT betraying them. When the other side is the one breaking the treaty and killing your fleet and leadership by a surprise attack, everything can be justified (and I'm reluctant to bring historical references, because they're always pretty polarizing, but I can do it if needed).
Likewise, I think it's more that the "only" thing we know is that you can't do it safely, not that it's flat-out undoable. But that topic's dead at this point.
Again, I think you're just overestimating it. Gray is not instantly "the leader" just because he's a candidate for president - second-powerful power means there's one higher then him. Until he's actually in office, he does not have any solid power to go towards making orders like dropping WMD's. And Gray's actions throughout the war don't necessarily qualify him to lead a government - just an army - and the politicians don't delude themselves into thinking his leading their forces means he should decide their policies. And AGAIN, him already having that kind of power is why it is so unlikely that the current ruling party would let him have any more - at least not without him needing their explicit consent to exercise it. And then the next nail in the coffin - the war was considered OVER at that point. PACT - now represented majorly by Fontana - was brokering PEACE, so any of that "war-time logic" pull goes out the window in regards to Gray retaining such power.
Second, I'm saying that I really don't buy that for one second - the Alliance pretty much built it's propaganda engine on retaliating for PACT using such horrific means. Suddenly using such means themselves is like shooting themselves in the foot and it will make them look monsters, and then all the civ support for those 1500 ships goes down the drain - and with both that and Gray gone, where's that leave them? Propaganda is where the lobbying to even have those ships out there came from in the first place! It is very much a game-changer - especially with Gray dead - because it proves once and for all that there's no right side in the conflict, and all those worlds who's people once opposed PACT... they're gonna stop resisting and start FLOCKING to join them; mass recruitment drives all around from the Neutral Rim. The Alliance's own propaganda was based off of NOT following PACT's actions - doing so isn't going to sit well with anyone, not even their own civilians.
He wanted peace through force of arms - that's hardly any better then what Alpha had wanted Alice to do (before she rebelled against that plan). And the fact that PACT was seemingly lobbying for peace would make it very, very hard to believe that the Progress Party would entrust Gray with the authority needed to use a WMD after his proven hate of PACT since that's very detrimental to peace-plans. As I said before, everything CANNOT be justified so easily - or at least not in the case of using a WMD instantaneously. Hell, even dropping such a weapon after the fact would be more understandable in the long run then having the authority to do so then and there in what should have been a peace talk! And I really don't think you can bring any such historical references - ten to one, they're not gonna fit properly in this context. |
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Post by truebeliever on Mar 10, 2016 11:48:27 GMT -8
I still have problems with the V 1.0 ending and would have preferred a different route, as outlined above, but having loaded up a save toward the end in V 2.00, it seems my apology was warranted. Love in Space redeemed themselves in my eyes with this patch. Well done.
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Sorry couldn't resist... it's an eroge VN anyway right xD But yea on a more serious note I completely agree with your views. I'd have Ava disobey orders for the first time, to come back for Kayto. And yea if they could make one special Tactical Paradox torpedo, they must have the blueprints and should be able to make another. 
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