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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 12, 2017 10:44:26 GMT -8
Looks like I'm late to the topic. Aesthetically Eye-patch and glove Ava is way cooler looking, but I couldn't bring myself to risk the love of my life over petty revenge. Revenge is not the jedi way. In the end the sexual harassment forms seem to suggest that Ava does not share my sentiment on the matter. I was seduced by the dark side and only now realize it. In truth when I made the choice I didn't believe Ava would really be killed, but I did want revenge. I don't care for the eye patch though, but then I don't care for body piercings or tattoos either. Don't read to much into the sexual harassment forms, once Kayto points out there is no Cera Command to send the forms to, she admits she was just venting. Do you think that the choice would have been more effective and meaningful if you believed that Ava would have died? I'm not trying to attack you for thinking logically and seeing that Ava had a high chance of survival at that point but I still think that metagaming out of major choices is a bit if-y to me. I'm not trying to claim that this choice was bad either, I've seen countless games contain many choices that eventually turn out to have no effect on the story. Compared to many larger games, I think that sunrider has done well in this area. Its also interesting to think about how choices in video games could have more meaningful effects overall. |
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Post by magicdragon on Dec 12, 2017 13:36:48 GMT -8
Do you think that the choice would have been more effective and meaningful if you believed that Ava would have died? I'm not trying to attack you for thinking logically and seeing that Ava had a high chance of survival at that point but I still think that metagaming out of major choices is a bit if-y to me. I'm not trying to claim that this choice was bad either, I've seen countless games contain many choices that eventually turn out to have no effect on the story. Compared to many larger games, I think that sunrider has done well in this area. Its also interesting to think about how choices in video games could have more meaningful effects overall. I don't know that I would have seen it as more meaningful, because its a game, not a real life situation, I can always load a saved game and make a different choice. As I try not to do a lot of save and see if I like the other choice better for a first run, had I believed Ava would have died it would have been a more difficult choice. Ava is (usually) my favorite character and since I wouldn't want her story to end there, I don't think I would have ordered her to go. Of course that would mean I failed Star Fleet's Command Officer training. |
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 12, 2017 14:40:18 GMT -8
When I used the word 'meaningful' I wasn't using the word in a personal sense, more what the choice would 'mean' in the outcome of the story. Sorry for my lack of clarity.  Ill try to explain my reasoning better. Obviously, in game you take the position of kayto. The game is likely in the first person to make the player feel like they are kayto while playing. So every choice would be more optimal in its effect if the player had the exact thoughts that kayto did.
Im not delusional I am fully aware that I am not Captain Kayto Shields but that doesn't change the fact that if I was, the choices in sunrider be more effective as i would be thinking everything the protagonist is and I'd take everything the developers wanted me to take into account before i made any choice.
In this case Kayto legitimately believes that ordering Ava to activate the vanguard would possibly kill Ava. Hence, for the choice to be more optimal, the player should too.
As metagaming allows the player to take another thought into account that the developers didn't intend Kayto to consider. The choice then has more factors and hence its effect is less optimal.
I have made the assumption that pros and cons for each choice are balanced. If they aren't, metagaming could possibly make the choice better but due to that this poll is so divided, for this choice in particular, that isn't an issue. Obviously, if you dont care about making choices more effective, disregard this entire post. You can just as convincingly dismiss my entire post by saying "what the hell is wrong with you, its just a game, why are you overthinking everything." On the other hand if you are interested and if there are any major issues with my logic tell me, I am more than happy to be proven wrong. |
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Post by magicdragon on Dec 12, 2017 17:35:42 GMT -8
For me to better be able to suspend disbelief and see a choice where it looks like I (as Kayto) must make a life or death decision and for me to feel there is meaning to that decision, the author would need to take a page from George R R Martin introducing some characters that look like characters that will be with you through the story but then kill them off. Or perhaps better would be having you make choices that spare them or get them killed. This way you never know, am I really ordering this person to their death or will they survive.
So if an extra had been introduced with Asaga and Chigara, but given enough background and such that the character doesn't feel like one of those nameless expendable marines, then throw in a situation like when you pick up Claude. Just before that battle you are asked if you want to send the ryders forward to protect the transport, this creates an opportunity to kill the extra. If you say yes and the extra's ryder is destroyed then after the battle is over you get the news that her suit was damaged by shrapnel and ordering the ryders forward left her too far from the Sunrider to get back before she ran out of oxygen.
If there were a few situations like this to loose some extras and assuming I had one or more extras killed by choices I made, then I would be me wondering if Ava was a character that would really survive no matter the choice I make.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 13, 2017 5:34:41 GMT -8
The situation you described is logical, One of the most efficient ways to reduce metagaming is by keeping the player in the dark and not giving them enough details to make an inference.
I can see this being rather controversial though, not telling the player what is really going wont work in story driven games.
I think that if a few 'extras' dying before this choice than it would decrease the chance of Ava's dying as you wouldn't be wise to have half the main characters die in the opening game of the series.
This wont really be very popular in future sunrider games either. I sense a second waifu war coming.
I would like to point out that im not saying that people who metagame are stupid or wrong it can quite often be the opposite. Its just that I think doing so takes away from the effect and meaningfulness of the choice
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Post by Rellek on Dec 13, 2017 8:06:36 GMT -8
I actually think it would be really interesting (Dear God, what am I saying?) if Ava could actually be killed off by that choice, but granting a real and tangible benefit to losing your XO or making any "prince" choice in general. Moralist choices give you narrative benefits while prince choices give you mechanical benefits.
Obviously the idea of Ava dying is absolutely unacceptable (unbelievable, even), but the idea of seeing just how much Kayto, and by extension, myself, is willing to sacrifice to prevent this is something I'd be very interested to see.
"The whole of the Alliance can burn! The galaxy can fall to its doom! The end of humanity can come! But I will not throw you away to die!"
I want to see Kayto put his money where his mouth is.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 13, 2017 9:50:25 GMT -8
That is an interesting concept. What kind of benefits did you have in mind for this scenario in particular? Despite the fact that she is the inferior tsundere, I still think that it would be very difficult, for me at least, to sacrifice her for a gameplay bonus because when I finish the game, I think id still believe that I had failed. The only exception I can think of is if i play on space whale mode, on that difficulty I think its understandable to go for the most optimum choices in terms of gameplay.
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Post by Rellek on Dec 13, 2017 10:32:57 GMT -8
First of all, Ava is neither inferior nor (that I believe) traditionally tsundere. The founding constitution of the Waifu Union states that all waifus are equal, and Ava is merely aloof, to my unending frustration.
Off the top of my head, by putting the Legion out of commission, one could get a peek at the inner workings of the dreadnought and make it's strengths your own, or maybe even fix it up and add it to your fleet. Perhaps to some, a weapon of that magnitude would be worth Ava's life.
I can not imagine ever sacrificing her no matter what, but I'm sure not everyone shares my opinion.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 13, 2017 15:39:49 GMT -8
Our constitution states in article 2 ' The president will pledge his allegiance to the Tsun Goddess-Queen Icari.' so Im forced to respectfully reject your statement but let's focus on the issue at hand.
That sounds interesting, maybe you could get to upgrade the vanguard using the schematics you could get from the legions main weapon. I guess you could be given the vanguard upgrade as default to represent this.
Maybe after the second battle of helion, you salvaged the legion and that unlocks upgrades. Like the Ryuvian Falcons. (As a side point the low energy cost of their weapons was really useful on those)
Or maybe even having the choice to recruit surviving legion crew members similar to the cosette choice.
These were just some ideas. Anyone have any better?
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Post by Nemjen on Dec 13, 2017 22:21:33 GMT -8
Right would the person who broke the balance with backing 'without' please raise their hand? We have a lot to talk about me and you...
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 20, 2017 9:39:06 GMT -8
Right would the person who broke the balance with backing 'without' please raise their hand? We have a lot to talk about me and you...
'raises hand' I think I may be responsible for that. My apologies  |
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Post by Rellek on Dec 20, 2017 21:11:44 GMT -8
It seems Magpie is not intimidating enough, as the 'without' crowd is growing at an alarming rate.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 21, 2017 0:09:48 GMT -8
Oh Magpie is pretty scary. 'looks at profile' crap, well there are many worse titles.
Although we started to discuss this earlier but we didnt really go into most detail. What ideas do people have for future gameplay effects that the bionic eye could provide?
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Post by Nemjen on Dec 21, 2017 1:00:24 GMT -8
It seems Magpie is not intimidating enough, as the 'without' crowd is growing at an alarming rate. I'm putting my faith in the spirit of christmas, there should be no waifu conflicts (even internal ones) this time of year.  |
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Post by defieroftheodds on Dec 28, 2017 10:58:12 GMT -8
It seems Magpie is not intimidating enough, as the 'without' crowd is growing at an alarming rate. I'm putting my faith in the spirit of christmas, there should be no waifu conflicts (even internal ones) this time of year. It seems that Magpie's desperate plea for peace has resulted in a ceasefire over Christmas. It's a miracle! |
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Post by rustabledoor201 on Jan 12, 2018 19:24:10 GMT -8
In regards to the idea of reintroducing the Legion, it may be a question of who possesses it.
If it sinks, then the Solar Alliance would have the potential to reconstruct a similar vessel; if it doesn't, then it'll still be up to the prototypes to decide what to do with the Legion (correct me if I'm wrong).
The Love In Space team still have limitless potential with Sunrider. It's all up to them on how to form the final story.
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Post by defieroftheodds on Jan 13, 2018 0:34:30 GMT -8
Do we still need to be using spoiler boxes in this thread. Just in case I will for now. I think that the legion would be under PACT control but this is an interesting idea. The idea of two enemies joining together against a larger enemy is rather common but can be made effective.
There is also the question of the Sharr'Lac, even the Ryuvians didn't use it often due to its power. It would be able to severely cripple the ryuvian fleet. Although the Sharr'Lac did recieve severe damage and I admit that it most likely has been destroyed.
Just an idea, assuming the Sharr'Lac is still functional. Maybe you get a choice where you can operate it again, that choice might be interesting.
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Le_Fay
Corporal
i assure you no matter what is i am doing, i am absolutely up to no good
Posts: 69 
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Post by Le_Fay on Jan 13, 2018 17:19:59 GMT -8
Sadly, I don't think that that would be implemented as only around half the players would have access to it. I wouldn't write it off the eye having a game play element to it, remember that Havoc is available in the final mission despite it only benefiting players who chose a specific choice. It's also interesting that the same choice ends with Cosette fleeing while the opposite is that she is dead and looks to not make another appearance. In an ideal environment you treat big choices like these as having both a positive and negative effect. AlivePro - Firepower support in the final mission Con - She has since fled and may be a threat again DeadPro - No longer a threat Con - Loss of an potential ally and any consequences associated with her death Anywho this is all personal speculation, as you all know Sunrider isn't on the development cards right now.  *starts having flashbacks* |
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Post by defieroftheodds on Jan 16, 2018 23:54:34 GMT -8
She had killed thousands of people leading the pirates and she was allied to PACT. The events at Ongess came to mind.
Removing her from the equation would mean that the pirates would have no leader. This means that the pirates would be less coordinated and less effective as a fighting force.
But as Magpie stated earlier Cosette could be a possible ally, maybe sparing Cosette would result in her helping you in the situation you're in at the end of liberation day. I'm not entirely convinced though, maybe she'll just order her forces to not engage you if you run into her.
I do feel some remorse at her final words but then you have sunk several carriers and battleships with thousands of crew members who most likely had the same thoughts right before their deaths. |
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