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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 22, 2016 11:39:45 GMT -8
Eh well, in terms of adding more mid-content, all of the major events of Libday still have to occur or else it won't connect with the fourth game, so it would just extend the parts that people didn't like. There's not much which can be added which people would have wanted anyways, so I think just giving the story people wanted in the form of REturn was the best option. The general story treatments of First Arrival, Mask of Arcadius, and Liberation Day were written three years ago. You guys probably don't know what the VN market was like back then, but Sekai Project barely even existed, and Manga Gamer was just barely starting to turn a profit back in 2013. I think the market shifted too radically during the three years that it took to make the game. In today's market, you either release with AAA-tier Akibahara eroge style art and a lot of fan service or else your game will probably not sell. I would say the production of Mask of Arcadius was pretty much a massive clusterfuck where most of the team was days away from starving to death, and Liberation Day was us pretty much trying to strap on as many fancy features as possible to a story which was envisioned years ago. I think if Mask of Arcadius was a paid product, the market reception would have been as worse as Liberation Day. MoA essentially has everything people hated about Liberation Day - the story length is a bit shorter than LibDay V2 (29k words MoA vs. 31k words LD) - no romance routes with waifus - and it ends on a massive cliff hanger which resolves nothing. Nobody just notices because it's free and it's bundled with First Arrival. (which has its own problems, but hey that's free too.) Ultimately, LibDay was written with a vastly different market in mind. Academy and REturn were written with today's market in mind. And I bet that's what makes the difference. Some heads at Sekai Project and myself were pretty concerned the product was going to land in a hostile market so we were not particularly surprised on release day. We were under quite a bit of pressure from the market to release another high fan service choose your waifu game like Sunrider Academy which sold incredibly well, but ultimately I chose to stick with what was originally planned for the first three games rather than redirecting the series. In the end though, I still liked working on Liberation Day the most out of all the games I've worked on, and I think most of our fans have just become all the more dedicated to supporting Love in Space. We will always continue to produce games in our own particular style, so I don't particularly care if some people disagree with what we're doing. Throughout Love in Space's almost decade long history, its staff members are received almost every kind of insult. But for every insult, we gain ten supporters and our popularity has only steadily grown with each year, so I think we're doing something right. Samu... The entire point of a DLC story-arc IS to add to the story WITHOUT changing the major events of the game - I've said it ad nausium, but LOOK AT MASS EFFECT; they did a crapton of DLC for their series and they didn't have to alter any of the major events in the series. And the whole reason people didn't like those parts of LibDay is BECAUSE they're so short and have no build-up - people wouldn't have called the Chigara thing a "railroad-shotgun romance" had it been given longer to develop, people wouldn't have called Asaga's changes a heel-turn had we seen her wrestling with her own conscience, people wouldn't have said Kayto suddenly became an idiot if they saw him have a moment or so of reflection and self-decision, ect. If you actually believe that, you haven't read any of the feedback that was given - because this doesn't fix the story they have in LibDay. If anything, [RE]Turn is salt in the wound that makes it seem you're rather make AU's instead of fix your main product. That's semantics, Samu - it doesn't matter if you pre-wrote it because (A) execution determines things more then pre-planning and (B) you yourself admitted to cutting out entire arcs of story as far back as MoA, so being pre-written obviously doesn't mean it's not subject to change. And you're only incriminating yourself worse because you're now basically admitting you decided to pile on gimmicks instead of focus on the actual story - and for the record, what you're saying is pretty much a big misnomer; if you're game is just an "eroge style art and a lot of fan service"... it actually WON'T have that big a chance to sell because it needs to make you have something to CARE about it first. In a market that over-saturated, you need to have something unique - something to make people care - or it's just going to get lost in the mix; anyone can throw boobs at the screen Samu, but if you don't give them something to make them care about it then they'll just go somewhere that does. 90% of those "eroge" you mentioned have GOOD STORY behind them to make you care (Dracu-Riot, Comu:Black Dragon in a Gentle Kingdom, ect). No, Samu - because Mask of Arcadius was GOOD. I actually think it - especially if combined with First Arrival - would have outperformed Liberation Day, because it fulfilled more of it's premise and potential then LibDay did. It's not really shorter and it delivers a more powerful kick, and it didn't cram a romance down people's throat the way LibDay did with Chigara as opposed to build up a slow bond, and the cliffhanger revealed A LOT (the truth of Diode, the long-hinted connection between Chigara and Arcadius, how PACT had such advanced weapons of destruction available to them, ect). It did more with less whereas LibDay did less with more - it gave you fleshed-out characters that had degrees of nuance and subtlety to their characters; none of them felt fake or stereotyped. Hell, break off [RE]Turn from LibDay and it would out-perform LibDay's sales as well. To be blunt, you completely and utterly misinterpreted the issue - MoA had everything LibDay did but EXECUTED IT BETTER. Samu... at this point, that just sounds like an excuse. Academy and [RE]Turn would do better because you actually showed CARE for the damn story - something it doesn't look like you did for LibDay. Hell, if anything, you said you made LibDay for todays market with all the gimmicks you put into it, so you're contradicting yourself. If the market was "hostile", it has nothing to do with what you seem to think - it was because the damn story flopped. Sunrider Academy did well NOT because of fanservice and waifus - it did well because it gave you the GOOD CHARACTERS and GOOD STORY that made you give a damn and made any fanservice feel satisfying. Fanservice for it's own sake is mindless, repetitive and runs a bigger risk of driving people away because it's more jarring and immersion-breaking - they're going to ask "why"? And you're contradicting yourself again - if you "chose to stick with what was originally planned for the first three games rather than redirecting the series", WHY DID YOU CHANGE THAT GAME TO MATCH WHAT YOU CLAIMED WAS "TODAY'S MARKET"? If you believe that then, again, you've not even bothered to look at the feedback they gave you - they were supporting you because they felt you were willing to compromise and fix your mistakes. You've just said you aren't. What you were doing right was adding content - what you're doing wrong about it is not putting that work where people recommended it should go most; the mid-game.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 22, 2016 11:13:21 GMT -8
okay, I've got now the secret Claude ending first and the Icari-happy ending 2nd. I'm very happy with the DLC, had a lot of fun, just awesome to get such a expansion for free. will surly testing the other arcs! the only thing that I would like to see !absolutely! is a menue where I can replay the endings I got (and see how much endings there are). Beside this the game is great, besides some spelling-error that have already been mentioned. At least I have just a very big question @samu-kun / LiS: How is the further STory planned? I liked the LD2.0 ending after all; but with the DLC this one feels obsolates?! Which ending is canon? LD2.0 (Sunrider destroyed, intergalactic war, Sunrider crew scattered) or DLC (LD-Massacre did not take place; Chigara in Prison untill Alpha is hunted done; new crew Member; new adventures)? As I wrote, I like both endings, but my heart's ill if I don't know which one is canon :S Greez Vladek PS: As one of the honourfull Tsun-Warrior of Icari-sama's great Empire I can say that the Icari-Ending fits my taste. Approved from the Tsun-Prime Minister. Of course not because I liked it! Menu says [RE]Turn is AU. In other words, none of it is cannon - none of it changes LibDay's story.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 22, 2016 1:30:48 GMT -8
Just to say, I wasn't the one who voted for a complete rewrite on that poll. I believe expanding the mid-game wouldn't work alone, and would need a complete rewrite to be somewhat effective (and by complete rewrite I don't mean changing the core concepts; simply rewriting the scenes), but I don't think that must or should be done. I didn't vote in the poll mostly because there was no "I'm not super-fine with it, but I just wish we would let it go and focus on the sequel/spin-off/whatever". Likewise, I never said you were the one - just that (A) you were the only one (prior to Dextix) who said you felt a rewrite was for the best and (B) only one person had voted "complete rewrite" (though now that's changed). Never said you were the same as the voter, nor was it my intent to imply such. Likewise, I disagree that a complete rewrite is necessary - and ironically it was your own thread that convinced me of that; debating with you was what showed me LibDay's plot wasn't as horrible as my knee-jerk reaction made me think. In fact, the scenes themselves don't need heavy rewriting to work - if they were the closing moments of a longer narrative, they'd actually be passable. I wouldn't oppose such a thing, granted, but it wouldn't be required in my opinion. Also, the "fine as is" option is pretty much the one you're looking for in that case. But again, the issue with that is that future releases MUST focus on it - you yourself claimed games set precedents for their sequels, and by that logic LibDay set something of an inauspicious one that will make every single sequel/spin-off/whatever drag up questions of how, when and what form the criticisms of LibDay will be addressed. Or, to be more blunt, it's never going to be something that will be totally let go - especially not when (if Vaen is to be believed) the very things most criticized (Chigara's forced romance being a big one) are apparently "plot-essential" and therefore are so closely tied into the future plot that it'll be impossible to avoid them anyway.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 21, 2016 21:17:12 GMT -8
But that's precisely my point as well - where exactly were you getting your own idea from? You were the one who came here impressing that idea - I'm pointing out though that (A) what you're saying pretty much defeats the purpose of even having a fanbase-community to begin with, (B) that marketet/publicly-released stories aren't exactly sovereign property of one person (especially not with video games/JRPG's/ect) since fans have a stake in it as well, and (C) that if any story was in fact such a sole property, it would make them all more fallible and prone to a degree of bias.
Again, not really - if anything, you and I aren't even in conflict on whether it would be for the best or not; we were fighting about "who's got the right to say what's right" or so-on. But contrasting that, when it comes to what we think would be best for the game's story, you yourself admitted you WOULD like said mid-game expansion to take place - your argument was more an attempt to say Samu shouldn't (need to) do so as opposed to whether or not you'd oppose it. Moreover, you doubly-agreed with me because you confessed that you'd prefer the story be added/expanded over the typos - you JUST ADMITTED it would be tolerable to you.
Also, I should point out that you're twisting my words rather badly - I never said what I alone found important was worth considering more. In fact, if comments on the forms and especially on Steam are any indication, I'm actually just echoing what most people ALREADY believe - that LibDay's mid-game was what needed attention the most. It's really not quite as tangled a web as you might think. Plus, what you're saying... really isn't anything he's not ALREADY dealing with even with [RE]Turn alone - not satisfying everyone who ever plays it is a norm for all games. The goal is to satisfy as much of it as possible - and from what I've seen, a mid-game arc that improves the flow, pacing and build-up of the story would have done that. Any complaints after that - THOSE are something the next game could deal with.
Also... I think you might want to re-read Marx's thread - because that seems to be the furthest thing from what I saw. If anything, the debates there (largely between me and him) were more about the merits of what LibDay's ending were/it's impact on the development. People had different beliefs, but there WAS a consensus - that LibDay's mid-game needed to have been longer and better expanded upon. What you're trying to say was "full of conflicting opinions" is, again, being semantical about it.
Not my point - more that you seemed to express apathy overall instead of really caring about the series enough to push for something. Again, you're taking it to a sharp extreme in contrast to my views.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 21, 2016 19:10:17 GMT -8
This is probably at the crux of our disagreement, so let me do away with comparisons and state things as clearly as I can. I don't think a writer has an obligation to his or her fans other than to do an honest job. I think it's nice when a writer addresses fans' concerns, but I don't think that's required. Similarly, I think it's nice when fans show loyalty to a writer, but I don't think they're obligated to stick by one who's lazy or incompetent. More germane to this discussion, I don't think fans have a right to demand that a writer change his or her work simply by virtue of having paid money. We bought a game, not the right to dictate how LiS should use their time, and anyone who thinks they have that right is definitely beyond the pale. When LiS put out 2.0, that was a nice gesture. They would have been fully within their rights to keep the game as is. I had many complaints about LibDay's ending, and I would have been unhappier if they hadn't put out 2.0, but needless to say, I'd have survived. Granted, 2.0 was not a totally selfless gesture on LiS' part: As Magpie pointed out, the reviews were indeed bad, and it was in the series' interest to turn perceptions around. Things are different now; the reviews have improved, and as far as LiS is concerned, there is no compelling reason to tinker further with LibDay proper. Unless you can somehow change Samu's mind through eloquence and close reasoning, that's just how it is. Incidentally, I think 2.0 is a good example of why I think "endlessly revising" is the right phrase. As your poll shows, some players just wanted a better ending, and 2.0 satisfied them. Other players thought the midgame was faulty, and they're calling for more story arcs, as you're doing. Other people thought the entire setup was flawed and needed a complete rewrite. A 2.1 that adds midgame content will not satisfy the complete rewrite contingent, just as 2.0 didn't satisfy the midgamers. If you, hypothetically, are a midgamer, then you might argue that 2.1 would be enough and those calling for 2.2 are unreasonable, but of course, the 2.0 contingent would have choice words for you as well. And of course, there was a small but vocal contingent who thought the 1.0 version was a perfectly good game. It's a quagmire, and I understand LiS' desire to do 2.0 -- and no more. To get back on topic, you wrote that Samu was willing to add to LibDay, just not in the way that people really wanted to see. That's probably a fair assessment, but from my point of view, he's well within his rights to do what he likes. Here's an example of what I'm driving at: The Sunrider games are riddled with spelling and grammar errors and awkward phrasing. It's pretty undeniable that fixing those would improve players' perception of the series and lift it out of semi-amateur status. But LiS hasn't fixed them and never will; when they've made an effort to fix them, it's always been half-hearted and low-priority. That's their decision as a company, I assume based on their resources and obligations. I think it's misguided, but as a fan, I've made my peace with the fact that their games are always going to have typos. Similarly, while LiS is willing to make a kind of side story with [RE]turn, they're clearly not willing to look at a 2.1 or 2.2. You may think that's wrong; you may argue that LibDay's flaws will plague the series unless fixed now, and you may be right, but LiS doesn't have to fix them if it doesn't want to. Of course, there are consequences for actions, but if they're prepared for those consequences, then what can anyone else say? It's their life and their games. No one would be happier than me if Sunrider goes on to bigger and better things, but if it doesn't, I can live with that too. But that's just it - a writer, especially a game-maker, DOES have those obligations because that's one of the things that comes with having a fan-base; you have expectations and a community to support, and supporting it means taking them and their contributions, opinions and so-forth under consideration lest you just drive people away. Part of doing "an honest job" is to keep what the fans want in mind - that's the whole point of even making a fan-base in the first place, and it's as much a requirement of any writer who feels his job is worth a damn as it is for fans to be understanding of the dev himself. It is NOT as one-sided as you're trying to make it - obligations exist; nothing and I mean nothing can ever change that, but they are an equal two-way street. To "state things as clearly as I can", believing otherwise is (in my experience) wishful thinking at best and a fantasy at worst. You ARE obligated - it's "beyond the pale" to think otherwise because the issue is more balancing the two out. And actually, money's not germane to this because it's about the series in general; the price-tag doesn't change that. But that in and of itself is the issue - "I'd have survived." That's the same as saying you don't care that much - in fact, most of the argument feels more like you've said Samu shouldn't care about how his game is/turns out as much as his fans do. Moreover, the reviews only "improved" because they were re-reviews overlapped on top of those that were bad, Even more jarring is that most of them aren't even giving a thumbs-up because it's good - it's because it's better then it was. Worse still, I can only count on one hand how many of those reviews, positive or otherwise, didn't criticize the main story as being lackluster, linear, badly-executed or even botched - even people who said they loved it claimed the story was the WORST PART. It feels like Samu is letting the number of reviews influence his stance instead of what the actual reviews themselves are saying - like if there's more bad then good or vice-versa, he doesn't have to actually READ the feedback. The entire point of this was that I'm no longer sure "eloquence and reasoning" even matter to him anymore - just numbers. But again, that's NOT the case because V2.00 wasn't a revision - it was an expansion, which was closer to what people wanted for the MID-GAME, which makes "endlessly revising" the wrong phrase entirely. "Revising" is altering the path that's taken - changing the ending entirely or the like or replacing dialouge or changing the whole layout - which is arguably the TOTAL OPPOSITE of expanding. Look at the Mass Effect series' DLC - they added to the story but they didn't need to drastically change the main storyline or completely redo it's ending to do so (with 3 being the arguable exception). Also, for the record, only ONE person on that poll has actually called for a total rewrite - what's there is more then just salvageable; it just needs one extra arc to pad things out and not make the plot feel so rushed. The number of people who actually want a total rewrite is the minority - in fact, Marx is the only person I know who suggested it. Plus, you're making a pretty big assumption on whether or not it would satisfy the "rewrite contingent" in general if the story was proven salvageable, and any such "2.2" would already be satisfied by [RE]Turn. In short - your argument comes across as completely and utterly semantical, and dealing with a "2.1" would ensure the things people had issue with in LibDay don't have to dictate what the narrative of the next Sunrider game has to do to compensate for it. But counter to that, it almost feels like you're arguing Samu doesn't have a right to acknowledge what the feedback his fans are giving him actually is. Again, when you have a fanbase, you are in fact obligated to listen to them and take it under consideration - what you do with it and how it takes shape can vary, but that doesn't mean you can just do whatever anymore then they can demand whatever. Fanbases and creators share an EQUAL sense of obligation - neither side has more power then the other and both need to listen to each-other to create a successful community. Your arguing about grammar is another semantical example - it's something that isn't severe enough to be immersion-breaking like a story-narrative issue is; the scale of these issues is apples and oranges. You can claim otherwise all you want, but the fact of the matter is that sometimes what you want isn't always what's best - an issue that has plagued storywriters before because, just like any other human, they're not above reproach. Sometimes for the good of the story, you need to be able to step back and admit you made a wrong turn - something that not every writer can do if they're too close to the story in question. That's typically why big-name games nowadays have peer-review boards and assistant writers to offer input as well - and of course, why they even have COMMUNITIES in the first place. If they were "prepared for those consequences", the LibDay fiasco wouldn't have happened - nor would they have felt the need for V2.00 in response to the backlash. It may be their game, but it's no longer just their story - not once it gets a fanbase and community going. Like I said, that's part of what having fanbases is, and taking consideration of it is one of those "consequences."
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 21, 2016 16:20:34 GMT -8
I think the way this poll is set up is a tad biased. Nobody will ever refute extra content, by nature we always tend to want more of things, specially if we don't need to pay. When asking people if they want something, they will never say "nothing", even if they're perfectly fine as they are. I think most people voting "It's fine as is" is more because they're voting thinking on the discussion on the other thread. Now, Liberation Day suffers a lot in its middle content, I myself said that on a number of times. But it's not like I really want Samu-kun to return and expand that part; it would make the game formally a lot better, sure, but I don't think it can help now. The bad impressions are already done, and even if we replayed the whole game we would automatically revert to our earlier impressions when we reached known scenes. Our mind is lazy, if it already has a preconceived notion about something, it's hard to change it. Furthermore, most of extra scenes needed would be of build-up, so I simply think it wouldn't do much for most people. A total rewrite would be preferable to simply adding stuff in the middle at this time. However, I don't think a total rewrite is worth it? Lib Day is pretty bad at parts, but it's also serviceable; I played worse things, and the general consensus seems to be that people still think of it not as well as the previous games, but are still looking forward to the sequel. A total rewrite, specially if the director/writer doesn't want to do it, may be even worse :if his work in Libday was lackluster, it could end in an even worse disaster. I think I would simply let it go. I'm not fine with it as it is right now, but sometimes things are not as good as you hoped for. I prefer a sequel, with a fresh state of mind, in which the author can combine his planned ideas with the feedback of his latest work. I'm sorry, but I think that's a strawman argument - there's a difference between wistful desire and the belief that a game actually needs said changes. This is seeing what the biggest fault was. The issue with that is the fact that, if not addressed now, then the narrative deficiencies of LibDay will have to be addressed in the future installments - therefore the path of the next game will be dictated by what does or doesn't need to be explained/fixed in the storyline LibDay set up for it. It's a mistake to think bad first impressions mean you shouldn't try to fix it - if anything it improves things because it shows a dev is willing to compromise. Fallout 3 seemed to prove that much with the changes made to it's own narrative. I think your viewpoint is very assumptive/presumptive and defaulting to the lowest common denominator. And given the amount of work that was done for [RE]Turn - a non-cannon AU spin-off - whether or not LiS would be willing to put in the effort is academic. Plus, as you yourself stated in your analysis, a total rewrite would NOT be "preferable" because the concepts in LibDay are interesting and could work great in a story if just paced better. If just one single mid-game arc was done that paced things out as a better bridge between the start of the game and the Fall of Cera - one that had the same care and attention given to it as [RE]Turn has - it would would be anything but a disaster. The reason I disagree is because I think it's impossible for such a "fresh state of mind" to exist - LibDay's narrative issues were so heavily criticized that the next game is going to have to face the consequences and deal with it otherwise. People will ask about/question/fear a lack of choices or crewmembers becoming cutouts or story being minimal or (of course) how the "Chigara thing" fits in for the next game, and it's going to set up as much of a precedent for the next game as you claimed MoA & Academy did for LibDay - there really isn't any escaping that.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 21, 2016 16:09:11 GMT -8
I think Sharr's one of those people who just like arguing for the sake of arguing. All sizable science fiction fandoms draw out people like that. Fitting handle name too, perhaps he has awakened one too many times and ended up like this... It's like George Lucas changing things. If the director tinkers with what's already out there, the changes aren't necessarily going to be for the better. I'm sure that when the next Sunrider rolls out, there'll be people swearing "I loved Liberation Day and this new installment just doesn't live up" too. Nostalgia makes everything better, and whether you like a story is really subjective. All due respect, but no - I'm arguing because I actually believe it and, so far, haven't met anyone that's actually dissuaded me otherwise. Plus, I point out I'm actually echoing sentiments A LOT of people, including long-timers like Marx (what with his massive sub-analysis on what even he described as LibDay's deficiencies), had with LibDay - I'm just way more blunt then them. But the issue with that is that nobody WANTED you to "tinker" with anything - in film terms, it's basically just adding another act between the beginning and end. You don't have to change the ending or anything like people wanted with ME3 - they would have been satisfied simply by being made to feel what's there makes sense (biggest example - nobody would have called the Chigara stuff a "railroad romance" had it been drawn out with the same care that it had been set up with in MoA). Unlike ME3, the concepts you used for this aren't bad - just rushed, and an extra arc would have fixed that. And I must again disagree - that subjective stuff... well to be rude, at this point it sounds more like an excuse from you - if there was really such a thing, there's be no such thing as bad media at all, and you're never going to find a single person who'd believe that; not even you.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 21, 2016 15:08:47 GMT -8
That's where I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Sharr, because we're dealing with human beings and not automatons. I think a writer should write what he or she wants to write, not what someone tells him or her to write, because the alternative is very often an unhappy writer who can't work to his or her full potential. To go back to George R.R. Martin, I think the guy's a terrifically capable writer. If you'd asked me back in the day whether I thought he could fill out those missing years between Book 3 and Book 4, I'd have said, yes, absolutely. And the reality is that he's been having a terrible time. The problem is not one of raw talent. Pardon my armchair psychology, but I suspect the reality is that Martin never wanted to go that route and resents being forced that way, hence the numerous delays in writing the series since Book 3. You can think of it this way. An overbearing parent may want his child to become a lawyer/doctor/engineer. He knows the child is smart enough to do those jobs successfully. But suppose the child wants to make video games instead? Yes, she's probably condemning herself to a lifetime of substandard earnings, but that's what she wants to do with her life. Should the parent get his way because he knows best? Sure, studying law is probably a better use of time and resources than making games, but is a miserable, unmotivated lawyer better off than a happy, motivated video game creator? And then consider that we are not LiS' parents, but merely a bunch of fans. The other day, I read a story about Yoshiyuki Sadamoto, the character designer for Neon Genesis Evangelion. Apparently, he's super-sick of Evangelion and would rather do literally anything else, but is shackled to the series because that's what the fans want and that's what his bosses therefore are interested in making. "It's a franchise I don't really want to work on anymore at this point – but it's an important franchise in Japan and there are many fans, so I take it seriously," is what he said. "As an artist, the feeling that shakes me is 'why do we spend money on projects that aren't new ideas or new stories?' I know that's how the industry works, but I wonder." I don't know how that line makes you feel, but it fills me with pity. The last thing I want to see is LiS eternally shackled to Liberation Day, endlessly revising. Fans have a right to criticize, but after a certain point, they'd probably be better off making their own game than trying to force LiS to match their ideals. [RE]turn, from what I understand, is something fun they decided to do on their own. It's not meant to appease fans dissatisfied with LibDay; it's a lark and a bit of lagniappe for players. And clearly they enjoyed making it, considering how much effort they put into it. If LiS is having some much-needed fun with [RE]turn, then who am I to deny them that? The reality is that they've worked hard on three main Sunrider entries and a spinoff. They probably need some time off to let the well refill, hence their work on Starnova. Once they get that out of their system, they'll be back to work on a proper Sunrider sequel again, and they'll be in better shape to do a good job. But that in and of itself MAKES NO SENSE FOR YOU TO SAY - this is something we have already seen Samu is willing to do; he is already willing to put time and effort into this stuff and do so for something that is arguably twice as complicated and nuanced as making a mid-game arc would have been. Your saying "human beings and not automatons" is a misnomer - a writer publishing for their own sake is different from one running a game series; he has to strike a middle ground because once he has a fan-base, he DOES have an obligation to them just as much as he does to himself. Especially if it's got (J)RPG elements. If we were talking about a BOOK, you might have had a point and even then only from one perspective - but we're not. And that's not even counting if there is or isn't a clear-cut deficiency between current and prior works. But you know what the funny thing is? It's that EITEHR WAY this is invalid because nobody was asking Samu to change anything - only to ADD TO IT. And he's shown he's willing to do that - just that he hasn't done it in the way that people really wanted to see. That argument doesn't fly for me - this isn't a case of a parent and child. This is a case of game and it's community - if anything, Samu would be the PARENT in this comparison, not the child, and the community would be the "children", with the situation being a case of a parent not acknowledging concerns voiced about how he's doing things. And unless you take all factors into account and find a MIDDLE-ROAD, you would be unhappy no matter what path you pick. Consider that this situation is pretty much nothing like you're describing it - you're trying to make it seem like one side is claiming or forcing more obligation then the other when it's actually a case of EQUAL obligation. What you're saying comes across more like an attempt to say Samu's fans are supposed to be more obligated to him then he is to them (or at least that's how I see it), and that just does not fly when you're trying to make a game community. That next argument also doesn't fly for me - because once again, Samu's shown he's willing to do this. He's willing to keep expanding LibDay, but it's going to have friction anyway because it doesn't rectify the issues people had with LibDay in the first place - the core story. And nobody's even asking him to change it - just stretch it out to make the pacing flow better. But that's just it - pitiful or not, that's often the PRICE of being an artist or famous in any sense; once you get known for something, you can NEVER change that. Harrison Ford's always going to be famed as Han Solo even long after he hangs up the holster, Robert Downey .Jr's always going to be seen as Iron Man long after he retires the armor, Mark Hamill's always going to be seen as the Joker and Luke Skywaker even after he puts away the clown makeup and the lightsaber - eventually it gets old and you either move on or want to move on to different things, but it doesn't change the fact that they are part of who you are, and you have to address that. LibDay is brought up so much because it's considered the ONE BLOTCH on what's been a good series, and just one extra arc could have fixed all of that - one arc that wouldn't have taken any more or less effort then what was ALREADY done for [RE]Turn alone. You keep asking "why", but fail to look at what's already been done and say "why not?" It's not "endlessly revising" - it's one EXPANSION, and one that doesn't require changing how the game ends or the overall vision. It's nowhere near as complex as you're making it out to be, and I'd think they would have enjoyed the satisfaction of having to just get it over with and never need to worry about it again - saying "you can't please everyone" is a misnomer; you just have to please the core fans you inspired with this, and a mid-game arc would have done that. But likewise, if they're going to put that much work into an optional and therefore non-essential expansion, who are you to deny people asking they show the same care for their own main story that they do to "fanservice" or spin-offs or the like? "The reality" is that [RE]Turn is just another spin-off that, no matter how fun it might be on it's own, doesn't add or fix anything and if anything gives the impression he'd rather turn away from problems or create AU's then go back and fix their main product - and in LibDay's current state, whatever narrative issues don't get addressed now ("railroad-shotgun romance, Kayto suddenly not paying attention to any of the crew, Asaga's breakdowns, Sola's reversal to stoicism, ect) will plague the future entries - they won't be escaped no matter what, so clearing it now only makes sense.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 21, 2016 11:25:41 GMT -8
A good point, longtimelurker, but I hope you'll forgive me for keeping the thread off topic a bit longer. Sharr, although I'm looking forward to [RE]turn, I sympathize with your viewpoint. That said, I think Magpie is correct. What appears to be an easy addition to a storyline may easily not be, particularly if a writer has a preexisting plan. George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" is remarkable because the first book is great, the second book even better, and the third book even better than that. But it was after the third book that the trouble started. Martin had planned to leave things on a cliffhanger, then pick up the story a number of years later in the fourth book, with a bunch of new characters. The fans completely blew up, and understandably so, since they were very invested in the characters they'd read about up to that point and wanted to know what happened next. The thought of skipping over all that and maybe getting a little bit in flashbacks was unbearable. Martin's publisher, alarmed by the fan response, started putting pressure on him, and eventually Martin himself came around to the fans' way of thinking and picked up the fourth book where the third finished. The series has drifted ever since and been plagued by numerous delays. Martin was clearly not planning on having to flesh out the intervening years, and as a result, the series has essentially expanded laterally instead of moving forward. New characters are constantly being introduced, making the storyline sprawl even wider, and yet there's very little progress to speak of. It's the curse of getting what you wished for: The fans succeeded in changing the writer's plans to suit their tastes -- but at what cost? It's one thing for a fan to say, "Just fill out the middle a bit," but how do you know if Love in Space is capable of doing that? And if they do botch it, then who's to blame at that point? LiS or the fans? I've said this before, but Love in Space must ultimately rise or fall on their own merits. If they end up making a mess of the series, then so be it; don't give them the option of blaming the fans for how things turn out. But the problem with that viewpoint is [RE]Turn itself - all the effort that's gone into making a non-cannon storyline with eighteen different endings and a script twice as big as LibDay's whole one, and you really expect me to believe that was any more or less easy then putting in a mid-game arc with two or three choices would have been? Particularly an arc that wouldn't have changed anything in the story - only expanded on it and reinforced said preexisting plan? That analogy's flawed to me - LibDay's actual release was what got flack for having flaws in it and it wasn't fan-pressure that did that; it was because he thought (and still does think apparently) it was fine as is. It was fan pressure that got V2.00 and [RE]Turn going in the first place, so in this case it arguably DID improve the game and force a forward development by pushing to build on what was taken as a very linear narrative - for stories, especially in games, you CAN'T move forward without moving laterally as well because if there's not enough character/plot-development to justify the move forward, it falls apart. What you're advocating is an opposite extreme - progress without build-up - and it's what made so many people upset with LibDay to begin with. Trying to levy blame on one "side" or the other is a semantical blame-game that solves nothing. Again, the issue with this claim is [RE]Turn itself. Far as I'm concerned, it's absolute proof that Love in Space is both fully capable of this and that they knew enough of what people wanted at this point not to botch it - all the effort and good writing in it could have been done for a mid-game storyline.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 21, 2016 11:13:54 GMT -8
But that's just it - YOU'VE been trying to take something of a moral high ground this whole argument, from trying to say "we can't judge it because it's incomplete" to "it's heavily subjective" to (of course), the "that's double-barreled" claim and quite a few other snide-sarcastic quips no different from me. My only issue is that I'm blunt - that doesn't make what I'm saying any less valid. If anything, it makes people (like you) who refuse to debate because of such a petty reason as how it's worded look... well, for lack of a better word, petty. I mean, it's the internet - people say what they think. If you can't handle that, how do you expect to hold a conversation - let alone a debate? One who speaks for the status quo versus one who speaks for challenging the status quo. I don't know, I was raised with maintaining the status quo being the paramount moral high ground and challenging the status quo being something less so. But then again I was raised in an environment where self censorship both in speech and thought is implied as proper etiquette. Since it's the internet and it seems I am allowed to speak my view, I will do despite it being against my natural inclinations. The internet, indeed people say what they think. It's a frontier where the only rules and laws are set up by its users. You speak of debate and expecting to hold a proper conversation. It is to my view that this debate you bring up is no longer a major concern, the users do not wish to hold this conversation. It has been grounded and halted, yet you persist. Freedom of speech is a wonderful concept, but those who take it for granted do not realize it comes with a cost. A social cost. The cost of repeatedly stating the points you have made many times. Your posts here are not for debating, they are not for conversing. They are statements. They are statements which if lucky enough will be seen by the developers of the game. They are an opinion formulated by an individual, a proclamation expressing the views and wishes of an individual's rationale for the greater community. They have been heard, you need not state them again. It is not a necessity to pursue in spreading your point of view. I have no right to stop you, but remember the costs to your persistence. Actually, since I never once claimed it to be anything but my opinions, they're not really statements. And in many cases the reason I state them is because someone else has started it up again stating their own beliefs - and there are other topics it ties into such as [RE]Turn, so it had relevance to bring up. Plus, repitition of that scale isn't exactly something anyone else here is innocent of it - Magpie's guilty of trying to repeatedly argue "cannot judge Sunrider because the series is incomplete" over and over. Plus it doesn't even seen like my reputation of it is the problem - it feels like Magpie has more issue with the way I say it rather then my saying it.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 20, 2016 21:12:31 GMT -8
@sharr - Haha no thanks, I think we are done here. Also please don't try and take a moral high ground with 'derailment' it just looks arrogant, this is a topic you have baited out and yet somehow you have demonstrated another situation of why people just do not bother engaging with you, I am personally going to follow that trend and get back to my weekend as it has been quite a long week and I need the detox. But that's just it - YOU'VE been trying to take something of a moral high ground this whole argument, from trying to say "we can't judge it because it's incomplete" to "it's heavily subjective" to (of course), the "that's double-barreled" claim and quite a few other snide-sarcastic quips no different from me. My only issue is that I'm blunt - that doesn't make what I'm saying any less valid. If anything, it makes people (like you) who refuse to debate because of such a petty reason as how it's worded look... well, for lack of a better word, petty. I mean, it's the internet - people say what they think. If you can't handle that, how do you expect to hold a conversation - let alone a debate?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 20, 2016 21:08:48 GMT -8
Sharr... Canon. Repeat after me. Canon. There is no Canon. Claude is the Canon Godfu. The Sunrider has a Vanguard CANNON. Edit: Besides the sheer insane level of foreshadowing and character goodness is a good addition to the setting as a whole. You've been arguing the exact same points with the same half dozen people for months now. It might be time to let the matter rest then restart everything when there's another blip of Sunrider content. THAT's what you focus on? My grammar? Look, I rely on an auto-spellcheck on my macbook-pro - and it has an annoying habit of correcting words but not sentence-contexts. It's really not something I can help since I don't often pay that close attention to my spelling unless it's underlined in red and therefore something the spellcheck couldn't correct on it's own. So I ask you forgive me if errors like that persist. Edit: Yes, but Academy had all that too - and that didn't make any closer to being an addition that impacted the main story. Academy was a spin-off, and [RE]Turn pretty much is as well; it should have been marketed as such instead of being a supposed addition to the main game's story. And like Academy, nothing in it is anything we either didn't already know or was anything we couldn't have found out/will find out playing the main game's later entries. And the reason I "haven't let it rest" is because any future "blips" are going to have to make up for these same exact deficiencies anyway - they'll have to be addressed sooner or latter, so why not now in the full-priced game they were part of when the maker is putting this much extra work into said game post-release anyway? Plus, it takes two to tango - just pointing that out.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 20, 2016 20:05:49 GMT -8
Well now I have had the chance to give [Re]turn a play through I would actually say in a way it does offer a story expansion, the arcs are spin offs true but the actual details and perspectives are accurate to the main game. It is certainly an interesting way to write the content, well played Samu - I will try and do some proper writing up in the feedback thread when I have had a chance to play a bit more. 'Samu and co wouldn't do anything to actually fix the problems in the prior story/keep trying to push on atop a faulty foundation':At the end of the day Sharr it is not because LiS are ignoring the player feedback as additional content has been added in the form of 2.00 and the DLC, the issue is very much you have made your opinion and you are adamant that your way is the fix to the problem when in reality that is not how real solutions happen. Writing a story is no easy feat especially when you have quite a large target audience, even a slight change means the rest of the content would have to be reviewed and sections re written to match the changes - sure it would be nice but is it viable when we do not yet have all the story pieces for Sunrider? Who knows, maybe while you feel the relationship with Chigara is forced it might stem into a bigger issue that shapes her personality as well as her allegiance in future games. It is a catch 22 where sure they can keep on revising content however there is always going to be something wrong no matter how many iterations are made and there are always going to be individuals who will point these out and call for change. LD is not perfect and while I agree that the pacing could have been taken down a couple of notches it is still far from being an unworkable plot line, it is just not yet completed. 'If anything, given how much effort was ALREADY pumped into [RE]Turn thus far even though it doesn't impact the story at all, it'd actually be more accurate to say it's "delusional" for you to think otherwise - all the effort he's already done could have just gone into making a new mid-game arc':Considering this is a free DLC I am pretty sure this entitles the writer to have fun and enjoy a set scenario if he so wishes, if I wanted to read crowd contributed content I would purchase a copy of 'Hypersphere - Anonymous' instead. [Re]turn was never marketed or promoted as an answer to story feedback, it was promoted as additional 'what if' for fans of the Sunrider cast narrative and this was what we were expecting following the announcement considering the whole 'no “canon” outcome'. 'Vaen and Samu say, that DOES look like the case - like they think just pumping out content until people shut up means they actually fixed any of the things people complained about':An extension on the ending and a multi route DLC and you are accusing them of pumping out content? Also fix is heavily subjective as it would assume that the complaints show something that is broken when in fact you are talking about plot points getting addressed which surprise, this is not yet the complete Sunrider. I have no problem saying a game should be able to stand on its own two feet outside of its complete arc but LD is far from not being able to do this. I also find it moderately funny that you quote yourself to Samu saying 'the people who thought it was fine were the ones on the "far edge of the general community consensus."' when if you use the Steam review data there is a correlation from the Steam reviews going from 'mixed' (mid 50%'s) during 1.00 to mostly positive (76% at this time) for 2.00, last time I checked 76% is greater than 24% unless you really think that double-barreled poll of yours is more significant than one of the platforms selling the game... Again, they're not cannon to the main story - they have no actual impact on the timeline of Sunrider. Ergo, they are not a story expansion - they are a spin-off in the same vein as Academy was. 1) No - it very much does seem to be that case, because what they did wasn't what was asked. People wanted more MID-GAME agency and story - they wanted something that either gave them more options and control over the main story or, failing that, expansions that paced the pre-existing story to a better degree. Second - again, no; you literally WOULD NOT NEED TO EDIT ONE SINGLE THING. All you would have to do is create an extra arc to go between the start and the Battle of Cera - hell, it should actually be EASIER to do because it's working toward a solid end/a lead-up to what we see in the endgame (show Kayto having a date with Chigara, show Chigara breaking away from Asaga out of fear of what she is, ect) so it CANNOT deviate from the endgame and DOES NOT need changes to be made to anything at all. You're seriously overestimating how hard this would be and overlooking the fact that, even disregarding the prior point, it wouldn't be any more less time and effort then what was already put into both V2.00 and [RE]Turn. You'd only need to write a new arc to bridge between the start and end - nothing before or after would need any such revisions (take Mass Effect; the series had plenty of good DLC - with almost none of it requiring the entire series' script/parts of the rest of it be rewritten for it). And if a non-cannon spin-off like [RE]Turn is viable to Samu, why not a mid-game arc that would make LibDay's core story as a whole more appealing to the fans? In short... everything you said in that first paragraph amounts to semantics or ignores the fact that as much effort to make it work has already been put into [RE]Turn - hell, part of it even contradicts your own argument AND Samu's because, if your claims were true, there's be no such thing as bad writing by any standard at all. 2) I'd ask you not throw around words like "entitled" if you're going to try and lecture me on this stuff - because it's easy to turn around. Obligations are as much a part of writing as entitlements are - and if you're going to put that much free work into something that's not only bigger and better then what you were charging 25$ for, why not do it for something that would have made that price tag justifiable for the main series? It's not adding to LibDay's story - it's just making it a bundle-package that has a main-series game (LibDay) and a AU game ([RE]Turn). And I'm sorry, but that's where you're WRONG - again, look at the quote from before; it was marketed as a Story Expansion, not as an alternate-universe spin-off. And if the comments from Vaen are any indication, it WAS created toward rectifying complaints (lack of story, length, pacing, replay value, ect) - it was not marketed correctly otherwise - and your claims are another misnomer, because "no cannon outcome" is something applicable to EVERY CHOICE in the Sunrider series, so saying that didn't prove anything at the time. 3) "An extension on the ending and a multi-route (non-cannon) DLC" do not address what LibDay's actual problem was; the pacing and execution of the MAIN STORY. Yes I am accusing them of that because it equates to an "if we just keep pumping out more new content, we don't need to fix the stuff that people didn't like in the old content!" - or rather, a "forget/bury it, don't fix it" mentality. More content for your money isn't bad per-se, but it does not rectify the problems of the original game itself and in some cases just rubs it in. LibDay could not stand on it's own - the fact that it took more content to get a better reception seems to prove that. And while we're on this topic, take a look at yourself Magpie - at every turn you're going out of the way to try and level some self when the fact of the matter is I have NEVER once said this was anything but my own opinion. And at this point, I'd like to ask you stop with the broken-record "we can't judge an incomplete product" stuff - yes we can; a series is a combination of several complete products, each of which can be judged at any time and which opinions on tend to tell a developer what was best and least liked in their game. Each entry is "complete" in an individual sense, so it is viable to be judged. Saying otherwise is pretty much a fallacy. Likewise, I also find it funny that you're ignoring how many of these are UPDATED REVIEWS that were changed/reposted by previous reviewers to reflect an approval of the V2.00 alterations, as well as how most of those "positive" reviews criticize the game's "linear plot", "lack of choices", "short story", "cardbord-characters" and so-forth, and that the positive rating is simply because it's either better then it was at launch or not the worst game ever... you know, INSTEAD of your own double-barreled comment? Or the fact that whether or not LibDay itself was good or bad is SECONDARY to polling what it's big issue was (since all games good or bad have at least one big issue) or polling what people would most like to see done for it? Now, if you want to keep discussing this, could we take it to a different thread? I don't know what problem you have with me Magpie, but I think we've derailed this particular thread enough - I'm not against continuing but let's do it in a more appropriate venue, kay?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 20, 2016 16:33:25 GMT -8
The pending DLC and the future of the series are two separate things, I am not sure where this mentality that [Re]turn was going to be a magic wand for all people's criticisms came from. Granted if the series became all about releases set in their own universe through DLCs the two topics together might be worth considering but this is not the case at the current moment in time, I think some people are a bit delusional if they are expecting a story overhaul with the game already out and LiS preparing for their next project. Anyway the reality is that we will have to wait for the next Sunrider game before we see what feedback was taken into account - I am not really sure what some of these parties are actually gearing for if not this? In terms of just data, the game's pretty much gotten consistently positive reviews since V2.0 launched so I don't think it's really that bad. I'm sure people who enjoyed the game will be back to enjoy REturn. And the game's pretty damned long with the additional content, so that should make most people happy. Remember this is the internet, some people just cannot find happiness in the moment.No, they're really not. In fact, saying that's probably the biggest misnomer possible - it sets the precedent that, if the things LibDay were criticized for carry over into the future games, Samu and co wouldn't do anything to actually fix the problems in the prior story/keep trying to push on atop a faulty foundation. If anything, given how much effort was ALREADY pumped into [RE]Turn thus far even though it doesn't impact the story at all, it'd actually be more accurate to say it's "delusional" for you to think otherwise - all the effort he's already done could have just gone into making a new mid-game arc. He's already stopped to keep adding onto LibDay - there really isn't anything that could have kept this from being a story overhaul aside from his own choice, nor was there anything that bred an expectation for it being beyond his power to do so. Also, to use one of Samu's own quotes; "Love in Space is excited to announce Sunrider Liberation Day: [RE]turn, the FREE DLC story expansion to Sunrider Liberation Day. " Note the bolded, underlined sentence; "story expansion". Ergo, people were naturally under the impression that, if you're going to create a story expansion, it's going to build on or have some impact on the story the way the 2.00 arguably had - not that it was an AU that is, for all intents and purposes, Academy 2.0 with no impact on anything whatsoever. If they wanted to avoid that kind of belief, they should have marketed [RE]Turn as a spin-off instead of a "story expansion", because that really doesn't seem to be what it is. Based on what Vaen and Samu say, that DOES look like the case - like they think just pumping out content until people shut up means they actually fixed any of the things people complained about. What they're "gearing for" is that LibDay be a bit more comprehensive - you don't have to change what's there; just execute it better. The story that's there isn't really horrendous - it's failures were because it was badly executed; it tried to cram too much into too small a timeframe instead of pacing it out over two or three "arcs" the way FA and MoA did (that and the sex-scene with Chigara - but making that optional wouldn't even require the romance be undone; just making the speed of it determinant).
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 20, 2016 14:36:19 GMT -8
Now now, let's not get harsh with our words here. I'm not being harsh. Trust me, this is actually pretty civil by the standards of debating I'm used to seeing on other forums
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 20, 2016 14:35:27 GMT -8
Yeah, I am accepting it because I am fine with it? Not saying it is my game of the year but I still got a kick out of it and poured a sizable number of hours in. Also I am not sure why you are trying to pick at the example I made for why your poll is double-barreled as at no point do I say 'people wanted more end game content' but I did say 'may want', generally you measure one thing at a time with a poll to avoid skewing the data with ambiguous directions. On a general note after doing some catch up reading in the 'it should be possible to spoiler to spoiler' thread I think I get the vibe of what you are trying to do here and can tell this discussion is heading in a direction that isn't my cup of tea. I think... I am going to bail on this one. No - I mean more like you're just "content". Plus, one of the whole purposes of a poll IS seeing a general direction out of an ambiguous mass. What you're suggesting is closer to the purpose of a DISCUSSION, not a poll. As for the poll, it's pretty much what Samu himself would have suggested - or are you honestly going to tell me he wouldn't have told me to make a poll if I really wanted to see for myself? At this point... well, to be honest, I'm wondering if you have some personal issue with me(?)
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 20, 2016 12:29:23 GMT -8
Eh, this poll should really just be 'what was wrong' on its own and then explain what you would change in the comments. People may want more end game content but that doesn't mean it was wrong in its current state because of this. Personally I am fine with Liberation Day as it is as of 2.00 and I am glad to hear they are still adding more content along with standing by their guns about leaving the main story alone for now (at least until next time). If I was to offer a piece of feedback for 'next time on Sunrider' I would like to see more of a balance between gameplay and the writing as there is still a lot of untapped potential about the story's universe / the politics that could be weaved in, the events of Ongess is a good example of this showing local community resentment towards the Alliance. If as previously suggested that it was felt that gameplay fixing took too much time out of the writing then I hope this is used as a basis for the the script to be prioritised with the gameplay built on top, not necessarily cut but investment focused on the bones before you lay on the meat. Oh and also going slightly off topic, hopefully [Re]turn has a reference in it that confirms Starnova is going to be the same universe as the current Sunrider arc (as it would be pretty awesome to have exposition created even when Sunrider is not getting worked on). That just sounds more like you're accepting what's there instead of thinking it actually improved what was wrong, though. Also, last I checked, it wasn't end-game content people wanted - it was mid-game content (or at least if the Steam reviews or Marx's commentary was any indication). And having people "explain what you would change in the comments" is kinda redundant - the overall point is whether or not what's there is or isn't satisfactory.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 20, 2016 10:59:17 GMT -8
Placing this here as something of a "test the waters" to see what the general consensus on Liberation Day is nowadays. Am under the impression it was more acceptable then before but generally not perfect, but want to know for sure.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 20, 2016 10:51:54 GMT -8
Eh I dunno, I get the feeling Sharr's pretty much on the far edge of the general community consensus. I don't think very many people would be pleased if we retcon the main story. ... I'm sorry, but is that supposed to be a joke? Have you even LOOKED at the community consensus? If anything, what you're saying is pretty much the opposite - the people who thought it was fine were the ones on the "far edge of the general community consensus." Rude question here, but where are you even getting those numbers from? Besides, you misinterpreted my whole point - NOBODY was asking you to RETCON anything, Samu. They were asking you to LENGTHEN AND EXPAND it - to space it out with more build-up. What's in LibDay would have worked better had it been built up over a longer period. People wouldn't have hated the forced Chigara romance and everything else had it all been built up over an entire extra arc in-between launching from Helion and arriving at Cera - you tried to cram too much into too small a time frame.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 20, 2016 0:06:01 GMT -8
Well I'm sure Sharr will continue to think what he will of the game. Eh, I enjoyed a lot of animes which other people thought were horrible, so to each their own. Some things are truly subjective I guess. In terms of just data, the game's pretty much gotten consistently positive reviews since V2.0 launched so I don't think it's really that bad. I'm sure people who enjoyed the game will be back to enjoy REturn. And the game's pretty damned long with the additional content, so that should make most people happy. The thing with that though is that most of those positive reviews seem based on a comparison to what the game was before, not on it's own merits since then. They're reviewing it's improvements - that's not the same as it being a great game as opposed to simply better then it was on launch (which if the early reviews are any indication, most people didn't find that hard to imagine doing ). Again, what people wanted wasn't simply more content for the sake of more content - what they wanted was more MID-GAME content that better expanded on the main story itself. I know full well I'm being an ass, but it seems to me like you're not even really looking at what people said was wrong with the game - you're just content to pump out as much as possible until people shut up either way or are just numbly content with having it better then it was as opposed to the good game they wanted, especially since the number of people who enjoyed LibDay doesn't seem to be as big as those who had issue with it. There's a difference between being seeing other's views as subjective and being biased about your work - and I'm ballsy enough to say I think you're coming close to crossing that line.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 19, 2016 23:58:48 GMT -8
Well I'm gonna do something stupid and respond to Sharr... as well as though include some random thoughts. Also is it just me or has this gotten really off topic? Oh yes, I should note that I am a Kickstarter backer. so yeah. Sharr's response to Vaen -Vaen's " ery much related to the main story" Already from Sunrider Academy we have seen these games are linked. Academy showed us Chigara was a prototype, someone who knew Kayto was basically god, and confirmed Sola multi-dimensional time travel. So why wouldn't things that occur in REturn not also come up again in the main line. For example perhaps Ava's eye gives off a signal to the Alliance or Mining Corp, it also supposedly has a antagonist who "someone whose face we haven't seen much but all remember well." as such will most likely be an issue in main line, and perhaps a solution to Crow (later touched on). =Sharr's "you coulda had this but nope!" bit One thing you should have gotten so far is that REturn HAS A END. In other words this is in fact exactly what all those who thought this was the end technically expected (most likely didn't predicted how the story would go, but that's why you buy it). However the main line didn't end here it continued onward, but what if it ended, what if there was no need for another chapter. In this since it does rectify that because it is the "a end". And if people don't like how the main story is going (aka not being done yet) they can however solve this dislike by finding one in what I'm guessing to be more story heavy dimension. (I feel like adding more to this but can't think of it right now) Sharr's response to Samu -_- 1. I liked Liberation Day... in fact I felt they added a bit much in 2.0, as I went on the roller coaster of Liberation Day 1.0 to the the falling action of 2.0. I feel the lack of choice only gives more credence to Kayto effectively being broken and chigara being that crutch. Now if they were to add something to the story I feel it should occur before Sunrider sinking and not after (side note not including more choices). For the most part Liberation Day was setting up the field for the next. As such certain things had to happen; in a precise way. Also that chunk wasn't that much, at least I don't feel it was. 2. I will respond to 1 comment this " the big complaint(s) was lack of player agency and a rushed plot." -_- I pretty damn that is EXACTLY what REturn will solve. If 18 endings don't solve this, then I suggest that you go play Fate/Stay Night or Kara no Shojo instead, without a guide. These are two game... I feel you may like (maniacal laughter can be heard some where in MURICA) Edit - wait, wait... I forgot to advertise Princess Waltz, a game I know you will hate as if forces you into romancing a character (the 1 I hated almost the most), and the other heroine you romance is decide by 1 Siscon Choice. But other than that the card game I felt was pretty fun. (blinks edit 2) There is also School Days... I also like it (not choosing a choice is a choice), maybe play Homeward it's a old game that I like but it's made by a certain person a know you "love". 3. I'm pretty certain he saying REturn has no canon route. Like for instance Sunrider Academy doesn't have a canon route. (I feel like I should add more here as well, but if I'm understanding Sharr's thoughts correctly he thinks Samu is saying what just happened in Liberation Day isn't canon. If so well my reply solves that) Well I think that's it, so yeah, went so long to responding to a Sharr comment. Anyway I may or may not reply to a reply to this. I am a lurker after all. 1) That doesn't change what I said, though. Sunrider Academy showed us things we already suspected by the time of MoA - there were hints to future things, but nothing out of what was CONFIRMED in Academy (Chigara being a Prototype, Sola being a time-traveler/reality-traveler, ect) was anything we didn't already know. Sunrider Academy also didn't have balancing and length issues with it's story (or at least not on LibDay's level). Moreover, if that's the goal, it would have been better off as a separate release/spin-off instead of being treated/marketed like an expansion to LibDay's story - which it really isn't. 2) But that MAKES IT WORSE in a way; it rubs in the fact that LibDay could have had a better ending - something people wanted - but it won't get one. And LibDay 2.0's current end is just as much a definitive end in it's own way; it's like transitioning into an entirely new series/season of a series/next book in the lineup/whatever metaphor you want to use. Something having an end is not the same as it being the final end for the whole story, nor has there been very many stories who's ends have been so conclusive that they were impossible to make a continuation off of, be it far into the future or with a different cast entirely. Short version - even if the main line ended here, that's not the same as being the end of the series either way. And... honestly, that's a rather insulting way to say it - it comes across like saying "Don't like our story? Fuck you, then - here's some fanfiction stuff that does nothing to change what you didn't like in our story." That's gonna piss people off more likely if you say it like that. 3) The thing about "roller coasters" is that they're a dime-a-dozen nowadays; you can get action and explosions and tension almost anywhere, but if your buildup to that point isn't enough to entice then it's just the same as jingling keys in front of a kid; it has no real purpose but numb entertainment. Liberation Day exact problem was that it was treated as just a set-up for the next game - and as a result, the things that were meant to be the foundation for that (Chigara's identity, the loss of the Sunrider, the massacre at Cera, ect) weren't done compellingly enough to build off of the set-up of what came before. Look at the number of comments about LibDay's story being it's biggest weakness - even people who liked it admitted it was lacking, the biggest issue EXACTLY being lack of choices or, if the former wasn't an option, drawing out and building up what was there pre-Cera to a better extent over a longer storyline (showing Kayto asking Chigara on dates or the like, showing crew interaction, Asaga losing it, ect). 4) But that's just it - I DON'T think it solves it because, for all intents and purposes, it's a COMPLETELY SEPARATE STORY. You can't fix a story's flaws with a new story if it's an alternate universe and, therefore, is a stand-alone entity from the former. None of those 18 endings have any application whatsoever in rectifying those issues - they do not add the MID-GAME content people wanted, nor give any agency to the actual MAIN STORY that people wanted it to have. If [RE]Turn was part of the main story (hell, even Muv-Luving it would work better), you'd have had a point - this however is basically going to be Academy 2.0; it's a separate timeline that's fun to go through on it's own but ultimately is optional (and therefore NON-ESSENTIAL to the main series) and not doing a damn thing to fix what was wrong in the main story. 5) That's not the point; it hardly matters because [RE]Turn doesn't impact the cannon story of the main games to begin with. And no, you misinterpreted me - Samu looks to be saying Sunrider has no solid cannon, but obviously it does since it has a "common route" thus far. My claim was that saying that Sunrider in general doesn't have a cannon is a misnomer. Hell, even Sunrider Academy technically has a cannon route (The events of Sola's route definitely happened because it stabilizes all Sola replicas, ensuring her existence in all other realities including those of the other routes - if that makes sense(?))
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 19, 2016 17:17:25 GMT -8
I'm sure Vaendryl has his own valid opinions on the matter, but my opinion is that the dlc's not intended to address current complaints about the story. Plenty of people enjoyed the main story for what it is. I don't see reason to change it. The main story was meant to spark strong reactions and it will continue to do so. The dlc's just more content for the fans who liked the franchise. I think the only complaint the dlc is meant to address is that the game doesn't provide enough bang for the buck. I think the dlc will put the game more in line with AAA-tier Japanese productions of the equivalent price range in terms of play time, and that's the only thing which we're seeking to address. The main reason I went forward with the dlc is that it seemed like an entertaining scenario. My thinking is that REturn provides a bunch of new possible routes Shields' adventure can take after Liberation Day. There is no canon route for the franchise except the route you chose to follow so nothing we ever make will be canon. I hate to be the critic (since that's what I feel like I always am), but... here I go. 1) Samu, I don't mean to be rude, but... did you SEE the comments that were made about LibDay? Marx alone, even though he was one of the more moderate critics, wrote an entire thesis about the things LibDay failed to do. "Plenty" wasn't "most" if the critiques were anything to go by, and even people who enjoyed the story "for what it is" still felt it was lacking and should have been done better - if anything, I can't see any reason why NOT to change it. You sparked a strong reaction, but it certainly didn't look like a good one - especially considering you had to break off a chunk of the next game and stick it onto LibDay's end as what looked like appeasement. 2) I think that kind of belief is missing the whole point of the criticism. It doesn't always matter how much content is in the game - but it does always matter whether or not the content that's there is worthwhile. People criticized Metal Gear Solid: Ground Zeros' sell-prince of about 40$ not justifying the short playtime, but the game itself got very high marks That's because even though the game was pretty much a prologue level to the upcoming "Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain", what was there in those short hours was regarded as some of the best damn gameplay of the generation with worthwhile enough content to satisfy - ergo, it had people defending it as well, including critics. If people feel what's there is worth it, they'll pay for it - play time and size alone don't cut it, even though they're still a consideration. If that's the only thing you're seeking to address, I respectfully feel it won't be enough. Short content was ONE complaint, but it was not the BIGGEST complaint; the big complaint(s) was lack of player agency and a rushed plot. They didn't just want more content - they wanted the original story lengthened so that what was there felt more satisfying. 3) That's kinda apples and oranges compared to what people are complaining about, though - by "cannon", people meant something that ties with the current main timeline. You can say "there is no cannon route", but that's inconsequential - the events and stroyline happens (Fall of Cera, Battle of Far Port, Battle of Hellion, Liberation Day Massacre, ect); that their resolutions are optional doesn't change that. Ergo, those are Sunrider's "cannon". [RE]Turn falls into what you call "Elsworld/Alternate Universe", which is totally separate from "cannon" in this sense because it's basically fandom-fuel - it only exists to entertain and has no bearing on the story you're following. Plus this claim kinda contradicts the claims I heard from Vaendryl about the force Chigara thing all being part of the "Common Route" (and therefore cannon) of Sunrider, since it does seem like you have a Cannon you're not willing to deviate from or think needs to be made more open-ended.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 19, 2016 17:16:41 GMT -8
Although it may not be attached to the main story directly (by using previous affection values etc) the subject matter is still very much related to the main story and I personally feel it addresses many of the complaints levied against it in the past quite decisively. I'd like to say more on the matter but I'm already touching the border of spoiler territory. Suffice it to say I'm looking forward to discussing REturn on the forums when it's finished. I really don't see how - if anything, it seems very much NOT related to the main story aside from being based off the timeline pre-ending. And no offense, but it can't really address any of the complaints about the main story if it's non-cannon and therefore does not affect and/or change anything that happened, let alone do so "decisively". In fact it might only be taken as a bigger insult because it comes across as a "you coulda had this but nope!" cock-tease which might piss people off worse even if the expansion is good in a stand-alone sense - because in a stand-alone sense... it's basically Academy 2.0 and NOT an actual rectification to what people felt was wrong with LibDay. I get you personally think otherwise... but after LibDay, I in turn personally can't take that claim at face value . Especially since even Samu himself says that's apparently not what he made it for.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 29, 2016 9:29:36 GMT -8
Speaking of story, what happened to chigara's ryder, liberty? Does it get destroyed along with the sunrider? Yeah I guess so, didn't see anyone towing the Liberty away during the escape or even a single comment regarding it, so that's the most probable outcome considering Lynn escaped in a pod with you. Huh now that I think about it that would be quite a twist if Cosette used the Liberty to escape the Sunrider if you choose to scrap her ryder haha. Btw guys, can we stop the discussion about semantics? We are literally discussing what nuance means at this point, IIRC that was brought up because I said that the twist about Claude being a "Goddess" instead of just a time traveler was dumb, we have already agreed about that so I guess there's nothing further to deal with in that direction right? ... I guess you have a point, there. Okay.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 28, 2016 18:36:46 GMT -8
Speaking of story, what happened to chigara's ryder, liberty? Does it get destroyed along with the sunrider? I'd imagine. The only one I could think of that would have piloted it was Lynn, and she stayed in the escape pod with Kayto. So it probably was in the hangar, abandoned, when the Sunrider went out. Unless it got jettisoned with other equipment or the like, but I digress since I don't know Ceren protocols for a sinking ship.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 28, 2016 14:48:23 GMT -8
Overall, sorry for the delay, I've been very busy this past days. Besides that, I've few to say. Sharr's post is a perfect example... of what fleshing out mean. And fleshing out is not nuance. The original Sunrider was great at fleshing out it's characters and plots, while Liberation Day was horrible at it. And to be honest Sharr, you're starting to seriously annoy me with painting me as stalwart defender of Liberation day while I spent at least 10 hours severely criticizing all of its writings failings (including a lot of what you say) and even the gameplay (which no one had dared before in the beta). That I can look with perspective because I saw it coming does not translate to "I like Lib Day and I want the series to die". I was even the one that first dared to criticize it when the second beta was barely out. Still, fleshing out is not what nuancing is, even if the vague definition can be similar. And as I said before, you can perfectly do without nuancing, development and fleshing out is enough, a lot of great works have done without it (for example, the Lord of the Rings has close to 0 nunace). Nuance is difference, subtlety and shades; everything in Sunrider is justified and explained, but that does not mean is nuanced. It's actually almost a technical point; part of the difficulty comes from the prose itself on a technical level. Nuance is when something ambiguous happens, when you're not entirely sure of what you're working for, or even if what you're doing is useful or not. Nuances are not battles or wars, but rebellions, suppression, in-fighting, doubts. Nuance is not fleshing your trope, but rather making a surprising step aside at the last moment. With nuance, when you're making a decision, you don't know what it really entails, you don't have a weight on the balance, but rather a set of premises and hopes: it's not deciding between the way and the means, it's finding 10 minutes later that your decision was worthless because your advisor manipulated what you knew and took it for you. Nuance can be bad, as a lot of times poorly delivered it can clash with the established setting. Gundam's main narrative is not nuanced in itself (though a few of its characters are) most of the times (Z Gundam did play with it a little, though not much). Dark Souls narrative is nuanced. Overall, again, I apologize for the delay, but I think continuing this makes no sense, we're clearly thinking of different things, and basically comparing apples with oranges, and we've severely gone off topic. NO - I'm sorry, but no. See, in Sunrider's case it's the opposite - the fleshing out is caused by the existence of nuance in the characters. You've misunderstood the whole point of my argument, Marx - which was that the way these characters were nuanced was what fleshed them out more. Fleshing out a character is largely dependent on them being nuanced, or else they're just a cut-out of something that's already been done before - you literally cannot flesh out a character without them having nuance in them. Fleshing out is tied to and often resultant from, if not a requirement of, nuancing a character and story, because this is what draws you in and makes you care enough about the setting and story to even start fleshing things out in the first place. The series as a whole was great with this until Liberation Day. ... in fact, I'm starting to wonder if you simply don't know how to differentiate the two (or maybe are doing the opposite and overgeneralizing the two), since saying this of Lord of the Rings and Gundam of all things is... well, I'm tempted to open with my thoughts here, but I'll suffice for saying "you need to re-watch them you somehow think that." Nuance in Sunrider existed from the very start in subtle shades regarding: - Asaga (obviously a stanch defender of justice with the freedom of mercantile work to carry it out through. She also doesn't seem like the kind of person content to pirates while PACT is out there, so she must have had some sort of reason to be isolated like she is, already implying a secret to her. She sees herself a hero, but she was a realistic one - opposite to how LibDay portrayed her) - Chigara (Shy and gentle, yet very intelligent and actually making active contributions to the ship every day with things like the short-range warp system. Her experience as a machinist was a subtle influencer to her social awkwardness as machines are easier to repair and fix then people are) - Icari (jaded and sardonic, her tsundere behavior was perfect for a mercenary and vice-versa, making her a more realistic spin on an age-old trope) - Sola (stoic and cold, she literally felt like somebody out of a different age well before we ever learned the full truth about her past, making her far more alien then the rest of the crew on first glance) - Claude (flamboyant and easy-going, she was portrayed as comic-relief but it was contrasted by her unconventional usefulness in combat with her Ryder, along with a perceptiveness of others that was both precise and helpful. Hell, Claude is arguably one of the most nuanced characters in the series since she always was helpful and supportive of others - even when detrimental to her own goals - without ever directly stating why; she just did it) - Ava (Official and stern, she was nuanced in the fact that she never actually felt overbearing as a character - she was always able to causally bring up the other side of the argument for Kayto to bounce off of, even in instances that it was the side she opposed to). Everything in Sunrider was justified after we were introduced to them - every character was introduced not only with their own personalities but in professions that would justify their behaviors well before we even learned about the where, why and how. Hell, Ava alone is a good example of this due to her relationship with Kayto, the exact nature of which we could guess at but was not actually revealed until near the end of MoA. Nuance also existed in every single major choice you made regarding: - Versta (Is helping the Alliance be ready sooner worth the lives I'm not saving now?) - Ongess (Is closure for those deaths worth leaving Ongess completely lawless and harming the effort against PACT?) - Helion (Is revenge or justice worth my crew?/is my crew worth the lives I'm abandoning?) None of these choices had set balances - all of them were just premises and hopes because there was no solid way of knowing what was going to be best or worst in the long run. It also existed in things you didn't have choice for, one example being Operation Wedding Crash as Ava points out that Kayto doesn't even know if rescuing Asaga would be better or worse for both of them or Ryuvia itself. And throughout every single choice, there is the question of whether or not these decisions will actually help you liberate Cera in the end. There were rebellions - Icari (albeit offscreen) turned on the crew to try and go after Kayto at Ongess, Kayto and Ava had a rebellion/argument against each-other during the Legion choice. There was suppression - Asaga suppressing her own feelings for her world even when deep down she wasn't sure it would do any good. There was in-fighting - between Icari and Kryska, between Kayto and Ava, ect. And more then anything, there were doubts - doubts in Icari about her life to this point, doubts in Chigara about whether or not she knew what love was, doubts in Asaga about her own capabilities as a 'Hero' or her friendship and feelings regarding Chigara and Kayto, doubts in Sola about the value of emotions amid the cold logic of war, and most of all there were doubts in Kayto as (no matter what choice or moral mindset he had) he struggled with both the ramifications of his actions and the effects and (possible non-)existence of his own humanity as the war went on. And TBH Marx, you're mixed up again here - I'm not saying you're a "stalwart defender of Liberation Day." I'd have only ever called you that had you claimed LibDay was perfect or had no faults, but that's not the case - rather it's that, for whatever reason, you tend try and make the rest of the series look lacking along with it. You've admitted LibDay had big faults, but I have seen you repeatedly try to downplay how bad these failings were, as well as chalk up the game's failure to "false expectations or the player", "comparisons to the old games" and "flaws universal to the series" instead of actually ever accepting the game flat-out failed on both it's own merits and that of the series. It's not that you want to defend LibDay as good - it's that you try to defend it as not being very bad. And the fact that you conveniently described nuance here using every single exact plot-element LibDay tried (and failed) to do seems to point that way even farther, because it feels like you're trying to say LibDay had more or equal nuance to the past games when it really didn't. There was subtlety and shades - nuance - throughout the Sunrider series; bluntly put, it really just looks to me like you simply don't want to acknowledge it because it would make LibDay look much worse then you want it to. Plus this is still on-topic since it still regards concerns about the story.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 21, 2016 1:03:38 GMT -8
You should get a quick look at the meaning of nuance, it has nothing to do with plot or pacing. As I said before, it does not even need to have something to do with being good. A subtle difference in or shade of meaning, expression, or soundSunrider has always been poor at nuance; you can see it from the characters and plots who are basically straight out tropes. Fleshed out tropes, but there's never an intention to delve out in those more minute differences. Asaga was the Optimist Hero of Justice TM (and even after Liberation Day she simply became a more mature Hero of Justice TM), Ava was the childhood friend who is now an ice queen, Icari a text-book tsundere nwith a bad past, etc. On villains you likewise had Cullen, the textbook fat aristocrat, Arcadius, an egomaniac who wants to conquer everything and knows about some "dark secrets", and Fontana who is the "good guy of the bad guys". The captain tortured by the death of his sister. Even the Alliance was like this, being a corrupt but seemingly decent democracy with a seemingly decent but ultimately "corrupt" (in the moral sense) Admiral. The plot and moral decisions also followed: First a fight against an Evil empire bent on conquering everything as you search for allies, later a your girl or the ship that killed your entire life decision, saving children or having and advantage at war. Even Ongess at the end also had a "the truth or your not-so-good allies" decision. Nuancing your work means adding extra details that makes a situation/plot/character more ambiguous and a lot harder to get the grip of. i.e. for example, in Versta the children instead of escaping from PACT were kidnapped by the diplomats as a result of a paranoid fear that what happened at Cera may be repeated (which due to the fact that Versta pretend to surrender, seems unlikely). That changes the whole decision and makes a lot harder to decide what you want to do, what is even correct, and what you must do. Nuance means going beyond basic meaning and situations and adding ambiguous factors. With the notable exception of Ongess, Sunrider tends to prefer to avoid that. It's not bad, as the situation and character are fleshed enough to come on their own (lack of nuance doesn't meant lack of character), and simplicity has a charm of its own. In fact, some even prefer it. The end result is that everything in Sunrider is sharp cut: you know in every moment which is the problem, what you have to do to solve it, who you have to fight, who is good and bad, and can describe each of your pilots in less than one line. On Claude, okay, I don't have any problems with that. I personally think you're mistaken, but it's something that we will see later. You're right it's a moot point right now. ... OK. I'm going to need to go on a tangent here - this is something I take a bit seriously. See, this bit about nuancel that's precisely my point - if you understand nuance so well, I don't get how you can say that Sunrider didn't have it. It has it and it did it good up until LibDay, and I honestly do not see how you believe otherwise even with this explanation. Sunrider has been pretty much the opposite - it's done very well, even stellar, with the use of nuance. Anyone can and has used a trope - it's making that trope not feel boring or tired that strikes the difference; Icari, Asaga and Ava were portrayed in ways that didn't make their concepts feel stale. They DID feel fleshed out, not just by their interactions and histories but even in how they functioned in missions and introductions. It's just like how Gundam has taken such templates and more often then not comes out with consistently-memorable characters, with even the ones you hate being memorable in their own way. The Alliance was shown as paranoid for a reason; PACT on their borders after the New Empire collapsed, upscale in piracy and lawlessness, ect. Even Gray became more human and understandable just in MoA upon showing he was the last of his dying lineage who was expected to win the war on his own the same as Kayto, making him as much a twisted mirror of the desperate pushed-to-the-limit MC as Fontana. Your argument doesn't feel like it works because it's far too generalized a claim - literally every single character and story under the sun would be factually devoid of nuance if the standard you're trying to use here was valid. Same for the plot and moral decisions - nearly every war in history starts with a legalized faction (Alliance) against an upstart faction or neighboring power (PACT, which BTW doesn't actually count as an Empire as opposed to a rival nation). Versta was also one of the nuanced decisions that rivaled Ongess - it intermixed personal vendettas with "what is best" regarding the whole situation, with the similarities between Icari and Kayto's victimizations at PACT's hands playing a role in that choice of "Will this help?" And the diplomat's actions are a perfect contrast because it seems to highlight Icari's argument that one can do more harm with an open hand then a closed fist - the diplomats being too good and generous at their job caused greater risk then if they'd just said no. That in turn throws a player off when they'd been resolved to throw these people away because now it's not just a statistic - these are good people who were genuinely trying to do whatever good they can; that's nuance. At Ongess, Ava also served as the counterbalance by pointing out the reverse argument for each side, which made it more a case of two warring factions instead of "good guys and bad guys"; that's nuance. Each choice dealt with different questions you face in war; - Slaves or Comm-Depot = "How far are you willing to go to wage war - and are stopping the soldiers more important, or is helping those the war has oppressed?" - Versta = "How far are you willing to go to possibly prevent more deaths elsewhere - and do you save the few in front of you or the many in the future who aren't yet at risk?" - Ongess = "How far are you willing to go to preserve a frail order - and who's order are you preserving anyway?" - Helion = "How far are you willing to take retribution - and is it for justice or revenge?" These are some of the core questions of war that are ALWAYS debated in just about every anime that has to do with giant mechas - and yet each one can and many times does offer new spins on the questions and how they are approached, Sunrider included. Again, this feels more like you stamping a generalized argument on the whole series rather then seeing what actually did or didn't mesh. And in looking at the series at a whole... again, I CANNOT see how you don't see nuance in the characters; - Asaga was a "hero", but she was one who was also a self-admitted opportunist in the very first meeting, tying anti-pirate duty with reward-collection. - Chigara was a "dere", but she was also one that actually felt useful not just functionally as ship engineer but as Asaga's confidant. - Claude was a "ditz", but she was one that was shown to actually be intelligent without any of it feeling fake. - Icari was a "tsundere", but she was a very natural behavior that, mixed with her backstory, was actually believable that she'd have that mindset and personality. - Kryska was a "trooper", but she was also an idealist and realist and ironically was one of the last people to judge because of it in many cases. - Ava was a "comrade", but she was one that had a very balanced connection with Kayto because she stable core to build Kayto's character off of. Therefore, I'm sorry, but I simply cannot - nay, refuse to believe - that you don't or can't see nuance in this series. And in all honesty... what you said here really just seems to hurt LibDay more, since a lot of your conclusions stem from the fact that LibDay flubbed up on delivering satisfying continuations of what was done in the rest of the series regarding Asaga's hero-complex, Arcadius' justifications and so-forth - the last games were nuanced; LibDay was not. The failure to "delve out in those more minute differences" seems to rest with LibDay as opposed to the whole series, and at this point it just feels like you're trying to generalize the issue instead of disseminate it - like you'd rather think the entire series failed at this instead of even remotely considering that LibDay alone was where this went wrong. And if I were to term what the biggest failings of LibDay were in this regard... I'd have to use Batman V Superman as an example based on this particular review of it; - a lot of the arguments here, you could exchange for the main elements of LibDay. If you have weak motivations or ill-executed premises behind the fights, then the battles feel forced no matter how good they themselves are - "you see them fighting, but you don't experience them fighting" (jump to 13:50 on vid). If we don't know why the villain does what they do prior to their death/defeat or have ill-defined objectives, it's hard to get invested in defeating them or even see them as a character as opposed to a cutout (jump to 5:00 on vid). And when a character dies, you want to feel like the death was earned and heartfelt after you got a connection to them, instead of it being tossed out with a death in one swoop after only being forced to care about them - especially for a main character (jump to 19:10). These are instances where LibDay failed on nuance that the prior games did not. And on Claude... Marx... given your prior arguments, that's tantamount to just saying "you're wrong but I can't prove it even though you've clearly proven your own points." It's moot, yes, but you don't even seem capable of saying that without going out of the way to say you somehow still think we're wrong. TBH, that feels kinda condescending (and yes, I know I'm probably the pot calling the kettle black on this one, but I'm still going to say it).
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 20, 2016 8:17:08 GMT -8
Sunrider can't into nuance from the very beginning (with the particular exception of Ongess, but that case is special, and even then it's kinda a trick? I planned to spend quite a bit of space in this issue on my next part of my writing analysis ): that's not to say it's bad, because it isn't, but there's never been a moment when a character's been particularly complex, and the same extends to plot developments. The narrative and characters have always been very straightforward, even in MoA. Even most of the moral decisions end being extremely clear-cut. I agree that Asaga's is probably a "depending on the reader" thing, everyone will see it differently. However, on Claude I think that we simply lack too many information to state clearly what she is. Is she really invincible, or can she just simply teleport instantly? Can she rewrite all reality accurately, or just with broad strokes (because, with what she says, you could argue that anyone with a reliable time machine can "rewrite reality") Sola proclaims her as a god, but she is an Ancient Ryuvian who thought of her Emperor as close to godhood as you can be and venerates technology; I'll take her words with a grain of salt. In my mind she isn't a god because omnipotence it's not the exclusive realm of higher beings, but something that technology may be able to reach, specially Lost Technology, just like teleport and time-travel. On the contrary, it seemed to go into nuance VERY WELL right from the very beginning up until LibDay, from Ava's smooth introduction as Kayto's old friend-turned-officer, to Cera's sudden attack as a display of PACT's power, to the political machinations at Versta and so-on. And take a look at the wiki sometime to see all that I alone got out of the characters in looking at the past two Sunrider games - I really, really just find it hard to believe ANYONE can say that about the characters and plot, least of all you. Disagree - I think we have more then enough info on what she is from her interaction with Alpha; she's pretty much a God. I'm not sure why you don't want to acknowledge that, but it's pretty hard to deny just looking at LibDay V2.00. Considering she talked about actually feeling the vacuum of space and the explosion of her Ryder against her skin, she obviously didn't teleport out of the Bianca's destruction but endured it - so yes, invincible. Alpha noted she could completely remake their entire galaxy with a thought if she wanted to - so yes, reality-rewriter. By Sola's own words, the Ryuvians never made it to that level in the end - so no, contrary to what Sola believes, she's not likely Ryuvian if her tech goes beyond what they could have ever accomplished. Shifting between realities via walking between dimensional planes is leagues above simple teleporting or even time-travel. And yes, omnipotence typically IS reserved for higher beings such as Gods - having that either makes you one or makes you unto one. Again, I don't know you refuse to believe it, but Claude's (effectively) a God. Saying otherwise is basically pointless at this juncture given what we've seen.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 19, 2016 8:49:13 GMT -8
Alice's insanity is present from her first day though, long before she actually reveals or use her awakening; her personality doesn't change in the slightest when Awakening. If something, she actually supports it: she's been consumed by love the same as Asaga and like her it doesn't show by something like a split personality take over, but simply as her original personality going mad from grief (jealousy in Asaga's case). Her superblood could have some relation tough, for sure. Just like the brain hyper waves, she probably unconsciously detects a lot more things (be it through enhanced senses or whatever), and making another personality that just "knows" it and justifies her tremendous increase in power could make sense for her. Asaga in a way continues being very childish and naive after all. The strange thing with Asaga's Sharr personality is that at times it seems that it's a split personality that occasionally takes complete control of her body and the normal Asaga has no idea about what she is doing meanwhile, like when you save Cosette from being killed she is genuinely confused as to why the Havoc is wrecked, and that she actually "talks" with herself. But at other times she just awakens and is in full control and no trace of any distortions in her personality, like in the battle where she turns on you, she doesn't start speaking in the more "dignified" way the Sharr Asaga does nor starts spouting about justice and whatever, she just goes after Chigara in a paranoid rage and knows fully well what she did. That's why I was wondering if we will ever see that personality again or if it was just a temporary thing. To me, in perspective, it was clear her reaction after the Havoc was kinda when she "invented it": her speaking when she's taking down the Havoc is only slightly more refined than when she proclaimed herself as Sharr , and was acting surprisingly serious and even slightly arrogant during the whole battle (the voice acting shift is more due to initial bad voice acting than intended, from the previous battle Asaga was supposed to sound serious from the beginning). When she killed Cosette, she was acting just like the Sharrs she had seen in stories acted. It was only after that she realized she had killed her like that; personally, I see her confusion more as "did I really do that...?" than genuine confusion at "what the heck is happening". That's when she decided she couldn't have simply killed Cosette, and that when acting just like the Sharrs before it was precisely due to being a Sharr than any true fault on her. Behind the scenes on a meta sense, I personally think Asaga's personality was retconned as Samu-kun found himself without any space for it in his script and lukewarm reception. I said on another place why I thought this was particularly good change, but it could have been handed better, or you could disagree. On Claude, I'm not going to talk much about it. I personally don't see her as neither omnipresent (teleporting is not omnipresence, and it's actually very, very, far away from it) nor omnisicient, and that for me are the two more important attributes of any "god". I only see her as a Sharr who reached the dream of every Ryuvian Emperor; immortality and physical domain over everything. And as such she doesn't feel any allegiance to anything, simply helping when she feels like it. She could probably erase Crow, but doing that would probably require erasing Sola too and rewinding everything to before you meet her (or maybe even to Sola's time; maybe the result of that Civil war could even change) Execution of it is bad though, but that's more due to Sunrider failing at almost anything with nuance (except Ongess), specially on characters. Not if the Veniczar novel is to be believed; Alice was shown to be pretty darn sane and even caring up until learning the truth about herself, after which she was driven insane by the reality of her creation. Meaning that it wasn't until after she started her path to madness that she seemed to get that power, so it's again the opposite - Alice counters your belief more then she supports it because her madness preceded her power. Especially since it could be argued that she fragmented her mind across the Prototypes in the process of controlling them. Again, it's a personal viewpoint, but I maintain that on meta grounds it was a very BAD change in regards to simply retconning it since it could have been utilized as a very interesting development tool - just ignoring it as though that never happened, I feel is a sloppy move in all honesty. In-universe though, there's still not enough to say one way or the other what exactly the "Sharr" was. She can be wherever she wants whenever she wants - that's not simple "teleporting" because that only defines going from one place to another, not shifting dimensions and time periods. That's pretty close to Omnipresence, and the only way to make it more-so is if she can actually stretch herself to multiple places at once - and based on what she's shown, that wouldn't be surprising. And that's something of a fallacy - the definition of immortality the Ryuvian Emperors chased after was more an immunity to aging. Claude seems to be immortal in terms of pure INVULNERABILITY, which is pretty much the ultimate definition of the term "immortal" and something you'd only associate with a divine entity. Hell, you're even contradicting yourself in a way - what the Ryuvians wanted WAS Godhood, so how is Claude being that make her any less of a God? Thing is, though... is that this is, if you ask me, blatantly untrue for the majority of Sunrider - save LibDay, that is.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 18, 2016 22:20:04 GMT -8
3) From the beginning, it's not clear if Asaga's Sharr personality really exists or was simply an illusion as a way to cope with her new power, the fact she had killed Cosette like she did and was suspecting Chigara like she did. Neither Sola nor Alice had anything remotely similar; the first was a Sharr too (and more "official" than Asaga) and the second had the same awakening power. I could believe some kind of "genetic" personality, but what few we see is basically Asaga's passion for justice and jealousy crystallized, and nothing remotely asking her to restore Ryuvia and make everyone bow to her. Remember too that, since the prototypes revealed themselves, Asaga unconsciously detected that Chigara's brain hyperwaves were identical to the prototype ones. It seems fitting that, not having a rational reason to suspect Chigara, she dumped all of her "bad emotions" into a fabricated personality. As the game progressed and she started actually believing Chigara was the traitor and her jealousy getting even stronger, the need for that kind of thing subsided; the feelings more or less passed to the "main personality" (not that she actually had split personalities, she was probably trying to trick herself to ease her feelings of guilt). 5) I'm pretty sure it's Sola. The Nightmare Ascendant, of which Claude is basically hinted to be the original owner, was said to have fought against the Farari in an Ancient Battle. Besides that, Crow clearly says with all the hate possible, so it's clear the Farari were his opponents on the Civil War, of which Sola was the main commander on battle. It's also pretty much implied he traveled in time to avoid the Shar'lac blast that would have killed him, so Sola seems the more likely choice. The difference in time might be owing to some malfunction; it's even pointed that Crow initially traveled to the past before going to the future, and he actually wanted to return to his present. Besides that, from what Sola and Alpha say, Claude could probably kill Crow pretty easily if she felt like it. 3) Keep in mind though that we never saw Sola in the first days or weeks of having that power unlocked, and neither one of them are a "pure-blood" like Asaga is and is therefore arguably "incomplete" compared to her - plus, unlike Asaga, Sola kept her passions in check (possibly even to avoid this kind of thing). And Alice is actually counterproductive to your point since, just like Asaga, she was driven insane by unfulfilled love and had other personalities in her head (by way of the Prototype Hivemind) - if anything Alice could be seen as evidence TOWARDS the "Sharr" genes breeding insanity from uncontrolled emotions, not against it. Maybe being a "true" Sharr with an uncompromised bloodline affected Asaga's psyche differently - enough so as to have her either develop a split personality or, as you said just now, to compartmentalize her feelings and hallucinate the "Sharr" as a coping mechanism. Granted, I agree that it's a far more interesting thing to have then simple schizophrenia or some acclimatization to activated super-genes, but there's still just too many gaps to say one way or the other for sure at this point. 5) That begs the question though of what Farari actually means, though - was it a factional title for the "loyalists"? Was it a family title - Sola's father, maybe? Was it the Ryvuian word for the royalty? Speaking of that, I'm also going to agree with longtimelurker about Claude - compared to what was known about "the Traveler", a literal god was a bit beyond the scope of what was expected. And please don't say that's not the case - Claude is (A) able to survive the vacuum of space and a nuclear meltdown with her only complaints being it's bad for her skin, (B) can warp between times and dimensions which makes her pretty much omnipotent and omnipresent, and (C) the Alpha Prototype herself says that Claude could, if she chose to, remake the entire universe herself. Immortal, (Near) Omnipotent, (Near) Omnipresent and can manipulate matter and creation at will. That is what people would call a God - something far beyond the simple time-traveler she was hinted to be. So where does she fit into all of this?
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