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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 14, 2016 19:16:37 GMT -8
Thanks truebeliever . Indeed that was the main point I wanted to avert; I know that Lib Day is a result of it's ending. I mean, duh, of course it is. But the objective of this thread is to focus only on the writing on a purely technical standpoint, refusing whys, hows or comparisons with both expectations and other products. My objective is not to focus on the reasons behind it or justify anything, but merely provide the feedback on writing that Samu-kun missed so much. So, of course I'll talk about the ending, I mean, I already did up there. But it's also given that I won't talk about how the ending was received or about how that influenced the rest of the work; I believe that lies beyond the scope of this thread. I don't think a works ending is off topic when discussing it from a technical standpoint. The ending can often offer context for the rest of the work that can drastically effect how that work is viewed. Likewise knowing that a work is but one part of a serial story can also change how we view that work. We admittedly enter into the realm of speculation but if an ending of a story that is a chapter in a longer story limits the direction that story can go in the future we can draw negative conclusions. In a game where part of the advertised appeal is the ability to have an effect on the story, with one of the most visible signs of this being who the protagonist ends up with romantically, and you are hampered by choices that you wouldn't have made you could draw the conclusion that the story is unsatisfactory. ... god, I wish I could sum up my points as well as you do.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 10, 2016 0:01:43 GMT -8
Not really. Crow Harbor's appearance via time-travel at the end of LibDay's V1.00 foreshadowed this well before the 2.00 content was released. In turn, this was also something Academy foreshadowed in it's very first moments where Academy Kayto was playing a Sunrider-esque game with Crow appearing as the villain.
I'm talking about the Sola route in Academy, the foreshadow plays into the dialogue between Kayto and Sola at the end of 2.00 about Claude coming to correct the timeline, not specifically the time travel.
I meant that Crow's returning at all in 1.00, with it explicitly stated he was hunting another time traveler, kinda pointed to that. He was known as Sola's enemy since FA and Academy connected "The Traveler" to whatever happened to Sola - it'd be hard to imagine his return and whatever temporal shenanigans it involves connecting to anyone else besides Sola, the "Traveler" or both.
The entire route referenced how Sola's existence was an aberrant to their timeline - it felt of "Doctor Who" vibes regarding timelines potentially collapsing just by the jargon that Academy Chigara gave out. Taking that in with how the Traveler intervened to stabilize the Academy Sola's existence, I personally think it was obvious the Traveler would eventually end up interacting with the main Sola at some point. And between the mannerisms in the Traveler's speech, how she was observed by Kayto to be a girl and the way she commented on Kayto's attractiveness, IDK (personally) how it could be seen as anyone else but Claude.
Now yes, this is my own opinion, but I didn't really feel this (Claude as the Traveler coming to correct timeline issues) was something that would have been that big a shocker had it not been shown in V2.00.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 9, 2016 16:13:42 GMT -8
Easier format then at Steam - reposting this here; steamcommunity.com/games/358750/announcements/detail/935995434265989385Announcement is as follows;
Love in Space is excited to announce Sunrider Liberation Day: [RE]turn, the FREE DLC story expansion to Sunrider Liberation Day. Kayto Shields returns for his next adventure in the Sunrider universe. Experience the story of Liberation Day in a completely different way when Shields wakes up 72 hours before the ending of Liberation Day, somehow fully aware of who will betray him… and finds that he must stop another Kayto Shields from repeating history. But under what mysterious circumstances was he sent back to the past? Will he be able to race against time and change the bleak future? Or is history doomed to repeat itself? FEATURES The DLC adds the [RE]turn afterstory arc after you have completed the main story of Liberation Day Take control of Kayto Shields in this desperate race against time, where every decision means the difference between life and death Build your relationship with Asaga, Ava, Claude, Icari, or Sola to change history. Multi-route, highly replayable scenario with multiple endings Story only addon, double the length as the Liberation Day story script Thrilling suspense story where death is always around the corner FAQ Q: Will I need to download a new decensor patch A: Yes, we will post a new free decensor patch once the DLC is released Q: Is [RE]turn canon A: There are multiple story paths in [RE]turn as well as different endings, so there is no “canon” outcome Q: What happened to Kryska A: You can’t go out with Kryska in the DLC, but she’ll help out in Icari’s path Q: Will [RE]turn be voiced A: The new story content will not be voiced. Q: When will the DLC be released? A: Maybe in a month, but basically as long as it takes to finish it.
I am both excited and worried at the same time. Is this an elseworld story in a different universe... is this something that plays parallel to what happened in LibDay without changing it's events... or is it a complete rewrite of everything that happened before? I know I've advocated adding or altering LibDay's story in the past, but this feels almost like a giant retcon-bomb, which can backfire if not done right, and V2.00's existence helped make things seem much less "bleak" then before. Also worries me in that it looks like the reverse issue LibDay had is happening - focus on story over battles instead of trying to find the balance the old games had. Still, I hope this announcement isn't some belated April Fools prank - either way, that'd be cruel Or maybe I'm just an eternal cynic. Regardless, I'm reposting it here for ease-of-access for anyone who's not seen the Steam announcement. Debate away on what this means for Sunrider!
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 9, 2016 15:07:14 GMT -8
Saying that the foreshadowing could have been missed until Sunrider 4 if it wasn't for the Liberation Day 2.00 content. Not really. Crow Harbor's appearance via time-travel at the end of LibDay's V1.00 foreshadowed this well before the 2.00 content was released. In turn, this was also something Academy foreshadowed in it's very first moments where Academy Kayto was playing a Sunrider-esque game with Crow appearing as the villain.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 6, 2016 15:40:11 GMT -8
Believe me, I say this in all friendliness, Sharr, but that was one case in which you would have done better to resist the snark. That said, I agree the thread should be fine now provided we get no more drive-by trollings. Never been good at that, but point taken.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 6, 2016 14:05:18 GMT -8
Looks like this thread got reported. I see that you gentlemen are entertaining yourselves again. Have this annoyed Ava. Eh by the way, in case you missed it on twitter, we're going to release a free DLC for the game soonish. Look forward to the new story content... emoticon_kayto_small Not to be snarky, but you do realize the entire reason these threads exist is because a lot of people gave an "annoyed Ava" at LibDay, right? 'Sides, that's old news, so IDK who reported the thread since it's already sorted out - KnightOfXentar's posts are probably the worst 'cause they're trolling, but aside from that IDK if it was bad enough for a report ^^;
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 6, 2016 8:08:17 GMT -8
Er, Wrong.Wrong - No need to be bitter just because you haven't ever had luck in a debate with me. Sharr is BALLIN' OUT OF CONTROL!for Sharr: sorry to break your bubble, dude, but people usually stop arguing with you, because they realise that morons some people will never accept that they are wrong. See, your behavior is largely why I figured off-handed sarcasm would be easier for people on this forum to recognize. "Sorry to break your bubble" but IDK if you're even eligible to comment, based on the last two posts alone . Moreover... we pretty much seemed to have worked it out, so what in the world did you decide to try and start another flame-war about? If you're going to critique people, don't do so after having only come to troll the thread-poster with snide "tl;dr" remarks. I may have been blunt and overly-casual, but at least I commented with the actual intent to debate - which is more then you can say, dude. Think about that; right now... you're worse then me. And by this forum's standards, that's pretty bad . ~ OK, I think things have been derailed more then enough. Let's just wait to see what the next part brings, alright?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 6, 2016 5:48:30 GMT -8
Take it as you will, these are just my observations and I wouldn't bother saying anything if I didn't care about the users or the forum. Personally I think you both have points, but I wouldn't call anything truth as the writing of Liberation Day is based on opinion with analysis used to break it down. Regardless let's not go further down this route as we will end up going in circles, it's your choice how you communicate but the little things can help in the long term. Likewise, I'm saying that you can't exactly refuse something if it's got enough evidence behind it, be it fact or deduction or otherwise. And that people here tend to take the "little things" a lot more seriously then other forums I've been to, so it seems a catch-22 regardless of what I'd choose to do; it really does feel like the people I reply too on this forum take how I say things very literally compared to other forums .
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 6, 2016 4:23:31 GMT -8
At the day each user represent a single player in the figures of users playing Liberation Day meaning that perceptions while they may have common themes can also vary. An exchange of opinions or debating should be like a conversation and the moment you resort to using derogatory statements like 'I’ma gonna call bullshit on you', 'being the thread creator DOESN'T make it "your right" to ignore simple fact' or 'let me be frank - it was never that you weren't clear; I just outright think you're wrong about them being something you can segregate like that' just completely shoots down the value of your point no matter how good it is. To put it bluntly the majority of posts that I have read by you Sharr include statements like this and you kill off your point by bluntly 'being a bit of a dick' to the person you are responding to. I am not saying you're the only guilty party of doing this as sarcasm can also borrow from this tree however you will only get respect if you show it - Marx has taken quite a large chunk of time to write this which is a celebration of commitment in itself. If you disagree with something then cool make a point of it but do so in a neutral way or in the form of a question 'what do you think of x, I feel y'. Apologies for the derailment however I honestly feel sorry for Marx that the first paragraph of a response he gets to quite a good article of feedback is a personal attack. Judging by the likes on the original post I get the feeling quite a few people also enjoyed reading your feedback too, thanks Marx. You truly don't know the meme? Magpie has posted it at least twice in this same forum Shamefur Dispray! I'm not that bad with the memes am I? I really don't see how that's the case; it's not like this is a college course debate or the like. Plus that's kind of generalizing the issue - like saying how someone delivers something has any bearing on whether they're wrong or right. In my experience, the point of the argument is "the point", not how it's delivered/whatever, and acting otherwise just feels petty - like you're going to ignore what someone says because of some personal issue one has with their language. Plus, those aren't actually "derogatory" - just statements of opinion, the sole exception being the second one since, if writing something on a technical standpoint, I really don't see how the ending is a separate matter. If even Marx has to admit that LibDay was a product of it's ending, I don't see how he believes it's possible to avoid or deny talking about the influence it had, or how he could chalk that up to "false expectations" or the like. And I noticed that in all your talking, you never actually said you disagreed with me - not even once. And if you actually consider what I said - with only 1/5th of it being a complaint about his view of the ending to this while the rest was amicable character discussion - as a "personal attack"... then you have NOT been to many forums. Seriously; that (and part of this last paragraph) was about as offhandedly-sarcastic as I could be in typing with that first response - most forums I've been to just are not this serious.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 5, 2016 19:28:40 GMT -8
Marx, I think you, Sharr, and I are more or less on the same page regarding Liberation Day's writing. I hope I'm not putting words in Sharr's mouth, but I believe what he and I are saying is that Liberation Day's structural and pacing problems directly stemmed from LiS' plan to end the game with a twist, and that's why it's germane to the topic. That said, I certainly have no desire to rehash any arguments about the ending's flaws, which have already been covered in detail elsewhere on the forum, and after reading your last post, I can understand that you don't want the thread to devolve into a repeat of those. I think we can all move on with the topic, since I believe Sharr and I have both made our point. I'll be looking forward to reading your next installment. Here, Here!
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 5, 2016 14:18:07 GMT -8
P.S. - If you're talking about ritual-suicide, it's " Seppuku". "Sudoku" is a numbers-placement puzzle-game. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppukuen.wikipedia.org/wiki/SudokuJust saying - ff you're gonna try to snark off about my saying "you don't get/mix up contexts"... you probably shouldn't do something that makes it look true. Unless you did that on purpose as some kinda joke to see if I'd notice it, or it was just a mistake in typing - if so, OK but it still proves you mix up contexts. You truly don't know the meme? Magpie has posted it at least twice in this same forum On the ending, I will speak clearly; I consider the ending part of the game. I even talked about it extensively on the character development part and commented it on the pacing part too. What I don't consider part of the game are cries towards having your X characters seemingly killed in the 1.0 ending or not having individual endings or not liking a twist ending on 1.0 or thinking 2.0 as too late, etc. I clearly say " problems with the ending", not the ending itself. Now, 2.0 is weird in the sense that the expanded ending is clearly rushed, but it does not constitute an entire arc on its own and is basically an expanded epilogue. Thus, is very hard to judge on a technical standpoint because it has no pacing, no flow and close to no plot to speak of. And from the beginning my analysis was more focused on 1.0 (started writing it before 2.0), though I changed some parts once 2.0 came out. And truebeliever , I disagree on that. This analysis is mostly focused on 1.0 for the reasons I spoke above, and the faults on Liberation Day are the same even with a twist ending; I even commented that twist ending actually tend to be very poor climaxes (with some counted exceptions) specially because they have to sabotage their own pacing and everything to make it. Furthermore, in this case the "twist" is very predictable, so I don't think a special consideration is needed; truly you're right in the sense that it makes easier to understand what is going behind the scenes, but what I'm trying to repeat here is that this thread is aiming for an analysis of purely the writing. Thus, I'm trying to have the least influence from outside or meta reasons. Twice in one forum from one person and it instantly means a meme's public here, huh? Considering you weren't even the one using it, sorry for NATURALLY assuming you were being literal or sarcastic - maybe if you'd used that image in the first place? On the ending, let me be frank - it was never that you weren't clear; I just outright think you're wrong about them being something you can segregate like that. And that's a contradiction - if it lacks pacing, flow and plot, then those ARE things you can judge it negatively on because they are absent, both on it's own merits and in comparison to others, as an instance of narrative failure. You are basically trying to take a wide-ranging context and sub-divide it with the most semantical arguments. They are all components of the narrative - every differential is part of an overreaching narrative regardless, and if issues arise in said narrative because of the absences even on a stand-alone level - if there are instances in which the addition of better pacing, flow and plot would have improved it, that makes it viable to judge both on it's own merits and in comparison to others. But that really DOESN'T seem to mesh - if you yourself admit that twist endings are poor climaxes by way of sabotaging it's own pacing, HOW can you possibly turn around and say "I disagree on that"? Saying that is like basically CONFIRMING that writing LibDay with a twist ending in mind sabotaged LibDay's own pacing. If anything, the predictability of the twist makes it an even bigger issue to consider. It just... it seems like you really just don't want to acknowledge that LibDay might have been the product of it's ending - that "an analysis of purely the writing" still ties into the ending because that's what it lead up to.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 5, 2016 11:08:20 GMT -8
I have thus changed the thread's name to reflect it's true nature. It's a shame that I'm unable to change the name to "Writing Analysis (in Marx's understanding and remarkably differing to SharrofRyuvia's understandings of such issues) on Liberation Day". I apologize for my total and utter failure; I hereby promise to commit sudoku. What's "a shame" is that you're trying to segregate parts of the narrative from discussion in a narrative-discussion thread - that's closer to "Marx's (willing) misunderstanding" on what counts as a narrative. It's really too broad a term to try and just say "don't talk about the ending just because I personally don't consider the ending of a story as part of the story." Plus, truebeliever kinda cut to the point far better then I did - LibDay does actually look like a "narrative end determined narrative means" situation, so ignoring the ending is like trying to ignore how gravity plays a part in a black hole; it's too interconnected for any attempt to claim it as a separate issue to work. P.S. - If you're talking about ritual-suicide, it's " Seppuku". "Sudoku" is a numbers-placement puzzle-game. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppukuen.wikipedia.org/wiki/SudokuJust saying - ff you're gonna try to snark off about my saying "you don't get/mix up contexts"... you probably shouldn't do something that makes it look true. Unless you did that on purpose as some kinda joke to see if I'd notice it, or it was just a mistake in typing - if so, OK but it still proves you mix up contexts.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 5, 2016 8:23:44 GMT -8
Ah another Sharr conflicting with someone's opinions moment... This is starting to become a regular thing.
(points to majority of post where Sharr is AGREEING and OPENLY STATES HE AGREES with Marx's beliefs on LibDay's narrative failures - first part is just technicality) ... LEARN TO READ.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 5, 2016 8:20:44 GMT -8
Ah another Sharr conflicting with someone's opinions moment... This is starting to become a regular thing.
I believe all we need are just a few simple rules to prevent the senseless conversations, these kind of verbal exchanges usually turn into. Rule #1 of discussing with Sharr: Sharr is right. Rule #2 of discussing with Sharr: There is no reason to respond to Sharr with something that differs from his view in the slightest, because Sharr is right. Completely and utterly. Bonus rule #3 of discussing with Sharr: Rule #2 can be ignored if you agree with Sharr's post in its entirety. There is only one guy around who could make a big deal about something arbitrary like this. For god's sake. emoticon_ava_small Er, Wrong.Wrong - No need to be bitter just because you haven't ever had luck in a debate with me. Wrong - If I actually believed that, I wouldn't argue anything to begin with. Wrong - I'd actually say those are your rules, not mine. I'm not infallible. Plus, you might want to pull back a bit since in most debates I never do in fact say "I am right" - just that my opinion's different or that I believe different. So "for god's sake", stop being so arbitrary yourself and just get something that solidly proves me/my opinion wrong - I'd accept it. P.S. - I don't consider it arbitrary since it comes across like ignoring something for personal convenience.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 5, 2016 1:58:03 GMT -8
Going to throw responses to this - don't have to answer until the end. Just gonna give my own thoughts if that's alright... But... just going to point out - I kinda think you’re in the wrong trying to pin it on “false expectations”. It was more that they just didn’t want a railroad romance as opposed to expecting Academy 2.0 with regards to the romance thing, and the choices… I’ma gonna call bullshit on you there - even compared to MoA and FA, there are far less choices then those, so it wasn’t even close to a “false expectation.” If anything, that’s just making up excuses for it Also gonna call bullshit on asking/demanding people make another thread if they wanna bring up the ending - the ending is part of the story. You not only can’t avoid talking about it if you’re talking about the story, but you literally have zero right to tell people otherwise if you’re going to start a thread about narrative issues on the story itself because the ending falls under those contexts. Telling people not to focus on a specific narrative issue on a thread all about narrative issues - now THAT’S ironic The thread is on writing, not so much the true place of the game, so I feel things like talking about expectations of the ending or of choices is simply out of place. No matter what it is, the point is to evaluate it as its own thing in a more technical way; while the original Sunrider is used as a reference point sometimes, it's not a comparison with it, and so a matter of choices or routes are meaningless in terms of the analysis of Liberation's Day writing. You simply can't analyze what's not there, and criticizing juts for its absence is relying on comparison. The point is not of "How it could have been done better" or "what it lacked", but rather "What went wrong with the writing already there". And sorry, but as the thread creator it's perfectly in my right to decide what's on topic and what I believe dilutes the main point: it's why I made the thread, duh. It's not like making threads is an exclusive privilege and something hard, so if you believe those matters need addressing you can make the thread yourself. And even then, I'm not talking about the ending itself but about rather the expectations of the ending itself, which similar to routes are something that exist outside the narrative. For the rest, fine thoughts. The only thing I would remark is that we in fact don't disagree about Asaga, but the way it was being executed at the beginning seemed to put the Sharr as an almost separate entity, and doing that again would be making the same mistake it was done with Chigara. ... out of everything I typed, THIS is what you threw focus on? OK... first off - I believe "No. No, no and again, no." The ending is the cap-off of the entire story - you yourself went on in the narrative section about lead-ins to a satisfying crescendo being part of what made FA and MoA work. The ending and choices tie into that - what's "out of place" at best is trying to act otherwise, and at worst it's making up excuses (and if I sound somewhat harsh on this, it's cause I swear you do everything in your power to try and downplay LibDay's failures when they're compared to the other two games). It's not "relying on comparison" - it's pointing out that the absence in and of itself is an issue and therefore results in a failed expectation, not a "false" one. Again, how the story ends is part of that because it is part of the writing that is already there. And for the record, being the thread creator DOESN'T make it "your right" to ignore simple fact - if the main point is "narrative", that's a broad enough spectrum/context to include just about everything that's part of it, the ending included; demanding someone not talk about a certain part of said narrative in a narrative-discussion thread is asinine. Especially if it's purely because you're doing it just to persist in thinking it was "false expectations" even when everything else kinda points the other way. Routes and endings do not "exist outside the narrative" - they are PART OF IT because they are components in it's functionality. Difference with the Asaga bit? Yes we do kinda disagree, because I actually don't think what was done with Chigara was a "mistake" at all - just that it should have been done differently. Chigara's hivemind-connection makes it very easy to believe she was being covertly manipulated by "whispers" - hell, that harkens all the way back to FA after Op: Wedding Crash - and in LibDay, instability and uncertainty about who and what she really was would have made it logical for Alice to be able to play her for the tragic fool the same as Asaga. Alice still is the cause for Chigara's actions - it's just more subtle and Chigara ultimately chooses it herself, albeit after coercion. Back to Asaga though - what happened at the beginning still could have worked if, again, it becomes more and more clear as time passes that Asaga's "Sharr side" is actually just an invention of her own to treat as the source of her "evils" instead of herself.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 4, 2016 23:07:44 GMT -8
Going to throw responses to this - don't have to answer until the end. Just gonna give my own thoughts if that's alright... But... just going to point out - I kinda think you’re in the wrong trying to pin it on “false expectations”. It was more that they just didn’t want a railroad romance as opposed to expecting Academy 2.0 with regards to the romance thing, and the choices… I’ma gonna call bullshit on you there - even compared to MoA and FA, there are far less choices then those, so it wasn’t even close to a “false expectation.” If anything, that’s just making up excuses for it Also gonna call bullshit on asking/demanding people make another thread if they wanna bring up the ending - the ending is part of the story. You not only can’t avoid talking about it if you’re talking about the story, but you literally have zero right to tell people otherwise if you’re going to start a thread about narrative issues on the story itself because the ending falls under those contexts. Telling people not to focus on a specific narrative issue on a thread all about narrative issues - now THAT’S ironic Kay - rant done. On to constructive stuff! GeneralOn the general stuff, I largely agree with a lot of what you said regarding how a lack of cohesion sunk things - hell, I argued this at length with Blackhead; the story being lackluster makes you not really care about the gameplay, just like gutting the gameplay for “pure fanservice!” makes the story ultimately feel not worth it. Blending it all together was what made the past two games work, and TBH the fact that it wasn’t in LibDay was perhaps something that sunk the game the most - I’ve said it before, but it was never really a case of “false expectations” as opposed to failed expectations, and what you just said here compared to how MoA and FA were done ought to be evidence of that. Only thing I disagree with is the the Beta feedback - When it comes to developing games, Beta-testing is done typically to iron out gameplay choices, not narrative ones - and in turn, there wasn’t much story offered up to judge at the time so nobody knew what was coming. They probably figured it was a lot longer then what they saw. Narrative FlowI don’t actually see anything I truly disagree with here or can add to. Pacing and Arcs I would argue the end kinda suffers from botched pacing as well - there’s better work, sure, but the execution of it feels sorely rushed like the rest of the story did. Character DevelopmentI do actually have some things to add on this, though it’s became I largely agree with a lot of what you say. I am also blessed and cursed with a hyperactive imagination, so I can write at length on what I'd write . Hold on to your butt's - these are going to be big (and probably get put in a character-discussion thread where they likely should be already instead). - Captain: The painful thing about these flaws of Kayto’s is that they actually could have worked if done better. If there had been some degree of conflict - if a character in the game, like Ava, Asaga or even - for a twist of irony - Cosette if you had saved her, outright confronted Kayto on the idea that he was using Chigara and rushing things as a way to run from everything, it would have worked more. Like with MoA and it’s map system, it would take what would have normally been a flaw and turned it into an interesting development mechanic because Kayto wouldn’t look stupid and badly written as opposed to being emotionally fragile, in denial and desperate for companionship. A choice to have him either be wishy-washy about commitment or going straight for a home run (both of which can make Kayto breed doubt in whether or not his feelings are genuine without having to change the sub-plot) could highlight that, with the final encounter with Chigara at Cera being either his first confession or a re-affirmation of what he's already followed through on. - Chigara: Another painful thing is that, like with Kayto, there were pre-existing catalysts there for her changes. For example, if Ava had at some point confronted Chigara on her relationship with Kayto and either insinuated or outright accused Chigara of just being Kayto’s stress-toy escapism from his pain, it would have planned darker feelings in Chigara’s heart with the idea that her dream-romance wasn’t all she thought it was. Hell, maybe even have Ava somehow - perhaps indirectly - reveal to Chigara that she broke Kayto’s heart right before Helion and horrify Chigara with the seed of bitter doubt that maybe she’s just Kayto’s rebound from Ava. Adding to the strain would be if Chigara is so “in love” with Kayto that she decides she doesn’t care if his feelings for her are real or not so long as she can make him happy, which makes her sacrifice her own happiness for what may just be his selfishness and forgo, if not become afraid of, asking herself because it might shatter the fantasy. The fact that, according to Lynn in V2.00, Chigara could apparently tell right from the start that she was possibly leaking information unconsciously but kept it secret might also count as a betrayal as she either did not want to believe it or simply did not want to sacrifice her time with Kayto even if it meant knowingly damming everyone. The fight with Asaga also showed Chigara getting a more bitter edge since she flat-out accused Asaga of killing purely because she thought she was an avatar of justice (which would have been a perfect place for the Helion-Cosette choice to have an impact since Chigara could have thrown in Asaga’s face how she either murdered Cosette in cold blood or would have if not for Kayto) - that could have been the point where Chigara would address that she stopped associating with Asaga because she was becoming AFRAID of Asaga, which would have made perfect sense given that Asaga’s probably been shooting Chigara murderous glares for a while now. Chigara could have professed that, ever since learning about her connection to the Prototypes, she became increasingly terrified of going near the increasingly-unstable Asaga for fear that her former best friend might just up and execute her on some self-righteous sense of arbitrary “justice”, or even out of some twisted sense of revenge for the Prototype’s role in the death of Asaga’s father and loss of her homeworld. And if Asaga came to believe Chigara was always a spy, she COULD potentially see Chigara as having been responsible for what happened to Jaylor and Ryuvia, if only out of increasing paranoia - even though it was jealousy that finally made her flip out. However, after learning that she really was a Prototype all along instead of their template and taunted by the idea that she may have been subconsciously influenced to like or love Kayto, the horror that Ava and Asaga might have been right all along coupled by Alice being the “original Ashada” and the truth of her father and birth, along with the fact that the Alliance would surely never let a Prototype like her live causes her to snap and go Yandere. With an obsession to prove she is her own person with her own feelings as opposed to something else’s creation - a character conflict teased in Academy - combined with mental manipulation/persuasion from Alice instead of outright mind-control, Chigara could lose it and murder Grey and the Alliance leaders out of some deluded hope that the Prototypes will give her, Kayto and Cera amnesty (or whatever reason you find would work better) because a life spent with him is too valuable to her for her to lose, willing to pay any price to keep him even if it only amounts to some twisted attempt to prove her own feelings were always genuine. This would mirror and act as foil to Kayto in how the very same love she believed in and professed faith for had betrayed her brought her to ruin just as it did Kayto - a character dynamic that was tossed out with the mind-control bit in favor of making it "totally not her fault" (though I guess you could argue otherwise if Lynn's being honest and Chigara really either knew or refused to face that she was a walking surveillance device just to stay with Kayto). In turn, when Kayto either reaffirms or confesses he loves her, she snaps out of it and is left horrified by what she’s done - and from there she contemplates suicide. I’d imagine there’d be some Prince or Moralist choice here to preserve agency on how you handled it, but it would end either way with Fontana shooting her in the back, the unfairness of her plight and self-loathing for her mistakes and the truth of her existence breaking her totally and, upon merging her memories to the hivemind's and possibly losing any individuality aside from her love for Kayto, Chigara becomes what’s been teased at the end of LibDay. - Asaga: This is something that, in truth… I actually have to disagree with you on, at least partly. Like with Chigara and Kayto, the “Evil Sharr personality” could actually have been made to work like everything else - the key was in how it was used. I’d say to keep the “evil Sharr” - but, instead of it being actual split-personality, have it be Asaga’s falsified creation. By that, I mean illustrate that the "evil personality” is something Asaga herself is imagining all on her own - take the obsessive desire she has of “I’m the Hero!” that’s present in LibDay and explore it by having Asaga be so unwilling to see corruption in herself that she’s actually made herself belief that there’s another personality inside of her comprised of all her bad traits. Or, in laymen’s terms - Asaga invents an imaginary friend that she can claim told her to do bad things, so that she always has a convent excuse to say her mistakes were not her fault because she didn’t do it (everything just sounds so much lamer when you put it in laymen's terms ). It would capitalize on what made Asaga’s character start developing - reacting to paranoia and fear, only this time of herself as she initially refuses to accept the fact that she IS a normal human with darker emotions. Only at the final battle against Alice does she confront and accept that there was never any separate “Sharr" personality; that it was just her excuse and that there was only ever herself, and therefore accept the thing that she had always either denied, laughed off, debated or refused to confront since Versta - that there is no such thing as a perfect paragon of justice or an infallible hero. Also, it would have been a very nice contrast if Asaga ended up surprising Kayto with the idea that there was someone just like him on the ship all along - that perhaps Asaga’s obsessive drive to be the perfect hero… is actually (at least partly) born out of feeling that she failed her family/father and ran away when he needed help the most (compounded by her her abandonment having been years beforehand) and that she abandoned Ryuvia and people to PACT, the same as how Kayto felt he failed Maray and Cera. Likewise, it could end up playing into her love with Kayto if one of the reasons she became so obsessed with protecting him was so that she didn't fail anyone she cared about ever again like she failed her father and that the belief someone took that from her fueled her jealousy further - as well as into her newfound hate of Chigara post-ending, eventually admitting and coming to terms with the belief that she just wants/wanted to hate Chigara so as to not face the possibility that, once again, she failed her family/surrogate sister when Chigara needed her the most. - Ava: I agree on Ava, though I think the thing that would have cemented her would be when she gradually tries to fight for Kayto and even confronts Chigara on this before, after her argument - or even because of something Chigara said - she questions why she’s trying so hard to find fault in Chigara when she’s not yet done anything wrong. Likewise, maybe having a talk with Kayto and the like and either amicably or harshly confirming their “separated” status would catalyze her making a 180 and almost wishing for Chigara to not be a Prototype just to make it easier for Ava herself to let go of Kayto to the point she makes herself believe she’s happy to not be in their way anymore. Then at the end she realizes she was still just trying to run from her feelings - first that she was jealous of Chigara and wanted her to be guilty because of it, then that she reversed course and wished for their happiness as a way for Ava herself to move on - and culminate in her making the promise she did in V2.00 about never again being dishonest about her feelings, either to Kayto and herself, and perhaps acknowledging that even with his failings that she thinks Kayto is a better human being then her because she could never be the empathic support that he was to her in high school. Kayto could either dryly state it doesn’t matter anymore (Ava’s emotions freeze over once more with a “Yes, sir”) or offhandedly joke that this was why he never understood why anyone reversed their positions (Ava actually laughs and calls him “idiot”), setting the tone of what they are to each-other before Kayto either confirms her as a First Officer or Companion like in V2.00. - Sola: Same as everything else - coulda worked if done better. Example; take how Kayto in the end of V2:00 can say Sola is falling back to her old nihilistic ways and use that in the main story. Illustrate that Sola might be slipping back into her closed-off self because she is silently despairing at how Asaga looks to be repeating the same mistakes that ruined the Ryuvians in Sola’s time. Then, have Sola start musing on her existence more and have THAT be when she starts thinking of her existence causing disruptions in reality - that, if her presence makes something happen that could not have happened otherwise, it would rip a hole in the universe. This could cause her to withdraw further at the idea that it might not be her place to try and solve Asaga’s problems or the like if doing so turns out to be “something that cannot happen on it’s own.” Likewise it would add an even darker undertone to her volunteering to down Asaga - that her loyalty to the Captain is now so great that she’s willing to risk damming the universe for him (then again, its possible someone else could have eventually downed Asaga, so reality might not have been in total jeopardy at the time). It might also be interesting to play around with the idea that Sola could have considered downing Asaga as a mercy-kill to keep the then-deranged Sharr from ending up like another Crow Harbor or Alice/Arcadius, if only out of pity and sympathy for what would pretty much be the last living member of her blood-related family, distant relation that she is, if not a twisted sense of obligated responsibility for her relative’s actions. - Claude: She only actually seemed to show a hint of this right before Alice shot her. More of that would have been nice - or, perhaps as a real kicker, that she ends up being the one that helps make Ava more accepting of Kayto and Chigara’s relationship by trying to (hypocritically) argue that nobody can force something like love. Likewise, if Claude really wanted to sell herself off as an actor and try to give herself a show stealing moment, here’s what I’d do - have there be a scene where, if Kayto and Ava confront her on hiding the truth of Chigara… and then Claude has a moment of silence where her cheeriness fades, then takes after Asaga and has a “breakdown” and falls to her knees sobbing. She confesses to having known Chigara was a Prototype ever since the test and claims she hid it for the same reason she defended Chigara from Asaga - that she knew Chigara made Kayto happy and that he was still too fragile and dependent on Chigara’s support to know. She then claims to have believed revealing what she found would have gotten Chigara either imprisoned or lynched by Ava or Asaga and that, had Kayto been forced to choose between Chigara and Ava/Asaga’s demands, it would have mentally and emotionally destroyed him, and that Claude couldn’t take the idea of doing that to him. She professes in believing Chigara was unaware of being a Prototype or that, if she was sending the other Protypes info, her spying was an unwitting action, and wanted to believe in Chigara’s sincerity - but that her doing so cost them everything. She then sobbingly remarks everything was her fault (which is ironically true from a different perspective) and states her own blunder in trying to keep Kayto from being hurt cost them the Sunrider. Kayto can either condemn or forgive her but either way accepts her explanation as a valid and understandable reason for why she did what she did, allowing Claude to somewhat take the limelight a bit and throw off suspicion on what she really is, if only temporarily. If nothing else, it could breed introspection on whether or not Claude genuinely does regret her actions or is just faking it all for the camera. - Kryska: I think her diehard loyalty was precisely why she became a spec-ops - nothing could sway her, and the Alliance not being at war until the main games probably sheltered her from just how complicated and intermingled things like justification and morality could really be; this is probably her first ever actual war. I likewise agree that her character development was done reasonably well - it was sort of a foil to Fontana in how, like him, she put her ideals over her nation’s current actions and use that to try and restore it, and, like Fontana, I believe that belief/naiveté can be shifted without entirely shattering her personality. - Icari: Agreed on Icari’s trust in Kayto - it would have been nice for her to lampshade how, in the beginning of LibDay, she’d claimed to only care about Kayto’s state because she didn’t want to entrust the Phoenix or her life to a questionable mental state, and yet at the end she’s effectively prepared to die for his cause in what’s basically a final stand against the very people who rescued her years ago. At the same time, her character suffers something of an imbalance with the “Tsundere” bit - in FA and MoA it was more subtle, but here it’s almost trope-worthy blatant. Example; instead of saying “I’m going to quit being a mercenary and open a cat cafe”, she simply says she plans to leave being a mercenary behind and try to finally settle down and start living for herself at long last, which would be an abstract mirror for what Kayto wants to do himself when the war is over and highlight the slight parallels that were shown between the two in FA and MoA. Then, when Icari off-handedly comments on the idea of what kind of job she might get - a business of her own perhaps - and on some pets/cats, you could have Kryska or Claude be the one to suggest she opens a cat cafe, with her actually liking the idea at first until she realizes how humiliatingly embarrassing her admittance is and vehemently denying it in a more well-executed balance of Tsundere behavior. CeraThe funny thing is that not seeing Cera could have, liked every other flaw, worked had it been done better. Like, say, have it be that Kayto simply finds it too daunting and painful to head down to Cera and that dread at it has even kept him from reading reports - from seeing conformation of Maray’s death - highlighting it by having Ava and Chigara point out his pain is keeping him from going. Hell, maybe even have it be so that the reason Kayto goes to the viewing deck and runs into Asaga before she leaves for Ryuvia is to look at Cera from orbit and try to view it as beautiful from above without reconciling the horrible sight the crater will be up close, and have Asaga show an introspective moment by saying she understands how Kayto feels since she’s feeling the same exact dread about going back to Ryvuia and seeing what’s happened there - maybe even echo FA by having Asaga laugh sadly and remark “Heh… now I know how Sola felt at Far Port.” If you want to get some Asaga-and-Kayto groundwork going, you could even have that be the moment they realize they had just as much a connection through both feeling like they failed and abandoned their world and family. Villains This is once again something that could have been solved with an extra story arc; having Chigara start to gradually relive pieces of Alice’s past in the form of nightmares or visions, none of which Chigara properly can remember after waking up. Conversations with Fontana - like an arc where you’re actually working with him like, say, tracking down a certain PACT captain on the Prototype Loyalists side who happens to be responsible for killing a certain mercenary’s family - could have also had Kayto ask about the truth behind Arcadius so as to try and better understand why; why the war, why do the Prototype’s hate humanity, why did so many worlds including Cera have to burn for it - just WHY? And Fontana, while evasive so as not to betray the memory of a dead man he respected, would give away bits and pieces that Kayto himself couldn’t get the whole story from but that the player, combined with Chigara’s “dreams”, could.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 1, 2016 1:42:40 GMT -8
The only other link I'd share that I feel is relevant to "sex sells" vs "story sells" (which is, of course, a false dichotomy) is this one. It feels odd arguing small points with Sharr because I'm pretty sure that we want the same thing, or at the very least I also want there to be a focus on good story with meaningful choices. I just also want a development choice made between either including H content that's well-written along with routes for a few different girls or just abandoning the pretense of Sunrider being eroge. I'm still of the opinion that Academy's scenes were done well apart from one line in Ava's last H scene that made me cringe ("acreage after acreage", oh man). With regard to "meaningful" choices: I should have been clear on what I meant. I was primarily thinking of impact on the script. In Mass Effect, Kaiden vs Ashley is meaningful because it's a choice that persists and has to be dealt with not only throughout the rest of the first game, but comes up in 2 and affects which characters are available to your party in 3. The impact of that single choice is huge. Other choices from ME1/2 are revisited in later games, as well, though I think it's beyond the scope of this thread to list them. I don't feel that Sunrider has many choices like that (and for good reason, really; they increase workload and can snowball), at least not ones where the consequences have actually played out. As far as choices that have a strong moral/narrative impact but are of limited scope to the script, sure, you can affect what the Admiral tells Kayto about what the Alliance will do with Ongess (and Ava's lines regarding how the media responds to the events on Ongess) or the effects of Versta on the Alliance joining the war, but those choices aren't (or haven't yet been) revisited in the script of later games (the only released one being LibDay). The Saveddiplomats flag is referenced a lot in the FA/MoA script, so I'll concede that as a 4th significant choice (although it doesn't seem to be referenced in LibDay and much of what it affects is your pilot's reactions immediately after Versta). I looked through the LibDay script and I can't find any reference to the OngessTruth flag at all, so it seems to be contained to the two effects that I mentioned above. And no, it isn't fair in the slightest for me to compare Sunrider to games like Mass Effect or, for another example, The Witcher with regard to the number of choices/routes/endings available. It's just something to shoot for apart from ME3's ending. The following is an actual spoiler for anyone who hasn't read through the FA/MoA/LibDay scripts: One curious thing, which all of you that've looked through the scripts are already aware, is that many decisions increment/decrement either captain_moralist or captain_prince (and the various girls' affection scores). The only place I can find in the FA/MoA script where it affects anything is which of the ending decisions requires command points; moralist requires cmd to stop Ava from activating the Vanguard whereas prince requires cmd to make her activate the Vanguard (or the Wishall can stand in for cmd in either case). It's an interesting interaction between the combat system and the story, but I'm hoping there will be story branches affected by those two variables that command points can't override. It feels like too many variables/plot points tie into that one decision. I would expect moralist/prince to affect the available menu choices the way that Paragon/Renegade points do in ME, Light/Dark points do in KotOR, etc. The only place that I can find where affection with any of the girls affects anything so far is for Cosette. In FA/MoA, it affects a couple lines of her dialogue at Ongess. In LibDay, you can again use the Wishall to negate the effects of the affection (this is the only potential use of the Wishall that I can find in LibDay), but it determines if she lives or dies in the prologue. I think it'll be high time to cash in some of these affection/prince/moralist points in the next Sunrider game. But I digress. Adding choices of limited scope is a careful balancing act: add too few and the game feels linear (like LibDay did); add too many and it feels like none of your choices really matter (you might make a choice that saves or destroys a planet or parallel universe, but if no one ever mentions it again and you don't see any long-term or delayed consequences, who cares?). I agree that more, in the form of Kayto's reactions and side quest choices, should have been included in LibDay to give it a feel similar to FA/MoA. After reading dozens of Steam reviews, I'm still of the opinion that Academy influenced more people's expectations than you seem to believe (and yeah, I mentioned in my first post both that it had affected my expectations and that those expectations were unreasonable). The fact that there's a forced romance is one of the foremost complaints, like you said... and along with it often goes the complaint that there are no routes for any of the other girls. Maybe it's just the people like me who thought LibDay would have routes (at least early in the development; as it got closer and closer to release and the betas didn't have anything resembling romantic options, it became obvious). If you're just talking about the "diehards" who have been with Sunrider since the Kickstarter began, then yeah, I don't know what those people were expecting since only some reviewers mention when exactly they discovered Sunrider. I'd be curious to know how many people played FA/MoA only after playing Academy. Strange as it may sound, I played FA, then Academy, then MoA. I'm also curious where the intent for different paths for different girls in the main Sunrider games was actually stated by Samu-kun or anyone else on the dev team. Don't get me wrong; the indicators that they'll exist are overwhelming, both systemically and in the games' presentation. I'm just looking for a link with a quote. I'll keep searching, but if anyone else finds one, I'd appreciate knowing. It's late and I've stared at the Sunrider scripts enough for one night. Thanks again! - Sehanine The reason I'd disagree is because the ability to choose one of the girls/that it would be like a route system was something that was anticipated and even teased as a future feature in the main game long before Academy ever came out. If anything, expecting romances from Sunrider was what lead to the creation of Academy, not the other way around. Look at the original kickstarter for evidence of that.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 31, 2016 12:28:22 GMT -8
It's no secret by this point that I wish the Chigara thing had been done better. That said, if executed well, it can have many interesting possibilities using an archtype we rarely see in these kinda games - entering a romance off the back of a recent one that not only failed spectacularly but may arguably have not even been anything real. I could really see each girl having different reactions (brace yourselves - this is gonna be a long one); - Icari; If there is in fact an option to have her be with Kayto and the stuff with Kryska is just a cock-tease (figuratively speaking of course ), then I think Icari in particular would probably be very understanding of Kayto post-Chigara - in her begrudging, sarcastic tsundere way that is. Because, by her own admission in MoA, she’s been here before - doing things she came to regret when she fell into an emotional rut. Hell, it's even arguable that the pirate-guy she mentioned in MoA was a mirror to Kayto and Chigara; a romance she inadvertently started as a dependence tool back when she was learning to cope with her own emotional issues. Plus, her pushing the relationship between Kayto and Chigara as far back as First Arrival might make her feel somewhat responsible for how it ultimately turned out, both with Chigara and with the actions Asaga took.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think an Icari romance would follow, it would be 'Acquiescence'; coming to accept that what happened happened and that it's pointless to dwell because it can't be changed.
- Asaga; She would probably be the same as Icari in this sense - more accepting since she's also guilty of having let emotional neediness and want land her into doing something she wouldn’t really have chosen to do. However, unlike Icari, the wounds would be fresh, so she might have an easier time emphasizing with a Kayto who is still reeling from it then someone who's got a few years hindsight like Icari does. The two could also have a very intimate bond coping mechanic regarding Chigara herself - they both knew her and cared for her in their own way, and her fate might serve as something the two could bond over, be it through regret or acceptance of what happened. It would also be nice to see Asaga have to come to terms with the fact that the girl she thought of as a sister ultimately met the very same tragic end Asaga herself had wished for back in her embittered state. She could also feel guilt over the possibility that she's still just wanting to see Chigara as a willing traitor because she doesn't want to admit her best friend suffered and she couldn't do anything about it, meaning she could pretend like she didn't fail anyone and was 'right' about Chigara all along. That in turn could tie into Kayto's guilt of having not seen it all coming or having let Asaga's hate fester without ever seeing it, and they start to heal each-others pains.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think an Asaga romance would follow, it would be 'Absolution'; learning to forgive oneself of failings and others to move past guilt to a new day for those that remain.
- Ava; The commander would probably more complicated then the others - she's always been a very up-front person when it comes to her opinion of Kayto doing something wrong. So, even with the reconciliation in V2.00, she might not hesitated to deem Kayto all manner of things; selfish, emotional and ultimately having proven her right about his endangering the crew just to try and prove some point to everyone (including himself) about his faith in Chigara not being a dependency act for his own security. Yet in the end, if anything between them were to happen, Ava would probably have to also confront the idea that her own failure to be Kayto’s support from the very beginning - her inability to be the grounding, open, unreserved and emotionally-reassuring second that Kayto himself had been to Ava as school president - might have been part of what lead him to that sorry state. Effectively, a Kayto/Ava pairing would require she'd have to accept that her trying to keep things neutral and unchained only resulted in feeding Kayto's need to have someone accept him without judgement, effectively giving him a persecution complex, and then keep building upon it from there.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think an Ava romance would follow, it would be 'Resolution'; how long-standing feelings can twist events simply because things were left unspoken or unfinished and that how it ends is what matters.
- Sola; Having likely seen death caused by far less, Sola would perhaps be a bit more neutral then anyone else and liken it to this being a general failing of people, which in turn would play into what she'd told Asaga in LibDay; having emotions always risks them going astray. She may likely not agree with how Kayto potentially fell without thinking into a relationship with Chigara, yet might not fault him for it - she would arguably be a far more unbiased judge for character and circumstance in events like this and that vices are very common. In short, Sola would probably be denote that such things were why she works to keep her own ties to others impersonal - yet, ironically, that might also make Sola one of the first to assure Kayto that his weakness of the heart and falling into things probably makes him MORE human, not less. This is something that would likely be a prime issue Kayto would need to confront as questioning his humanity was always an issue for him from MoA onward, as well as likely being a key element in grappling whether or not he was just using Chigara's love for him to comfort his own insecurities.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think a Sola romance would follow, it would be "Introspection"; looking at oneself and possibly seeing their past and present actions with new definitions, thus redefining what is or isn't a fault or strength.
- Claude; If she actually does turn out to be an option, I really imagine she'd either wouldn’t mind or wouldn’t care that Kayto had been with someone else - in fact she's already said so to Alpha in regards to going after Kayto herself. In fact, if you want to get character development for Claude in there as well, it could be that she would be the first to advocate that Kayto WASN'T WRONG to have had that brief relationship with Chigara. By that, I mean Claude would probably say that, even if it ultimately didn’t end well and she herself wished to be with him, being with Chigara helped remind Kayto that he didn’t need to shoulder every burden on his own and that everybody in the world needs someone or something to lean against - it reminded him that he was not a mountain but a man; that he's still human no matter what and that humans need emotional support because they simply are not and never will be perfect. I also think Claude also could possibly be the first to advocate that what happened with Chigara doesn’t mean he can’t trust anyone else with his heart or that he should forever abstain from another relationship, because bottling those feelings up without release was what lead him into over-dependence on a release (his bond with Chigara) the moment he had one - or in short that Chigara was the ice-breaker in teaching him how to be unguarded, as well as a cautionary to remind him what is and/or isn't real love.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think a Claude romance would follow, it would be "Progression"; acknowledging not just what happened but that perhaps that it was needed or even for the best because you learned from it either way.
- Kryska; I think she's regarded largely as a 'bro' character the way Chigara was, though is also far harder to anticipate since she's basically the only girl besides Cosette who's expressed no romantic attraction to Kayto. That said, if something like this did happen, I would imagine it would largely focus on the two's definitions of duty and responsibility - how they both became blinded by the idea the people they fought for (Chigara and Gray respectively) were incorruptible and how their emotional devotion caused them to inadvertently betray the very people and ideals they fought so long and hard to protect. That in turn could play into how the two react to the prospect of trying to find a new cause to fight for in the Sunrider crew in the absence of the Alliance and Cera and the hope of restoring those old goals and integrity, which in turn leads the two down a path together.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think a Kryska romance would follow, it would be 'Determination'; resolving to not let a personal failing defeat them and strive to not repeat it, learning how to keep walking in spite of the hits.
- Chigara; If this is resumed at some point, I really doubt the Chigara Ashada that it's with is anything like the one before the end of LibDay. Between the fact that; A- that her entire past was a lie because it was all actually lived by someone else (Alice/Arcadius) B- that her father was an unapologetic sociopathic monster of a scientist C- that her very existence betrayed Kayto, Asaga and everyone she cared about D- whatever trauma DYING might have done to her mind E- her failed romance with Kayto and the belief that it might have simply been him stress-venting with her as a convenient outlet F- possibly that she knew or suspected the relationship wasn't actually "real" on Kayto's end and did it anyway just to make him happy, sacrificing her own happiness for it G- assimilating traits from Lynn or Alice in whatever hive-mindstream the Prototypes are all connected to ;Whatever's going to be seen has a really, really low chance of still being the same Chigara from before. In turn, Kayto would have to confront the fact that he not only failed her because of her death but because, without even realizing it at the time, he'd manipulated her for his own comfort and took advantage of her unconditional love and effectively ruined her. Any future relationship between the two would have to deal with not only the implications of what that original bond really was but on how to try and move past it, as well as whether or not the two even really still feel for each-other and if they ever actually were in love to begin with. Chigara also, no longer protected by her innocent naiveté in the shared memories of the Prototypes, may probably come to understand something she might never have truly felt before; bitterness and angst. This might help to tie into Kayto's own feelings of it and make her realize that perhaps she wasn't quite so understanding of his full feelings as she believed, as unconditional affection isn't always the answer and can even make things worse. That would make her question whether her prior "love" was just empathy, and in turn she and Kayto would have to find out if it was or wasn't real and where they'd go from there.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think a Chigara romance would follow, it would be 'Devotion'; staying the course one has previously taken out of obligation, a sense of responsibility or love regardless of what transpired before.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 31, 2016 12:14:58 GMT -8
Honestly, I am still partial to the idea that the final romantic choice should be done at the end of the main story. The other installations are all technically a 'common route' while you build up your relationships and learn more about all the characters as the story progresses. That way you can learn more about everyone and see how they all change rather than lime-lighting one person and leave the rest completely out of the image. We all saw how that turned out when Kayto focused only on Chigara and hardly talked to Asaga, causes major tensions. Not to mention, there are a lot more than 3 girls in sunrider. Even if we only look at the main team and none of the other factions' ladies we have: Ava, Asaga, Chigara, Icari, Claude, Sola, and Kryska. That would be 7 routes already. The amount of work for Samu to have to write and code 7 times the normal amount of work just so each girl gets her own part of the story. That's why I think it'd be best to not break the main story up into routes until the very end, where it could be more of an epilogue: "what happened to Kayto and his chosen girl after Cera is finally saved?" For a spin-off game, like Sunrider Academy, that is completely fair game. And if Love in Space want to make more spin off games that focus a lot more on specific characters, that'd be totally fine. But as long as we are talking about the Main flag ship series, I feel it'd be best to not implement routes quite yet. Nobody said one person had to be lime-lighted - just that there's at least inclinations. Dinner, an exclusive scene here and there, ect. Second point's also redundant - he knows there's more then three. He was suggesting splitting them up to have three routes available per game. You know, since it seems like Sunrider has at least two more games planned? That way there wouldn't be a rush to cram like seven different routes into one game?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 31, 2016 1:34:55 GMT -8
...I'm just going to put some link here and there to make the discussion more interesting. In all cases, the original Sunrider had a big number of owners because it appealed to a lot of different markets; with a price tag now however things get uglier and Samu-kun must simply decide what to prioritize. Sorry to naysay, but... I don't see how those change anything. Like, at all. "High quality anime sex" isn't the same as "pure fanservice all the time", last I checked - you can throw boobs at the viewer all you want, but you still have to make them care or else they'll go somewhere that will. Same for the "for space girlfriend" bit, really - you kinda need the story and narrative (or at least for the romance) to be engaging or else it doesn't entice. Again, Chigara in LibDay kinda proved that.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 30, 2016 23:49:43 GMT -8
No. No, I really think that's you. Hell, If I'm honest... I'm only doing this 'cause I kinda pity you at this point. You have close to 200 reviews where people say the story is what made the game feel off to them - with even the positive comments criticizing it, and loads of people saying that REMOVING the sex-scene would IMPROVE LibDay... and you actually are trying to pretend it's not true? That's not a difference of opinion - that's ignorance of fact. Plain and simple. See... again, LibDay shoots that claim full of holes. If "it's no problem at all to transition from the Sunrider we have now to a more fanservice oriented game"... then why did LibDay fail? If people just want fanservice, they wouldn't have minded being forced through the Chigara thing because they would know more was coming - instead the vehemently rejected it in spite of knowing something different would come later. Why? Because people are not that stupid. If the game was that way from the start, they'd expect it and you'd have a different audience Again, yes it very much does stand in correlation - just having sex-scenes doesn't do anything unless you have narrative reason for it in the story. In more light-hearted, comedy-blended games like Majikoi or NobleWorks, you can get away with things like that because that's part of the genre - romantic-comedy. Sunrider is closer to Mass Effect - science-fiction fantasy, with romance being a smaller mechanic. Everyone who got LibDay also tried out MoA and FA beforehand because it was free - and they ALL LIKED IT BETTER. Even people who'd never played Academy felt LibDay lacked compared to MoA and FA, and neither of those games had any romance like LibDay did. Fanservice has been more a part of Sunrider as opposed to the focus, and changing that is just going to make the game, to be honest, either laughed off or shrugged off in favor of something different. Nekopura is, again, set in an entirely different genre then Sunrider, is published by a big-name developer, is a single title and is start-to-finish set in a comedic-hentai narrative. Literally everything about it narratively and setting-wise is different from Sunrider. Trying to use that as an example is not only the biggest strawman I've ever seen, but it begs the question of if you even know what "differing genres" even means. "Abundant sex and fanservice" doesn't create lasting impressions - "well-implemented and well-executed sex" does. Nekopura never tried to play itself as more then it was; a hentai-objectifying VN. Sunrider is not and did not, so your example is moot at best and completely wrong at worst. Again though - if that were the case, LibDay wouldn't have failed. Nobody would have asked the Sex be REMOVED/OPTIONAL there if that were the case. Nobody would have asked for more story over sex or asked that the romance be paced better if that were anywhere near true. They would have just waited for the next game with no fuss. Now for the obligatory rude remark; to me, the only thing this "foreshadows" ... is that you shouldn't ever go into marketing. Because if you try to make "Sunrider 4" like Nekopura... people are going to go "why don't I just get Nekopura? What's unique about this?" It's not that I was taking it serious - it's just that at this point... well, honestly speaking, I feel like at best you just don't know the first thing about what made people like this game... and at worst that you simply think with your genitals when it comes to believing what makes an RPG good. I don't think it's that I'm too serious - I just don't think people are idiots like you seem to believe. You seem a little upset Sharr. I tend to joke around and get cynical when discussing ridiculous things like story vs. fanservice, if you took offense to my jokes I'm sorry Just to get that straight. I also want to clarify that I'm pesonally strictly against going down the excessive "h-route." I have no idea why you're trying to shove me in that direction with statements like "that you simply think with your genitals when it comes to believing what makes an RPG good" Guess, I'll also have to overlook your remarks concerning me and not knowing what "genres" are. You clearly know that I have experience and that I'm actually well versed in terms of writing, and intended to give me a little (provoking) jab. If you really want to carry this on I'll hereby respond one last time concerning this subject, but know that I have no interest in keeping this going. "I feel like at best you just don't know the first thing about what made people like this game" I know well what (some) people like about Sunrider, and its for the same reasons that I'm still here. What I say all this time is, that reducing the game on the waifu aspect would be financially more lucrative than expanding upon gameplay + story. Nekop. is a great example for this concept - not because it's similar/comparable to the Sunrider we have now - but because it serves the same target audience as a potential "fanservice Sunrider." And that audience is enormous. Academy was undeniably a step towards "fanservice Sunrider" and it sold amazingly well, what I want to hear now are valid reasons why the main game shouldn't take the same route? Well, financially speaking there are no reasons. Adding gameplay, focusing on good writing, mecha CGs etc. is harder than to focus solely on the girls. LibDay was a flop - that's a fact. So why should Sunrider even bother with taking risks and potentially flop again? Why don't go the safe, cheap and easy route and focus only on waifus? Why not Academy 2.0? These are some sincere and honest questions I have for you, as a fan who despises Academy and is only here because of the main game. We essentially had the same discussion with Samu and Drath a while back, it was basically about how expensive it is to focus on gameplay and create+balance battles, and how much more story content Sunrider would have had if the devs would have put less focus on battles. We're taking this thought to an extreme an bring it full circle. fanservice (more profitable) > gameplay AND story. (in relation to the work you have to put in those factors respectively.) The "fanservice approach" works extremely well: nekop. (probably most succesfull VN on steam) and is also applicable to Sunrider (ex. Academy.) No, that's just it - I'm not upset. I'm blunt because I'm a blunt person, not because of... well, whatever emotional drama it is that you seem to be fishing for here . So let me set something straight in turn for you - it was never your jokes or whatever. I simply flat-out disagree with your argument's entire premise. You were basically pushing a "sex = sales" argument, a "people only care about sex" belief and a "people will forgive bad writing if it looks good" claim. You outright said that's how it would work REGARDLESS of how you personally feel about it, and I disagreed. I also opted to reflect your passive-aggressive humor in comments - if you found those more or less "shoving" then your own comments, you're probably the one that was missing the humor here. Not that I'd blame you - I can type a very deadpan tone . Problem though is that... no - I really DON'T. I don't see how I or anyone could "clearly know" when you've done nothing to prove it - you've spent the past few comments comparing Nekopura of all things to this out of some kind of passive-aggressive humor, and only after being pressed are you dropping that. The thing with that suggestion, though? That's pretty much exactly what was done with Chigara in LibDay - and it was not received well. The fact that so many people protested it is, again, pretty conclusive proof that reducing it is NOT going to be more lucrative considering how much LibDay bled out financially - if your theory was right, LibDay's romance wouldn't have been so badly received, let alone critiqued as one of the biggest flaws in the entire game. What I'm saying is that LibDay wouldn't have gotten the complaints it did if what you said really reflected what the majority want from it. The issue is that it is expressly NOT - it's actually about the worst example you could possibly use because that's an entirely different audience altogether. A "fanservice Sunrider" would not be received anywhere near as well as you're thinking because you're advocating they strip out what makes it unique - you're pushing that they make it "just another run-of-the-mill mindless fanservice game." And with the market already saturated with those, what's going to make Sunrider stand out more then Nekopura if you try to force it into the same breed? Academy was not representative of the main series. It was created specifically to showcase comedy-romance - it was an entirely different genre then the main games. And said "reasons" were already cited at length - by everyone who had a problem with the romance in LibDay; - It ruins any enjoyment of the romance - It trivializes the bond the captain had with whoever's in it - It's so forced and tasteless that it literally makes people wonder why they didn't just go and get an actual comedy-romance-objectification game instead of Sunrider - It actually grinds against the main plot because it's handled so poorly See, this is what you kept repeatedly missing and why I said you didn't seem to comprehend the difference in genres - you don't look like you know the difference between a character-driven narrative (Academy, where lightheartedness and character-interaction drive everything) and a story-driven one (Main games, where everything is driven by the overreaching story and the tone is generally more balanced and paced). LibDay's response seems a pretty good financial reason to me - a glimpse of the downturn that would result from making it just fanservice without any actual narrative point to it. It was expressly because LibDay focused solely on a Chigara-centric narrative that so many people said it FAILED, which is why your claiming it magically wouldn't do so a second time with a different girl(s) baffles me. What you're suggesting is a cycle of making poorer and poorer games to compensate for less and less income as the audience that supported it give up on it. LibDay was a flop - so why are you trying to push for repeating the exact same thing that so many people claimed sunk it? Focusing on just the waifus without proper narrative reason for it/forcing it arbitrarily - that was what happened with Chigara , AND IT FLOPPED! Sunrider is not Academy - it's two different genres with two separate narrative styles, both of which have things that do or do not work for said narratives. I said what I did because you kept making the honestly-boneheaded move of generalizing everything to such a severe degree. Also - not going to mention you were here purely for the gameplay and not the story at all, huh? Again, LibDay pretty conclusively disproved this since all anyone asked of the story was to REMOVE the sex-scenes. Taking it to the extreme would bottom it out - which is why I say again; please don't go into marketing. The fanservice approach works for romantic-comedy parodies. Sunrider's main game doesn't exist in that genre with that narrative, and you can't just splice it in like it's nothing - it will come across as pandering at best. People have said they would prefer more story over and over if given the choice - why is it you don't want to believe that?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 30, 2016 23:05:26 GMT -8
You call that a big name developer? >_>
Nekopara huh..? I hate that VN as much as I hate cute cat girls. ... ... I-it's not like I like them or anything! I hate them! They're so stuupid! Stuuuuupid! But no seriously I hate it. ... ... ... ... Ahh, it's so adora- ?! ...
What are you looking at. Bigger then Love in Space, at least, if their budget is anything to go by - besides, that's a typo. I meant to say "publisher" which is Sekai Project, which Sunrider is also published by I think (though I admit I thought their role in it was bigger). Big name like that ensures it's going to get views, and unlike Sunrider it wasn't started crowdfunded project - it was a company-developed game all the way through.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 30, 2016 17:42:56 GMT -8
... OK - now I'ma gonna rant a bit, here; If the sex stuff comes across as too blatant, it's not gonna matter who it is or how many choices you give; it'll get rejected. Bad options can be as bad as no options, after all. So again, I hold to saying that "sex" in games is different from "sex for the sake of having sex". Plus, Nekopara is kind of a... well, extremely bad example to use - that's a VN where the entire point is exploitation/fanservice as opposed to something with actual story with it, the latter of which sells as well or more so. Fate/Stay Night being the better example. EVERY OTHER GAME in the Sunrider series was received better then LibDay was, so that's about as moot a point as you can get. Plus, consider that Academy is an entirely different genre of VN (hentai-parody) and thus tailored to an entirely different audience then the main games (serious sci-fi fantasy) were, and that many fans would buy it for comedy-relief and for the characters as opposed to just "sex = sales". And by your own admission ("close to MoA"), it didn't surpass MoA. Something I've learned after so long in gaming communities - if they feel the game is very good, money isn't a factor; the fact that MoA was freeware is a big contributor to it doing so well, but not THE biggest contributor - that would be the quality of the product itself. The "effort-reward ratio" in sex-inclusive games is determinant on the RELATIONSHIP that accompanies the h-scenes unless you are going for full-on mindless fanservice for parody-level comedy, which in and of itself is closer to a "fad" or a different genre entirely - again, looking at Fate/Stay Night, Muv-Luv and so-on for examples of this blending done right. You will see a "shitload" of BAD games, probably - at the cost of pride, reputation and whatever premise you were going for. Hell, games like "Ride to Hell: Retribution" which had sex-scenes in every few levels with a bunch of different girls, was rejected as tasteless garbage - there has been nothing but evidence AGAINST that kind of belief you have. Now, if your series was ALREADY built around that kind of shameless-objectification premise, like Nekopara was, it's one thing - gutting a pre-existing premise to shoehorn it in... not so much . Then I must stress that you must be ignoring just about every single person on these forums and on Steam to even have such an opinion, let alone maintain it . You could have as many girls and sex options as possible and it will still get shot down if they are done tastelessly for the theme/setting you are using - games like Sakura Spirit got away with it because the entire setting, from start to finish, is rather expressly based in that kind of over-the-top non-serious parody-comedy that most "ecchi/hentai" games are based in, but more serious games like Fate/Stay Night, Grisaia no Kajitsu/The Fruit of Grisaia, G-Senjou no Maou/The Devil on G-String and the like require you balance this stuff out so that the storytelling (the key part of VN's and one half of the formula for JRPG-hybrids like Sunrider) isn't compromised by it. LibDay itself should be undeniable evidence to that because even Chigara fans (with a few exceptions like vaen) were put off in varying degrees by how the romance were handled. No - maybe if you weren't so keen on ignoring the story side of things, you'd see that most of those complaints were about a downgrade in WRITING QUALITY because of misplaced priorities. I mean, you're basically arguing that if a game looks and sounds good that it excuses the plot being shit. That was Mass Effect 3's mistake with it's ending, and look how that turned out. Or in short - "Overall" = "you ripping the quote out of context." And story length was at least a bit shorter then FA and MoA even on an individual basis, while story quality was seen as a sharp drop-off because of the lack of agency in the game. The direction being shifted to a linear setting when it was originally closer to a choice-based VN - that IS something they regard as a downgrade in quality because it's taken as going back on the original premise of the games, reducing the impact of prior choices and events. I'ma also going to be a bit rude and say; "Of of course you'd say all this, though (points to thread name) - you weren't playing Sunrider for the story to begin with!" Or in more polite terms - "The story may be irrelevant to YOU, but judging by the response so far it's very hard to take that "story is irrelevant" argument seriously." Or in blunt & rude terms - "I don't think you know the target audience yourself." (readies boxing gloves) OK - hit me with your best shot. Sharr, man. I can tell that you feel very passionate about Sunrider's story and that you try hard to convince me (and others) that it was writing indeed that ultimately led to LibDay's downfall, and why prioritizing h-scenes only, is inconceivable and would never work, but you're so wrong that I can't help but to find this conversation incredibly entertaining. I said that focusing on the girls + h-scenes are key to monetizing the game properly, and a way more obvious and easier choice than to write an amazing story. It's no problem at all to transition from the Sunrider we have now to a more fanservice oriented game. Why? Sunrider of all things.... IS already very much a fanservice oriented game... (implementation in story doesn't even matter much to target audience.) You're right when you say that there will be some sort of backlash from Sunrider hardliners (for ex. people here on the forums.) But that stands in no correlation to the huge sales this product would produce. Nekopara vol. 2 has 98% positive reviews on steam (2410 reviews....) despite so many people calling this game out for the shit it is, (To quote my old swedish SC2 buddy, and now popular streamer Forsen, while playing nekopara: on stream "Oh my god... I can't... It's like a fucking Harry Potter novel of pure autism" ) it has one of the absolute best ratings around. Attention is attention, your reputation is irrelevant if you want to sell a game. (and that's what we're talking about) In the end people that despise your game don't even bother to review it negatively. (like you can see on nekopara.) I'll give you some sick foreshadowing now, should Sunrider 4 take the full-sellout "h-approach" it will become the best received and best sold Sunrider game ever. Maybe 3000 positive reviews, and 2 negative ones: 1. negative by vaendryl: "Damn you Samu... so many good gameplay ideas and nothing implemented, everything replaced by boobs..." 2. negative by Sharr: : " I feel like the anal penetration of the various heroines was definitely a misplacment in priorities. I also believe that Chigara blowing off Shields was utterly out of character, a more platonic kiss on his dick would have been enough." As for me - You wouldn't see any negative remarks. I would have abandoned the Sunrider via. escape pod long before this game's release. Don't take things too seriously, wish you all a good night. ... No. No, I really think that's you. Hell, If I'm honest... I'm only doing this 'cause I kinda pity you at this point. You have close to 200 reviews where people say the story is what made the game feel off to them - with even the positive comments criticizing it, and loads of people saying that REMOVING the sex-scene would IMPROVE LibDay... and you actually are trying to pretend it's not true? That's not a difference of opinion - that's ignorance of fact. Plain and simple. See... again, LibDay shoots that claim full of holes. If "it's no problem at all to transition from the Sunrider we have now to a more fanservice oriented game"... then why did LibDay fail? If people just want fanservice, they wouldn't have minded being forced through the Chigara thing because they would know more was coming - instead the vehemently rejected it in spite of knowing something different would come later. Why? Because people are not that stupid. If the game was that way from the start, they'd expect it and you'd have a different audience Again, yes it very much does stand in correlation - just having sex-scenes doesn't do anything unless you have narrative reason for it in the story. In more light-hearted, comedy-blended games like Majikoi or NobleWorks, you can get away with things like that because that's part of the genre - romantic-comedy. Sunrider is closer to Mass Effect - science-fiction fantasy, with romance being a smaller mechanic. Everyone who got LibDay also tried out MoA and FA beforehand because it was free - and they ALL LIKED IT BETTER. Even people who'd never played Academy felt LibDay lacked compared to MoA and FA, and neither of those games had any romance like LibDay did. Fanservice has been more a part of Sunrider as opposed to the focus, and changing that is just going to make the game, to be honest, either laughed off or shrugged off in favor of something different. Nekopura is, again, set in an entirely different genre then Sunrider, is published by a big-name developer, is a single title and is start-to-finish set in a comedic-hentai narrative. Literally everything about it narratively and setting-wise is different from Sunrider. Trying to use that as an example is not only the biggest strawman I've ever seen, but it begs the question of if you even know what "differing genres" even means. "Abundant sex and fanservice" doesn't create lasting impressions - "well-implemented and well-executed sex" does. Nekopura never tried to play itself as more then it was; a hentai-objectifying VN. Sunrider is not and did not, so your example is moot at best and completely wrong at worst. Again though - if that were the case, LibDay wouldn't have failed. Nobody would have asked the Sex be REMOVED/OPTIONAL there if that were the case. Nobody would have asked for more story over sex or asked that the romance be paced better if that were anywhere near true. They would have just waited for the next game with no fuss. Now for the obligatory rude remark; to me, the only thing this "foreshadows" ... is that you shouldn't ever go into marketing. Because if you try to make "Sunrider 4" like Nekopura... people are going to go "why don't I just get Nekopura? What's unique about this?" It's not that I was taking it serious - it's just that at this point... well, honestly speaking, I feel like at best you just don't know the first thing about what made people like this game... and at worst that you simply think with your genitals when it comes to believing what makes an RPG good. I don't think it's that I'm too serious - I just don't think people are idiots like you seem to believe.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 30, 2016 17:18:05 GMT -8
Whether or not the story was done "very well" is very much debatable, because they very much didn't stick to the same story they seemed to be telling - it was far more constrained then past installments and appeared streamlined to a fault. Ironically, this was what became Mass Effect's downfall as well - continued linearity that ultimately was seen as having stifled what the game originally was. Does anyone have a plot map for Sunrider? There are a lot of flags, but many of them don't seem to really do anything, yet, apart from a few lines of text shortly after the choice that sets them. Any tips for searching the script without reading through the entire thing would also be useful. The point of my question is that I don't believe that FA/MoA really had more meaningful choices. They did, however, have more choices for how Kayto responded to things (the next few lines of dialogue), and, of course, the flags persist through to LibDay and presumably beyond. When I say that they told the story well, I just mean that it was reasonably well-written up to the 1.0 ending. I don't disagree that there weren't many meaningful choices; I just don't think there were ever many meaningful choices in Sunrider. The exceptions being: 1) Whether or not you destroyed the Legion 2) Whether or not you obtained the Wishall and 3) Whether or not you used the Wishall to save Cosette. I still haven't done my second playthrough of LibDay, so I may be missing some. If there were more significant choices in FA/MoA, please remind me. Academy had four different endings depending on the route that you chose and various other smaller changes based on events (such as the student council election). Apart from one of the choices that I mentioned earlier (do I really need to use spoiler tags here? I'm only using them because everyone else seems to), there's only one ending to MoA. The choice in question at the end of MoA, as far as I can tell, makes one graphics change and branches between two scenes that don't otherwise affect the ending of LibDay. This is why I say that the existence of Academy set up expectations for LibDay. Without it, there isn't much basis to be disappointed about a lack of romance options because there were never any to begin with. I know that the FAQ for LibDay had a question, "Can I do my waifu?" and the answer was something non-committal, so I guess there would have been expectations regardless, just no precedent. If you haven't, read Samu-kun's Steam post on 2.0 regarding the voice acting. In short, he said that it took about two weeks to complete and didn't really take much development time at all. Most of the focus was on the combat system and battles. As far as I can see, the "everything" that I mentioned boils down to a route for each girl presented, the combat system, and branching paths. From what I've read, yes, that is exactly what people were expecting. With regard to flags, you're correct; some of those flags did make certain items/ships available in the store. It's plain where my interest lies given the fact that I'd forgotten about it. Randomization of flags was off the top of my head, though it doesn't seem much worse than just setting the flags rather than playing the previous games. Fair enough regarding Maray, but Academy made me more attached to her character than FA/MoA. I agree about balance between story and combat; that's why I suggested having the romance progression affect combat (and maybe vice-versa? you let a girl's ryder get trashed and lose affection? ha!). I'd like to think that Love in Space is growing, and while expectations for LibDay were a bit higher than they should have been, I don't think that larger projects are beyond them; again, it'd just be a long development cycle. Out of curiosity, has any other developer done anything on the same order of complexity as Sunrider's combat system in Ren'Py? While Ren'Py has a lot of tools (and you can use Python itself with it), I don't know that grid-based tactical combat is something it's suited for. Yeah, I hated ME3's ending, as well, so much that I tweeted at the dev team that, once the choice was presented to me, my response was to turn around and shoot the kid in the head. I like to think that they later added that option based on my feedback (even though it was a bad ending). I'm not saying to copy Mass Effect; I'm just saying that it had awesome setting and atmosphere and stealing it is not a bad thing. Thanks for the reply! - Sehanine 1 - The fact that they don't affect the story itself outside of upgrade-choices in LibDay (the sole exception being the Legion choice and whether or not Cosette is spared) was a big complaint, though. This wasn't quite the case with FA or MoA - again, that bit was in fact more close to Mass Effect in that the consequences were more moral-based then effect based. Not to say there weren't choices that didn't have narrative impacts - what you do at Versta in FA (give the Alliance an excuse to build-up forces early or force them to wait until possibly too late, making them more or less prepared as a result) and Ongess in MoA (whether or not the Alliance keeps Ongess as a permanent foothold or promises to return it to independence) is arguably shown as determining how well the Alliance does in the war. So no - I'll be disagreeing with you on there having never been any meaningful choices in Sunrider. 2 - Academy was also set for an entirely different kind of theme; romance-comedy/parody. Yes the relationships had more serious themes and elements in them, but a lot of it - especially Asaga's - was also trope-worthy hentai-comedy. Academy wasn't set to more serious overall tone that Sunrider has and was also constrained to just one game. The main series is spread out over several different "chapters" in a way more akin to Mass Effect where there is a larger overreaching story that you have a degree of agency in, whereas Academy is styled more like Fate/Stay Night where there is a very divergent branch - Academy is more character-driven, whereas the main series was meant to be more story-driven. Point being that it's not just the ending - it's how you get there, and Mass Effect (the first two games at least) proved that if the journey has a satisfying degree of agency that romances and moral choices don't really need to dramatically impact the ultimate ending. LibDay tossed out the formula that made the past two games work - any and all pretense of agency and moral choice were tossed out for what many found a painfully linear plot that was shorter and gave less player agency. So again, I say NO - FA and MoA were what LibDay was expected to match up to in terms of story, and trying to use Academy is pretty much a strawman argument; the outcome would have been the same if Academy never existed. Hell, there are people who DIDN'T play Academy yet still felt LibDay failed compared to the other two. Yes, I've read that - I was talking about how OTHER people said it was the VO's on top of art and battle. Read the Steam reviews to see that - a LOT of them thought it was VO's. 3 - IDK if you've noticed, but that kind of "multi-route romance near the end" was an expectation LONG BEFORE ACADEMY EVER WAS MADE, dating all the way back to First Arrival - it was even in the original kickstarter that this would eventually be a feature, though it was never promised when. So long as it comes eventually, it was not something people dieheard required to be part of LibDay specifically - hell, it doesn't even need to be every girl. Plus, people weren't demanding we get a girl this game - they were demanding we get a choice in whether or not they go all the way with the only available girl in the game. So long as LibDay wasn't the last game in the series, they would not have minded getting no girls so long as they could opt out of one they didn't want - hell, split the "routes" up half-and-half between the next two games or whatever. It's kinda exactly NOT what they were expecting - at least not instantaneously - and it wasn't something that would have made LibDay a better game if the rest of the story failed to support it. 4 - That seems a little extreme to balance... and if anything, it makes it look like you were the one who expected things to be more like Academy . As for others, IDK - I really don't keep up lately. 5 - But that in turn is the point - the main Sunrider series was already like Mass Effect in that it drew people into the narrative without needing to conjure up a dozen different endings for every little choice. Just the moral-interactions and character conversations were enough. It's not stealing it that was the problem - it was that people felt the same mistake that crippled Mass Effect (story linearity suddenly becoming a thing) was being repeated.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 30, 2016 12:03:54 GMT -8
Mm, I'll throw in a piece of gold in a sea of flames. Story: Really, once you have me on board as a fan there's nothing you can publish that I won't love. I love cliches, I love tropes, I love character archetypes. What's so great about character archetypes is that it's everywhere and you can easily fit characters into preordained boxes. More choices, less choices, I don't really care. I'm here for a story, for all the story. Less choices just means I don't have to reload and replay a scene with a different choice as many times. More choices just means I have to go back and replay each and every choice and I end up forgetting what was the original choice and just rolled with whatever seemed to be the community choice. To me, choices only matters if they lead to a significant amount of moar stories. If all I get is an extra scene or an epilogue scene, then I don't really care. There's a reason why I always go for the true ending, because that's the main story the author is telling me and that's the one I want to hear the most. Music: Frankly I was quite surprised at how wonderful the music was for a indie company. The ever glorious chorus in the background, the sharp violin, the deep bass, the high mezzo soprano... It all comes beautifully together. The only times where I heard such glorious music are from music halls, opera, and big budget movies. I never would have expected it from a game. The atmosphere it sets up for you is simply exhilarating. Gameplay: I was ever so slightly let down when they took out the close-up shots of units firing and receiving damage. But, it's not like I wasn't putting them on "skip" mode already so I'm good. My only complaint would probably be the performance issue but there's only so much you can do with renpy. All in all, I really liked the gameplay. I must have played it half a dozen times on captain while it was still in closed testing, each time I was determined to set a new turn # field wipe record. Switching over to SW, it was like a slap to the face but all in all it was still fun. Also, it multiplies the play time by at least 1-2 fold. I'm not going to talk about getting my money's worth (since I'm giving 20$ a month for this), so I really don't know if the gameplay and the hours of gameplay is worth the $25 on steam... But if you're concerned about hours, just play it on a higher difficulty. End Comments: I don't know anything about "fixing" the game, or what "most people" want, or what the "lesson" learned is. I loved the game in 1.0, and loved it even more in 2.0 but that's just my opinion. My opinion is but 1 in the how many multiple digit number this game has sold. And I really hope the developers are able to make their story, their dreams for this game come true. I don't believe in critiquing story or the # of choices. (I know, they still have to make money but still, this is just my opinion.) Why? Because I came here to read a story written by the authors and creators of the game. I came here to read their story, not a story I wanted or a story that fits what I had in mind but theirs. I came expecting a story that will entertain me, and it did. If I wanted a story that'd fit my presets, I'd just save the $25 and go write my own. Or read something else more similar. I think it's more that people felt LibDay's story didn't fit the presets of it's own series (MoA & FA).
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 30, 2016 11:36:31 GMT -8
Disagree there big time - LibDay's failure disproves this. There's a difference between "sex" and "sex for the sake of having sex", the latter of which feels so shoehorned that it ruins enjoyment of it - LibDay looked to many like the latter, and it got lesser marks as a result. Again, people want a story with some agency to it - it's not "Academy 10 times more then Liberation Day" so much as "Half Liberation Day (battle quality) and half Mask of Arcadius (engaging story with player agency)." "Sex for the sake of having sex" works pretty well as long as you let the player choose who he gets to f*ck. Writing an engaging story on the other side is far more demanding for developers. It's not a surprise that a major part of th VN industry pursues the "sex sells" concept, most prominently the nekopara series as an example. Academy had a generic school setting, laughable conflicts, is in its nature far more simplistic than the main game (regarding every aspect: gameplay, story etc.) and yet it is far better received than LibDay, and close to MoA (FREEWARE-GAME). The effort-reward ratio for h-heavy games is much better in general, and I have no doubt that Sunrider's ratings will shoot up if Samu decides to take the "h-approach." (As long as he pays attention to a few simple rules for creating h-games.) If you feel like going full sellout you can even consider siscon options + harem endings, and it WILL work. You WILL sell a shitload of games. If you believe that all the professors, analysts and literature experts out there didn't like the game because of its writing - then I have to disagree. (More girls + more route/sex options + a more cheerful ending initially, and it would have worked out fine. The main plot + gameplay is fairly irrelevant to most people.) People also claim that somehow "quality was downgraded", which is overall not true. LibDay is an improvement in almost every possible aspect (art/CGs, battle, voice acting), story length is equal to FA/MoA individually. Only exception where quality was arguably downgraded is writing, and even here most complaints don't come from "quality issues" but rather "people didn't like the direction" the story took. That's a big difference. -Know your target audience.- ... OK - now I'ma gonna rant a bit, here; If the sex stuff comes across as too blatant, it's not gonna matter who it is or how many choices you give; it'll get rejected. Bad options can be as bad as no options, after all. So again, I hold to saying that "sex" in games is different from "sex for the sake of having sex". Plus, Nekopara is kind of a... well, extremely bad example to use - that's a VN where the entire point is exploitation/fanservice as opposed to something with actual story with it, the latter of which sells as well or more so. Fate/Stay Night being the better example. EVERY OTHER GAME in the Sunrider series was received better then LibDay was, so that's about as moot a point as you can get. Plus, consider that Academy is an entirely different genre of VN (hentai-parody) and thus tailored to an entirely different audience then the main games (serious sci-fi fantasy) were, and that many fans would buy it for comedy-relief and for the characters as opposed to just "sex = sales". And by your own admission ("close to MoA"), it didn't surpass MoA. Something I've learned after so long in gaming communities - if they feel the game is very good, money isn't a factor; the fact that MoA was freeware is a big contributor to it doing so well, but not THE biggest contributor - that would be the quality of the product itself. The "effort-reward ratio" in sex-inclusive games is determinant on the RELATIONSHIP that accompanies the h-scenes unless you are going for full-on mindless fanservice for parody-level comedy, which in and of itself is closer to a "fad" or a different genre entirely - again, looking at Fate/Stay Night, Muv-Luv and so-on for examples of this blending done right. You will see a "shitload" of BAD games, probably - at the cost of pride, reputation and whatever premise you were going for. Hell, games like "Ride to Hell: Retribution" which had sex-scenes in every few levels with a bunch of different girls, was rejected as tasteless garbage - there has been nothing but evidence AGAINST that kind of belief you have. Now, if your series was ALREADY built around that kind of shameless-objectification premise, like Nekopara was, it's one thing - gutting a pre-existing premise to shoehorn it in... not so much . Then I must stress that you must be ignoring just about every single person on these forums and on Steam to even have such an opinion, let alone maintain it . You could have as many girls and sex options as possible and it will still get shot down if they are done tastelessly for the theme/setting you are using - games like Sakura Spirit got away with it because the entire setting, from start to finish, is rather expressly based in that kind of over-the-top non-serious parody-comedy that most "ecchi/hentai" games are based in, but more serious games like Fate/Stay Night, Grisaia no Kajitsu/The Fruit of Grisaia, G-Senjou no Maou/The Devil on G-String and the like require you balance this stuff out so that the storytelling (the key part of VN's and one half of the formula for JRPG-hybrids like Sunrider) isn't compromised by it. LibDay itself should be undeniable evidence to that because even Chigara fans (with a few exceptions like vaen) were put off in varying degrees by how the romance were handled. No - maybe if you weren't so keen on ignoring the story side of things, you'd see that most of those complaints were about a downgrade in WRITING QUALITY because of misplaced priorities. I mean, you're basically arguing that if a game looks and sounds good that it excuses the plot being shit. That was Mass Effect 3's mistake with it's ending, and look how that turned out. Or in short - "Overall" = "you ripping the quote out of context." And story length was at least a bit shorter then FA and MoA even on an individual basis, while story quality was seen as a sharp drop-off because of the lack of agency in the game. The direction being shifted to a linear setting when it was originally closer to a choice-based VN - that IS something they regard as a downgrade in quality because it's taken as going back on the original premise of the games, reducing the impact of prior choices and events. I'ma also going to be a bit rude and say; "Of of course you'd say all this, though (points to thread name) - you weren't playing Sunrider for the story to begin with!" Or in more polite terms - "The story may be irrelevant to YOU, but judging by the response so far it's very hard to take that "story is irrelevant" argument seriously." Or in blunt & rude terms - "I don't think you know the target audience yourself." (readies boxing gloves) OK - hit me with your best shot.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 30, 2016 5:43:03 GMT -8
I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place to post or if what I'm about to say has been beaten to death, but... First, LibDay, in and of itself, is a good game. Yes, it's short. It's clear that the creators were on a mission to tell a specific story, and they did that quite well. The gameplay was also very enjoyable, even on the Ensign setting that I used to see what everyone else was all upset about. I plan on playing through again on Captain with some flags from FA/MoA changed to see what, if anything, they affect. What set people up for disappointment, IMO, is the existence of Sunrider Academy. I *loved* Academy; I put around 55 hours into it somehow, playing a new game for each girl's route. The stat management was fun and the H scenes were good, both in terms of art/description and internal consistency. In short, they all made sense to me; the H in LibDay, in comparison, was actually kinda jarring. I know that Academy was kinda fan service whereas LibDay was a more serious milieu, but given the tone of the story it might've been better to leave the H out entirely (as much as I know that it's ostensibly eroge and people would be upset if you had). What I'm trying to say is that I think people were expecting *everything* that was in FA/MoA and *everything* that was in Academy all stuffed into one game that would take upwards of 60 hours. Somehow, I myself believed that LibDay might have been such a thing, though in retrospect it wasn't realistic given the timeframe and size of the team. So, when LibDay ended up being a good, short VN with awesome battles but without (holy God) a different route for each of 8 (or more?) different girls and possibly additional routes/H scenes for threesomes in addition to other character-building scenes, people were disappointed. I'm really sorry that people weren't okay with the first ending; having played Academy and knowing much more about Maray than anyone that skipped it (did anyone skip it? go play it now!), it was kinda touching. I don't think that the original ending should have been quite as much of a downer as it was regardless of whether or not people knew that more Sunrider games were forthcoming, but that's a matter of taste. The Empire Strikes Back's ending is about the correct amount of negativity for me, and you kinda built back up to that in the 2.0 ending. Speaking of: I understand that 2.0 was rushed out to placate the aforementioned disappointed fans, but I worry that some plot choices that maybe weren't entirely decided were rushed, the big one being Claude. I did appreciate the choices included in 2.0, even if their presence was incongruous with the format of the rest of the game which had fewer choices that seemed to make a bigger difference. As an aside, it might've been better to have an option when starting a new game of whether or not to customize all of the flags/import a save or just use a default set of flags (or randomize them?). It's cool that it can be done, but anyone new to the series is, first, going to be confused and, second, going to be disappointed when many of those flags have no affect on LibDay itself (even if they do/will in future games). It's possible that I just haven't played the game enough or that I'm not noticing small details, but it didn't seem to me that a lot of those choices mattered; a few, very obviously, did. Finally, on Patreon you (at some point I think I started addressing the developers directly; sorry for any confusion) mentioned that the next game would have less gameplay and more H scenes. I think we all agree on the more H scenes part (provided they fit with the story), but I really do like the gameplay in Sunrider. In fact, I'd prefer that choices made within girl's routes actually affect the gameplay the way it does in, say, Persona: give them stat boosts/additional moves/whatever based on route progression. In addition, if you feel like making a truly massive game, I'd love playing the mammoth creation that I mentioned at the start of my post: give us stat management a la Academy + girl routes + FA/MoA/LibDay combat. Have the stat management be things like morale on the ship, supplies, discipline (as in military discipline, not BDSM (not hating, just clarifying)), etc, and again, have it affect the spaceship/ryder combat. I know that it would be a long development cycle and it's tough to keep backers interested, but I'd love to play it. Finally: thanks. I love Sunrider so much that I started to write fan fiction (that I'll probably never finish). - Sehanine/Russell Edit: I remembered one other thing that I wanted to say. Sunrider seems heavily inspired by Mass Effect, and that is a good thing. For everything that people pick apart about what Mass Effect did wrong, it did so, so much right, particularly in terms of atmosphere (the sound design in particular was outstanding). The ship map in LibDay is tacked on, there's no question, but the way that you used it in FA/MoA was correct. Even if there's no plot effect to which order you interact with crew members, it's still nice to feel like you have options and it also kinda recalls the feeling of walking around the Normandy. Similarly, the galaxy map and the music that you used for it in FA/MoA were cool. OK... I'ma gonna critique a few things here. Whether or not the story was done "very well" is very much debatable, because they very much didn't stick to the same story they seemed to be telling - it was far more constrained then past installments and appeared streamlined to a fault. Ironically, this was what became Mass Effect's downfall as well - continued linearity that ultimately was seen as having stifled what the game originally was. First off, I really disagree on what the disappointment was - it wasn't Academy that really set LibDay up for failure; it was Mask of Arcadius and even First Arrival. LibDay was far more linear then either one and was complained as having far less depth then either of those. People felt like focus was shifted to art, battles and even VO's over the story itself. The forced romance was perhaps one of the bigger issues given that a lot of people actually feel things would have worked better without it, and that NOTHING ELSE HAD TO CHANGE regarding the bond with Chigara so long as they could opt out of it being a sexual relationship. Nobody would have minded waiting to pick a love interest - they just minded being arbitrarily forced down that path for a series that had largely advertised itself as "choose your waifu" complete with character polls. The issue wasn't that people were expecting "everything" from FA/MoA and Academy - it's that they felt LibDay had taken NOTHING AT ALL from those three in terms of story and balance. It's not that they wanted more - it's that they felt what they got was less then even a single stand-alone title in the series had to offer. And no - God NO, it was not that people didn't know about Maray. You didn't need to play Academy to know about Maray - just the short flashbacks in MoA (which is free and thus easily viewable) are enough to get the gist of her character. It was simply seen as anticlimactic and abrupt. Also, that thing with the choice flags is another issue in and of itself - they hardly seemed to matter outside of certain benefits in the store being available or not. Having it be randomized like some kind of stat-system seems the wrong choice because it just trivializes it further. That... just sounds worse. What everyone really seems to want is more BALANCE. "More H scenes" without good story to back it up is going to make them fall apart, and less battles is going to just make it another VN. And while your idea on a more massive title isn't bad, it's probably beyond what the dev team could hope to accomplish - especially given that LibDay didn't likely bring in as much money as they hoped. What I think people want is something that balances combat and story - because if one gets more focus then the other, it's going to feel lopsided. Edit: The thing with bringing Mass Effect up though is that you need to consider how, even though it got "so, so much right", it still completely FLOPPED in the eyes of many simply because the final ending it all built up to was seen as being severely lackluster. If the one thing you do wrong drowns out everything else done that was good, you're going to want to address it in some way.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 30, 2016 5:23:36 GMT -8
Wait, was the lesson that the developers learned "Include more H-scenes"? Alright, checked the Patreon and that looks like it was the lesson they took. "It's still too early to say anything concrete but we are going to make a game with not as much game play and more HCGs. I hope it'll also be much longer than Liberation Day, I'm hoping we can make a game longer than Sunrider Academy this time." For the love of god please reassess that lesson. People want choices, they weren't upset by a lack of HCGs. They want actual romance routes. Is there hurt feelings amongst the developers? Do they think that people are ignoring their carefully constructed battle system? Do they think that people just want HCGs and they are going to bow to the lowest common denominator? I think people want a mix of a good battle system and an engaging story where your choices matter. Like, you decide if you trust a character or not. You decide if Kayto is attracted to someone or not. Of course there are plot events that happen no matter what but the choices and views that Kayto can have or hold should be up to the player. Eh, Samu-kun has always said that he believes the fuel to more sales in Steam and everywhere for Visual Novels is sex... and he's not actually that wrong, looking at the market (unless you have a previous anime adaptation). Samu-kun has tried to do what he wanted, he got a big flop and basically criticism from everywhere, so now he's probably going to try what the market has showed it wants (which now is that they want Academy 10 times more than Liberation Day) to minimize risks. I mean, I don't agree either, but from the point of view of a game developer it's a reasonable reaction. Disagree there big time - LibDay's failure disproves this. There's a difference between "sex" and "sex for the sake of having sex", the latter of which feels so shoehorned that it ruins enjoyment of it - LibDay looked to many like the latter, and it got lesser marks as a result. Again, people want a story with some agency to it - it's not "Academy 10 times more then Liberation Day" so much as "Half Liberation Day (battle quality) and half Mask of Arcadius (engaging story with player agency)."
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 27, 2016 11:42:29 GMT -8
I'd rather not have even higher numbers of enemies I also don't think a cheap unit to just throw at us would fit Kushaana. Unlike the other PACT commanders she doesn't seem like the kind of person to use zerg-tactics and sacrifice her people. Actually, I see it as very fitting. Remember that while with low HP, the destroyers are actually middle ranged and should be always in the cover of shields and flaks; they are not just smaller fast Cruisers, but hit&run small units that can attacks you from where you can't attack them due to their high EV.
Them being cheap is just a product of them being her main unit in the Compact revolution, when Compact couldn't afford much and had very few resources, not of being zerg-rush units (with hit&run I actually wanted to mean the opposite of that).
And well, them coming in high numbers also helps the balance; with high numbers you can't simply concentrate all your SHD Jam and Shut Off to make them totally vulnerable, while at the same time being able to destroy some of them and so not being hit full force.
I think you missed his point - namely that; Kushinna and Fontana don't seem the type to want to advocate that same "high numbers" strategy of old. If they're reinventing PACT, of course the units they use wouldn't logically be products of the Compact Revolution anymore - they wouldn't be based off designs from a resource-scarce time if they now have abundant resources. They'd be more apt to make effective and creative use of what they have and improving it with new tech and abilities instead of just throwing numbers at people. I'm hoping you meant them coming in clustered groups instead of just "high numbers", because that's no different from what we already have otherwsie.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 24, 2016 23:26:05 GMT -8
Yeah, I know it was a joke - just being an ass I was talking more making the attack a new staple of the normal PACT Fast-Cruiser. And that would kinda be my entire point - they would be a severe threat in combat that will force you to not rely on the strategy of bunching up defensively. Not like the strategy for dealing with them would be any different form the normal one - you'd just have to react faster. So again, I don't see the "Heavy Destroyer" being anything but redundant since the Destroyers (missile boats) and Fast-Cruisers fill these roles already. Plus you're really underestimating the whole "Can't be prioritized and targeted down in a turn" - anything at Captain or below can be unless they're over 5000-6000 HP like the Ryuvian Falcon or Nightmare Ascendent. In all honesty, the Heavy Destroyer feels like it would be just an annoyance to deal with on the battlefield as opposed to something revolutionary. And in truth, it STILL doesn't really discourage defensive positioning - if it moves so slowly, it allows for sniping or missiles to whittle it down so that you can knock it down by the time it reaches you. Again, the "Combat Cruiser" just feels like another name for the PACT Fast-Carier we already have, just rebalanced. The strategy for dealing with it - not much different. Only because it felt like they were just thrown in one on top of the other - there wasn't any NARRATIVE PACING for the missions. Again, it was always A priority, but not/never THE priority - LibDay's negative response pretty conclusively proved that, I think. I get that. It just feels a bit too soon to be suggesting it like it should be the focus over all else given, again, what happened in LibDay. Anything that does splash dmg, no matter shape, size, form is a plus when decently balanced. So I’m naturally not completely opposed to some kind of “fast Cruiser with splash.” Though, I’ve to say that your argument about “Heavy destroyer” is contradictory. A Unit that has like 900 HP, not only close combat weapons+splash, but also missiles is certainly more likely to be targeted down in turn 1 than something comparable to “heavy destroyer” Why? Fast-Cruiser has low HP, taking it down is simple. (You don’t have to waste a lot of energy to do so.) “Heavy destroyer” has besides low-range plasma cannon NO offensive capabilities unlike “Fast Cruiser.” After turn 1 there is literally nothing it has to offer to do any damage whatsoever. Why should I damage/attack a unit that is no threat over all the other heavy hitters in front of me. No, you prioritize different units, because you DIE when you don’t. Wasting everything you have on a far away super tank is not a rational decision, when you have Battleships, Cruisers, Ryders in front of yourself, which will obliterate you if you ignore them. Also: You don’t balance games on low difficulties. It’s normal that you can pull off anything on waifu or casual mode. SC2 for example was/still is exclusively balanced by devs+professional players. In case of doubts the devs even tend to give in when professionals are dissatisfied with something, plainly because the professionals are better at the game + know it better. So if you actually manage to take down “Heavy destroyer” on Captain and then somehow manage to survive the onslaught of your direct threat/enemies you chose to ignore in turn 1, then thumps up. You did it, even against common sense. Man, I’m really upset that you try to actually discredit “combat Cruiser”, while I believe that this one (or something comparable) is by far the best and most needed unit for future games. You don’t even try to explain why. You just say it’s like “Fast Cruiser”, and that’s it. “The strategy for dealing with it - not much different.”You couldn’t be more wrong, and I will once more explain in detail how this unit is supposed to work + compare it to “Fast-Cruiser” “Fast Cruiser” charges into you, often without shield support. (Ships that provide shields are not as fast and often want to keep a safe distance anyway.) This makes it very easy to destroy them, because they simply run in to you. They normally come in groups and therefore have a decent flak-network, but besides missiles you can use everything (kinetics, lasers, pulse, assault when they have low hp) This does NOTHING to your formation/positioning. “Combat Cruisers” on the other hand keep their distance (mid-range) and do impressive, reliable damage to you (Railgun) They operate near Capital ships and carriers, so they have shield support. Now, the super defensive player has huge problems, because all his shields and flaks suddenly do shit. He can try to shut-off (Chigara) shields of the capital ships to laser down the “Combat Cruisers”, but since lasers do rather low damage, he will be punished hard. Or the player tactically advances forward and uses his heavy kinetics to finally bring those pesky “Combat Cruisers” down. “Combat Cruisers” are supposed to effectively zone the player out. (something like this is in FACT revolutionary for Sunrider ironically ) “Combat Cruisers”, unlike almost every enemy so far can’t be hard-countered by sitting back. Hard-counter for those Cruisers would mean to activate your brain and smoothly move forward without getting reckless. "Only because it felt like they were just thrown in one on top of the other - there wasn't any NARRATIVE PACING for the missions."Complains went well beyond narrative passing only, it was also the uninspired, unmemorable mission design that people didn’t like. But we also had positive exceptions like the last mission of LibDay. "I get that. It just feels a bit too soon to be suggesting it like it should be the focus over all else given, again, what happened in LibDay."I merely do what I'm good at. How much attention the devs want to sacrifice in improving gameplay is up to them. But wasn't that why the Fast-Cruisers attacked in packs? To mitigate the chance of being intercepted? Coupled with other units, they'd be a far greater threat then a slower and more ponderous unit - if anything I'd thing it would actually cause imbalance because it would be extremely easy to prioritize what to attack if their movement speed was that starkly differing. Taking down ONE Fast-Cruise might be easy, but taking down six - three from each flank - when you've got other units in front of you is another thing entirely. Those bearing down on you would cause more of a speeding-bullet feeling then a slow ship that won't be an immediate concern/need to focus on for the next two turns because it has only one attack that it can't use unless it's right in your face. And you do realize that you really did just kinda discredit your own argument, right? Range that short and speed that slow, you're basically saying you have the chance to clear the field of dangerous opponents before the Destroyer becomes close enough to be a threat. You also... well, completely and utterly misinterpreted what I said. I said WEAKEN them at a distance with missile barrages so that they're easier to gut by the time they finally reach you a few turns later. I never - NOT EVEN ONCE - said to focus exclusively on them to the point of ignoring everything else, and I really wonder how you even thought of, let alone reached, that conclusion . So yeah - I still think the Heavy Destroyer would be a redundant unit and that's my final opinion. "Discredit?" I'm saying this kind of unit already exists in the Fast-Cruiser and that the Fast-Cruiser would force rethinking more readily. It is basically just a more nimble, more armored version with longer range, but the role you're proposing it for is once that a rebalanced/upgraded Fast-Cruiser would fill just as well without having to create an entirely new ship breed for it. It's "railgun" won't be much of a deterrent since "impressive, reliable damage" is what EVERY ship can do if the shots connect - and if it's the ONLY ship that has this out of all others, you simply prioritize Sola to snipe them out with her weapon, use support (I assume Lynn(?)) for anti-flak instead of anti-shield (shutdown costs more energy then flackoff so the latter makes more sense) or if pressed you use the Vanguard Cannon to just cut a hole in the guard if you absolutely must. If you think a fleet of close-range Fast-Cruisers won't break a defensive line, what would one new unit do? It would NOT really be revolutionary - it would at best force the player to destroy at least one or two in a turn so take the heat off. You would not need to move forward or change a defensive strategy in the slightest. Applying these traits to a pack of Fast-Cruisers would make them a far greater threat then a "Combat Cruiser" would - it would just be a "priority target" instead of "intense threat." Again, the mission design felt bad because the narrative behind it was bad - it's interconnected. Any battle fan feel uninspired and unmemorable if the set-up for it is bad or nonexistent. I'd think that would involve knowing when to pace something.
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