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Post by 白龍 on Mar 12, 2016 14:40:27 GMT -8
It's a whole sub-branch from Visual Novels. Kinetic Novels, where you have little to no choice/choices that do not impact the story path. There are quite a few of these now, they're growing in popularity.  So, let opinions be opinions and let's leave it at that?  (Points to above statement) I never said it had to affect the story. And even Kinetic Novels give the illusion of choice - loving someone no matter what choice you make can be received more positively if you can decide how that love is shown. Illusion of choice. Hmmm.... That reminds me... A game that really mastered the illusion of choice well was Agarest Generation of War. Well, okay. You could say that was just a tjrpg. But there's romance and story in it! Where the illusion came in was, you could make your choices. You could romance whoever you want, 5 different times. But you always end up following the same story path? |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 15:17:01 GMT -8
(Points to above statement) I never said it had to affect the story. And even Kinetic Novels give the illusion of choice - loving someone no matter what choice you make can be received more positively if you can decide how that love is shown. Illusion of choice. Hmmm.... That reminds me... A game that really mastered the illusion of choice well was Agarest Generation of War. Well, okay. You could say that was just a tjrpg. But there's romance and story in it! Where the illusion came in was, you could make your choices. You could romance whoever you want, 5 different times. But you always end up following the same story path? Yes, that's about the gist of what I meant would work for Sunrider - you could follow the same overall premise with the same story path no matter what, but just a bit of agency makes all the difference. Hell, a tjrpg-VN hybrid in is pretty close to what Sunrider was/is for the most part. Kayto growing to love Chigara - I don't think that would have been complained about so much if there was the ability to choose if it was sibling love or romance love. |
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Post by 白龍 on Mar 12, 2016 15:42:09 GMT -8
Illusion of choice. Hmmm.... That reminds me... A game that really mastered the illusion of choice well was Agarest Generation of War. Well, okay. You could say that was just a tjrpg. But there's romance and story in it! Where the illusion came in was, you could make your choices. You could romance whoever you want, 5 different times. But you always end up following the same story path? Yes, that's about the gist of what I meant would work for Sunrider - you could follow the same overall premise with the same story path no matter what, but just a bit of agency makes all the difference. Hell, a tjrpg-VN hybrid in is pretty close to what Sunrider was/is for the most part. Kayto growing to love Chigara - I don't think that would have been complained about so much if there was the ability to choose if it was sibling love or romance love. I was one of the ones that didn't complain about it. o///o Hm, but I play VNs differently from most people. I read them for the story, which means I usually go down all the paths. Just to see what's on the other side. So I didn't really mind there not being any routes. It's just like watching a TV show I imagine. (Not that I would know since I don't watch TV...) Hmm. I imagine the writers already have some sort of plot for the future. Also with romance already involved, having to account for several different path while sticking to the main story is really, really difficult since we're this far in. Agarest Generations of War pulled it off because the story didn't follow just one character, but 5 different ones. Albeit each one was the son of the previous one... But you get the idea. |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 12, 2016 15:49:15 GMT -8
Kinetic Novels actually have 0 choices and 0 player agency. No illusion of choice there.
Now, I'm not arguing about Sunrider being like this, because as I said before, the illusion of choice is important. But there are a lot VNs in which the order of romance is enforced, and what you choose is if you continue reading or not. I was not even arguing for my opinion, but rather explaining to you a specific genre amongst VNs that's actually very praised. I don't even know how can I be contradicting myself when telling a fact. And Samu-kun may want to work with that, the problem being we can't even see if it's done well until the game is finished. I never even spoke about my personal opinion
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 15:57:59 GMT -8
Yes, that's about the gist of what I meant would work for Sunrider - you could follow the same overall premise with the same story path no matter what, but just a bit of agency makes all the difference. Hell, a tjrpg-VN hybrid in is pretty close to what Sunrider was/is for the most part. Kayto growing to love Chigara - I don't think that would have been complained about so much if there was the ability to choose if it was sibling love or romance love. I was one of the ones that didn't complain about it. o///o Hm, but I play VNs differently from most people. I read them for the story, which means I usually go down all the paths. Just to see what's on the other side. So I didn't really mind there not being any routes. It's just like watching a TV show I imagine. (Not that I would know since I don't watch TV...) Hmm. I imagine the writers already have some sort of plot for the future. Also with romance already involved, having to account for several different path while sticking to the main story is really, really difficult since we're this far in. Agarest Generations of War pulled it off because the story didn't follow just one character, but 5 different ones. Albeit each one was the son of the previous one... But you get the idea. I don't expect every character to be a romance option, though. And in reality, what happened with Chigara, albeit re-worked, seems a model to ensure that kind of thing doesn't happen - have Kayto get really close to someone and then subsequent scenes become much easier to make into either platonic or romantic. With LibDay, it really would take all of one new CG, removing the sex-scenes and a few different lines of dialouge to make those scenes with her become a bond more like a little sister - it probably wouldn't take much more effort to do the same with other characters. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 16:06:36 GMT -8
Kinetic Novels actually have 0 choices and 0 player agency. No illusion of choice there. Now, I'm not arguing about Sunrider being like this, because as I said before, the illusion of choice is important. But there are a lot VNs in which the order of romance is enforced, and what you choose is if you continue reading or not. I was not even arguing for my opinion, but rather explaining to you a specific genre amongst VNs that's actually very praised. I don't even know how can I be contradicting myself when telling a fact. And Samu-kun may want to work with that, the problem being we can't even see if it's done well until the game is finished. I never even spoke about my personal opinion The thing is, VN's where the order of romance is enforced does not immediately translate into said romance lacking any sort of distinctions or agency at all. It's only "very praised" if you do it RIGHT, and that requires an illusion of choice be present - such as giving distinction to what way it was that you loved someone, which in turn removes the feeling that it's contrived and awkward. LibDay did not do that very well - which almost contradicts saying that illusion of choice is important if you're trying to say that LibDay fits into that kind of genre as-is. That's not even counting the fact that those games you're talking about - they're typically stand-alone titles, whereas Sunrider was somewhat portrayed as giving choices that mattered (or at least look different enough to give the illusion of choice) across a whole series, and not being able to define how you care about a character kind of rubs people the wrong way - having it be plot-enforced that Kayto cares and even loves Chigara is something I don't think would have caught flak if only there'd been the choice to define that love as being either sibling or romantic. |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 12, 2016 16:32:49 GMT -8
... You know that MuvLuv Alternative, constantly rated as the best translated VN was precisely a series that had spanned already 2 long (30+ hours or more) games with different routes that ended with a final ending in which you couldn't choose the love interest? Here it's not even final.
The illusion of choice, at least in terms of romantic pairings, has never been a worry of kinetic VNs. Mostly because most kinetic VNs rely on making their characters whole, in the sense that "choice" itself doesn't make sense because that character "isn't you". A lot of not kinetic VNs actually present illusion of choice through things very different than romantic partners (like Fate), and then there's Princess Waltz, which like was before stated is basically identical to Liberation Day in that issue.
Again, I'm not even talking about my opinion, but about facts of a genre that's been a clear inspiration to Samu-kun (Muvluv in particular is one of its big influences).
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Post by Histidine on Mar 12, 2016 16:55:42 GMT -8
First - Again, you're arguing factors that have no bearing on this. I said it was a factor that a lot of people - which I estimated to be "roughly 50%" - got the game for. [...] Fourth - You're arguing semantics here. "At best" and "At most" are the same thing - inferences from the most generous standpoint for a statistic. "Half the selling points" does not mean "this is a factor that influenced half the people to get this game" (hint: as read, one must logically sum to 100% and the other need not.) I have been telling you this to the point of tedium. You appear to insist on missing the point. '"At best" and "At most" are the same thing' - yes, thank you for repeating what I said. "At best" and "at most" can be read as "inferences from the most generous standpoint". "Roughly" CANNOT. In other words: roughly 50% of Mass Effect's selling points I said it was equal/50% at bestare not the same thing. Which is what I have been pointing out. In case you need the point hammered in: sort the following words into two groups of similar meanings:
roughly
at best
at most
best case
base case
median
mean I keep telling you "that is NOT what those words mean" and you keep pretending that it is without even the least attempt to justify it. I have not the time or the inclination to make a discussion work with such constraints. This conversation is over. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 17:08:36 GMT -8
... You know that MuvLuv Alternative, constantly rated as the best translated VN was precisely a series that had spanned already 2 long (30+ hours or more) games with different routes that ended with a final ending in which you couldn't choose the love interest? Here it's not even final. The illusion of choice, at least in terms of romantic pairings, has never been a worry of kinetic VNs. Mostly because most kinetic VNs rely on making their characters whole, in the sense that "choice" itself doesn't make sense because that character "isn't you". A lot of not kinetic VNs actually present illusion of choice through things very different than romantic partners (like Fate), and then there's Princess Waltz, which like was before stated is basically identical to Liberation Day in that issue. Again, I'm not even talking about my opinion, but about facts of a genre that's been a clear inspiration to Samu-kun (Muvluv in particular is one of its big influences). ... YOU do know that game dealt with alternate-timelines and looping realities, right? And a protagonist who'd had his personal life re-done multiple times, with a timeline where one of the two characters from Muv-Luv Extra didn't even seem to exist? Ergo - how the hell does that even come close to applying here? It's rated so well because the story is so good, not because of it's format (plus, watch it when saying "the best" - if there's one thing I've learned, it's that doing this is a quick way to start wars, regardless of if it's true or not  ) The thing is, Unlike Princess Waltz, what was done with Chigara wasn't done in a way that was believable or deep enough to make it not feel awkward and forced to the player. Also, Princess Waltz was a stand-alone game that introduced that as the starting point to build from before divulging - whereas Sunrider has the disadvantage of this feeling to many like two prior games of narrative choice-making were utterly tossed out. Had LibDay been the first game in the Sunrider series, you might have had a point and it might have gotten away with kicking it off having Kayto in a relationship - but it's not, so it's not quite so easy. Likewise, I'm stating the opinion shared by a lot of the people who bought it - out of the current story-content, forced romance was a problem that matched the severity of the issues people had with the ending. Hell, I think one other poster here said it was actually a BIGGER issue then the ending was. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 17:20:41 GMT -8
First - Again, you're arguing factors that have no bearing on this. I said it was a factor that a lot of people - which I estimated to be "roughly 50%" - got the game for. [...] Fourth - You're arguing semantics here. "At best" and "At most" are the same thing - inferences from the most generous standpoint for a statistic. "Half the selling points" does not mean "this is a factor that influenced half the people to get this game" (hint: as read, one must logically sum to 100% and the other need not.) I have been telling you this to the point of tedium. You appear to insist on missing the point. '"At best" and "At most" are the same thing' - yes, thank you for repeating what I said. "At best" and "at most" can be read as "inferences from the most generous standpoint". "Roughly" CANNOT. In other words: roughly 50% of Mass Effect's selling points I said it was equal/50% at bestare not the same thing. Which is what I have been pointing out. In case you need the point hammered in: sort the following words into two groups of similar meanings:
roughly
at best
at most
best case
base case
median
mean I keep telling you "that is NOT what those words mean" and you keep pretending that it is without even the least attempt to justify it. I have not the time or the inclination to make a discussion work with such constraints. This conversation is over. First - I feels more like you're missing the point here. If you equate something to being "half the selling point", that IS the same as saying "this is a factor that influenced half the people to get this game". That's what I got from watching how the core fan-base operated back when ME was still current (that hint is redundant - I already pointed out that I'd termed ME as being divided between "story-lovers" and "waifu-lovers"). Ergo - I restate; I didn't miss anything. Second - Not quite true. "Roughly" assumes an estimate of something, which in turn CAN and in many cases IS born of inferences from the most generous standpoint. What I said still holds - "roughly 50%" was my claim. When you tried to accuse me of saliency bias, I pointed out you could not because, AT BEST, I said the most you could say was that I equated it as equal to story and never that it was stand-alone superior to all others. In short - this is the result of another miscommunication. Third - That's just it; YOU are the one that insisted on debating this stuff instead of the thing I was even using it as an example for - the fact that having at least some degree of agency in a romance will satisfy people regardless of if it doesn't impact the main story itself. That so long as people feel they have a choice in those interactions and possible romances that the story itself doesn't need to change/be different for every possible waifu. That was what I originally was debating, and that's what you in turn don't even seem remotely interested in focusing on - even though it's the entire point of this thread. |
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Post by vaendryl on Mar 12, 2016 17:44:27 GMT -8
What I see being repeated very often is that a non-sexual relationship with Chigara could've worked just as well for the plot as though this is fact. I do not agree, but this is a point I can see people having valid conflicting opinions over.
however, that's only taking the plot into account to the point it is publicly known thus far. Depending on how future events end up being shaped by the events in all of Sunrider (all 3 parts that is) it may end up obvious to all that a non-sexual relationship wouldn't have worked and major future events would likely have to follow a drastically different path had things gone differently. a path that may not even be interesting to explore, let alone economical to produce. It's too early to tell, but if things head in the direction I expect this seems likely to me. again though, a lively discussion on the bigger picture seems pointless at this moment.
that said though, the ire this 'issue' raises baffles me. if just this bothers you for the love of god never play school days. that game delights in fucking with the player and making a mockery of what the player chooses. getting railroaded into a relationship with a girl is the very first thing that happens and getting out again is all sorts of painful no matter what you do. and that's not even the worst of it. and yet the game seems fairly popular anyway. it will forever boggle my mind.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 18:26:06 GMT -8
What I see being repeated very often is that a non-sexual relationship with Chigara could've worked just as well for the plot as though this is fact. I do not agree, but this is a point I can see people having valid conflicting opinions over. however, that's only taking the plot into account to the point it is publicly known thus far. Depending on how future events end up being shaped by the events in all of Sunrider (all 3 parts that is) it may end up obvious to all that a non-sexual relationship wouldn't have worked and major future events would likely have to follow a drastically different path had things gone differently. a path that may not even be interesting to explore, let alone economical to produce. It's too early to tell, but if things head in the direction I expect this seems likely to me. again though, a lively discussion on the bigger picture seems pointless at this moment. that said though, the ire this 'issue' raises baffles me. if just this bothers you for the love of god never play school days. that game delights in fucking with the player and making a mockery of what the player chooses. getting railroaded into a relationship with a girl is the very first thing that happens and getting out again is all sorts of painful no matter what you do. and that's not even the worst of it. and yet the game seems fairly popular anyway. it will forever boggle my mind. I haven't seen anything that really makes that impossible. Again - people could accept Kayto loving Chigara as part of the plot; he was already close enough to her from the events of MoA to make that believable. What made people put on the breaks was that there was no choice to express that love as that between brother-sister instead of lover - that there was no option otherwise. The thing is... that's a pretty blatant non-answer. You can't really justify it with an example you do not have - especially since that could be seen as degrading Chigara to "plot-required screw". And herein lies the rub - I NEVER said to remove the option for a sexual relationship with Chigara; only that there be an option to choose one or the other. Especially since there, quite honestly, is nothing that actually did require it to be a sexual relationship instead of non-sexual - and choosing the other option wouldn't affect anything; it wouldn't impact that Chigara loves Kayto, it wouldn't impact that Kayto came to cherish Chigara as an emotional support and love her as family and it wouldn't impact how that bond was what broke Chigara free of Alice. It basically only requires there be A deep, loving relationship between Kayto and Chigara - not that it needed to be sexual or non-sexual or that the option to make that distinction would have changed anything. And one of the only ways you could even imply otherwise is there's some sort of destiny-baby that's supposed to be born from it (though that would degrade Chigara even more). Likewise, you tried to argue "if it lead to the same conclusion, there would be no point to the choice and people would be angry" - but they weren't with all the other choices in Sunrider that lead to the same conclusion, now were they? Hell, the entire reason I said Mass Effect was a bad example for you to use was because it proves the exact opposite of what you were saying - that committing or abstaining from a romance didn't mean the plot had to change and that nobody would be angry about that (all choices result in the same general narrative between the three games - and nobody cared... at least until the final ending of ME3). By all accounts, it's the same exact path and the same elements - they're just expressed slightly different; enough to give the player the "illusion of choice". And you know what - yes, School Days IS in fact a better example because you at least are given the "illusion of choice"; Main Character arguably loves both love-interests but he chooses how that love is expressed, and even if the results range from "cornball" to "Horror-show" to "WTF", it still portrays it as though you're able to alter how the MC sees the waifus - you don't ever really FEEL locked in even when you are. I'm not saying you follow the stories they used - just that you keep in mind that agency, even if just cosmetic in an unchanging/locked-in narrative, can make all the difference for if a player enjoys the VN/story. You could have had Chigara's relationship with Kayto be optional as sexual or non-sexual and it really wouldn't have changed anything besides HOW their bond of love was expressed between the two. P.S. - In retrospect, it's ironic you find School Day's system so baffling considering you're practically advocating the same for LibDay. Hell, with how it ends (either Kayto regards it as a heat-of-the-moment lapse for lust and want of companionship (possibly rebounding off his rejection from Ava, though that's just my two cents) and decides the whole thing with Chigara, with all the talk of bakeries and kids, was a big mistake and moves on to some other girl - or he regards it as genuine and keeps pursuing it), one could say the romance in LibDay was "School Days: Gundam Edition" and not be entirely off the mark. (Yeah, I'm being mean - blowing off steam, so to speak  ). |
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Post by fay on Mar 12, 2016 19:13:26 GMT -8
I remember following Sunrider's devblog in early 2013; the game was verrrry much pitched as a dating sim then. I think the character profile page even said something like "which one will you choose?" haha. That's why I was confused at the lack of romance options in the series so far. I think it would have helped if the team had made it clear that there wouldn't be branching routes for each girl before the game's release. Even last year, when people asked if Liberation Day would have multiple routes, Sam was just sorta like "idk". Just seems like a weird communication booboo to me. |
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Post by Somasam on Mar 13, 2016 0:16:31 GMT -8
I suppose the original question posed by the OP has been answered.
No, there was no choice for which waifu route you can take in Sunrider Liberation Day, as this is game is still pretty much apart of the common route as the last two games were.
But due to the ending, and the subsequent update to V2.0; it seems readily apparent that the decision still has not been made, that all choices are still valid, and that the choice will still be able to be made in the future.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 13, 2016 1:51:48 GMT -8
Likewise, I'm stating the opinion shared by a lot of the people who bought it - out of the current story-content, forced romance was a problem that matched the severity of the issues people had with the ending. Hell, I think one other poster here said it was actually a BIGGER issue then the ending was. There's no one arguing on you on this; an important part of the fanbase does indeed have that opinion. However, what you can't do is simply tell all the people that don't agree with that "you are missing my point" or "you are contradicting yourself". In all cases, having arguments over this is useless until we have all the parts and then we can argue if it was done well or not. If you want to press Samu-kun to take your choice then a poll or another thread is the way, not continuing here. Oh, and Alternative had the MC have a forced relationship with a girl despite having all the memories of having relationships with basically every other girl (and he also had the memories of Extra, where Sumika had been). I don't see how it's simply not relevant; even if the others didn't remember, he clearly did. Samu-kun has gone out of his way more than once to state that Alternative was a very big influence too. |
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Post by KnightOfXentar on Mar 13, 2016 2:18:03 GMT -8
I never said it had to affect the story. And even Kinetic Novels give the illusion of choice - loving someone no matter what choice you make can be received more positively if you can decide how that love is shown. it can't be received positively, if you are teased with 8 different waifu from the start. It's a whole sub-branch from Visual Novels. Kinetic Novels, where you have little to no choice/choices that do not impact the story path. There are quite a few of these now, they're growing in popularity. Sunrider didnt go down that route. One of its good/selling points were those decisions that decided how you treated certain situations. What I see being repeated very often is that a non-sexual relationship with Chigara could've worked just as well for the plot as though this is fact. I do not agree, but this is a point I can see people having valid conflicting opinions over. however, that's only taking the plot into account to the point it is publicly known thus far. Depending on how future events end up being shaped by the events in all of Sunrider (all 3 parts that is) it may end up obvious to all that a non-sexual relationship wouldn't have worked and major future events would likely have to follow a drastically different path had things gone differently. a path that may not even be interesting to explore, let alone economical to produce. It's too early to tell, but if things head in the direction I expect this seems likely to me. again though, a lively discussion on the bigger picture seems pointless at this moment. that said though, the ire this 'issue' raises baffles me. if just this bothers you for the love of god never play school days. that game delights in fucking with the player and making a mockery of what the player chooses. getting railroaded into a relationship with a girl is the very first thing that happens and getting out again is all sorts of painful no matter what you do. and that's not even the worst of it. and yet the game seems fairly popular anyway. it will forever boggle my mind. I cant think of any reason that would justify that bro/sis one time screw... ...unless they would have a child that will conquer universe, lol. But that sounds stupid. also Fay mostly answered to this issue I remember following Sunrider's devblog in early 2013; the game was verrrry much pitched as a dating sim then. I think the character profile page even said something like "which one will you choose?" haha. That's why I was confused at the lack of romance options in the series so far. I think it would have helped if the team had made it clear that there wouldn't be branching routes for each girl before the game's release. Even last year, when people asked if Liberation Day would have multiple routes, Sam was just sorta like "idk". Just seems like a weird communication booboo to me. ... You know that MuvLuv Alternative, constantly rated as the best translated VN was precisely a series that had spanned already 2 long (30+ hours or more) games with different routes that ended with a final ending in which you couldn't choose the love interest? Here it's not even final. The illusion of choice, at least in terms of romantic pairings, has never been a worry of kinetic VNs. Mostly because most kinetic VNs rely on making their characters whole, in the sense that "choice" itself doesn't make sense because that character "isn't you". A lot of not kinetic VNs actually present illusion of choice through things very different than romantic partners (like Fate), and then there's Princess Waltz, which like was before stated is basically identical to Liberation Day in that issue. Again, I'm not even talking about my opinion, but about facts of a genre that's been a clear inspiration to Samu-kun (Muvluv in particular is one of its big influences). TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE COMPARISON. MuvLuv Alternative's story revolves around TIME LOOP and ALTERNATIVE REALITIES! Long story short: if you lived your life 100 times would you always end with apple? Or would you want to try different approach and eat pears or oranges as well? duh |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 13, 2016 2:51:50 GMT -8
TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE COMPARISON. MuvLuv Alternative's story revolves around TIME LOOP and ALTERNATIVE REALITIES! Long story short: if you lived your life 100 times would you always end with apple? Or would you want to try different approach and eat pears or oranges as well? duh Dude... we're talking about love, not about dinner. I should be the one saying "duh". If you really think that you should have gone with another girl, then it's no longer matter about simply reliving your life and taking another girl, is that you probably should break up and go with another girl. You're clearly not in love with your current one. Live is not a "one-use love"; what you argue about time-loops you can simply change for periods of time and it's the same. Which is the difference between 1 loop of one year and 1 year if you conserve your memories? Time loops or alternative realities have nothing to do with it, they are simply cozier because they avoid the ugly parts, but the core matter is the same; you have memories of being with a lot of different girls and even being in love with them, but later chose another because you're more in love with this one. It's as simple as that. I can understand finding it awkward, or problematic, or whatever, but it has been done and it has been done well. And for now we don't know if Sunrider will do it well or horribly or simply meh because it still hasn't finished. |
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Post by KnightOfXentar on Mar 13, 2016 3:00:27 GMT -8
TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE COMPARISON. MuvLuv Alternative's story revolves around TIME LOOP and ALTERNATIVE REALITIES! Long story short: if you lived your life 100 times would you always end with apple? Or would you want to try different approach and eat pears or oranges as well? duh Dude... we're talking about love, not about dinner. I should be the one saying "duh". If you really think that you should have gone with another girl, then it's no longer matter about simply reliving your life and taking another girl, is that you probably should break up and go with another girl. You're clearly not in love with your current one. Live is not a "one-use love"; what you argue about time-loops you can simply change for periods of time and it's the same. Which is the difference between 1 loop of one year and 1 year if you conserve your memories? Time loops or alternative realities have nothing to do with it, they are simply cozier because they avoid the ugly parts, but the core matter is the same; you have memories of being with a lot of different girls and even being in love with them, but later chose another because you're more in love with this one. It's as simple as that. as far as I remember, in certain timelines/realities some girls were NOT even alive. So it's entirely different story and still BAD comparison. but you are right, that comparison with apples and oranges was a bad metaphor on my part. |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 13, 2016 3:07:51 GMT -8
But I'm talking about Alternative, not Unlimited. There, Takeru has all the choices and memories of both Unlimited and Extra. Unless you're arguing about choosing Sumika only for plot relevance (which would open a can of worms and I don't really want to go that way), what Takeru does is ignore all his previous memories (including the one of choosing Meiya in Extra) and loves to make a new choice. Yeah, it's cozier because it's an alternative reality, but not only is his final loop, he also has all his memories. It's not about "choosing something different", but about "true love" (taking the motto of the game).
Now, that's not to say I don't have problems with that (I have), but it has been done, it was a tremendous success and I could understand Sunrider trying to go for something similar and integrating multiple loves in one play.
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Post by KnightOfXentar on Mar 13, 2016 3:41:04 GMT -8
But I'm talking about Alternative, not Unlimited. There, Takeru has all the choices and memories of both Unlimited and Extra. Unless you're arguing about choosing Sumika only for plot relevance (which would open a can of worms and I don't really want to go that way), what Takeru does is ignore all his previous memories (including the one of choosing Meiya in Extra) and loves to make a new choice. Yeah, it's cozier because it's an alternative reality, but not only is his final loop, he also has all his memories. It's not about "choosing something different", but about "true love" (taking the motto of the game). Now, that's not to say I don't have problems with that (I have), but it has been done, it was a tremendous success and I could understand Sunrider trying to go for something similar and integrating multiple loves in one play. Seriously?? You wanna argue about obvious? You know that those alternative realities were different than his original timeline, right? How do you want him to act in same way as in original timeline, when situations are different? The biggest concern is issue of not encountering same girls (some of them were not alive in certain timelines). Another issue is the problem that those characters dont act same way in alternative reality and therefore they are not same person. If you wanna judge EVERY SINGLE alternative reality only based on your memories from your first timeline, then you are asking for nasty surprise. I think you should watch/play some series and games that focus on the problem of time travel, time loop and alternative realities. You lack necessary knowledge. (start with something easy, like movie Butterfly Effect)anyway, MuvLuv with alternative realities is much different than Sunrider. Its not a good comparison. MuvLuv aside: dont get me wrong, I am not saying that multiple sexual/romance encounters are bad. But it has to be done in right tone. Not the serious stuff in Liberation Day with shouting and screaming and at the end with serious confession "I just tried to be happy" or whatever he said to Asaga. Can you imagine similarly serious romance with each character?? Falling so easily in love will make Kayto look cheap (if it was a girl, we would be talking about her being a slut) |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 13, 2016 4:15:00 GMT -8
Seriously?? You wanna argue about obvious? You know that those alternative realities were different than his original timeline, right? How do you want him to act in same way as in original timeline, when situations are different? The biggest concern is issue of not encountering same girls (some of them were not alive in certain timelines). Another issue is the problem that those characters dont act same way in alternative reality and therefore they are not same person. If you wanna judge EVERY SINGLE alternative reality only based on your memories from your first timeline, then you are asking for nasty surprise. I think you should watch/play some series and games that focus on the problem of time travel, time loop and alternative realities. You lack necessary knowledge. (start with something easy, like movie Butterfly Effect)anyway, MuvLuv with alternative realities is much different than Sunrider. Its not a good comparison. MuvLuv aside: dont get me wrong, I am not saying that multiple sexual/romance encounters are bad. But it has to be done in right tone. Not the serious stuff in Liberation Day with shouting and screaming and at the end with serious confession "I just tried to be happy" or whatever he said to Asaga. Can you imagine similarly serious romance with each character?? Falling so easily in love will make Kayto look cheap (if it was a girl, we would be talking about her being a slut) ... I just want to say, it's really rude to presume "I lack the necessary knowledge" just because I disagree with you. I think I've actually read far more about alternative realities and time travel than you think. And addressing how "different" the people on the alternative realities really are is a plot point of Alternative and Unlimited, so I'm not going to comment any more (hint: Casualty Conductor effects), specially when it's Takeru himself that identifies Alternative's Sumika with the one in Extra despite the other begging for him to not do it (and says his famous line "no matter which reality, I will always fall in love with Sumika"). I even went out of my way to tell you it's not even my own opinion, bur rather how the game presents it. And yeah, on your last paragraph, I completely disagree. It's extremely normal for people to fall horribly in love and plan their live for the next 20 years, then break up in the following 3 months and begin the cycle once again. And I think that calling women like that as slut is probably one of the biggest problems of this current society. I think neither of us want to really follow up on this, so let's just be said we disagree. |
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Post by KnightOfXentar on Mar 13, 2016 5:38:40 GMT -8
... I just want to say, it's really rude to presume "I lack the necessary knowledge" just because I disagree with you. I think I've actually read far more about alternative realities and time travel than you think. And addressing how "different" the people on the alternative realities really are is a plot point of Alternative and Unlimited, so I'm not going to comment any more (hint: Casualty Conductor effects), specially when it's Takeru himself that identifies Alternative's Sumika with the one in Extra despite the other begging for him to not do it (and says his famous line "no matter which reality, I will always fall in love with Sumika"). I even went out of my way to tell you it's not even my own opinion, bur rather how the game presents it. And yeah, on your last paragraph, I completely disagree. It's extremely normal for people to fall horribly in love and plan their live for the next 20 years, then break up in the following 3 months and begin the cycle once again. And I think that calling women like that as slut is probably one of the biggest problems of this current society. I think neither of us want to really follow up on this, so let's just be said we disagree. Yes, let's agree, that you are wrong. It's entirely different matter if you live your life multiple times and each alternative reality is different, than just living one life while changing girls like socks. Period. and don't try to bring in the discussion about politically correct topics like "society is prejudiced against easy girls". First of all: it's not a real problem (People like easy girls, you know what to expect from them, wink) . Second: nobody cares. |
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Post by saibotlieh on Mar 13, 2016 8:09:25 GMT -8
I have spend some time creating a modification of the story to see if the story works without hooking up Chigara and Kayto, and from my point of view it does. I have uploaded the mod here if somebody is interested in it: www.gamefront.com/files/25549939/Mod_SL_CF.zip(Somebody know how to add files to a post here by the way?) It is a rather rough modification and I mainly removed stuff, but also and added smaller sections. Some parts still look a bit "too intimate", but there is only so much I can do without being able to alter the material given. I made sure to not add any new lines that would need voice over, but the modified sections are silent anyhow since I did not get the voices to work for me. To use the mod the unzipped Mod_SL_CF.rpy file needs to be in the "game" folder of Sunrider Liberation Day. To play only the modified sections open the renpy console in any loaded game with "shift+o" and type in "jump Mod_SL_CF". Anyhow, I don't think the main question here is if the Chigara-Kayto romance is necessary for Liberation Day to work, but if it is necessary for the bigger picture as a whole. I don't think it is much of a difference for most of the girls. Ava's distrust in Chigara comes from her emotional involvement with Kayto due to their past, Asaga's mainly from subconsciously noticing the danger Chigara represents due to being a prototype. In this aspect, I don't think it makes much of a difference for them in the future if Chigara and Kayto really hooked up or not, the main question rather is if they on their own overcame the distrust (Ava) or not (Asaga). Chigara's future character development will of course be more influenced by the romance. However, it is already hinted that her character might undergo quite some changes while being together with Alice in the mind stream, so, for example going down the yandere route could be explained in one way or the other. If the girls see Kayto as "damaged goods" due to the romance might be a topic, but I don't really think so. Now, to Kayto: Marx-93 makes some good points about how the events of the past chapters make Kayto pursue the romance, even if it borders self-destruction at this critical point in time. In LD, he not only fails to confine the growing turmoil within his crew, he actively adds to it by his actions. This guilt should certainly leave a big dent in his armor and change his character for the future. Also, his romance that ended in such tragedy could and should influence the romance the player (hopefully) can choose one day. In the end, going the route as it is in LD makes Kayto a much more diverse character, if we like him this way or not. Without the hook-up he stays to be somebody who basically does everything right. He is then right in trusting Chigara without being biased due to being romantically involved with her, which also makes Ava's and Asaga's jealously "more wrong". He could have been more cautious and worked more against the mistrust in his crew, but in the end the events in the final chapter are caused by Alice, not by him. Altogether he appears to be much less broken due to the past events and should also be so in the future. So in the end it boils down to how we like to see Kayto and how we feel about him. A problem I had was that till the end of MoA, I had the feeling I was playing as Kayto and, within the given boundaries, was able to make his choices. However, in LD this impression was quickly lost and I had to watch him doing things I did not like him to do. While I think that this is rather because of the change to the underlying concept of the game, one could also interpret it as the experience surely many of us went through at least once where we do things we know we shouldn't do and in fact like to act differently, but we do them anyway. Anyhow, bottom line is I liked the experience of MoA better, but I guess only future installments of Sunrider will tell if this romance and how it played out was necessary or not. For me, it was not necessary for LD to work, but again, I will have to wait for the big picture to reveal itself. |
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fay
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Post by fay on Mar 13, 2016 8:25:12 GMT -8
No, there was no choice for which waifu route you can take in Sunrider Liberation Day, as this is game is still pretty much apart of the common route as the last two games were. This is a good way to think about it! Personally, I think that three titles released across three years (if you count First Arrival and Mask as separate) is a little long for a Common Route, but massively long Common Routes are du jour these days-- see Rewrite, or Hoshizora. But then, Sunrider already seems to be shaking things up, flipping the general assumption that "common routes are for establishing characters, the character routes are where the plot happens" on its head. That's interesting to me. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 13, 2016 12:05:10 GMT -8
Likewise, I'm stating the opinion shared by a lot of the people who bought it - out of the current story-content, forced romance was a problem that matched the severity of the issues people had with the ending. Hell, I think one other poster here said it was actually a BIGGER issue then the ending was. There's no one arguing on you on this; an important part of the fanbase does indeed have that opinion. However, what you can't do is simply tell all the people that don't agree with that "you are missing my point" or "you are contradicting yourself". In all cases, having arguments over this is useless until we have all the parts and then we can argue if it was done well or not. If you want to press Samu-kun to take your choice then a poll or another thread is the way, not continuing here. Oh, and Alternative had the MC have a forced relationship with a girl despite having all the memories of having relationships with basically every other girl (and he also had the memories of Extra, where Sumika had been). I don't see how it's simply not relevant; even if the others didn't remember, he clearly did. Samu-kun has gone out of his way more than once to state that Alternative was a very big influence too. I direct you to the title of this thread - it seems like it fits here. Also, I should point out that you're also guilty of making a "missing my point" declaration, too. And having all the parts isn't the way to solve the debate - hindsight is 20/20, and waiting till then to talk about it precludes the entire point of community feedback; helping the game WHILE it is in development. Again, I still don't get why you're still trying to argue that when that game had the advantage of multiple alternate realities and timelines, all of which shaped him in ways that are really, really different from Sunrider. Again, it wasn't the model that the game was made popular by - it was the story. And LibDay's just doesn't match well enough to make that comparison feel fair, let alone right. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 14, 2016 21:54:55 GMT -8
No, there was no choice for which waifu route you can take in Sunrider Liberation Day, as this is game is still pretty much apart of the common route as the last two games were. This is a good way to think about it! Personally, I think that three titles released across three years (if you count First Arrival and Mask as separate) is a little long for a Common Route, but massively long Common Routes are du jour these days-- see Rewrite, or Hoshizora. But then, Sunrider already seems to be shaking things up, flipping the general assumption that "common routes are for establishing characters, the character routes are where the plot happens" on its head. That's interesting to me. The thing about common routes in a VN, though... is that they typically share development among all characters before they put you with one. They don't force you down one set path with a single girl like that. Or, if they do force a romance, then - like in Princess Waltz - they make sure that it happens EARLY so that, when you eventually reach the choices, enough time has passed since the end of said romance to justify you starting on a new path. This tactic might actually have been better received if Sunrider STARTED with Kayto in a romance that fell apart as the series progressed - you know, instead of sticking it right in the middle well after the player was given agency in what kind of person Kayto was. Ultimately, taking an "interesting" turn means squat if you don't execute it right - and LibDay simply didn't. And before anyone says I just don't like that there's no choice... that's just half of it, and I'ma going to need to go on a tangent to explain the rest; Truth be told, it's not even like I think Kayto being with Chigara makes no sense - yes it was rushed and "railroaded" and having no choice rubbed people the wrong way, but it didn't feel at all contrived to me that they'd hook up.
The way I personally see it, Kayto - regardless of "Prince" or "Moralist" mindsets - is someone who's gradually come to deeply fear being judged by others. Both share the same fear for different reasons - one fears he's sacrificing victory for his friends, the other fears he's sacrificing his friends for victory, and at some point they come to fear their own defining traits; the "Moralist" starts to fear his idealism and the "Prince" starts to fear his pragmatism. He fears someone - especially someone close to him like Ava, or someone comparable to him like Fontana - is going to judge his actions and expose something about himself he doesn't want to face; he doesn't know if his choices have or haven't made him a monster and he's scared that if he lets someone get that close to him, they're going to prove those fears true.
This is a paranoia that Chigara mitigated because she was willing to openly accept him for all he'd done with the forgiveness of a saint - I mean, who in that position wouldn’t find that appealing? Who wouldn’t get so absorbed in such an unnaturally-accepting person amid such a stressful time that it would simulate love? Gundam SEED did it in how, before he basically ended up with Lacus Clyne, the protagonist Kira Yamato fell in with Flay Alistar because he was lost and insecure himself and she came across as a saint who'd accept and forgive him of everything he found fault in himself for (though Flay was Yandere and faking it to manipulate him while Chigara was actually genuine), so I know it can work. Especially with someone who found himself questioning whether or not his humanity was slipping at every turn - I see arguments about games with moral choices arguing “this is what a human being would do” or “no human would advocate this”, but the truth is that a normal human really wouldn’t be able to make EITHER choice. A normal human isn’t trained to deal with such choices, let alone the repercussions of them - even those who ARE trained often aren’t prepared for it.
(Both versions of) Kayto wanting some kind of assurance that he’s still a human - that he’s still GOING to be human at the end of the war - was probably a big contributor into why he was willing to accept Chigara’s affections so readily; it was a convenient lie/fantasy for him to escape into. And in the end it makes him an unwitting asshole because, even if there is the chance to have Kayto decide it became real at some point, he still would have basically STARTED it out of wanting a comfort tool/rebound instead of actual, unconditional love. It’s even crueler if he comes to see the whole relationship as a mistake, lets it go and eventually ends up with someone else, which would pretty much be the perfect trigger to shatter whatever's left of the once-innocent Chigara between Alice and Lynn’s influences and make her into a full Yandere. Likewise, it would force Kayto to wonder whether, if in his need to feel he was still human, he might have only proved himself less then one?
Like vaen said, making a compromise - even one as mild as the choice to just not have sex with her - might have made being on a forced romance more tolerable because there would be some agency in how fast Kayto takes things. If vaen and Samu-Kun REALLY just want to railroad it that badly that they wouldn't do anything else, they need to at least give some degree of control in how far it goes - because honestly speaking, I think that had Chigara and Kayto's development been longer and LibDay in general had a longer arc to develop things, it wouldn't have felt so forced to begin with. Like say, hold off on Kayto and Chigara even having a first kiss until after a chapter-arc, then have them kiss a few more times right before and during the Cera invasion. Then, when the option for sex comes up, either choose to have it then or don't - Kayto can say he wants to wait until the war's over or, if you wanna add some corniness, have him say he wants her to have something to come back to. Either way it'll be clear what he thinks of her without changing much. Granted, unless they intend to DLC a new arc for mid-game, it's probably too late to do much else except make the sex-scene optional, but even that would probably soothe over any lingering complaints, because I STILL see people complaining about it on Steam. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 14, 2016 22:09:09 GMT -8
Without the hook-up he stays to be somebody who basically does everything right. He is then right in trusting Chigara without being biased due to being romantically involved with her, which also makes Ava's and Asaga's jealously "more wrong". He could have been more cautious and worked more against the mistrust in his crew, but in the end the events in the final chapter are caused by Alice, not by him. Altogether he appears to be much less broken due to the past events and should also be so in the future. So in the end it boils down to how we like to see Kayto and how we feel about him. A problem I had was that till the end of MoA, I had the feeling I was playing as Kayto and, within the given boundaries, was able to make his choices. However, in LD this impression was quickly lost and I had to watch him doing things I did not like him to do. While I think that this is rather because of the change to the underlying concept of the game, one could also interpret it as the experience surely many of us went through at least once where we do things we know we shouldn't do and in fact like to act differently, but we do them anyway. Anyhow, bottom line is I liked the experience of MoA better, but I guess only future installments of Sunrider will tell if this romance and how it played out was necessary or not. For me, it was not necessary for LD to work, but again, I will have to wait for the big picture to reveal itself. I think he'd be biased either way simply because he may become attached to Chigara as "the one person who won't ever judge him". Hell, I'm not even sure he has to be romantically involved with her to be biased towards her - you could make it brother/sister or close family, kinda like what your mod's done. Or, if you REALLY wanted to keep the romance vibe yet still try to solve the complaints, just have it so that Kayto can choose to hold back on committing fully to a romance - that they are in fact an item but Kayto just doesn't outright compound it/make it sexual yet for whatever reason, even if he does in fact want to at some point (he wants to wait till after the war to confess, he wants to take it "slow and right", he wants give them both something to come back to, he doesn't want to pressure Chigara, he doesn't want to commit fully until he's sure they're both still going to even be alive tomorrow, ect). The crazy thing is that it might have worked better had LibDay simply been LONGER and had more story to evolve it over. Had there been more time to develop things and better pacing - like an entire chapter/arc before they even had a first kiss, or that they don't start talking about raising kids until AFTER the Cera liberation actually "happens" and Chigara living there seems an imminent reality - it might have worked better. A "railroad romance" isn't usually regarded well when it comes to VN's, but there are times when it can actually be well-accepted - it just requires the romance not feel forced. |
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Post by saibotlieh on Mar 15, 2016 12:26:15 GMT -8
I think he'd be biased either way simply because he may become attached to Chigara as "the one person who won't ever judge him". Hell, I'm not even sure he has to be romantically involved with her to be biased towards her - you could make it brother/sister or close family, kinda like what your mod's done. Or, if you REALLY wanted to keep the romance vibe yet still try to solve the complaints, just have it so that Kayto can choose to hold back on committing fully to a romance - that they are in fact an item but Kayto just doesn't outright compound it/make it sexual yet for whatever reason, even if he does in fact want to at some point (he wants to wait till after the war to confess, he wants to take it "slow and right", he wants give them both something to come back to, he doesn't want to pressure Chigara, he doesn't want to commit fully until he's sure they're both still going to even be alive tomorrow, ect). The crazy thing is that it might have worked better had LibDay simply been LONGER and had more story to evolve it over. Had there been more time to develop things and better pacing - like an entire chapter/arc before they even had a first kiss, or that they don't start talking about raising kids until AFTER the Cera liberation actually "happens" and Chigara living there seems an imminent reality - it might have worked better. A "railroad romance" isn't usually regarded well when it comes to VN's, but there are times when it can actually be well-accepted - it just requires the romance not feel forced. I agree, a bit more time to evolve the relationship would have been good, which in the end is true as well for practical the whole rest of the story. Everything felt a bit cramped together, too much was happening at the same time and escalating too quickly. A smaller campaign or two before the Liberation Battle of Cera giving time for a smoother build-up would have worked much better I think. |
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