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Post by admiralcheese on Mar 14, 2016 21:56:15 GMT -8
I also expect some kind of deus ex machina to bring 'old' Chigara back and rekindle their relationship, (in a route) should the player choose her over everyone else. I would seriously go on strike in protest. Sign me up. Yandere Chigara is far more interesting. Hell I see her route as making it so the being that comes out of the hive mind fight ends up more Chigara than Alice. And if she isn't pursued she comes out more Alice. For LOLDrama and a legit tragic reason to put down a character. |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 15, 2016 0:51:12 GMT -8
I don't know, I feel the kind of assholes that have been assholes without fully realizing it are precisely the ones with most development, because they can realize those mistakes and try to not make them again.
And the fact, that, well, love is kinda assholish. You love someone? Most of the times it can have 0 relation with how good has someone been to you or if it's deserved or whatever. And sometimes it can go just as quickly as people change (and it's clear that the Captain at the end of Lib Day has changed, even withholding Chigara's change).
Keeping someone as a friend that you know loves you but can't renounce to it because you need its comfort is in my eyes worse than making a mistake and seeking comfort through love but later realizing you were wrong. In the second case you can try to make amends and ask for forgiveness, but now you're being honest. In the first you're lying to yourself and her for what can be years.
So I see making this kind of mistake as certainly the most dramatic, but also the one with brighter prospects for both the future and character development.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 15, 2016 2:12:41 GMT -8
I don't know, I feel the kind of assholes that have been assholes without fully realizing it are precisely the ones with most development, because they can realize those mistakes and try to not make them again. And the fact, that, well, love is kinda assholish. You love someone? Most of the times it can have 0 relation with how good has someone been to you or if it's deserved or whatever. And sometimes it can go just as quickly as people change (and it's clear that the Captain at the end of Lib Day has changed, even withholding Chigara's change). Keeping someone as a friend that you know loves you but can't renounce to it because you need its comfort is in my eyes worse than making a mistake and seeking comfort through love but later realizing you were wrong. In the second case you can try to make amends and ask for forgiveness, but now you're being honest. In the first you're lying to yourself and her for what can be years. So I see making this kind of mistake as certainly the most dramatic, but also the one with brighter prospects for both the future and character development. At the same time, you can argue the opposite; seeking that love but later realizing you're wrong can not only be equally as bad but even kinda crueler - you're taking someone's dreams, pure hopes and even their innocence as a woman just to satisfy your own need for comfort, and by the time you realize it you've arguably done more damage then if you'd just kept her at arm's length. You can give back a lot of things - a girl's first time isn't one of them, though. How exactly IS that any better? In my eyes... it's not. Like you said, love does often entail the kind of selfishness that makes one an asshole in someone else's eyes, and that doesn't really lessen just because a different path got taken. In BOTH cases you're somewhat lying to yourself, as well as causing damage that can last for years. Both cases have chances for making amends and asking forgiveness (sorry I did that to you/sorry I didn't try to make it work) and neither really require you lie longer then the other - the difference between feeling "maybe there could have been something and I'm sorry I didn't try" and "it was a hurtful mistake and I shouldn't have done it"; regret for what you did do or regret for not trying, it's still regret. Neither is really easier to try and make amends to - and both imply a significant hurdle to try and overcome in regards to trusting anyone else. |
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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 15, 2016 7:43:40 GMT -8
If we go the 'there is only one canon' path with regards to relationships, I hope to see more banter/development amongst the rest of the team (platonically or otherwise). Kryska's already going to help Icari open that cat cafe, we know, but it feels tragic to me that I feel some members of the crew have had no notable interactions with other members.
(Truth be told, I'd hope for this even if we didn't go that route, though; Katawa Shoujo taught me that you figure things out about molecules by watching what they affect, and a relationship is a molecule, right?)
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 16, 2016 3:18:53 GMT -8
At the same time, you can argue the opposite; seeking that love but later realizing you're wrong can not only be equally as bad but even kinda crueler - you're taking someone's dreams, pure hopes and even their innocence as a woman just to satisfy your own need for comfort, and by the time you realize it you've arguably done more damage then if you'd just kept her at arm's length. You can give back a lot of things - a girl's first time isn't one of them, though. How exactly IS that any better? In my eyes... it's not. Like you said, love does often entail the kind of selfishness that makes one an asshole in someone else's eyes, and that doesn't really lessen just because a different path got taken. In BOTH cases you're somewhat lying to yourself, as well as causing damage that can last for years. Both cases have chances for making amends and asking forgiveness (sorry I did that to you/sorry I didn't try to make it work) and neither really require you lie longer then the other - the difference between feeling "maybe there could have been something and I'm sorry I didn't try" and "it was a hurtful mistake and I shouldn't have done it"; regret for what you did do or regret for not trying, it's still regret. Neither is really easier to try and make amends to - and both imply a significant hurdle to try and overcome in regards to trusting anyone else. I don't see it that way. I suppose part of it are personal views; even how you put it I prefer "seeking comfort in love" than the other option by leagues. Mostly because I feel that, while a mistake, in this case I feel that there's a genuine affection, just for the wrong reasons. And while correcting it is painful, the entire process is honest in itself and even respectful; he leaves her because he knows he can't love her like she wants and because doing that while knowing his love is purely for comfort would be taking advantage of her. In the case of "friends in which I know she clearly has a crush on me" i see it as taking advantage from moment 0: If Shields comes ahead and says "I don't love you, sorry" and then she want to keep insisting, well, I see it a lot better. But in the case he just strings her along then he clearly is being false and disrespectful to her dear friend (which is something that happens a lot of times too), specially when she is there only for his convenience. In the former case it's a mistake, but that does not mean the "love" shared was false. Those months/weeks/whatever won't be a lie; now, continuing that relationship would be a lie. And well, how does crushing a woman's dream count as a problem when you will be doing it anyway (because having her as a friend but not saying anything is not keeping her hopes up, sure)? Love is kinda assholish, but that goes both ways too; simply not having a relationship does not mean the same doesn't apply. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 16, 2016 8:55:30 GMT -8
At the same time, you can argue the opposite; seeking that love but later realizing you're wrong can not only be equally as bad but even kinda crueler - you're taking someone's dreams, pure hopes and even their innocence as a woman just to satisfy your own need for comfort, and by the time you realize it you've arguably done more damage then if you'd just kept her at arm's length. You can give back a lot of things - a girl's first time isn't one of them, though. How exactly IS that any better? In my eyes... it's not. Like you said, love does often entail the kind of selfishness that makes one an asshole in someone else's eyes, and that doesn't really lessen just because a different path got taken. In BOTH cases you're somewhat lying to yourself, as well as causing damage that can last for years. Both cases have chances for making amends and asking forgiveness (sorry I did that to you/sorry I didn't try to make it work) and neither really require you lie longer then the other - the difference between feeling "maybe there could have been something and I'm sorry I didn't try" and "it was a hurtful mistake and I shouldn't have done it"; regret for what you did do or regret for not trying, it's still regret. Neither is really easier to try and make amends to - and both imply a significant hurdle to try and overcome in regards to trusting anyone else. I don't see it that way. I suppose part of it are personal views; even how you put it I prefer "seeking comfort in love" than the other option by leagues. Mostly because I feel that, while a mistake, in this case I feel that there's a genuine affection, just for the wrong reasons. And while correcting it is painful, the entire process is honest in itself and even respectful; he leaves her because he knows he can't love her like she wants and because doing that while knowing his love is purely for comfort would be taking advantage of her. In the case of "friends in which I know she clearly has a crush on me" i see it as taking advantage from moment 0: If Shields comes ahead and says "I don't love you, sorry" and then she want to keep insisting, well, I see it a lot better. But in the case he just strings her along then he clearly is being false and disrespectful to her dear friend (which is something that happens a lot of times too), specially when she is there only for his convenience. In the former case it's a mistake, but that does not mean the "love" shared was false. Those months/weeks/whatever won't be a lie; now, continuing that relationship would be a lie. And well, how does crushing a woman's dream count as a problem when you will be doing it anyway (because having her as a friend but not saying anything is not keeping her hopes up, sure)? Love is kinda assholish, but that goes both ways too; simply not having a relationship does not mean the same doesn't apply. See, the issue is that this is the same as saying it IS okay to lie to oneself and use or even abuse someone's feelings to you, no different then the other option. There's no more or less genuine affection (even if not sexually expressed) for any less wrong a reason (replacement sister vs replacement lover). He's no less taking advantage of her, correcting it doesn't require any more or less honesty then the other (stating he can't ever return her feelings before the fact isn't any less painful then saying so after the fact, though in the former you at least have not strung her along and taken her innocence on a pretense that was false even for yourself). He is being false and disrespectful to her either way - and in both cases he's doing it unwittingly because neither one precludes her being there for his convenience.
In BOTH cases, it doesn't mean they don't care about each-other nor require there be false love. Likewise, it means the reverse for your own point too - having the relationship under these circumstances doesn't mean it's going to be less hurtful at the end then if there hadn't been one, and getting her hopes up by directly encouraging something can still be just as bad or worse/is as much stringing her along and ultimately crushing her dreams then if you never let her get close. |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 16, 2016 13:59:29 GMT -8
See, the issue is that this is the same as saying it IS okay to lie to oneself and use or even abuse someone's feelings to you, no different then the other option. There's no more or less genuine affection (even if not sexually expressed) for any less wrong a reason (replacement sister vs replacement lover). He's no less taking advantage of her, correcting it doesn't require any more or less honesty then the other (stating he can't ever return her feelings before the fact isn't any less painful then saying so after the fact, though in the former you at least have not strung her along and taken her innocence on a pretense that was false even for yourself). He is being false and disrespectful to her either way - and in both cases he's doing it unwittingly because neither one precludes her being there for his convenience.
In BOTH cases, it doesn't mean they don't care about each-other nor require there be false love. Likewise, it means the reverse for your own point too - having the relationship under these circumstances doesn't mean it's going to be less hurtful at the end then if there hadn't been one, and getting her hopes up by directly encouraging something can still be just as bad or worse/is as much stringing her along and ultimately crushing her dreams then if you never let her get close. I just simply don't see it that way. Mostly because it's very hard for me to believe that the captain doesn't realize he's taking Chigara as a replacement of his sister, both because lust doesn't cloud his mind and because the role would be way too similar. It also is way easier to keep someone as "little sister" (as it normally requires a lot less responsibility than a girlfriend or wife would take) but also a fairly strange choice of relationship, so I really can't imagine Kayto really doing that without realizing. He has always been shown as very naive respect to love, but not dumb.
And a difference I think you're missing is that chigara doesn't want to be a replacement sister. If she was fine with either, I would agree they would be a lot more similar, but she doesn't want that. Simply being friends with her would hurt her all the time and in the end she would get nothing in both cases. With a romantic relationship, they've at least tried, and then he realized it couldn't work because he loved her for the wrong reasons. That's to me a lot more genuine and respectful that the scenario you're suggesting; the pretense wouldn't be false in any moment, and her innocence would be lost in the same way any girl loses theirs in a first relationship that lasts less than a year.
All in all, however, I think we're derailing the thread on what seems to be a conflict more of ideas and feelings that facts. Feel free to answer, just know that I probably will stop here. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 16, 2016 18:07:04 GMT -8
See, the issue is that this is the same as saying it IS okay to lie to oneself and use or even abuse someone's feelings to you, no different then the other option. There's no more or less genuine affection (even if not sexually expressed) for any less wrong a reason (replacement sister vs replacement lover). He's no less taking advantage of her, correcting it doesn't require any more or less honesty then the other (stating he can't ever return her feelings before the fact isn't any less painful then saying so after the fact, though in the former you at least have not strung her along and taken her innocence on a pretense that was false even for yourself). He is being false and disrespectful to her either way - and in both cases he's doing it unwittingly because neither one precludes her being there for his convenience.
In BOTH cases, it doesn't mean they don't care about each-other nor require there be false love. Likewise, it means the reverse for your own point too - having the relationship under these circumstances doesn't mean it's going to be less hurtful at the end then if there hadn't been one, and getting her hopes up by directly encouraging something can still be just as bad or worse/is as much stringing her along and ultimately crushing her dreams then if you never let her get close. I just simply don't see it that way. Mostly because it's very hard for me to believe that the captain doesn't realize he's taking Chigara as a replacement of his sister, both because lust doesn't cloud his mind and because the role would be way too similar. It also is way easier to keep someone as "little sister" (as it normally requires a lot less responsibility than a girlfriend or wife would take) but also a fairly strange choice of relationship, so I really can't imagine Kayto really doing that without realizing. He has always been shown as very naive respect to love, but not dumb.
And a difference I think you're missing is that chigara doesn't want to be a replacement sister. If she was fine with either, I would agree they would be a lot more similar, but she doesn't want that. Simply being friends with her would hurt her all the time and in the end she would get nothing in both cases. With a romantic relationship, they've at least tried, and then he realized it couldn't work because he loved her for the wrong reasons. That's to me a lot more genuine and respectful that the scenario you're suggesting; the pretense wouldn't be false in any moment, and her innocence would be lost in the same way any girl loses theirs in a first relationship that lasts less than a year.
All in all, however, I think we're derailing the thread on what seems to be a conflict more of ideas and feelings that facts. Feel free to answer, just know that I probably will stop here. The thing is it should be easy to see it that way, since it seems extremely easy for you to believe the captain doesn't/wouldn't realize he's taking Chigara as a replacement of his school-lover Ava and the promise she tried to void. If he wouldn't realize that - if he couldn't realize he was stringing Chigara along for his own comfort in a relationship he'd wanted with someone else - why would he realize it in any other shape or form? And that's not discounting the idea that he just wouldn't want to believe it, which may also have been the case in the romance bit. And considering Chigara is basically the only person he's let himself be unguarded with and that Chigara promised to never share that with anyone else because maintaining his image is important... well, how isn't that any less responsibility then what she'd have as a girlfriend?
And truth be told, this here represents the big issue I had with vaen's beliefs as well; I don't think what Kayto felt about Chigara was EVER about lust - I think it was about a near-physical need to have someone just plain accept him without judgement as "Kayto Shields", instead of "the Captain who made so-and-so choice", which then evolved into a dependence on never losing that one person who'd unconditionally accept him. I don't believe Chigara is so shallow as to expressly require a romantic relationship - even as far back as MoA, she stated the reason she wanted to get close to him was to try and help him with his emotional baggage. So long as she is actually helping him do that, the pretense isn't any more or less false. Nor does it require any dishonesty - it would be no more or less "what it is" then the romance path, and it would hurt just as much all the time to think they started something that was ultimately just his comfort-rebound as it would that they could have had but didn't.
It doesn't feel like you're arguing things that are actually unique to being in a romantic relationship, and a lot of your long-term justifications require not acknowledging the fact that the bond is basically just supposed to last for the duration of LibDay and can pretty much end at it's finale. Maybe, but it doesn't feel like a conflict of ideas and feelings to me. More like it's trying to say one is better or worse then the other out of two equal sides of the same thing. Still, point taken about derailment. |
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Post by knightoblivion on Mar 16, 2016 22:36:48 GMT -8
Well, here's what I want out of the romance. I want Kayto to be SCARRED by it. I want him to have issues trusting anyone getting that close to his heart again. I don't care if the player goes down the route of "She didn't betray us!" vs "She was a traitor!". I want to see Kayto be more distrustful in general to other people, and to attempt to keep the other member's of the crew at arm's length. I want to see the girls attempt to move closer to him and either get pushed away or burned. I want to see the chosen girl not give up even when he does this, but continue to try to support him even when he acts like he doesn't want them to. I'm fine with him being still treating everyone like family or seeing his duty is to protect everyone or whatever. But I feel that being betrayed by Chigara, feeling her die in his arms, and being betrayed by the Alliance, seeing his homeworld nearly wiped from the Galaxy before sacrificing himself to try to save it is all going to have a severe effect on his psyche.
That's what I want and expect to see. I guess I wouldn't be too disappointed if you went more with a change to more free Kayto. Basically, the idea that Cera needed to be protected and he ran when he should not have had lodged in his mind, was generally stressing him out and he was attempting to atone for that the entire MoA and Liberation Day. Now that he doesn't feel that way anymore (sacrificing himself to save Cera and the enforced vacation by the Sunrider's destruction could account for this), he might be MORE willing to open up and talk to the girls. He would be free of the burden that he felt was his duty and feel that he should get to know the rest of the crew better after all their near-death experiences.
I also don't know why you're all tagging everything as Spoilers. Anyone on here who hasn't played Liberation day would be woefully ill-prepared to answer these questions. Maybe update 2.00, but if I was on this forum and hadn't played that yet, I would leave and get right on that.
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Post by Tyrion on Mar 17, 2016 16:17:25 GMT -8
I want Kayto to acknowledge that he had sought out Chigara for the wrong reasons out of stress and hurt. That will be the only way he's not an asshole if he chooses another girl.
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auro
Civilian
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Post by auro on Mar 17, 2016 17:05:55 GMT -8
I mean acknowledging that Kayto made a mistake and went after Chigara for the wrong reasons or something similar is interesting from a narrative and a VN perspective.
Not a whole lot of VN's tackle the issue of having a relationship at a point after one ended for one of the involved parties. So if they handle it well i'm all for it. Relationships and people can be messy and it helps the characters (especially Shields) feel more real.
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Post by admiralcheese on Mar 17, 2016 17:25:38 GMT -8
I mean acknowledging that Kayto made a mistake and went after Chigara for the wrong reasons or something similar is interesting from a narrative and a VN perspective. Not a whole lot of VN's tackle the issue of having a relationship at a point after one ended for one of the involved parties. So if they handle it well i'm all for it. Relationships and people can be messy and it helps the characters (especially Shields) feel more real. Honestly I'm wondering how long it will take Not-Chigara to go full Yandere if Shields moves on. Because that is going to be something Shields and his new waifu *cough Sola *Cough* will have to deal with. |
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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 18, 2016 1:41:03 GMT -8
Chigara's technically already wackadoo. We just don't know if she's the 'if I can't have you no one can' wackadoo or the 'I am really dissatisfied with this and will engage in a zany but mostly harmless plot to get you back' wackadoo. But yeah, Shields and Sola are going to have to deal with that because I suspect that - Shields is going to be discovered by someone else at his hideout first. And if it's Chigara, she's probably going to be a little sour that Sola was making eyes at her man all this time even if Sola doesn't press her romantic interest further than it already goes.
Sola was one of the most powerful waifus in Academy, though, so anything is possible. |
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Post by admiralcheese on Mar 18, 2016 1:49:44 GMT -8
Of course if Sola makes a move or appears to make a move She'll have more than just Yandere Chigara after her.
Poor Asaga. Everyone else always moves before she can.
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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 18, 2016 1:59:13 GMT -8
That's what she gets for taking a low dex score. I know the high Str and Con scores are so she can charge in, but she knew what she was getting into.
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Post by admiralcheese on Mar 18, 2016 2:04:18 GMT -8
That's what she gets for taking a low dex score. I know the high Str and Con scores are so she can charge in, but she knew what she was getting into. Sola better hope Asaga doesn't fail the Willpower check then. They've only got room for one Yandere gunning for Kayto. |
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Post by planguy on Mar 18, 2016 11:13:52 GMT -8
I think railroaded romance was, is and will be a mistake. Ideally this whole Chigara thing would be altered to be optional, but seeing as that is unlikely there should be options on how Kayto thinks about the relationship going forward. Chigara was my one true love, it's a tragedy that it ended as it did. What the hell was I thinking, looking back there was no way I was in love with her. Was I in love with her? What we had was real, but it's over.
Also, Chigara potentially being a yandere doesn't make her interesting. That just seems like set up to make her more plot important when she's already been forced down our throats enough.
Also, also, please no Chigara style forced romance arcs in the future. Plot events should not include romance, that should be up to the player.
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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 18, 2016 16:18:04 GMT -8
I disagree with you on the last point. The very last point. I like Romance being a player choice as much as I like it being not a player choice at all.
I don't like Chigara all that much, though. I saw the writing on the wall in Academy. It wasn't good.
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Post by knightoblivion on Mar 18, 2016 22:45:29 GMT -8
I disagree with you on the last point. The very last point. I like Romance being a player choice as much as I like it being not a player choice at all. I don't like Chigara all that much, though. I saw the writing on the wall in Academy. It wasn't good. Agree with this statement completely. For me, forced romance depends on how much the Protagonist is their own character vs me playing as the Protagonist. If Shields is a strong character who feels distinct and real, I have no problems with him doing this which I personally do not like. Because he's his own man and he can date whoever he wants. As for plot events can not contain romance? That's absurd IMO. People can and have done incredibly stupid but important things because of love and lust. Since this is a VN (with TRPG elements mixed in), if romance DOESN'T play a large part in the major plot points, I'll be pretty damned disappointed. There's also a reason why Chigara's route is my least favorite in Academy. After that crap she pulled with her and her sister, I wouldn't be able to trust either of them ever again. It felt like some sort of horrible, protracted test designed to drive Shields insane for no good reason. I would have high-tailed out of there faster then a cat on fire. |
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Post by vaendryl on Mar 19, 2016 0:35:56 GMT -8
Interesting you say that. I was thinking just earlier that a lot of the hate for the railroad chigara romance is likely because Shields is too much of a player stand-in. Showing him only so rarely and giving him so little personality in his own lines makes it both hard to imagine him falling for Chigara but also makes it feel like it's not Shields but the player who is being forced to have a relationship with a girl they avidly dislike. In nearly any other medium where a forced romance was a critical plot point (required for later events to make sense or even happen at all) the MC had a lot more characterization of his own. In Fate Stay Night for example the entire (fairly lengthy) prologue wasn't even from Emiya's perspective and he was voiced like an NPC! having a canon 'official' relationship for Geralt from The Witcher probably wouldn't raise nearly as many objections either.
personally, I took it as the whole thing revealing that Chigara (as we've come to know her) plainly was never a romanceable choice to begin with. at least as far as the player is concerned. I thought this to be an interesting thing from a meta perspective. there's sure to be a route representing her eventually, but that chigara will definitely be quite a different creature. |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 19, 2016 1:22:21 GMT -8
Part of the problem though is that Sunrider has always sent the player mixed signs about Shields. On one hand, on First Arrival he was more or less mr. Generic Space Captain nº685, ready to be the player's avatar. Now, in MoA he suddenly started gaining a lot of character development and, well, character. I even felt actually that the meta theme of "suppressing his feelings to the point he basically was a generic space captain" was actually fairly good, and could have been exploited even more.
Now, I think Lib Day missed an opportunity by not making Shields voiced. Everything until now was plot, but the moment you're giving a character a voice you're literally giving them a bit more of life and character; it would have been tremendously effective to make people realize that Shields was his own character, and not simply a player avatar.
In general Lib Day also lacked character development, and the love was even of the blandest possible type ("I love you" "you love me? yay! Let's open a bakery and have 3 children and a dog and..." "Will you marry me?" *Marx shots himself*), and the characters lacked chemistry because you basically took what already were the 2 blandest character types and put them together. Heck, the Captain shows more chemistry and personality when he's together with Icari joking about Kryska ("COURT MARTIAL?!") than in the entire of the romance with Chigara...
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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 19, 2016 3:43:22 GMT -8
And now, comrade Marx, you have me thinking about yandere Chigara stalking Kayto in a dark place (or firing around the bridge of his new ship with some super weapon she's stolen) and saying, "if you give up/come out now, maybe we can still have those babies, Kaytooooooooooo!"
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Post by admiralcheese on Mar 19, 2016 3:55:32 GMT -8
And now, comrade Marx, you have me thinking about yandere Chigara stalking Kayto in a dark place (or firing around the bridge of his new ship with some super weapon she's stolen) and saying, "if you give up/come out now, maybe we can still have those babies, Kaytooooooooooo!" This is after she catches the captain having a moment with his new waifu. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 19, 2016 9:49:34 GMT -8
Interesting you say that. I was thinking just earlier that a lot of the hate for the railroad chigara romance is likely because Shields is too much of a player stand-in. Showing him only so rarely and giving him so little personality in his own lines makes it both hard to imagine him falling for Chigara but also makes it feel like it's not Shields but the player who is being forced to have a relationship with a girl they avidly dislike. In nearly any other medium where a forced romance was a critical plot point (required for later events to make sense or even happen at all) the MC had a lot more characterization of his own. In Fate Stay Night for example the entire (fairly lengthy) prologue wasn't even from Emiya's perspective and he was voiced like an NPC! having a canon 'official' relationship for Geralt from The Witcher probably wouldn't raise nearly as many objections either.
personally, I took it as the whole thing revealing that Chigara (as we've come to know her) plainly was never a romanceable choice to begin with. at least as far as the player is concerned. I thought this to be an interesting thing from a meta perspective. there's sure to be a route representing her eventually, but that chigara will definitely be quite a different creature. No offense, vaen... but I feel I have to disagree completely here. I think it's actually more the opposite, in fact - that they felt what happened didn't match what did exist for Shield's character; namely that a captain who has been shown to care for his crew and proactively bond with them would suddenly just become so obsessively focused on one person like Chigara that he'd neglect the rest. It felt far too fast, too contrived and too forced for how little time there was - honestly, the relationship was disliked not just because it felt forced but because it simply didn't feel real. Had it simply been drawn out longer and paced more, you might have done better - in the end, it's a suffering of the game having been too short. Very, VERY bad examples to use, dude - especially since it seems more like a lot of people felt Witcher 'cannon' was Geralt NOT having a committed relationship. Players like choices, but those choices do not instantly mean the player is substituting themselves entirely for the character, and the only time they'll complain is not because they have no choices - it'll be when the 'cannon/forced' choice seems to be in violation of what the character themselves would do. But you know what, vaen? I honestly think that was almost MORE INSULTING to people instead of interesting - it's basically trashing an entire romance option purely "for the plot." Anyone who didn't like Chigara isn't going to like the forced romance, and anyone who DID like Chigara is going to feel put off that this was done to her. And that's probably the REAL biggest reason that people hated the forced romance - not because it was 'cannon/railroaded' but because players probably felt the only reason it was artificially done was "for the plot" instead of actually being a natural evolution of the two's relationship. I've said it before, but either making the extent of the romance optional or even just simply pacing it better (like maybe not talking about things like having kids until, like, after the "final battle"?) would have solved those concerns without ever having had to axe it. Like Marx said, there simply was not anything substantial enough to the romance arc - it felt like trying to down pure saccharine simply because there was no other flavor. |
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Post by planguy on Mar 19, 2016 15:00:10 GMT -8
Interesting you say that. I was thinking just earlier that a lot of the hate for the railroad chigara romance is likely because Shields is too much of a player stand-in. Showing him only so rarely and giving him so little personality in his own lines makes it both hard to imagine him falling for Chigara but also makes it feel like it's not Shields but the player who is being forced to have a relationship with a girl they avidly dislike. In nearly any other medium where a forced romance was a critical plot point (required for later events to make sense or even happen at all) the MC had a lot more characterization of his own. In Fate Stay Night for example the entire (fairly lengthy) prologue wasn't even from Emiya's perspective and he was voiced like an NPC! having a canon 'official' relationship for Geralt from The Witcher probably wouldn't raise nearly as many objections either.
personally, I took it as the whole thing revealing that Chigara (as we've come to know her) plainly was never a romanceable choice to begin with. at least as far as the player is concerned. I thought this to be an interesting thing from a meta perspective. there's sure to be a route representing her eventually, but that chigara will definitely be quite a different creature. Honestly I feel like the game devs just didn't really understand what kind of game their audience was expecting. They seemed to be expecting a game where their choices mattered. They expected a game where they were going to decide who Kayto ends up with. I mean, Commander Shepard didn't get a forced romance and though he is an escapist character he is still a character rather then a pure player cipher. There are people who also like this Chigara. The idea that this Chigara is going to get dropped sucks. |
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Post by vaendryl on Mar 19, 2016 15:31:54 GMT -8
No offense, vaen... but I feel I have to disagree completely here. I think it's actually more the opposite, in fact - that they felt what happened didn't match what did exist for Shield's character; namely that a captain who has been shown to care for his crew and proactively bond with them would suddenly just become so obsessively focused on one person like Chigara that he'd neglect the rest. It felt far too fast, too contrived and too forced for how little time there was - honestly, the relationship was disliked not just because it felt forced but because it simply didn't feel real. Had it simply been drawn out longer and paced more, you might have done better - in the end, it's a suffering of the game having been too short. Very, VERY bad examples to use, dude - especially since it seems more like a lot of people felt Witcher 'cannon' was Geralt NOT having a committed relationship. Players like choices, but those choices do not instantly mean the player is substituting themselves entirely for the character, and the only time they'll complain is not because they have no choices - it'll be when the 'cannon/forced' choice seems to be in violation of what the character themselves would do. But you know what, vaen? I honestly think that was almost MORE INSULTING to people instead of interesting - it's basically trashing an entire romance option purely "for the plot." Anyone who didn't like Chigara isn't going to like the forced romance, and anyone who DID like Chigara is going to feel put off that this was done to her. And that's probably the REAL biggest reason that people hated the forced romance - not because it was 'cannon/railroaded' but because players probably felt the only reason it was artificially done was "for the plot" instead of actually being a natural evolution of the two's relationship. I've said it before, but either making the extent of the romance optional or even just simply pacing it better (like maybe not talking about things like having kids until, like, after the "final battle"?) would have solved those concerns without ever having had to axe it. Like Marx said, there simply was not anything substantial enough to the romance arc - it felt like trying to down pure saccharine simply because there was no other flavor. I get the feeling you think I'm defending the writer's choices from a developer perspective. I'm not. I had nothing to do with the story or any creative decisions. The only thing I ever influenced was the combat. I explicitely chose to keep myself in the dark as much as possible where story is concerend and never even bothered giving Sam any particular feedback on the story or the game's direction as a whole. Writing is not my thing so I leave it to the expert. I too thought we'd have various character routes by this point, but at the same time I don't dislike the current direction either as future possibilities seem more exciting to me than what could have been done now. Maybe I didn't experience it as a punch to the nose like many seem to as for me the realization was more gradual. I understand you have deep rooted issues with how LibDay turned out, but even if we differ in opinion on how horrible this or that aspect of the story is complaining to me isn't really going to do anything - ever. Even if you convinced me and I suddenly hated the narrative direction of the series I'd still feel it's Sam's prerogative to do with this story as he pleases. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 19, 2016 16:02:46 GMT -8
No offense, vaen... but I feel I have to disagree completely here. I think it's actually more the opposite, in fact - that they felt what happened didn't match what did exist for Shield's character; namely that a captain who has been shown to care for his crew and proactively bond with them would suddenly just become so obsessively focused on one person like Chigara that he'd neglect the rest. It felt far too fast, too contrived and too forced for how little time there was - honestly, the relationship was disliked not just because it felt forced but because it simply didn't feel real. Had it simply been drawn out longer and paced more, you might have done better - in the end, it's a suffering of the game having been too short. Very, VERY bad examples to use, dude - especially since it seems more like a lot of people felt Witcher 'cannon' was Geralt NOT having a committed relationship. Players like choices, but those choices do not instantly mean the player is substituting themselves entirely for the character, and the only time they'll complain is not because they have no choices - it'll be when the 'cannon/forced' choice seems to be in violation of what the character themselves would do. But you know what, vaen? I honestly think that was almost MORE INSULTING to people instead of interesting - it's basically trashing an entire romance option purely "for the plot." Anyone who didn't like Chigara isn't going to like the forced romance, and anyone who DID like Chigara is going to feel put off that this was done to her. And that's probably the REAL biggest reason that people hated the forced romance - not because it was 'cannon/railroaded' but because players probably felt the only reason it was artificially done was "for the plot" instead of actually being a natural evolution of the two's relationship. I've said it before, but either making the extent of the romance optional or even just simply pacing it better (like maybe not talking about things like having kids until, like, after the "final battle"?) would have solved those concerns without ever having had to axe it. Like Marx said, there simply was not anything substantial enough to the romance arc - it felt like trying to down pure saccharine simply because there was no other flavor. I get the feeling you think I'm defending the writer's choices from a developer perspective. I'm not. I had nothing to do with the story or any creative decisions. The only thing I ever influenced was the combat. I explicitely chose to keep myself in the dark as much as possible where story is concerend and never even bothered giving Sam any particular feedback on the story or the game's direction as a whole. Writing is not my thing so I leave it to the expert. I too thought we'd have various character routes by this point, but at the same time I don't dislike the current direction either as future possibilities seem more exciting to me than what could have been done now. Maybe I didn't experience it as a punch to the nose like many seem to as for me the realization was more gradual. I understand you have deep rooted issues with how LibDay turned out, but even if we differ in opinion on how horrible this or that aspect of the story is complaining to me isn't really going to do anything - ever. Even if you convinced me and I suddenly hated the narrative direction of the series I'd still feel it's Sam's prerogative to do with this story as he pleases. Actually... that's far off the mark. Let me please make something as clear I (hopefully) can - I am not, and never was, debating with you under the pretense that it would magically change anything, nor that you had anything to do with how LibDay's story turned out. I am, and always was, debating with you purely because I flat-out disagree with what you've said thus far in defense of the course it took and state why people (not me specifically - the general Sunrider audience, a lot of which had issues with forced romance) disliked what happened in the game. Because honestly, the fact of the matter is I'd sooner accuse you of defending LibDay's story just because you're a Chigara fan then I would over you being a dev (not that I actually think that, mnd you - just a bad example at work  ). Point of fact being that you being on staff has no bearing on why I argue with you on this. Thing is... rushing the player-character down a romance-path AND lynching a waifu's potential for romance, all as a forced plot-point (even if it's a waifu that people have lost interest in) doesn't tend to speak of "future possibilities" that most would find "exciting". To a lot of people, it speaks more to the story being dominated by rushed contrivance instead of actual storytelling. Again, had it been executed better, maybe more would feel as you do - as it is now though, even people who can see both sides like Marx have admitted they'd rather shoot themselves in the head then go through the romance's dialouge. See, that's just it - I'm not at all opposed to how the story in LibDay was done. I have seen non-choosable, plot-essential romances work before. I have seen this kind of thing done repeatedly in anime, manga and VN's alike. Hell, even Gundam SEED Destiny, for all the flack it got/gets, did well in my opinion regarding main-character Shinn Auska's failed romance/bond with enemy bio-modified soldier Stella Loussier, which in turn drove him as a character-development point even after he ended up in a new relationship with long-time friend and fellow pilot Lunamaria Hawke. What I had concerns with though was the same thing that arguably plagued GSD; the execution of it - even senior people like Marx found that romance was terribly forced. It is not a "deep rooted issue" so much as a general concern that at a sizable part, if not a majority, of the community shared one level or another. And that is; if you're going to make a 'railroad romance' in a VN, either make it controlable how far it goes (opt out of sex or the like) or spend as much time as possible developing it and getting the pacing down right (put more space between scenes of kissing, sex and talk of marriage with kids and pets respectively) - because otherwise it's going to come across as a forced plot-contrivance. |
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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 19, 2016 16:17:31 GMT -8
Goodness, this is intense.
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Post by admiralcheese on Mar 19, 2016 17:10:20 GMT -8
Goodness, this is intense. I'd try and lighten the mood a bit but I'm not a fan of explosive decompression. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 19, 2016 17:55:13 GMT -8
Goodness, this is intense. I'd try and lighten the mood a bit but I'm not a fan of explosive decompression. Oh, don't worry - I'm just OCD. Even if it sounds like I'm mad (and I get told that I do alot), I'm not. It's just me being painfully blunt 'bout what I think ^_^; |
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). Point of fact being that you being on staff has no bearing on why I argue with you on this.
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