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Post by Blackhead on Mar 20, 2016 22:41:13 GMT -8
I'm not saying this kind of relationship can't happen - just that LibDay's setting really doesn't do enough to make it believable. and yes it's possible, but for a lot of people, there's very little that actually supports it going down this path to make it feel tangible instead of shoehorned. That's really all I wanted to hear, and I agree. Some minor stuff: Shields Breakdown was not primarily connected to Ava. After being kidnapped and seing the Aliance gun down the little child, he started asking questions. He found himself in an inner moral conflict between two giant fronts. It was the overall pressure, responsibility, compunctions about Maray's death that crushed him. I didn't say the idea of Kayto/Chigara romance was an atrocity, but the static love triangle (amongst other things) was. This most certainly falls under the category. "the way it was handled." Glad, we actually came to a result after all. |
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 21, 2016 0:46:32 GMT -8
I suppose it's useful to position your opponents as prudes, but I don't think the sex itself was a problem for people. People romantically involved have sex, sure. The problem is them being romantically involved. If it's like this, okay. However, what I wanted to express is that people seemed to want the argue it as two different points, when I think it's juts a reflection of how rushed the relationship was. If you problem is with this later (or with the relationship existing at all), then perfect, your opinion is perfectly legitimate and I don't plan to try to convince you of the opposite. |
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Post by saibotlieh on Mar 21, 2016 1:31:20 GMT -8
Well, it's detailed that he went into the Space Force for Ava's sake and it seems more like and only just now gave it up after finally reaching her aboard the Sunrider and slowly deciding that maybe he ought to have let it go. It's never even so much as hinted that he'd pursued anyone else, either (in fact, spending years in the military - back when the Cera Space Force was still intact and there regs against it - would cement that). Also, I should point out that since it seems that Kayto and Ava were both virgins who had their first time together, it's hard to believe he ever got that far with anyone else prior to that - hell, even the shore-leave scene pointed more to Kayto's school crushes being rather one-sided. Additionally, I should point out the fact that Kayto as a whole was always portrayed as rather naive - he really does seem the type that would abstain from another relationship in the hope of at least finding out if the first one was salvageable, and the idea that it wasn't hit him so hard that it's arguably one of the biggest reasons he even ended up falling in so hard with Chigara in the first place (though the execution of that still lacked as that was practically the ONLY thing that there was to back it). Of course you can be right, but I might be right as well. He spends many years (10 I think) apart from Ava and while it is possible that he clings to his affection to her it can also be the case that he goes on. Also I would be surprised if the Cera Space Forces regulate against relationships of their members in general (like celibacy), they might forbid relationships with other members of the forces though. I am certainly not saying that the execution of the relationship with Chigara was flawed, in fact I am far from it, but I think it is problematic to prove ones point by using speculations. But I guess that is one of the problems of this whole argument, that there is just too much unknown about the characters that each one has to fill with their own interpretation of things. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 21, 2016 3:43:54 GMT -8
Well, it's detailed that he went into the Space Force for Ava's sake and it seems more like and only just now gave it up after finally reaching her aboard the Sunrider and slowly deciding that maybe he ought to have let it go. It's never even so much as hinted that he'd pursued anyone else, either (in fact, spending years in the military - back when the Cera Space Force was still intact and there regs against it - would cement that). Also, I should point out that since it seems that Kayto and Ava were both virgins who had their first time together, it's hard to believe he ever got that far with anyone else prior to that - hell, even the shore-leave scene pointed more to Kayto's school crushes being rather one-sided. Additionally, I should point out the fact that Kayto as a whole was always portrayed as rather naive - he really does seem the type that would abstain from another relationship in the hope of at least finding out if the first one was salvageable, and the idea that it wasn't hit him so hard that it's arguably one of the biggest reasons he even ended up falling in so hard with Chigara in the first place (though the execution of that still lacked as that was practically the ONLY thing that there was to back it). Of course you can be right, but I might be right as well. He spends many years (10 I think) apart from Ava and while it is possible that he clings to his affection to her it can also be the case that he goes on. Also I would be surprised if the Cera Space Forces regulate against relationships of their members in general (like celibacy), they might forbid relationships with other members of the forces though. I am certainly not saying that the execution of the relationship with Chigara was flawed, in fact I am far from it, but I think it is problematic to prove ones point by using speculations. But I guess that is one of the problems of this whole argument, that there is just too much unknown about the characters that each one has to fill with their own interpretation of things. Ava's strict enforcement of such regulations aboard the Sunrider seems to point to the Cera Space Force having indeed had those regs regarding relationships and active duty (though I admit you could argue she enforced it harder then any officer normally would). And at the same time, I really doubt Kayto went out with anyone else - wandering eye, maybe, but never actually committing. He also wouldn't exactly be in a situation where he'd expressly want or need to go out with someone else either, like he was in the Sunrider series - though in all honesty, the implication seems to be that he clings to her based off their interactions in the series.
Thing is though that the Chigara relationship WAS rather flawed - perhaps not necessarily in concept but certainly in execution and implementation. Plus, what I'm using is in fact based on what we know of Kayto thus far - it's not really "speculation" so much as "current information." There's no real evidence to suggest Kayto ever got into a serious relationship after Ava between her enlistment and the start of FA. Plus, you can't actually speculate at all unless you know something about the characters to speculate off of. |
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Post by saibotlieh on Mar 21, 2016 6:33:47 GMT -8
Ava's strict enforcement of such regulations aboard the Sunrider seems to point to the Cera Space Force having indeed had those regs regarding relationships and active duty (though I admit you could argue she enforced it harder then any officer normally would). And at the same time, I really doubt Kayto went out with anyone else - wandering eye, maybe, but never actually committing. He also wouldn't exactly be in a situation where he'd expressly want or need to go out with someone else either, like he was in the Sunrider series - though in all honesty, the implication seems to be that he clings to her based off their interactions in the series. Thing is though that the Chigara relationship WAS rather flawed - perhaps not necessarily in concept but certainly in execution and implementation. Plus, what I'm using is in fact based on what we know of Kayto thus far - it's not really "speculation" so much as "current information." There's no real evidence to suggest Kayto ever got into a serious relationship after Ava between her enlistment and the start of FA. Plus, you can't actually speculate at all unless you know something about the characters to speculate off of. Sorry, wanted to say "I am certainly not saying that the execution of the relationship with Chigara was not flawed", sometimes even small words can be really important... Anyhow, I would guess that the Cera Space Force regulations on relationships are pretty similar to modern western army regulations, so no relationship stuff during active duty and with closely related colleagues (like on the same ship), but one is free to pursue it otherwise. So Kayto certainly could have had other relationships, and I would guess he had since that what most people do during their twenties, but none that had a deeper impact on him (since he never thinks back to somebody else than Maray and Ava). So yeah, I think you are right if you argue about high-impact relationships, but not about relationships in general. |
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 21, 2016 9:21:42 GMT -8
Ava's strict enforcement of such regulations aboard the Sunrider seems to point to the Cera Space Force having indeed had those regs regarding relationships and active duty (though I admit you could argue she enforced it harder then any officer normally would). And at the same time, I really doubt Kayto went out with anyone else - wandering eye, maybe, but never actually committing. He also wouldn't exactly be in a situation where he'd expressly want or need to go out with someone else either, like he was in the Sunrider series - though in all honesty, the implication seems to be that he clings to her based off their interactions in the series. Thing is though that the Chigara relationship WAS rather flawed - perhaps not necessarily in concept but certainly in execution and implementation. Plus, what I'm using is in fact based on what we know of Kayto thus far - it's not really "speculation" so much as "current information." There's no real evidence to suggest Kayto ever got into a serious relationship after Ava between her enlistment and the start of FA. Plus, you can't actually speculate at all unless you know something about the characters to speculate off of. Sorry, wanted to say "I am certainly not saying that the execution of the relationship with Chigara was not flawed", sometimes even small words can be really important... Anyhow, I would guess that the Cera Space Force regulations on relationships are pretty similar to modern western army regulations, so no relationship stuff during active duty and with closely related colleagues (like on the same ship), but one is free to pursue it otherwise. So Kayto certainly could have had other relationships, and I would guess he had since that what most people do during their twenties, but none that had a deeper impact on him (since he never thinks back to somebody else than Maray and Ava). So yeah, I think you are right if you argue about high-impact relationships, but not about relationships in general. Thing is though that again, it never seemed like he really had reason to. Think about it - all the girls he knew school and yet he never had a truly intimate relationship with anyone else but Ava in those first eighteen or so years, so why would him not having one 8-10 years after be so surprising? Especially if he'd convinced himself he did love her the way he convinced himself he loved Chigara? I really would guess he hadn't because been in anything, or at least anything serious, since it's hard to imagine him having gotten so broken up over it in MoA if he'd really moved on to that point - hell, he would have had a far easier time dealing with others in-game who liked him such as Claude if he'd really had steady girlfriends before then. It points to him still being pretty naive about this stuff - in terms of relationships in general, he doesn't seem to have had a lot of experience with it so it likely never got to such a point with anyone. And yes I could be wrong - it could just be supposition - but nothing so far really shows that yet. |
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