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Post by planguy on Jul 19, 2017 15:01:34 GMT -8
I really hope that any further games don't feature a lengthy portion that is effectively an elegy to the Chigara relationship. I honestly want such a thing to be optional, it's only fair to allow some element of choice in the matter after having it forced on the player. The very fact that choosing whether or not to pursue a relationship with Chigara is now defined as "reuniting" or "rejecting" is what bugs me. There should be an option for Kayto to stubbornly refuse to see what had happened between him and Chigara as a relationship at all. Other characters should of course address this but it should be a position that the player should be allowed to take. You should have the choice of whether or not Kayto sees Chigara as a Tragic First Love or as an inconsequential mistake. And the player shouldn't be demonized for thinking it was a mistake, either.
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Post by bigfoot on Jul 19, 2017 17:27:00 GMT -8
I really hope that any further games don't feature a lengthy portion that is effectively an elegy to the Chigara relationship. I honestly want such a thing to be optional, it's only fair to allow some element of choice in the matter after having it forced on the player. The very fact that choosing whether or not to pursue a relationship with Chigara is now defined as "reuniting" or "rejecting" is what bugs me. There should be an option for Kayto to stubbornly refuse to see what had happened between him and Chigara as a relationship at all. Other characters should of course address this but it should be a position that the player should be allowed to take. You should have the choice of whether or not Kayto sees Chigara as a Tragic First Love or as an inconsequential mistake. And the player shouldn't be demonized for thinking it was a mistake, either. I see why you would want this, but to me at least it's now a very important part of the story (there is a distinction between approving and thinking it important) and I think considering it an 'inconsequential mistake' is a reversal so extreme it would weaken the narrative, a bit like over steering to correct a car and just crashing in the other direction. To my mind, the expanded epilogue is guilty of this a bit, I would much prefer reflection on it and a more subtle approach personally. |
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Post by planguy on Jul 20, 2017 5:13:05 GMT -8
Yeah, the whole Chigara thing is going too have a big impact, no denying that. How exactly Kayto is going to be able to enter into a relationship with any of the other girls is questionable, for example. Kayto has already been involved with a crewmember and it was disastrous. If Kayto tries to start something with anyone else wouldn't they feel like they are a replacement for Chigara, or that Kayto is once again dealing with stress by boffing another of his subordinates? If Kayto tries to act like Chigara didn't happen then his crew is going to rightly point out that it did in fact happen and that there are consequences for his mistake. But I still feel like it's important for it to at least be an option to play Kayto as believing that his relationship with Chigara wasn't legitimate. That if someone asks "but what about Chigara" Kayto has the option of saying "She meant nothing to me" and meaning it.
I guess what I'm saying is that the extent that the shadow of Chigara should necessarily effect the plot should be limited to the fallout from the relationship. The distrust and bad feelings that have resulted from the ill thought out dalliance. Leave how Kayto feels about Chigara up to the player.
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Post by bigfoot on Jul 20, 2017 9:42:07 GMT -8
I do see what you mean, the player wasn't able to decide to go into it, but I still wouldn't take such a hard line on it. Denying it was a relationship after seeing his own thoughts from LibDay that run directly counter to that would be very jarring as it's shown he does care for her. My feelings are it would serve the story much better if Kayto claims what it was based on was a lie or a sham, giving him a way out rather than make every player who wasn't interested in chigara feel like their kayto was so callous to someone supposed to be a friend by denying he had any feelings the second after it all goes south, not to mention if he does it to one crew member, whats to stop him pulling the same on everyone else? it would massively undermine trust between the crew and him.
If you claim instead, he was in a relationship *but* it was based on lies and misdirection and fell apart that way...
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Post by admiralcheese on Jul 21, 2017 3:39:54 GMT -8
I'm still of the opinion that becoming a yandere hivemind is exactly what Chigara needed in the way of positive character growth. She's much more interesting this way.
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Post by planguy on Jul 21, 2017 19:18:53 GMT -8
I'm still of the opinion that becoming a yandere hivemind is exactly what Chigara needed in the way of positive character growth. She's much more interesting this way. I'm worried that she just going to get more focus with her new situation as an excuse. "Hey, we see that you thought Chigara was a black hole from which there was no escape. Don't worry, we're going to solve that by giving you more of her. She's interesting now, though!" I don't want Chigara to be Kayto's "Most Important Person" as either a lover or as a nemesis. Or at least I want the option to play Kayto as though that isn't the case. Oh! Another thing. I don't hate Chigara enough that I want her route to get scrapped our anything, so I feel I should make another suggestion seeing as how Chigara was so mishandled that I worry that her fans are going to be shafted. If there are any plans to have as part of Chigara's route having Kayto get together some clone of Chigara who is pretending to be with her to mess with his head I would sincerely suggest you not do that. It's wouldn't be a clever trick, it would just be rage inducing. |
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Post by longtimelurker on Jul 22, 2017 21:59:52 GMT -8
About the Chigara thing, maybe a feasible scenario would be choosing to either help her or not when/if Alice tries to get rid of her to get the full control of the prototypes back. If you choose to help her, you would admit that you still care for her and blablabla and try to get back with her, if not, you leave her to her fate which is probably erasure considering she isn't as strong as the "originals". I liked her a decent bit till LD came along, then she quickly headed to the bottom of the barrel in the preference list... Ava will always reign supreme!
What I am most worried about is that there is no more Sunrider. How can the game still be called Sunrider if the ship in question is no more? Can't fire mah gigantic lazors no more without the Vanguard Cannon, that is really lame considering my primary strategy was teleporting around and lasering everything to death with the points I hoard in the early chapters lol. Without Chigara as the tech support I doubt they can easily replicate the technologies involved, much less without the support of the Alliance/Pact now that we are practically everyone's number 1 enemy. Haaa maybe Claude can do some REturn moves and pull another Sunrider from an alternate dimension or something and claim she found it in a Ryuvian graveyard or something.
Some character personalities also worry me a little bit, Icari has become a 1-dimensional character whose only function is to be THE tsundere, and Kryska seems to be becoming something of a bro support. What the heck happened to the hardened mercenary and the dubiously loyal soldier from the Alliance that were so awesome in MoA? I cringed at some interactions with them during LD, they did too much of a 180 in their personalities in too little time. Then again, a lot of things that happened in LD suffered from the same malady too, just hope they can revert back a bit to their old selves after all the s hit that hit the fan in the end.
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Post by planguy on Jul 22, 2017 22:06:57 GMT -8
I'd like there to be an option to help Chigara without it being due to having feelings for her. It's just what you'd do for a member of your crew.
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Post by longtimelurker on Jul 24, 2017 18:41:15 GMT -8
Hmmm treating Chigara as just a crew mate might be a bit hard to do now that she is part of the hivemind. I mean her entire existence itself is very unstable, and some crew members like Asaga are downright hostile to her at this point in the story. So I think that either you have to commit 100% to bringing her back and restoring your relationship with her to stabilize her condition or leave her for good to be destroyed, but that's just my opinion as I can't see a feasible scenario where she decides she is just fine to going back to how things were before all the s hit hit the fan at the end of LD.
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Post by admiralcheese on Jul 25, 2017 10:04:49 GMT -8
Look I'm all for her getting progressively more yandere in her attempts to get back to the captain.
Because that's something every story should have a dose of.
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Post by planguy on Aug 9, 2017 6:41:23 GMT -8
I worry that Chigara being characterized as a yandere is just going to end up being another attempt to force her down peoples throats. Like, "Hmm, you didn't like the forced romance? Well now she is a villain and she'll be the best villain ever!" Going from mary sue to villain sue when I'd prefer her just getting less focus over all.
There is also the fact that the problem with Chigara is not just that some people thought she was forced on them but that some people who liked her original characterization basically had to suffer her character death because Chigara isn't really there anymore. The Chigara restoration path better be pretty good, and it better be possible without romancing her.
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Post by vincent on Aug 16, 2017 3:33:42 GMT -8
I worry that Chigara being characterized as a yandere is just going to end up being another attempt to force her down peoples throats. Like, "Hmm, you didn't like the forced romance? Well now she is a villain and she'll be the best villain ever!" Going from mary sue to villain sue when I'd prefer her just getting less focus over all. There is also the fact that the problem with Chigara is not just that some people thought she was forced on them but that some people who liked her original characterization basically had to suffer her character death because Chigara isn't really there anymore. The Chigara restoration path better be pretty good, and it better be possible without romancing her. I just think they need to stop trying to make her work. They tried to make her work and they failed. Some things may have been by her characterization, some things may have been by how the devs handled it. But she is dead and for the most part her relevance to the story as we know it is dead, this is honestly fine by me. I'd rather have a character die that could have worked but fell short rather than them painfully trying to fix a character by doing the same thing that made them unlikable, but just lathering them in a new coat of paint. I don't think it will win any of the fans over really and it will become a redundant mess, and like you said. People that liked her characterization are just kind of left in the middle of nowhere, and me myself being one of those very very few people who liked her characterization would rather just let her and her arc rest, she did what she had to do and she ended up dying in a very convoluted way, she died knowing she tried her best for the crew and she really has no real purpose to have a personality change, especially when she pretty much overthrew Alice from what it seemed like at the end of Liberation Day. Some characters are better left to just rest and hold their integrity for what they did rather than trying to fix them. Edit: Looking back over this, I think there is one big thing that really nobody has mentioned. If people are unhappy with how one single character's personality worked in the long run, instead of pestering the developers for them to rework the character and try to force her back into the story, why not just ask for a whole new character or just more characters? It would add so much potential and it wouldn't be sacrificing the integrity of a character at the expense of a possibly worse one or one that wouldn't be like how the devs originally planned her. |
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