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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 14, 2016 11:09:11 GMT -8
The thing is, would Chigara and the Captain not having sex completely change their dynamic as a couple? I think part of the problem is that the key word in their relationship is "family". And it's very clear that this family refers to one they're making themselves, it's not the Sunrider's crew. This is the main distinction and what makes so very difficult to simply change that nature; you don't open a bakery, share home and adopt children with your bf. And renouncing to that, is well, renouncing to everything Chigara hoped for; her bakery, her 3/4 children, her dog, etc. I agree with everything on your spoiler; one of the best part about this development is that it actually allows Chigara's future route to have a lot more depth and darkness to it, something that as seen until now was completely lacking on their relationship. That's just it - it's not as a best friend but as a big brother. You're telling me that if this had been Maray, Kayto wouldn't help her with her kids, open a business and live with her if she needed help, or even just offering to help as a matter of course as family? This is again why it feels like you and vaen are saying "sister is lesser then girlfriend because no sex!" The fact of the matter is I don't think that nature would in fact actually change - just the manner in which it's expressed. But that's beating a dead horse by this point. Nice to know that I am in fact contributing something.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 14, 2016 11:05:10 GMT -8
First: Of course the central material would be competitive. One of the things people seemed to dislike about LibDay was that a forced romance was central to the plot - again, taking after Mass Effect, who you choose doesn't have to really impact how the main story goes. Second: I figured it would follow something similar to LibDay but different - develop a close bond with the crewmember in question, with there actually being a choice to take it farther. Also, again referencing Mass Effect (3), the crew interactions weren't vastly different between "normal" and "romanced", so one CG and some extra dialouge apiece would probably be all that's needed. Plus the choice wouldn't even exist if you choose someone in a prior game. I really don't think a system like this is quite so expensive as everyone assumes it to be. seriously man? If you think that "friend" and "romance" is almost the same thing with the difference of 1 CG and few different sentences, then you have never been in decent relationship. Due to your lack of experience you might be confused because of what happened with Chigara in Liberation Day. But that was the special case, her romance almost felt like brother/sister thing. Basically " special case" is NOT common thing, it cannot work that way with everyone. Anyway, let me clear something for you: You are misunderstanding one thing: we are not arguing that your system is totally undoable garbage... We are just saying that its not a good idea. These are 2 different things. We thank you for contributing your revolutionary idea and now you can stop arguing, thanks. Not "friend" - "brother/sister". And I'm saying that, thanks to V2.00, it kinda feels like Kayto has the building blocks to get that close with the rest of the crew now, too. So it's not exactly a "special case" anymore, now is it? One could argue he was getting that way with Sola already as well, back in MoA. He had something similar - though more stunted and introverted - with Ava as well. Hell, even Kryska and Icari seem a stone's throw away from being that close. Again, I don't see how and I don't see why. And saying "it's not a good idea" is tantamount to the same thing, you know.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 13, 2016 22:29:09 GMT -8
since I like FSN, I'd add a bad ending. didn't give Chi the D? okay. way later near the end you then won't be able to exorcise Alpha and she shoots you instead. game over. show a short sketch of claude and asaga making fun of you for making the wrong choice way back in the beginning and send you on your merry way back to the main menu. better luck next time emoticon_chigara_small I don't accept bullshit about sisterly love being just as good. either that's a very weird notion about what it means to 'love a sister' or a very naive understanding about adult relationships. I could compromise about not actually having sex, giving some shit excuse about the timing being wrong or having a headache or w/e and just straight up skip the sex scene (and have a kiss instead maybe) but leave all the rest the same. sounds like it could dodge some of the most vocal butthurt. as for how to handle a new relationship, well. that's where it gets interesting. player will make some choices, affection ratings get checked, some romantic moments later Shields realizes he somehow ended up with the hots for whatever waifu the player guided him towards. and then the chigaras will remind him that although he ended the relationship after branding her a traitor when he came out of that escape pod, she never did. hell hath no fury indeed. Ok… breaking my rule a bit here about not commenting, but what you said both gave me an idea and a chance to maybe clear up something? See, vaen, the reason I disagreed with you about the whole love thing was because it felt (to me) like you’re saying “you can never love your family as much as your girlfriend/boyfriend, because you can’t have sex with them!” It felt like you’re saying the sole reason platonic and romantic relationships are inferior/superior is because one offers sex… and to me, that just feels an incredibly shallow definition of what love means (provided I didn't misinterpret your intent). Love is love - and thinking that it requires sex to be powerful flies in the face of the entire “familial love” vibe the Sunrider crew as a whole had. Claude pretty much proved this to Asaga in LibDay, didn’t she? That love means more then just who you’re sleeping with? I’m all for the compromise - I do think it would axe a lot of complaints - but I’m hoping this pseudo-tangent clears up a bit of the reason why I, and probably many others, weren’t big fans of the arbitrary romance, even if we can somewhat understand the reasons it was done. Still, based on the comments here, I can now somewhat understand how getting a new romance would work - though by all means I'd enjoy hearing more! On the relationship part, I’d actually thought of something that could add even more depth: Say Chigara returns, and Kayto does in fact decide that the relationship was just him seeking comfort. I think it would be interesting if Chigara admits she KNEW that already - that she was fully aware, or at least believed, Kayto was just using her as a comfort tool instead of truly loving her. And yet she let him do so because she felt his happiness was more important, to everyone aboard the ship, then her own was or even if their relationship was ever "real".
It would really highlight Chigara’s kind-nature (or at least her nature before Fontana killed her), as well as serve as a development tool if she is able to look back in hindsight and decide it was a mistake to make herself Kayto’s comfort-tool because it let Kayto become too dependent on her - to the point that it blinded him, like what Marx and Somasam suggested.
Or instead, if she absorbs traits from Alice or Lynn, she could also express bitterness about it - anger that this was the extent of the relationship, jealousy for whoever Kayto is with now and a generally more jaded outlook on what Kayto does and doesn’t mean to her (you know, after she sacrificed her happiness and even her innocence as a woman for his sake and pretty soundly got the short end of the stick). All of which would add another, very dark layer to Kayto getting a new relationship - knowing that his ex gave up everything just because he was in a rut and didn’t care if it wasn’t actually real or if she got nothing back… which makes him both an unwitting jerk and partly responsible for her tragic fate because he accepted her as an outlet so readily and didn't think it through.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 13, 2016 21:47:50 GMT -8
first thing OP writes: This is more to provide something constructive for Samu-Kun... blah blah yada yada ^ generally this is the BS (bullshit) we should avoid. Trying to advice how the story should go, basically "love" story written by comitteeThing is, if it weren't for the "comittee" speaking up, IDK if we'd have gotten V2.00. Plus, Samu-Kun himself said that lack of "comittee" comments on writing/story was why he figured it wasn't what people wanted from Sunrider. Sides, whether or not Samu does anything with the feedback is his option - as is, the thread works just as well as a medium to voice how people think the relationship stuff will go.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 13, 2016 16:09:08 GMT -8
I also felt that the continuous explanation hurt this segment. I might have forgiven the bad explanations if there was simply more content and plot between them. To give me time for my sense of disbelief to recover. Agreed that the way they were executed was a major issue. Claude and Alpha both talk about subjects they BOTH already know about (Alpha's plans, her motivations, the fact that Claude is bored and horny). The only thing that I felt interested in was Chigara's survival and attacks on the hivemind. Fontana and Kuushana's conversation about Arcadius was even worse, because they both clearly acknowledged that they both knew everything they were saying and talking about it was simply wasted breath. We've already talked about this, but again, Sola's sudden understanding of Time and Space was crazy. Also, was I the only one that was really thrown into a loop by Kuushana's name? Because I saw her character model, assumed that PACT was basically Russia, and hoped she would get a Russian or Eastern European name. Finally, if I were put under duress, I would say that Sola got her knowledge from the events of Sunrider Academy. If this is true, it makes this far less ass-pully, but it was communicated badly and resulted in a huge disconnect from the audience. Actually, on the LibDay homepage, it DOES directly reference Sola's "dimensional-refracted" copies an their being split up over multiple realities - in fact it kinda hints that Sola herself is aware of all this. That in turn implies that what we see in Sola's route of Academy is true, and that our Sola made contact with the Academy Kayto (or ONE of them, at least - I assume that each route of SA is an alternate timeline and therefore that they technically all happened).
So as far as we know, Sola DOES in fact have knowledge of Academy's events (or at least events as they pertain to the timeline where one of her copies fell in love with Kayto). And it could have been implanted by Sola explaining she had a phantom link to her copies (saw their lives and memories in her dreams or the like) prior to the Academy Kayto and Academy Chigara destroying the machine that made the dimensional bleed possible (which in turn explains why Sola is still around in the Asaga, Ava and Chigara routes - what was done in the timeline of the Sola route echoed into all others and stabilized Sola's presence - good GOD, this is grade-A Doctor Who material!!).
Short answer - it's pretty likely that Sola does know about Academy's events and that would have been a very good way to explain it all. And who knows - maybe that's what Sola WILL say and she's just holding out for now because it's a touchy subject at the moment(?) Long story short(er) - yeah, it could have been implemented better. Still better then what we had before, but it could have had some better execution.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 13, 2016 16:00:57 GMT -8
The problem is that if a game features one optional romance route, that you may or may not choose, it creates two issues. First, the base game material should be competitive enough, else the people who declined the optional route will be pissed at missing on content. Second, that sounds similar to "Take the reward" / "Decline" kind of a choice, which is not really a choice at all. After all, who is their sane mind would refuse. I.e. what's the point in playing the game, if you're not interested in what it has to offer. The alternative is to make two equal routes, one featuring romance, and the other not. Unfortunately, that tends to get expensive to produce real quick. First: Of course the central material would be competitive. One of the things people seemed to dislike about LibDay was that a forced romance was central to the plot - again, taking after Mass Effect, who you choose doesn't have to really impact how the main story goes. Second: I figured it would follow something similar to LibDay but different - develop a close bond with the crewmember in question, with there actually being a choice to take it farther. Also, again referencing Mass Effect (3), the crew interactions weren't vastly different between "normal" and "romanced", so one CG and some extra dialouge apiece would probably be all that's needed. Plus the choice wouldn't even exist if you choose someone in a prior game. I really don't think a system like this is quite so expensive as everyone assumes it to be.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 13, 2016 14:29:40 GMT -8
Example: Chapter 1: Eva Chapter 2: Sola Chapter 3: Icari Chapter 4: Asaga Chapter 1 Eva route+ decline. Chapter 2: continue Eva route + start Sola route + decline. Chapter 3. continue Eva route + continue Sola route + start Icari route + decline. Chapter 4: continue Eva route + continue Sola route + continue Icari route + start Asaga route + decline. TERRIBLE TERRIBLE IDEA. And now, when I ask "how is taking care of the majority of one romance per game going to cause financial difficulties and drawbacks??", you jump to "trolling". I will explain it to you, why its not financially feasible: in Sunrider we know all the girls from start. At some point even Love in Space presented it in the way " which girl will you get?" on their page (around 2014?). So after teasing and promising something, fans will be disappointed if they dont get it. Especially if they have to pay for it. it's quite simple. Fans who are absolutely not interested in Icari route (your chapter 3) wont buy that chapter. Thats why it will be financially difficult. And there are even worse possibilities: Even more hardcore fan who is only interested in Asaga will say " Call me in 4 years when you finally release chap 4 with Asaga. Bye." Just strategy part of game is not that good to justify players paying for it. Mask of Arcadius gave us choices and hints of possible romance... so thats what players expect. Another thing to mention is the amount of work developers would have to do to include every possible event in later chapters (in every next chapter, the amount of work you have to do skyrockets). Why "your idea" worked in Mass Effect? Do you know why this episodic attitude was feasible in Mass Effect? Because in Mass Effect 1 we had only 2 girlz: Liara + Ashley. Players didnt know about Subject Zero, Miranda, etc. so they couldnt be pissed "why no Miranda romance?!"
While there were introduced new girlz in Mass Effect 2 , the 2 original girls were "busy" with another work, so they were not available so Sheppard had excuse to get intimate with new girlz... or he could wait for Mass Effect 3, but that idea works only that much. People are not willing to pay money to get something they dont want. If Bioware presented 4 games without Liara/Ashley people would be mad.
If it's optional whether or not to go down the "Icari Route", it shouldn't be an issue. Same for Asaga. I'm simply taking how, like with Chigara in LibDay, you could focus on the development of one or two girls per entry and then have one romance route be optional for each. As it stands, more then a few people didn't buy LibDay purely because the one romance there wasn't optional, not because there was one romance. The Mass Effect example was more geared to Garrus and Tali, both of which we knew but could not romance in the first Mass Effect. Miranda, Jack and the rest were not part of my example.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 13, 2016 12:12:45 GMT -8
While I didn't mind much the exposition given just how much desperately it was needed (like, we knew nothing of Alice and real Arcadius if we hadn't read Veniczar), it's true that in general it was done very clumsily, the same with the characters seeming to speak more in long speeches instead of dialogues. And I still don't know how you can tell as asspulls things that were predicted and fairly agreed on before 2.00, but as it seems more than one person seems to have had that problem before I'll stop.To clarify, it's probably the WAY they were EXECUTED that got received as being asspulls, not the things themselves. Lots of things can feel like an asspull if you fail at executing the implementation.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 13, 2016 12:05:10 GMT -8
Likewise, I'm stating the opinion shared by a lot of the people who bought it - out of the current story-content, forced romance was a problem that matched the severity of the issues people had with the ending. Hell, I think one other poster here said it was actually a BIGGER issue then the ending was. There's no one arguing on you on this; an important part of the fanbase does indeed have that opinion. However, what you can't do is simply tell all the people that don't agree with that "you are missing my point" or "you are contradicting yourself". In all cases, having arguments over this is useless until we have all the parts and then we can argue if it was done well or not. If you want to press Samu-kun to take your choice then a poll or another thread is the way, not continuing here. Oh, and Alternative had the MC have a forced relationship with a girl despite having all the memories of having relationships with basically every other girl (and he also had the memories of Extra, where Sumika had been). I don't see how it's simply not relevant; even if the others didn't remember, he clearly did. Samu-kun has gone out of his way more than once to state that Alternative was a very big influence too. I direct you to the title of this thread - it seems like it fits here. Also, I should point out that you're also guilty of making a "missing my point" declaration, too. And having all the parts isn't the way to solve the debate - hindsight is 20/20, and waiting till then to talk about it precludes the entire point of community feedback; helping the game WHILE it is in development. Again, I still don't get why you're still trying to argue that when that game had the advantage of multiple alternate realities and timelines, all of which shaped him in ways that are really, really different from Sunrider. Again, it wasn't the model that the game was made popular by - it was the story. And LibDay's just doesn't match well enough to make that comparison feel fair, let alone right.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 13, 2016 0:27:00 GMT -8
SharrOfRyuvia Everyone thought Kayto had died on the Sunrider, it is understandable that emotions were sensitive in the following scenes and everyone wanted his attention as he was such an important figure in their lives. With this in mind I don't think they are trying to jump into bed with him, more they are all trying to find comfort in him surviving. You do not realise what you have lost until it is gone. In regards to Chigara I am under the impression that this will be returned to in the next chapter, there was only so much they would have wanted to put into 2.00 without giving too much away for the next chapter. At least this is how I read Liberation Day in its current state. Point was that it seems a tad extreme by comparison, since they don't really seem to give any consideration to the one of them that, as far as they know, DID in fact die.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 23:54:37 GMT -8
You know... I never realized it until now, but the girls seem really, really causal about announcing that they love Kayto now that he's single. ... What the hell are they, vultures?! Do they all really feel no long-lasting feelings about Chigara up and dying, to say nothing of how it happened?! Not even Asaga after she'd finally reconciled somewhat with her?! Hell, I think Kayto's the only damn person who mourned her at all - Claude's supposed death got more acknowledgement from the crew then Chigara's forced brainwashing did!
Either they all dismissed her as just a traitor or they figure she's still with them in the form of Lynn, but either way it still seems really abrupt that they're trying to jump into his bed just hours after he had his girlfriend die in his arms!
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 22:55:15 GMT -8
This is more to provide something constructive for Samu-Kun to look at if he decides to persist in not making the "railroad romance" in LibDay optional. Naturally, there are SPOILERS ahead; If we do in fact get the option to pick a different waifu in future installments of Sunrider... how do you - the fans/players/ect - expect Kayto to rationalize entering another relationship after what happened with Chigara? How would he look back on it entering a new relationship? Would he see what happened with Chigara as a fling? A rebound to finally forget Ava? A complete mistake? Would it be a memory he still treasures or would he feel depressed? Would he feel it was real at the time or would there be any guilt at the idea that he might have just been stringing a poor innocent girl along by the heartstrings just for his own happiness? Would he even be able to really get into another relationship for fear of just leading somebody on with something that may not have even been real? Would he see himself as inhumane for having been with Chigara like that only to now be trying to get with someone else? And how do you think it would affect trying to be with someone else - what would the other girls think? Would they feel awkward thinking of poor Chigara having been in love with Kayto all that time only to now be the one with him instead? Would they feel sickened? Upset? Unsure? Would they wonder if what was between the two had ever even been real and if anything they get into would be real? Would they question how much Kayto cares about them if he can really just go into another relationship after (what I assume to be) a few short months? Or would Kayto be the one that isolates himself so much that they pry him out of it as he gets closer to them - would THEY be the ones to convince him it's safe for others to love him and vice-versa? If Samu-Kun isn't going to change what happened in LibDay regarding that forced romance - and because I for one sure as hell can't figure out personally how future romances will work if that stays as is - how about you the community pitch in and work together to give him and the staff tips on how he COULD make it work? Or at the very least educate me on how it would . Because, contrary to what some (like I assume vaendryl) may believe, I do in fact understand the idea behind having a main character who is fallible, human and majorly screws the pooch/gets into something that really complicates how he moves forward with his life and how he interacts with others, even if I don't agree with not giving any agency to how that something plays out before or during the fact. So have at it - discuss how YOU think the complication of his tragic failed romance with Chigara would or wouldn't affect Kayto having a relationship with the other waifus. Given my not knowing how that would work/how trying another romance with a Kayto who WAS in a relationship with Chigara would work, I'll stick to an observer role for this discussion for the time being. In fact I doubt I'll ever comment on the ideas posted - you know, seeing as, again, I can't think of how it would work; that's gonna be your job .
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 21:40:06 GMT -8
I think Alice is dead now. Exorcizing her from Chigara might have did her in somehow.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 20:58:48 GMT -8
And best girl takes the lead! Is it actually going to make a difference in the game this time? I'd like to think a lot of people would like that
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 19:33:58 GMT -8
That's just it - I advocated this because of financial considerations. You'd only need to do one major romance-block per-chapter for a new option with just a few annotation-scenes/CG's for a pre-existing romance. There wouldn't be any need to cram like five different routes into one entry - just conclusions to already-active things. Yeah, but you have to consider the whole sister/brother complex possibility. For all we know, that's as far as it goes for Icari and Kayto right now - especially since judging it all on one extended ending vs the rest of the series says nothing for sure. Okay I'm out. You are trolling, right? There is NO way you can be serious. You got us all good man... me, Vaen, Marx and everyone else. emoticon_ava_small No. I am 100% dead serious. Hell, I actually can't figure out why you think otherwise. And now, when I ask "how is taking care of the majority of one romance per game going to cause financial difficulties and drawbacks", you jump to "trolling". How 'bout you tell me where that leap of non-logic came from? How is compartmentalizing things the way ME1 & ME2 did for the respective romances the two did and didn't available - something that would require only a few short acknowledgements to a pre-existing romance if it's there - this expensive and unwieldy system you somehow think is obvious to see?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 18:26:06 GMT -8
What I see being repeated very often is that a non-sexual relationship with Chigara could've worked just as well for the plot as though this is fact. I do not agree, but this is a point I can see people having valid conflicting opinions over. however, that's only taking the plot into account to the point it is publicly known thus far. Depending on how future events end up being shaped by the events in all of Sunrider (all 3 parts that is) it may end up obvious to all that a non-sexual relationship wouldn't have worked and major future events would likely have to follow a drastically different path had things gone differently. a path that may not even be interesting to explore, let alone economical to produce. It's too early to tell, but if things head in the direction I expect this seems likely to me. again though, a lively discussion on the bigger picture seems pointless at this moment. that said though, the ire this 'issue' raises baffles me. if just this bothers you for the love of god never play school days. that game delights in fucking with the player and making a mockery of what the player chooses. getting railroaded into a relationship with a girl is the very first thing that happens and getting out again is all sorts of painful no matter what you do. and that's not even the worst of it. and yet the game seems fairly popular anyway. it will forever boggle my mind. I haven't seen anything that really makes that impossible. Again - people could accept Kayto loving Chigara as part of the plot; he was already close enough to her from the events of MoA to make that believable. What made people put on the breaks was that there was no choice to express that love as that between brother-sister instead of lover - that there was no option otherwise. The thing is... that's a pretty blatant non-answer. You can't really justify it with an example you do not have - especially since that could be seen as degrading Chigara to "plot-required screw". And herein lies the rub - I NEVER said to remove the option for a sexual relationship with Chigara; only that there be an option to choose one or the other. Especially since there, quite honestly, is nothing that actually did require it to be a sexual relationship instead of non-sexual - and choosing the other option wouldn't affect anything; it wouldn't impact that Chigara loves Kayto, it wouldn't impact that Kayto came to cherish Chigara as an emotional support and love her as family and it wouldn't impact how that bond was what broke Chigara free of Alice. It basically only requires there be A deep, loving relationship between Kayto and Chigara - not that it needed to be sexual or non-sexual or that the option to make that distinction would have changed anything. And one of the only ways you could even imply otherwise is there's some sort of destiny-baby that's supposed to be born from it (though that would degrade Chigara even more). Likewise, you tried to argue "if it lead to the same conclusion, there would be no point to the choice and people would be angry" - but they weren't with all the other choices in Sunrider that lead to the same conclusion, now were they? Hell, the entire reason I said Mass Effect was a bad example for you to use was because it proves the exact opposite of what you were saying - that committing or abstaining from a romance didn't mean the plot had to change and that nobody would be angry about that (all choices result in the same general narrative between the three games - and nobody cared... at least until the final ending of ME3). By all accounts, it's the same exact path and the same elements - they're just expressed slightly different; enough to give the player the "illusion of choice". And you know what - yes, School Days IS in fact a better example because you at least are given the "illusion of choice"; Main Character arguably loves both love-interests but he chooses how that love is expressed, and even if the results range from "cornball" to "Horror-show" to "WTF", it still portrays it as though you're able to alter how the MC sees the waifus - you don't ever really FEEL locked in even when you are. I'm not saying you follow the stories they used - just that you keep in mind that agency, even if just cosmetic in an unchanging/locked-in narrative, can make all the difference for if a player enjoys the VN/story. You could have had Chigara's relationship with Kayto be optional as sexual or non-sexual and it really wouldn't have changed anything besides HOW their bond of love was expressed between the two. P.S. - In retrospect, it's ironic you find School Day's system so baffling considering you're practically advocating the same for LibDay. Hell, with how it ends (either Kayto regards it as a heat-of-the-moment lapse for lust and want of companionship (possibly rebounding off his rejection from Ava, though that's just my two cents) and decides the whole thing with Chigara, with all the talk of bakeries and kids, was a big mistake and moves on to some other girl - or he regards it as genuine and keeps pursuing it), one could say the romance in LibDay was "School Days: Gundam Edition" and not be entirely off the mark. (Yeah, I'm being mean - blowing off steam, so to speak ).
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 18:04:12 GMT -8
<abbr data-timestamp="1457830143000" class="time" title="Mar 13, 2016 1:49:03 GMT 1">Mar 13, 2016 1:49:03 GMT 1</abbr> SharrOfRyuvia said: I don't see how and I don't see why not. And again, not really - take how Chigara was portrayed in LibDay. A few alterations (extra dialouge and one new CG at best) to that could make it work as a sister-bond just as easily. If you spend much of one chapter focused on a specific character, it really wouldn't take that much more of an addition to turn it into a romance. That premise is kinda incorrect in and of itself - you don't need to do major extra content for a character you're locked-in with from a previous chapter, mainly because all that development's already done. At most one or two extra scenes would be needed. I'll use Mass Effect 3 as an example - the interactions with all the characters in the game are largely the same (same conversations about the same topics with the same overall events. You don't have to romance Garrus to have him take you on a shooting contest, you don't have to romance Liara to have lunch with her, ect), with the romance option having some extra dialouge and maybe one or two exclusive scenes. The very least you would have to account for is perhaps some obligatory dialouge-references - the only part where it would REALLY have a lot of exclusive content would be the final chapter with the epilogues and "final bang before the last battle" stuff as far as I'd see. Have you even seen how Kryska and Icari interact even just as far as LibDay goes? If it's headcannon, it's one Samu-Kun seemingly endorses - plus I don't remember him actually saying it wouldn't happen. Hey, I'm not saying that your proposition is impossible to implement, but I just want to point out the financial difficulties and drawbacks. There are easier, cheaper, and straight up simpler options on how to handle this. No doubt. On Kryska/Icari: Samu has tons of fun with these two, that's undeniable. But just by judging on V2.0's ending and how Icari reacts/interacts with Shields, it makes things definite in my view. But who knows? Maybe it really turns out differently. Kayto: Hey Icari, what's up? Just dumped down Eva for you. Icari: Sorry boy, you're not men enough for me! Kryska: Sir! Sorry, I'm off duty! Kryska and Icari proceed to make out with each other. Kayto: Fuck! Well....Ava it is! Haha. If that really happens, prepare for world war 3. It is one thing to temporarily romance someone for a game, but having his waifu turned into a lesbian and get it on with another one of the cast, right in front of you, after you waited for multiple years. People would storm Love in Space studios. And know what? Supreme Commander Blackhead would lead the mob! Edit: On ask. I don't know. I'll maybe take a look at it later. That's just it - I advocated this because of financial considerations. You'd only need to do one major romance-block per-chapter for a new option with just a few annotation-scenes/CG's for a pre-existing romance. There wouldn't be any need to cram like five different routes into one entry - just conclusions to already-active things. Yeah, but you have to consider the whole sister/brother complex possibility. For all we know, that's as far as it goes for Icari and Kayto right now - especially since judging it all on one extended ending vs the rest of the series says nothing for sure. Granted, I wouldn't be opposed to owning a Tsun-cruiser, but I've just kinda stopped expecting it since the primary contenders (if Academy is any indication) were Sola, Ava, Chigara and Asaga.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 17:20:41 GMT -8
First - Again, you're arguing factors that have no bearing on this. I said it was a factor that a lot of people - which I estimated to be "roughly 50%" - got the game for. [...] Fourth - You're arguing semantics here. "At best" and "At most" are the same thing - inferences from the most generous standpoint for a statistic. "Half the selling points" does not mean "this is a factor that influenced half the people to get this game" (hint: as read, one must logically sum to 100% and the other need not.) I have been telling you this to the point of tedium. You appear to insist on missing the point. '"At best" and "At most" are the same thing' - yes, thank you for repeating what I said. "At best" and "at most" can be read as "inferences from the most generous standpoint". "Roughly" CANNOT. In other words: roughly 50% of Mass Effect's selling points I said it was equal/50% at bestare not the same thing. Which is what I have been pointing out. In case you need the point hammered in: sort the following words into two groups of similar meanings:
roughly at best at most best case base case median mean I keep telling you "that is NOT what those words mean" and you keep pretending that it is without even the least attempt to justify it. I have not the time or the inclination to make a discussion work with such constraints. This conversation is over. First - I feels more like you're missing the point here. If you equate something to being "half the selling point", that IS the same as saying "this is a factor that influenced half the people to get this game". That's what I got from watching how the core fan-base operated back when ME was still current (that hint is redundant - I already pointed out that I'd termed ME as being divided between "story-lovers" and "waifu-lovers"). Ergo - I restate; I didn't miss anything. Second - Not quite true. "Roughly" assumes an estimate of something, which in turn CAN and in many cases IS born of inferences from the most generous standpoint. What I said still holds - "roughly 50%" was my claim. When you tried to accuse me of saliency bias, I pointed out you could not because, AT BEST, I said the most you could say was that I equated it as equal to story and never that it was stand-alone superior to all others. In short - this is the result of another miscommunication. Third - That's just it; YOU are the one that insisted on debating this stuff instead of the thing I was even using it as an example for - the fact that having at least some degree of agency in a romance will satisfy people regardless of if it doesn't impact the main story itself. That so long as people feel they have a choice in those interactions and possible romances that the story itself doesn't need to change/be different for every possible waifu. That was what I originally was debating, and that's what you in turn don't even seem remotely interested in focusing on - even though it's the entire point of this thread.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 17:08:36 GMT -8
... You know that MuvLuv Alternative, constantly rated as the best translated VN was precisely a series that had spanned already 2 long (30+ hours or more) games with different routes that ended with a final ending in which you couldn't choose the love interest? Here it's not even final. The illusion of choice, at least in terms of romantic pairings, has never been a worry of kinetic VNs. Mostly because most kinetic VNs rely on making their characters whole, in the sense that "choice" itself doesn't make sense because that character "isn't you". A lot of not kinetic VNs actually present illusion of choice through things very different than romantic partners (like Fate), and then there's Princess Waltz, which like was before stated is basically identical to Liberation Day in that issue. Again, I'm not even talking about my opinion, but about facts of a genre that's been a clear inspiration to Samu-kun (Muvluv in particular is one of its big influences). ... YOU do know that game dealt with alternate-timelines and looping realities, right? And a protagonist who'd had his personal life re-done multiple times, with a timeline where one of the two characters from Muv-Luv Extra didn't even seem to exist? Ergo - how the hell does that even come close to applying here? It's rated so well because the story is so good, not because of it's format (plus, watch it when saying "the best" - if there's one thing I've learned, it's that doing this is a quick way to start wars, regardless of if it's true or not ) The thing is, Unlike Princess Waltz, what was done with Chigara wasn't done in a way that was believable or deep enough to make it not feel awkward and forced to the player. Also, Princess Waltz was a stand-alone game that introduced that as the starting point to build from before divulging - whereas Sunrider has the disadvantage of this feeling to many like two prior games of narrative choice-making were utterly tossed out. Had LibDay been the first game in the Sunrider series, you might have had a point and it might have gotten away with kicking it off having Kayto in a relationship - but it's not, so it's not quite so easy. Likewise, I'm stating the opinion shared by a lot of the people who bought it - out of the current story-content, forced romance was a problem that matched the severity of the issues people had with the ending. Hell, I think one other poster here said it was actually a BIGGER issue then the ending was.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 16:49:03 GMT -8
Not really. Firstly: I really doubt every waifu is going to be a romance option anyway (Icari and Kryska seem pretty locked-in with each-other so far, though I may be wrong). Secondly, LibDay could have been re-worked to be where you do or don't lock-in with Chigara. And in all honesty, aside from the CG's, the most it amounts to is SOME dialouge changes in the end, and most of the romance-scenes specific to that character would be done in that chapter (example - they pretty much did all the Chigara-consumation stuff in LibDay so they wouldn't have needed to focus heavily on it in the future). If you spend a lot of time interacting with that character anyway, then pushing it into a romance really wouldn't need that much extra work - just like it wouldn't take much work to turn the Chigara-romance in LibDay into a more "surrogate sibling" love. Also, I'm saying that each chapter has the option to PERMANENTLY lock in with a character - you don't get access to anyone in latter chapters if you locked in with someone before had. Seems there was another miscommunication - I was advocating that once you pick someone in one chapter, you're locked with them and can't back out for a new one the next chapter; you're locked in once you pick them (just like in Academy). The only difference being that only one route is available to access per chapter, but you can't access it unless you abstained from picking a route in a previous chapter. So it would really be more like: Chapter 1(LibDay): Chigara route + Decline Chapter 2: (insert Waifu here)* + Decline Chapter 3: (insert Waifu here)* + Decline *You can only enter a new route if you're still single. Secondly: That's pretty much what already happened in LibDay, you know. At least this way there'd be actual narrative reason for focus on one character over the others - example; Sola seems to be the one who will have more spotlight attention next release, so having her route be the one possible to enter or decline next chapter would make more narrative sense. Your logic is flawed here, that's not how it works. it doesn't matter one bit if you're permanently locked with a Character or not, the mere option that you can decline or decide for someone makes it necessary to create content for both decision paths. Just look at the setup you posted. For example: "Chapter 3: (insert Waifu here)* + Decline " Let's say Chapter 3 waifu is Asaga. As it stands Chapter 3 has only content for romancing Asaga+declining, but that's incorrect. If you chose Chigara in Chapter 1, that decision has to be carried over in Chapter 3. If you chose Sola in Chapter 2, that has to be carried over. With every Chapter you add, there is more stuff you have to account for later in, depending on who you romance. Otherwise there would be no indication that you're in a relationship with someone in the given Chapter. As for Kryska/Icari. I think them being together is pretty much headcanon. We can argue about Kryska-Kayto, but Icari has more than once shown interest in Shields. I'm not sure, but I believe Samu has also objected the Yuri-pairing at some point on ask.fm I don't see how and I don't see why not. And again, not really - take how Chigara was portrayed in LibDay. A few alterations (extra dialouge and one new CG at best) to that could make it work as a sister-bond just as easily. If you spend much of one chapter focused on a specific character, it really wouldn't take that much more of an addition to turn it into a romance. That premise is kinda incorrect in and of itself - you don't need to do major extra content for a character you're locked-in with from a previous chapter, mainly because all that development's already done. At most one or two extra scenes would be needed. I'll use Mass Effect 3 as an example - the interactions with all the characters in the game are largely the same (same conversations about the same topics with the same overall events. You don't have to romance Garrus to have him take you on a shooting contest, you don't have to romance Liara to have lunch with her, ect), with the romance option having some extra dialouge and maybe one or two exclusive scenes. The very least you would have to account for is perhaps some obligatory dialouge-references - the only part where it would REALLY have a lot of exclusive content would be the final chapter with the epilogues and "final bang before the last battle" stuff as far as I'd see. Have you even seen how Kryska and Icari interact even just as far as LibDay goes? If it's headcannon, it's one Samu-Kun seemingly endorses - plus I don't remember him actually saying it wouldn't happen (then again I haven't kept up with his ask.fm, so how would I know?). Do you know where it is/if that quote's still viewable?
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 16:16:58 GMT -8
I have. Both of them in fact. Neither of which actually equate what I'm proposing here - not entirely. Unlike either of those, the main story does not/would not change at all - in that, it would be closer to Mass Effect in how the person you choose to love doesn't radically alter the story itself. So, the heroine is just along for the ride then? Yes. Like Mass Effect. Or, like you yourself said, Agarest Generations of War. At best you might get one different epilogue CG about how Kayto's life afterword ends up, but I'd think the endgame plays out about the same - who you romance isn't what'll change that.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 16:10:57 GMT -8
Not really. Firstly: I really doubt every waifu is going to be a romance option anyway (Icari and Kryska seem pretty locked-in with each-other so far, though I may be wrong). Secondly, LibDay could have been re-worked to be where you do or don't lock-in with Chigara. And in all honesty, the most it amounts to is SOME dialouge changes in the end, and most of the romance-scenes specific to that character would be done in that chapter (example - they pretty much did all the Chigara-consumation stuff in LibDay so they wouldn't have needed t focus heavily on it in the future) Also, I'm saying that each chapter has the option to PERMANENTLY lock in with a character - you don't get access to anyone in latter chapters if you locked in with someone before had. Seems there was another miscommunication - I was advocating that once you pick someone in one chapter, you're locked with them and can't back out for a new one the next chapter; you're locked in once you pick them (just like in Academy). The only difference being that only one route is available to access per chapter, but you can't access it unless you abstained from picking a route in a previous chapter. So it would really be more like: Chapter 1(LibDay): Chigara route + Decline Chapter 2: (insert Waifu here)* + Decline Chapter 3: (insert Waifu here)* + Decline *You can only enter a new route if you're still single. Secondly: That's pretty much what already happened in LibDay, you know. At least this way there'd be actual narrative reason for focus on one character over the others - example; Sola seems to be the one who will have more spotlight attention next release, so having her route be the one possible to enter or decline next chapter would make more narrative sense. Go read Himawari no Shoujo or G-Sensou no Maou. It follows exactly what you're proposing and I HIGHLY recommend them. Himawari no Shoujo is about a dystopian society where you as the protagonist is training to become a Special High Class Individual (Hmm... Sort of like, commissars for civilians?) at your home town. Balance that and that your home town was the starting point of a revolution years ago, your father was the leader of that revolution, and your exam proctor is your father's best friend and executioner... Things get interesting. G-Sensou no Maou is about the yakuza and the darker side of Japan where you as the protagonist am the genius adopted son of the biggest, baddest yakuza head in Tokyo whom you owe a significant debt to. (Balancing school life, underground life, making sure you keep your "papa" happy so he doesn't throw you into the bottom of Tokyo Bay, and solving the mystery of the new gang on the block where you seem to finally meet your match) I have. Both of them in fact. Neither of which actually equate what I'm proposing here - not entirely. Unlike either of those, the main story does not/would not change at all - in that, it would be closer to Mass Effect in how the person you choose to love doesn't radically alter the story itself.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 16:06:36 GMT -8
Kinetic Novels actually have 0 choices and 0 player agency. No illusion of choice there. Now, I'm not arguing about Sunrider being like this, because as I said before, the illusion of choice is important. But there are a lot VNs in which the order of romance is enforced, and what you choose is if you continue reading or not. I was not even arguing for my opinion, but rather explaining to you a specific genre amongst VNs that's actually very praised. I don't even know how can I be contradicting myself when telling a fact. And Samu-kun may want to work with that, the problem being we can't even see if it's done well until the game is finished. I never even spoke about my personal opinion The thing is, VN's where the order of romance is enforced does not immediately translate into said romance lacking any sort of distinctions or agency at all. It's only "very praised" if you do it RIGHT, and that requires an illusion of choice be present - such as giving distinction to what way it was that you loved someone, which in turn removes the feeling that it's contrived and awkward. LibDay did not do that very well - which almost contradicts saying that illusion of choice is important if you're trying to say that LibDay fits into that kind of genre as-is. That's not even counting the fact that those games you're talking about - they're typically stand-alone titles, whereas Sunrider was somewhat portrayed as giving choices that mattered (or at least look different enough to give the illusion of choice) across a whole series, and not being able to define how you care about a character kind of rubs people the wrong way - having it be plot-enforced that Kayto cares and even loves Chigara is something I don't think would have caught flak if only there'd been the choice to define that love as being either sibling or romantic.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 15:57:59 GMT -8
Yes, that's about the gist of what I meant would work for Sunrider - you could follow the same overall premise with the same story path no matter what, but just a bit of agency makes all the difference. Hell, a tjrpg-VN hybrid in is pretty close to what Sunrider was/is for the most part. Kayto growing to love Chigara - I don't think that would have been complained about so much if there was the ability to choose if it was sibling love or romance love. I was one of the ones that didn't complain about it. o///o Hm, but I play VNs differently from most people. I read them for the story, which means I usually go down all the paths. Just to see what's on the other side. So I didn't really mind there not being any routes. It's just like watching a TV show I imagine. (Not that I would know since I don't watch TV...) Hmm. I imagine the writers already have some sort of plot for the future. Also with romance already involved, having to account for several different path while sticking to the main story is really, really difficult since we're this far in. Agarest Generations of War pulled it off because the story didn't follow just one character, but 5 different ones. Albeit each one was the son of the previous one... But you get the idea. I don't expect every character to be a romance option, though. And in reality, what happened with Chigara, albeit re-worked, seems a model to ensure that kind of thing doesn't happen - have Kayto get really close to someone and then subsequent scenes become much easier to make into either platonic or romantic. With LibDay, it really would take all of one new CG, removing the sex-scenes and a few different lines of dialouge to make those scenes with her become a bond more like a little sister - it probably wouldn't take much more effort to do the same with other characters.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 15:51:27 GMT -8
... I'm not sure you got what I mean. At all. I was saying that each game gives you a chance to romance someone if you haven't already. LibDay - you can romance Chigara. Abstain there and you can romance someone else in the next one. Abstain again and you can romance someone else in the following game and so-forth. I was advocating each chapter giving you the choice to pick one waifu and CHOOSE to either commit and make them the lover, or refuse and keep them friends/comrades from there-on out. NOT that you switch up every game (and in fact that's pretty much the atmosphere the original/current one inspires; jumping into a new romance right after the last one failed). Okay, that wasn't apparent by the small textparagraph I quoted, thanks for clarifying. I still think that's extremely suboptimal, I have two major problems with that suggestion. Firstly: Love in Space has to make an insane amount of side content. Example: Chapter 1: Eva Chapter 2: Sola Chapter 3: Icari Chapter 4: Asaga Chapter 1 would remain fairly simple. Eva route+ decline. Chapter 2: continue Eva route+ start Sola route + decline. Chapter 3. continue Eva route + continue Sola route + start Icari route + decline. Chapter 4: continue Eva route + continue Sola route + continue Icari route + start Asaga route + decline. Sorry man, that's not going to happen. Love in Space doesn't have the financial strength to pull that off. We're not talking about small differences here, every route you go/don't go has large impact on how you interact with your crew. (Additional CGs, tons of dialogue needs to be adjusted, voice acting etc.) Secondly: The girls that come in later get screwed over hard for obvious reasons. I'd prefer to have attention+sceentime distributed more evenly. Not really. Firstly: I really doubt every waifu is going to be a romance option anyway (Icari and Kryska seem pretty locked-in with each-other so far, though I may be wrong). Secondly, LibDay could have been re-worked to be where you do or don't lock-in with Chigara. And in all honesty, aside from the CG's, the most it amounts to is SOME dialouge changes in the end, and most of the romance-scenes specific to that character would be done in that chapter (example - they pretty much did all the Chigara-consumation stuff in LibDay so they wouldn't have needed to focus heavily on it in the future). If you spend a lot of time interacting with that character anyway, then pushing it into a romance really wouldn't need that much extra work - just like it wouldn't take much work to turn the Chigara-romance in LibDay into a more "surrogate sibling" love. Also, I'm saying that each chapter has the option to PERMANENTLY lock in with a character - you don't get access to anyone in latter chapters if you locked in with someone before had. Seems there was another miscommunication - I was advocating that once you pick someone in one chapter, you're locked with them and can't back out for a new one the next chapter; you're locked in once you pick them (just like in Academy). The only difference being that only one route is available to access per chapter, but you can't access it unless you abstained from picking a route in a previous chapter. So it would really be more like: Chapter 1(LibDay): Chigara route + Decline Chapter 2: (insert Waifu here)* + Decline Chapter 3: (insert Waifu here)* + Decline *You can only enter a new route if you're still single. Secondly: That's pretty much what already happened in LibDay, you know. At least this way there'd be actual narrative reason for focus on one character over the others - example; Sola seems to be the one who will have more spotlight attention next release, so having her route be the one possible to enter or decline next chapter would make more narrative sense.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 15:17:01 GMT -8
(Points to above statement) I never said it had to affect the story. And even Kinetic Novels give the illusion of choice - loving someone no matter what choice you make can be received more positively if you can decide how that love is shown. Illusion of choice. Hmmm.... That reminds me... A game that really mastered the illusion of choice well was Agarest Generation of War. Well, okay. You could say that was just a tjrpg. But there's romance and story in it! Where the illusion came in was, you could make your choices. You could romance whoever you want, 5 different times. But you always end up following the same story path? Yes, that's about the gist of what I meant would work for Sunrider - you could follow the same overall premise with the same story path no matter what, but just a bit of agency makes all the difference. Hell, a tjrpg-VN hybrid in is pretty close to what Sunrider was/is for the most part. Kayto growing to love Chigara - I don't think that would have been complained about so much if there was the ability to choose if it was sibling love or romance love.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 14:36:30 GMT -8
Really, simply stop. I can see where this started to degenerate and probably have my own opinions about it, but at this point everyone agrees that it simply there's no point continuing. Heck, Vaen's comparison to Mass Effect was a tad problematic from the beginning; Sunrider never had that much of a focus on choices and player identification. A lot of the problems come in fact that Shields is his own person and not simply our avatar. Really, Sunrider is a lot more VN-like than anything else (at least in its storyline). Like Nagashofchaos mentioned, a forced route in the common route was done in Princess Waltz, and while not exactly in the same way, a forced "route order" is extremely frequent in Visual Novels. It's a plot device that has flaws, but also some strong points if done right, the problem being that whether it's "done right" is only seen at the very end. It's no use arguing now with only a half-finished series. It's a whole sub-branch from Visual Novels. Kinetic Novels, where you have little to no choice/choices that do not impact the story path. There are quite a few of these now, they're growing in popularity. So, let opinions be opinions and let's leave it at that? (Points to above statement) I never said it had to affect the story. And even Kinetic Novels give the illusion of choice - loving someone no matter what choice you make can be received more positively if you can decide how that love is shown.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 14:30:57 GMT -8
Okay, I'll finish this here. I'm not denying your right to give feedback or even insist on the same thing continuously, but if you take a joke poking fun at that as "missing the point", then I've got nothing to do here. On our argument about Claude, I'll just tell you I disagree. Everything points to the technology on the level of basically a continuous-use wishall and time traveling to be even beyond normal Ryuvian Emperors, and everything related to Awakening seems to be even worse given the mystic connotations it seems to have in Ryuvia, but we don't even agree on the level and weight of Claude's powers, so I'll simply leave it here. Dude, it's the internet - intent is kinda hard to judge on these formats. Plus, when you go and say; See, that looks pretty cut-n'-dry. Where was there any indication that this was anything even close to a joke as opposed to an actual, serious, offhanded suggestion/recommendation out of not wanting to go on with it? You typically add something to clinch it's a joke - like an emoticon, maybe? And again with Claude, I point out that you're again overstepping what was known about the Traveler - the most we knew was that she was (A) a time-traveler and (B) a dimension-hopper. Not that she was pretty much an immortal psychic teleporter or the like. Regardless of the "level and weight" of Caude's powers, it still goes beyond what was hinted about the traveler.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 14:22:23 GMT -8
Really, simply stop. I can see where this started to degenerate and probably have my own opinions about it, but at this point everyone agrees that it simply there's no point continuing. Heck, Vaen's comparison to Mass Effect was a tad problematic from the beginning; Sunrider never had that much of a focus on choices and player identification. A lot of the problems come in fact that Shields is his own person and not simply our avatar. Really, Sunrider is a lot more VN-like than anything else (at least in its storyline). Like Nagashofchaos mentioned, a forced route in the common route was done in Princess Waltz, and while not exactly in the same way, a forced "route order" is extremely frequent in Visual Novels. It's a plot device that has flaws, but also some strong points if done right, the problem being that whether it's "done right" is only seen at the very end. It's no use arguing now with only a half-finished series. Um... you're really, really just completely contradicting yourself here. First - A VN-protagonist is BOTH his own person and our avatar because, while he often always has a general pre-set personality. there is STILL AN AMOUNT OF PLAYER AGENCY in what he chooses and why. What you're advocating isn't any more or less unique to any of the many, many other VN's that retain multiple-choice endings in spite of the protag having a set personality - in fact it actually makes what was done in LibDay stick out even worse by contrast. Nobody's against the common route having Kayto come to love Chigara - only that there's no choice between loving her like a girlfriend and loving her like a sibling, which in turn makes the idea of future romances awkward at best because it makes Kayto feel like, as Blackhead said in a different forum, like he's been pre-set to to a "circle jerk" if it stays like this. It's a necessary ILLUSION OF CHOICE - the very thing you advocated was a major part of what made Sunrider work.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 14:13:39 GMT -8
I'd actually suggested that a good way to do it was to have each chapter offer a different romance path - LibDay could be the chance for Chigara fans while the next one can be about Sola or Asaga, and the follow up could be Ava or even Claude and so-forth. Yeah there'd be a wait for the chapter with the waifu you want, but that probably would have been better received then a forced romance. No... please, No. From a storytelling perspective that's a god awful idea. I wasn't a fan of the Chigara romance either, but at least it served as a setup for the upcoming events. Having Kayto jump from girl to girl like a needy teenager isn't a solution. How is that even supposed to work? Do you want Samu to always come up with an excuse for Kayto switching love interests randomly every Chapter? Sunrider is, despite all of its cliches and humor still a story driven game, so please don't let this escalate to a circle jerk. Kayto has taken a strong emotional hit. I say, keep him relatively neutral for now. Maybe add a few short scenes inbetween with the girls Kayto has the highest affection with, respectively. Then let him decide once and for all when the story comes to conclusion. ... I'm not sure you got what I mean. At all. I was saying that each game gives you a chance to romance someone if you haven't already. LibDay - you can romance Chigara. Abstain there and you can romance someone else in the next one. Abstain again and you can romance someone else in the following game and so-forth. I was advocating each chapter giving you the choice to pick one waifu and CHOOSE to either commit and make them the lover, or refuse and keep them friends/comrades from there-on out. NOT that you switch up every game (and in fact that's pretty much the atmosphere the original/current one inspires; jumping into a new romance right after the last one failed).
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