|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 12:44:18 GMT -8
The problem is, as the game is unfinished, the other waifus options arent available, which led to a billion complaints. Ppl have no patience, especially when they are paying for it. As if all the H scenes in Sunrider academy wasnt enough! Like fox said: "players that want H scenes dont want obstacles to get it. Players that want a challenging game will just skip the H scenes. You cant make both happy in the same game" (or something like it). Wise words from a wise Fox *bows* ... As I alredy suggested before, you guys should make a "Sex in Space" studio to release titles for ppl interested in H and keep "LiS" for ppl that want a strategy game not really, if you are here just for strategy, then you arent forced to install adult mod, cough, H-scenes content restoration mod/patch. I'd actually suggested that a good way to do it was to have each chapter offer a different romance path - LibDay could be the chance for Chigara fans while the next one can be about Sola or Asaga, and the follow up could be Ava or even Claude and so-forth. Yeah there'd be a wait for the chapter with the waifu you want, but that probably would have been better received then a forced romance.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 11:47:06 GMT -8
I never stated romances were the bigger factor over all others - just that it was A big factor for a very large portion of the fanbase, which I estimated to be half. If factor A accounts for 50% of the total, and there are more than two factors involved, A is obviously larger than every other factor unless the second largest factor is also 50%. If the non-A 50% shows anything resembling an even split between the other factors, A is much larger than any other factor (2x as large for an even split of the remainder with N = 3, and this goes up as N gets bigger). This is basic arithmetic.If you meant something that does not require the sum to be 100%, e.g. "50% of Mass Effect players consider selectable romances to be one of the selling points of the game", then rephrase your original statement "roughly 50% of Mass Effect's selling points WAS multiple romances" to that and we can all finally go home. A misunderstanding; I meant to say I accepted that you said it was "a" point, not "the" point. Sorry. That's not how I imagine most people parse "key selling point". If it were the only selling point, most people would say "only". But even if the difference was as you describe; my point was: a lot of people talking about one aspect does not necessarily mean it is the largest aspect or even particularly large in terms of importance. "X is at best 50%" does not mean "my best guess is that X is 50%." The closest synonym to "at best" here is "at most". EDIT: Scrubbed most of my post because I really don't want to continue arguing about something that's already wholly off-topic and is ultimately really, completely pointless (and if Samu-kun or Vaendryl has to step in because of that, I'll be ashamed). If for some reason someone wants to see the original post, it's pastebinned below: Okay, no. I said I wanted to drop it and I mean it.
pastebin.com/[REDACTED]
First - Again, you're arguing factors that have no bearing on this. I said it was a factor that a lot of people - which I estimated to be "roughly 50%" - got the game for. That is and never was a statement that this specific element was superior to all others. There where honestly all of two things that were talked about on the forums as why they loved the game - Story and Romance - and I have been treating "Story" as what the other half loved most. So no - it's more like "A is equal to B" out of what was most spotlighted on the forums as "why people like this game". This is not arithmetic , so it has no place here. So no - I don't need to rephrase that statement based on the above - especially since your focusing on that is really, really sidetracking from why I even made it to begin with.
Second - Thank you. Now you see what I meant about misunderstandings likely being a big part in why this got so tangled(?). My original point was, again, that agency in romances is important to players but that it doesn't need to impact the main story to do that.
Third - If you phrase it as "THE key selling point", that's pretty much just another way for saying "the only selling point", or at least distinguishing it from a group. Saying "THE key selling point" implies it's the one aspect out of all others that the game is purchased for, ergo that it has sovereignty over all other points. Saying it's "A key selling point" implies it's one of many points and not necessarily superior to all others - it does not have sovereignty over all other elements. I'd never said it was "the largest" - the most you could ever say is that I said it was EQUAL in importance to the main story for people and that it was clearly observable among the core fan-base from the way, extent and frequency it was talked about. It was a comparison to how much people care about who their character gets together with - that choosing how those interactions go is pretty important to the player.
Fourth - You're arguing semantics here. "At best" and "At most" are the same thing - inferences from the most generous standpoint for a statistic. But I digress.
My point had and still is that when it comes to romance, the factor of "can I choose" matters more then whether or not it changes the main story, and that this was a key element to what made Mass Effect so attractive to its core fans. Sure, no-one's going to REFUSE if you offer love-paths that change the main story accordingly, but they'd be satisfied with just having the ability to pick who they get with. Pushing a "cannon romance", even if just as a casual fling, is typically something that's frowned upon not just for lacking agency but because it could almost be seen as disrespectful to even the very character you're forcing the romance with. I'm not exactly a Chigara fan but I do think she deserved better then to either be the "arbitrary rebound fling to get over the ex (Ava) or your own issues" or the "forced romance you feel obliged to continue because you now feel sorry for her" - it's like saying nobody would have picked her otherwise. Or, to use KnightOfXentar's example, it's like a bait-and-switch for the character who best works as a sibling - you tend to not want it to go that way unless it's your choice to (and I admit fully that this is how I PERSONALLY feel is what Chigara was left as, so as to avoid confusion).
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 11:16:29 GMT -8
Uhh someone reported this thread so here I am. I can't really tell what the bottom line is, and a lot of it seems off topic since it's about Bioware from what I can tell? I dunno why people are shouting over the internet. Please conduct your business in regular voices. No-one was shouting, last I checked. And the example was "people like agency in their romances regardless of if it affects the main plot or not." My example was that a very big aspect of BioWare's fans got Mass Effect and continued to play it for the waifus and the romance - it didn't have to alter the story to satisfy them. My point was that having how Kayto expressed love for Chigara be optional (love as a sibling or love as a girlfriend) would have given a satisfying agency to players without altering the story of LibDay in the slightest.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 11:10:36 GMT -8
Why reveal herself now, for one. How is this expected to be balanced in future installments for another, now that it's out, is the second. Third is how what she's done is even remotely possible on the scale she's done it. And again, Academy only ever pointed to there being rather obvious pieces of technology involved when it came to this - not the seemingly physical abilities Claude has displayed. "The Traveler" was hinted to being more like Sola - traveling through time - not a wandering God/deity/whatever the hell definition you seem to think she does or doesn't qualify for. Her having power to that extent comes across as both convenient and abrupt - or at least the way it was exposed.
She doesn't reveal herself. She tries to pass it as having a bullsh*t Lost technology and faking chigara's report because of being clumsy. And yet everyone believes her, because, hey, it's Claude.
And the Traveler was implied to be an another whole level: she knew the Ebon fleet was coming, had the power to travel across dimensions, was implied to be untouchable even for the prototypes and gave them both a piece of Lost technology so powerful even the ancient Ryuvinas feared and the technology to reach Awakening on their own. That's above what even Ryuvian royalty in the time of Sola had. It she had been a simple traveler I would have been the one to call it an ass pull. And, as I said before, she actually has never pulled out something impossible, simply what Ryuvian technology has already shown as possible, so it's actually easy to gauge her powers.
And how it will be balanced? Well, simply because she won't use her powers. As Sola said, Claude is as much an enemy as Alpha; her plan to solve everything would be to return Sola and Crow to their time and probably reset a timeline or two. Right now she's with the captain on the chance everything can be solved without her having to do anything She can't even use her non-dimensional traveling powers too much; as she explained, too much interference from time travel and paradoxes would cause that universe to simply disappear, and she's a time traveler after all.
And on your second paragraph, it's you who's missing the point. If you really want so much to talk about it, make a poll or thread only about it, nobody will stop you.
Having that at all is a bad sign - it begs the question of where she got it, why she didn't use it before, ect.
I don't see how the Traveler was ever implied to be "another whole level" as opposed to someone who had access to the tech/devices that Sola was subjected to. The Wishwall's existence proves that dimension-hopping wasn't something you really had to be on "another whole level" to have access to. Having lost technology, knowing about the Ebon Fleet and dimension-hopping on it's own - none of that really implies more then another Ryuvian from Sola's era with a cache of more-intact tech then Sola has, not... whatever you're trying to equate the Traveler to here. So no, that doesn't match the extent of the power Claude's displayed so far (telepathy for lack of a better word with Alpha, immortality/teleportation, seeming omnipotence, ect), and if anything I'm shocked you wouldn't say the complete opposite - because it's this power that feels like the asspull; the Traveler was implied to be a "traveler", not a "deity/God."
That seems unlikely since at least a few people, like Sola, suspect/know what she is now, and she already had to tap her abilities to escape Cera. It's really hard to believe she's not going to up and use/abuse her powers again given the circumstances.
And on the second paragraph... no, I think you're honestly just trying to avoid talking about it anymore. This is a community-feedback page - I gave feedback on something I'm still seeing people complain about on the Steam forums; forced romance killing their experience. That ties into "community feedback" pretty intimately, so I don't see how I "missed the point" in advocating the way Kayto express plot-required love for Chigara be determinate between "sibling" and "lover".
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 1:53:57 GMT -8
First - Thing is that I didn't know that much of the original caches were lost and already admitted that was my bad - I hadn't even visited the BioWare fourms since 2013. How the hell does that make me "bad at logic" as opposed to "misinformed/made an assumption"? The "bad at logic" bit refers to your attempt to use 13 polls and the romance subforum being shut down as evidence of selectable love interest being half the appeal of ME, not the part about not knowing the old forum was wiped. (I might also mentioned this post, but dragging up off-topic stuff from another forum seemed undesirable. I only mention it now to defend the personal assertion I made) One: The fact that there exist N of X polls about the topic, where X >> 2*N, is not evidence of the original "about 50%" assertion, which was what was originally being disputed. This has been explained repeatedly. Two: Your claim that the polls took place at the height of the ME3 ending debacle is almost totally false, and can readily be shown to be so. Ten of the 13 polls linked were created well before ME3 came out (the newest about 9.5 months before), as were a large majority of their comments — look at the dates. I'll assume you accidentally sorted by last comment instead of actual date. I don't know why you're harping on the quantitative point when I already conceded it for the sake of argument, but: 1) The Eurogamer article contains no claim that the toxic arguers were a majority of the active userbase (or that any attempt was made to quantify them to begin with), only that they were sufficiently numerous, active and concentrated to justify binning the entire subforum. If you disagree, quote text from that article stating otherwise. 2) If you're seriously going to advance the claim that the amount of news reporting on an issue has any real relationship to the number of people affected by the issue, I'm just going to facepalm. Yes. Yes you did. However, altering my post accordingly ("a major selling point" instead of "the key selling point") does not affect the fundamental point. You didn't say "at best". You said "roughly", which carries a greatly different connotation both generally and in the context of the post where it was used. I brought up saliency bias to show the logical fallacy involved in thinking that extensive discussion of romance in ME is strong evidence of it being a highly important selling point (50%, which is very large in any comparison with two candidates), as illustrated by your use of the number of polls and the fact that the romance subforum got binned as evidence of the 50% claim. If you object to me possibly implying you have saliency bias, simply retract the fallacious arguments, or at least acknowledge their limitations, and the implication will cease to apply to you. The phrase states that you are (presumed to be) relying on faulty perception, human perception being often faulty (hence the lengthy discussions of cognitive biases, eyewitness errors and the like.) It cannot be reasonably interpreted to say you are lying. Nor does it discuss whether or not you are admitting previous error, being concerned only with how the original error came about. If I think you're doing either of those things, I will specifically say so. "Willful" does imply more intent than I meant to impute, and for that I apologise. However, you are still claiming I accused you of lying prior to the post where I wrote the "willful misreading" phrase, and I contend there is no part of my posts prior to then that can be reasonably interpreted as making such an accusation. Again, if you disagree, quote the offending section. Is it naive of me to still be kind of off-put by the negativity and aggression found on internet forums? The beautiful thing about the internet is that we are all able to get together and communicate about things we care about with others from all across the world. With the added benefit of having all the world's knowledge at our finger tips at the same time to help spread information and ideas with one another. Could we perhaps take a step back and just take a breather for a bit? Its perfectly alright to have conflicting ideas and our own ways of going about expressing them, hell this conversion is bringing up some good points and it lets us see both sides of the argument in valid ways. Healthy competition breeds innovation and new ideas. But just trying to tear each other down doesn't really help anyone, and just ends with all sides feeling bitter and wronged. I'd be fine with this discussion going on, but it would be nice if we could all just take a moment to recompose ourselves and try to be respectful to one another. Things are a bit blunt/terse here, but even with the accusation of accusation of lying, I'd say it's actually far, far better than the Internet median. Still, you're right. First - I don't see how that even comes close. It was a sample-size from a point where the forums were dominated by ME3-ending controversy - an example that there were polls out there that had thousands of views and votes apiece even that late in the game when it had already been talked and debated to death. There were generally only two things that were talked about on the forums - plot and character-romance with the occasional philosophical debate cropping up (and being quickly canned because it got too toxic too quick).
Second - You're again arguing "N of X" when it's NOT even applicable here. I gave you a sample size of what was readily available out of 35,000 postings, not even counting the articles that were deleted wholesale. And you seem to have missed that each of these polls were active and still being debated on over a year after ME3's release in many cases. I'll in turn assume you didn't even bother to look at how long those comments/debates lasted and only glanced at the date-of-creation - so no, it's not in fact "almost totally false, and can readily be shown to be so." I'd actually say it's the complete opposite - proof that this wasn't something people let go easily.
Third - I'm "harping" on it BECAUSE you're regarding it as "quantitative". Eurogamer paid attention to that specific forum out of all the others that had been closed down for toxicity - potent enough for even a BioWare staffer to comment on it. That alone infers it was larger then the others - and please don't ask for such quotes because it'll just end with me pointing out you don't have any that support your own claim any more or less, ending it in an impasse.
Fourth - NO. No I did NOT. My original comment was "You DO know that roughly 50% of Mass Effect's selling points WAS multiple romances, right???" WHERE in that did I say "it's THE key selling point?" This is important because I want to make sure you're not doing what you accused me of; misreading posts. That way, I can make sure that's not the cause of this argument as opposed to differing beliefs. And yes, it does affect the fundamental point - it's the difference between saying "people only come for the romance" and "the romance is a big part of why people come". One definition implies sovereignty to that element over all others, the other does not.
Fifth - I know that; I was using a different paraphrasing to express the same thing a different way. "Roughly" assumes the best possible estimate, which in turn is inferred from the best numbers (or at least I used the best numbers). How can you argue this has a different connotation and yet try to argue "a" and "the" do not?
Sixth - Fans arguing that long and that intensely for their characters tends to breed that opinion. admiralcheese pointed out it was a key element in what made the core fanbase love the series so much. Continuing romances was a key selling point for fans of the past games, which made up a big portion of ME2 and ME3's subsequent sales. The number of polls I showed illustrated how long-lasting these debates could be and that they could crop up even very late in the game. So no - Saliency bias is trying to infer a specific element has sovereignty over all others simply because it's talked about more (example - Samu-Kun with Sunrider's combat system). I never stated romances were the bigger factor over all others - just that it was A big factor for a very large portion of the fanbase, which I estimated to be half. So, by your own cited example, the fact that I never proclaimed for romances to have supremacy over all elements means I do not fall under saliency bias - so what was fallacious NOT my arguments but rather your trying to label that bias to me.
Seventh - Ignoring logic/"seeing what you want to see" is generally regarded as a form of lying because it's the same as willing ignorance of stated facts. Repeatedly inferring that I'm relying on faulty perception is the same as saying I'm choosing not to abide by logic if I stick to those beliefs for any reason - ergo, "willing ignorance of stated facts". At best it translates to unwitting misrepresentation, at worst it translates to knowing misrepresentation (the later otherwise known as "lying"). Saying "typically fallible human perceptions at work" not only implies that you saw my beliefs and very ability to perceive them as faulty, but effectively implied that if I continued to advocate them that I'd be flying in the face of logic - ergo, LYING. Call it an extreme generalization, but it's what I took from it at the end of the day.
Eighth - That's just it, though; you've done that all throughout. What you said before - implying my perceptions and their resultant beliefs were "faulty" - is the same as saying that I'd have to be denying logic/lying/misrepresenting to keep supporting them (or at least that's how I took it). And sorry if I blew up at you for it - if there's one thing that peeves me, it's someone arbitrarily stating things like that.
Back to the original point - the reason I said you were arguing semantics in the beginning was because you were devoting all your time and effort to hounding me over the details of the ME3 example I used as opposed to WHY and WHAT that example was even meant to illustrate for LibDay; that having agency in a romance choice is important to people regardless of if it affects the main-story's plot. My point - my ORIGINAL one - was that the method our dear Kayto Shields loved Chigara Ashada could have been determinable between "girlfriend" and "sister" and it wouldn't have affected the path of the main plot, and it's getting progressively more lost in translation because of this debate over my estimate for ME3 being precise or not.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 12, 2016 0:33:34 GMT -8
Is it naive of me to still be kind of off-put by the negativity and aggression found on internet forums? The beautiful thing about the internet is that we are all able to get together and communicate about things we care about with others from all across the world. With the added benefit of having all the world's knowledge at our finger tips at the same time to help spread information and ideas with one another. Could we perhaps take a step back and just take a breather for a bit? Its perfectly alright to have conflicting ideas and our own ways of going about expressing them, hell this conversion is bringing up some good points and it lets us see both sides of the argument in valid ways. Healthy competition breeds innovation and new ideas. But just trying to tear each other down doesn't really help anyone, and just ends with all sides feeling bitter and wronged. I'd be fine with this discussion going on, but it would be nice if we could all just take a moment to recompose ourselves and try to be respectful to one another. I wouldn't be able to answer that, since IDK if it's that you're naive or that I'm jaded (or maybe both for all I know). Thing is, I wasn't trying to tear anyone down - it felt more like he was the one doing that (saying I don't get logic/have logical arguments, was misinformed at best and misrepresenting/lying at worst, then in the next post said had a bias, was deliberately misreading posts, ect.), and that's where I draw the line and take it somewhat personally. I've been patient so far - pointed out where I was wrong, pointed out where I think he was wrong, done my best to clarify any misunderstandings I might have caused and so-forth, and I've not once said he lied or had a bias or any of the like. So yes, I'm all for respectful debate - so long as it stays that way.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 11, 2016 23:49:06 GMT -8
UGH. First: If you (and admiralcheese) say there were waifu threads running into the thousands of pages (that were lost when the Bioware forums were moved, although whether they were or not doesn't really matter for this purpose), I believe you, and accept this as sufficient evidence to make the claim sufficiently plausible that it need not be singled out. I think you should have stated this from the beginning, but here it is now. Now as for the rest: I'm sorry about you feeling bitter (I have my own adverse reactions to even relatively mild Internet arguments), but at some point I also have to say that you're being really bad at logic. Like admiralcheese pointed out, there are TWO different sites - one is the older forum. Another REALLY big flaw in your argument - "at the time of writing". See, at the time of writing (which is right now), the current BioWare fourms website is a completely different one from the original. Most of the many debates, polls and ect were flushed when the new site changed - granted, I wasn't aware of that at the time of the last post, so that mix-up's on me - but there are at least a few archives. I only posted what I found and said it did not obviously demonstrate your point. Sure: honest mistake, no-one is to blame, etc., etc. and I don't want to harp on this. But I submit that if I have to dig up stuff from a now-defunct forum, it is not "CLEARLY VISIBLE" from "a cursory glance". There are 14 polls in that list. The last one is a Dragon Age poll, so that leaves 13. Assuming a random sample*, the fact that 13 out of 100 polls are about romance in ME (mostly "which LI is your favorite?" or "do you want same-sex relationships in ME?") is not evidence that about half of the series' appeal is due to romance (or more specifically, being able to choose your romantic interest). Or a third, or even a quarter. Using it as evidence for 13% is already a stretch in itself. The fact that I need to explain this is an indicator of a huge problem in this discussion. The only two of the linked polls that directly substantiate the claim are this and this. *How did you search anyway? There's no poll search function on BSN that I can see. Google site search would make sense but I'd need to know the search terms, and how did the DA poll get in then? (I'm also wondering: why are the poll numbers so disparate?) Which shows that there's a subset of ME fans who feel strongly about their LIs to the point where they're willing/motivated/such to indulge in forum toxicity over it. It says nothing about how big this subset actually was. Fine, let's say it's big (maybe even a majority of the overall fanbase). This is still not the same as proving (using the informal definition of the word) that anywhere near half of ME's appeal is due to selectable romance options, although it does serve as evidence; it certainly suggests to me that the claim is more likely to be true. Reiterating the main point: The fact that people are talking a lot about aspect A of item X does not prove that A is the key selling point of X. That is sheer saliency bias. ( Isn't this the exact same mistake Samu-kun made?) If you feel insulted, I'm sorry; all I can do is plead lack of intent. But at no point did I "pretty much call [you] a liar" (at the very least not in any sense implying malice); in fact, my wording was specifically selected to avoid any implication of deliberate falsehood, or implication that the issues behind any false statements you may have made are specific to you personally. In fact, I'd say that the only way you can claim otherwise is through a willful misreading of my post(s). First - Thing is that I didn't know that much of the original caches were lost and already admitted that was my bad - I hadn't even visited the BioWare fourms since 2013. How the hell does that make me "bad at logic" as opposed to "misinformed/made an assumption"?
Second - What I gave you is an EXAMPLE, and only out of the most recent polls that were active prior to the old site being shut down. It was to show you just how many, many, MANY people (thousands at any one time) cared about this to the point they would regularly open debates, and the only reason it was "13 out of 100" was because it was during the blow-up over ME3's ending. 13 out of the first hundred from 35,000 (and taken from a sample where romance was generally the last thing most would have been thinking of on the back of ME3's ending) is a small fraction of it. This isn't even a quarter of what I saw - it was just an example.
Third - I googled the polls. No real poll-search function properly exists anymore, or at least not for the old forums-site. The old site is all but defunct outside of cashes, so there's no organization to any of it anymore - and I gave a LINK to the only archive left, which has them all massed together.
Fourth - "Subset?" It was apparently the majority of the active fanbase if that article was any indication. And again, I point you to the defunct link in that article - the one where what was once a thousand pages was wiped clean because it was deemed too toxic to continue. Again, me and admiralcheese saw this stuff - it numbered in the thousands. You can believe it or not but in the end, if it was big enough that a website-news article felt it substantial enough to report on it (and it was hardly the first thread that was shut down, believe you me - just one of the largest) then you can't deny it had to have been a sizable subset.
Fifth - See, this is another mix-up; I never said it was THE selling point. I said it was A selling point. That in games like this, love/romance often matters as much to the players as story and having agency in that, even if it doesn't affect the main story's outcome, is important to have. So please don't accuse me of a bias I don't have since, counter to your example, I DIDN'T say it was the only thing people wanted - I said it was equal/50% at best, and even noted that I might have been overestimating to boot, so how the hell you can say "bias" is beyond me. And yes, saliency bias is same mistake Samu-Kun made - hence why I was arguing in the first place why having the whole "choose how Chigara is loved; sister or girlfriend" choice added in was something I thought would fix any lingering issues people had with the story.
Sixth - Again, "Typically fallible human perceptions at work" - that came across as saying I was lying at worst or wrong and not admitting it at best. Saying "willful misreading of posts" is THE SAME THING as saying I'm misrepresenting it on purpose/lying about it, and it's what you were pretty much accusing me of before. Add to that things like the above bias accusation and... well, you might want to re-think your approach if you thought those words represented your stated intent.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 11, 2016 21:54:09 GMT -8
Considering that these figures/proportions are CLEARLY VISIBLE just by visiting BioWare fourms, it does kinda equate to semantics just by taking even a cursory glance there. It's hard to say it's "an illusion of far greater strength than it actually possesses" when the numbers are not only real but publicly viewable. Okay, I said I was going to drop it, but now you've gone and done it: At the time of writing: Mass Effect 3 Story, Campaign and Characters subforumSorting threads by most recent post: 3 of the first 30 threads are specifically about romance (one of which is about a romance between two NPCs). There are 7 character threads (Garrus, Miranda, Liara, Traynor, Kaidan, Vega), with an unspecified proportion of posts being about romance. (Yeah, I didn't count... are you going to do it?) Sorting threads by most replies (excluding locked threads): 1 of the first 30 threads is specifically about romance. There are 12 character threads (Miranda, Kaidan, Liara, Ashley, Garrus, Jack, Javik, Traynor, Cortez, Kasumi, Samara, Jacob). Three of those characters are not romancable. Mass Effect 3 General Discussion subforumSorting threads by most recent post: 2 of the first 30 threads are specifically about romance (one of which is about a romance between two NPCs). Sorting threads by most replies (excluding locked threads): 0 of the first 30 threads are specifically about romance.
As for polls, a brief search turned up only this: Your Interests in ME3 ( original thread for context) - Single Player Story: Overall Plot - 43%
- Single Player Story: Characters and backstories - 41%
- Single Player Gameplay: "Romance" - 7%
It's not clear how much people mean "romance" by the "characters and backstories" part, but even if we count it as 3/4th romance (hugely generous) that still doesn't add up to even 40%. So no, it is not in the least bit "CLEARLY VISIBLE" from "a cursory glance" that picking your romance made up half of Mass Effect's appeals, and the only "real" and "publicly viewable" numbers similarly fail to support this contention. You said there were polls; go on, post one, it'd end the discussion in short order. Until then, I have no reason to think this is anything other than typically fallible human perceptions at work. EDIT: missed this earlier: People liking the development of characters who happen to be involved in romances != people liking the romances. Conflating the two is not helpful. Sorry - I think you might have "gone and done it" yourself. Namely that you've gone off on a tangent for what's actually the wrong place to look. Like admiralcheese pointed out, there are TWO different sites - one is the older forum, and on the older forum, there were "waifu wars" that make the ones here look small. Another REALLY big flaw in your argument - "at the time of writing". See, at the time of writing (which is right now), the current BioWare fourms website is a completely different one from the original. Most of the many debates, polls and ect were flushed when the new site changed - granted, I wasn't aware of that at the time of the last post, so that mix-up's on me - but there are at least a few archives. Point of fact being - what you're seeing there? It's not even a fraction of what I saw back in 2012 on the original forums site when the game and everything about it was still fresh for debate. I was there when every day people were talking about Mass Effect the same as how people here were/are talking about Sunrider waifus in the here and now. And here would be the best archive I can find, though sadly there's no real way to organize it anymore and most of the latter stuff is about the ME3 Endings. social.bioware.com/browse_polls.php?s=poll_datecreated%20DESC&v=0&p=2Also, these would be the most intact romance-polls I can find so far from the old fourm's cache (and this is just in the first hundred results out of over 35,000, dating back only to the most recent game - Mass Effect 3 - and yet this many debates pop up at a time when the endings were so hotly debated. So... yeah - what the hell were you saying about it not being CLEARLY VISIBLE from a cursory glance?): social.bioware.com/1810293/polls/5439/social.bioware.com/110/polls/1358/social.bioware.com/892908/polls/1975/social.bioware.com/980362/polls/3585/social.bioware.com/3225189/polls/31259/social.bioware.com/1639775/polls/4933/social.bioware.com/700/polls/1994/social.bioware.com/892908/polls/2681/social.bioware.com/50746/polls/2237/social.bioware.com/1724485/polls/20089/social.bioware.com/3757925/polls/36026/social.bioware.com/3757925/polls/36022/social.bioware.com/566323/polls/8535/social.bioware.com/21532/polls/593/And further proof - debate of the waifus in Mass Effect got so intense that BioWare itself AXED AN ENTIRE SECTION, shutting it down and wiping all comments - www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-01-10-biowares-increasingly-toxic-forum-repels-dragon-age-writer-david-gaiderSo... yeah. 'Bout that whole " typically fallible human perceptions at work" bit? Congratulations - you've actually gone and insulted me, and I try not to let people do that. But when you pretty much call me a liar about this stuff... well, that's the limit. So sorry if I sound bitter in this - it's probably because I am a bit right now. But anyway... the point here is that waifus and the ability to choose one, regardless of if it affects the final outcome of the story, really does matter to the player a lot more then you might think, and that having the ability to choose - or even just "illusion of choice" as Marx had put it - can make all the difference in enjoying the narrative.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 11, 2016 21:38:04 GMT -8
To be fair the waifu talk in ME was much more prevalent in the old forum. Especially before the 3rd game. Some of the waifu threads reached tens of thousands of pages. Thank you - yes, IDK if Histindine was aware but the original forums had "waifu wars" in abundance - many of which I was actually there to witness first-hand. Granted, I wasn't aware the caches containing much of the old stuff was flushed, so that's my failing.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 11, 2016 18:03:11 GMT -8
Or, to be frank - I think you're pressing me on basically amounts to semantics. I don't consider people posting figures/proportions of no clear provenance to be "semantics."
"Made-up figures, like made-up quotes, serve to give an argument an illusion of far greater strength than it actually possesses." - Baruch Spinoza But this was tangential from the beginning, so I'll just drop it here. Considering that these figures/proportions are CLEARLY VISIBLE just by visiting BioWare fourms, it does kinda equate to semantics just by taking even a cursory glance there. It's hard to say it's "an illusion of far greater strength than it actually possesses" when the numbers are not only real but publicly viewable. It wasn't tangential since it was part of my point - namely that having a degree of agency in a story can make all the difference for player enjoyment, even if the ultimate or penultimate endings aren't affected by who you did or didn't choose to romance.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 11, 2016 17:34:22 GMT -8
I'll admit that this might well be obvious to me if I'd actually frequented the forums (presumably the official Bioware ones). But even if we assume the official forums are representative of the customer base*, deriving "about 50%" (half!)** from "big reasons" requires more logical steps than have actually been provided. Or, to make my point as clear as possible: How was this ballpark figure determined, beyond an "intuitive" guess? *I say "customer base" as opposed to "fan base" based on a straightforward interpretation of "selling point." If this were altered, there would be less question of the official forum activity representing the base, but the overall problem still remains.
**What, does this mean about 25% goes to non-romance story elements, and the remaining 25% to the gameplay? Is there still room for graphics, soundtrack, etc.? Inquiring minds want to know!Polls, fan-threads and first-hand experience. Granted, 50% might be an over-estimate, but it's an understandable one considering that the characters involved in those romances - the interactions, the evolution, ect - were things that were widely panned and damn-near unanimously declared the reason so many loved the game. Or, to be frank - I think you're pressing me on basically amounts to semantics.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 11, 2016 17:31:12 GMT -8
(P.S. - BTW, what the hell was that last time? Why'd you say I attacked Wooly or something?) My best guess would be that he confused you with GeonteneArgon00 from the "The Legion - which choice fits better?" thread. Ah. Okay... though I'd have to ask how that mix-up even happened.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 11, 2016 13:26:47 GMT -8
You obviously never frequented the game's forums. ...yeah. Chris banned me permanently for posting too much Gamer Poop. Long story short - romances, the many different options and continuing them all were big reasons people liked the games.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 11, 2016 12:57:18 GMT -8
Romances were a small part of the story. They couldn't have been such a significant selling point. ... Well, unless that woman from the Extended Cut presentation ("Thank you soooo much for that last moment with Kaidan!!!") is representative of some 90% of the fan base. You obviously never frequented the game's forums.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 11, 2016 12:13:32 GMT -8
The thing with that bit about the forced romance, though: The crazy part is that there didn't HAVE to be any other romances; just the option to bypass this one. They could have endorsed each chapter of the game being a separate chance to lock-in with a specific waifu; first chapter can lock in Chigara - abstain from that and you get a different girl in the second - abstain both times and you can get a different girl in the third, ect. Making it possible to opt out of a rather hamfisted romance with Chigara didn't mean they had to add new ones into this part of the series.
There is very, VERY little that would need to be changed to make the relationship with Chigara switchable between platonic and romantic - the only major thing I could think of, in hindsight, would be making a new CG where Kayto hugs Chigara back to her senses instead of kissing her, but aside from that it would only take a few extra lines of dialouge here and there and you'd have a working alternate where Chigara is more the sister-figure instead of the lover. But having the CHOICE to romance "this chapter's star waifu" and implementing that system for future installments would be both very easy and take pressure off by axing the need to have like five routes in the final installment or the like. There is literally nothing about Kayto's supportive emotional bond with Chigara that needs them to be lovers in order to work - it functions both ways.
No. Um... you're gonna have to be more specific, dude. 'specially in light of the forced-romance having been the thing complained about as much as the original ending was. Short version - No yourself. (P.S. - BTW, what the hell was that last time? Why'd you say I attacked Wooly or something?)
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 11, 2016 12:11:41 GMT -8
Two brief thoughts on implications of removing the railroad romance: Chigara not in fact being romantically involved with Kayto would make Asaga in her jealousy arc look really ridiculous (even more so than she already does, I mean).
If we had an unlimited rewrite budget, perhaps we could ditch the whole romantic jealousy thing ("who even says things like 'V card'?!") and just focus on Sharr'saga's fear that Chigara is a Prototype and a traitor. I'd have thought Asaga would have already given Kayto up romantically by the time of the beach episode back at the start of MoA anyway (seeing as how she goes along with the "get the Captain and Chigara together" thing). Although then the part where she turns hostile seems really irrational (it already is, but jealousy is supposed to be irrational).
Hug Chigara? Kiss Chigara? Bah.
Just have Alice admit she's mindjacking Chigara (since she's doing all that villainous boasting anyway) and let Kayto decide: shoot her, or try to talk her out of it? If you pick the latter, Fontana comes in mid way and does the Renegade Interrupt for you. Chigara can even break free of the control (something something trauma) and say one last thing to Kayto before she dies.
Yes, I like taking things I like and making them Darker and Edgier than they need to be (ask me about my idea for a Valkyria Chronicles sequel sometime), why do you ask? I don't see how. I really don't - Chigara's still the closest person to him on the crew. Kayto shares his personal issues with her. He has her in his cabin all the time. Giving anyone that kind of specific attention, REGARDLESS of it being romantic or not, wouldn't make Asaga's jealousy look any more or less ridiculous. Add that to her 'Sharr' mentality seeming to splinter her mind and Asaga making paranoid assumptions isn't that far of a stretch at all - they just wouldn't be right this time. Kayto loving Chigara too much to see the danger she represents isn't a problem at all - it works narratively and it doesn't need to be removed; it just needs the choice to express it as sibling love instead of romantic love and give it just enough "illusion of choice" to not make people feel like it's a forced love-story. And with the beach thing, Icari kinda threw her under the bus to say something to Chigara - either she betrays her best friend or betrays her own heart; that was where the bitterness first started. That sounds nice, but at the same time I think the best way to have shown how strong the bond between Kayto and Chigara was to have his actions break Alice's hold on her (I mean, it's already pretty obvious from the way she talks who it is controlling her). Though I'd totally spring for your idea too if I believed it could be made.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 11, 2016 12:02:02 GMT -8
Not from what we saw so far. If those powers stem from physically-ingrained abilities (implanted or otherwise), it's practically the same as being an artificial Q - she still fits the distinction of "God" more then "Time Lord" so far. All those things you mentioned required rather complex, intricate or even large-scale components to make work - doing it all on her own; that's about as close to the definition of "God" as you can get. The only thing she'd need do to seal it is breathe life into clay bodies. Again, I used that term because those things (omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence) DO seem to fit her at the moment given her actions, and until the magician's tricks are explained as otherwise, Sola's distinction hardly seems undeserved.
... I can't tell if you missed the point I was making or not - I was saying that it shouldn't have been railroaded. You toted the "illusion of choice" being an important reason why the galaxy and ship maps returning was good - I feel the same should be applied regarding Kayto's love for Chigara; giving it a distinction between "romance love" and "sibling love" would have made the railroad love more tolerable because you have some degree of agency. Kayto and Chigara would still have the same deep-rooted bond of love that serves as a plot-point for LD - you'd just choose how it's expressed, Chigara the girlfriend or Chigara the sister. The outcome could be the same both ways, but I doubt there'd be complaints because the player would have felt there was some direction in things - and coupled with the new endings, it would rectify the entirety of the issues people had with the current section of story. Well, I see the distinction as important, but if you think those powers already define "God", then where are the "plot-holes" and problems with it? And what part doesn't fit what we saw in Academia? She's just basically the apex of what Ryuvian Emperor tried to do for millennia. Where's the problem in one of them actually succeeding? She simply decided that she didn't want to be an emperor or venerated or anything like that, and used her powers to just have fun (because that's clearly what Claude is aiming for, besides the whole "saving the universe" things).
And the railroading thing was a joke aimed at you repeating "railroaded romance" like that. Yeah, as I said before, we get it, you have said it I think 6 times now and people have already told you what they thought.
Why reveal herself now, for one. How is this expected to be balanced in future installments for another, now that it's out, is the second. Third is how what she's done is even remotely possible on the scale she's done it. And again, Academy only ever pointed to there being rather obvious pieces of technology involved when it came to this - not the seemingly physical abilities Claude has displayed. "The Traveler" was hinted to being more like Sola - traveling through time - not a wandering God/deity/whatever the hell definition you seem to think she does or doesn't qualify for. Her having power to that extent comes across as both convenient and abrupt - or at least the way it was exposed. And yet people still somehow keep misunderstanding me entirely. They seem to think I'm asking for it to be axed entirely. It was simply asking to have there be a choice in HOW Kayto loved Chigara. Hell, I go to the Steam page and I STILL see people asking that this one element be fixed - that it's STILL tripping up their experience even with the post-endgame stuff. That it's just, to quote one of the commenters, "a painfully forced fling". Making it optional... it really wouldn't be hard, nor would it affect the plot. And it seems like a lot of people would approve/appreciate it.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 11, 2016 11:54:38 GMT -8
Okay, rather tangential, but this was bothering me: You DO know that roughly 50% [citation needed] of Mass Effect's selling points WAS multiple romances, right??? ?
I don't get the point you're trying to make.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 11, 2016 2:37:39 GMT -8
Um, I don't recall Academy ever implying that dimension traveling was the result of divine or near-divine powers. In fact I'm pretty sure we were only ever shown it as being the product of technology, which would have hinted Claude having something more along the lines of a TARDIS, not physical cosmic superpowers. And I'm using the word "God" because the boot honestly fits given what we've just seen her do.
And that's just it - I'm not entirely against the "railroad romance". I'm against it not being optional, which is extremely easy to fix. I have no issue with it being the only romance available this time around - it's that Kayto's bond with Chigara has nothing that makes it work any more or less as a platonic-sibling bond then it does as a romantic-lover bond. A few extra lines of dialouge and maybe one single CG could fix the entirety of the remaining story complaints regarding that. Hell, make it a selling point for each game - romance Chigara in chapter one, abstain from that and you can romance someone else in chapter two, abstain both times and you can romance someone else in chapter three, ect. It would also take pressure off by axing the need to make five separate routes for the final game or whatever if you split the available routes between each chapter. Well, Clarke's third law, duh. It's pretty obvious Claude's powers come from technology, she seems to at least have been born as a human; all the she gives the prototypes is technology in fact. And, again, it's pretty obvious the Ryuvians basically venerate technology: genetic engineering? A power exclusive to royalty which is "blasphemous" when used by somebody who shouldn't. A gem programmed to recognize a certain bloodline? A royal treasure passed through generations. An overly powerful mighty weapon? A secret relic which requires a royal sacrifice to activate. The administrator rights of that most powerful technology and having that said genetic engineering? The mandate to rule over the Galaxy and be venerated as God.
And really, Claude has never done anything beyond what we know Lost Technology does. Moving through dimensions? The wishall. Time travel? The engine that Crow mentioned. Teleportation? Short range warp. Miniaturization powerful enough and she can do all of that without seeming like she's carrying anything (nanomachines, everyone?) Really, the only odd thing is her immortality, and that's literally her distinguishing feature; she's basically achieved what during all this years the Ryuvian emperor failed to do. That's why Sola referred to her as a god.
I personally don't like the term that much, because it seems related with omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence, which is something she clearly doesn't have. I like more "deity", because it bring to mind polytheistic religions with their gods with more limited powers. But really, she's basically a more powerful "The Doctor" with boobs.
Also, a railroaded romance is not optional. It's there, in "railroaded" (there's a reason "railroaded" is normally a pejorative term).
Not from what we saw so far. If those powers stem from physically-ingrained abilities (implanted or otherwise), it's practically the same as being an artificial Q - she still fits the distinction of "God" more then "Time Lord" so far. All those things you mentioned required rather complex, intricate or even large-scale components to make work - doing it all on her own; that's about as close to the definition of "God" as you can get. The only thing she'd need do to seal it is breathe life into clay bodies. Again, I used that term because those things (omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence) DO seem to fit her at the moment given her actions, and until the magician's tricks are explained as otherwise, Sola's distinction hardly seems undeserved. ... I can't tell if you missed the point I was making or not - I was saying that it shouldn't have been railroaded. You toted the "illusion of choice" being an important reason why the galaxy and ship maps returning was good - I feel the same should be applied regarding Kayto's love for Chigara; giving it a distinction between "romance love" and "sibling love" would have made the railroad love more tolerable because you have some degree of agency. Kayto and Chigara would still have the same deep-rooted bond of love that serves as a plot-point for LD - you'd just choose how it's expressed, Chigara the girlfriend or Chigara the sister. The outcome could be the same both ways, but I doubt there'd be complaints because the player would have felt there was some direction in things - and coupled with the new endings, it would rectify the entirety of the issues people had with the current section of story.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 10, 2016 23:32:38 GMT -8
Thing is - it's pretty widely been taken as BAD plot development, and it's plot development that can still happen REGARDLESS of if it's a romantic or platonic relationship. I have seen the Veniczar novel - and it has no bearing at all on what I said. I think its more about Chigara's willpower against Alice, bolstered by Kayto's pleading and reinforcing her - it's how Kayto affects and reawakens CHIGARA, and changing the way he did it wouldn't open a plot hole in the absolute slightest. I believe that kiss makes more of a dent in Alice than in Chigara, allowing Chigara to free herself for a moment and fight Alice because of it. Normally Alice would had too much control over Chigara. And if you consider that, it's fairly impossible for Shield to shake off Alice by simply hugging Chigara, she needs something more powerful and her love she developed for Arcadius is a perfect spot. I disagree for the fact that, again, it looks more about Chigara's will overpowering Alice's. That's more of a triumph for her character over her "sister" narratively - that she had the strength to overcome Alice because she didn't shun human companionship like Alice did. And once again, I do think a hug would have done it as much as a kiss because, again, I don't think Chigara is that shallow a character - Kayto proclaiming he cares about Chigara as family (or even loves her as family) would have been just as powerful. Him holding her close, head resting on hers, would be a mirror to when he first poured his heart out to her before Helion - that he trusted her to be unguarded with. Alice would be dented either way by Chigara's own love for Kayto, which I don't think changes or would have changed regardless of how Kayto saw her. Kayto and Chigara have already connected to the point that I don't think it matters if the love between them is platonic or romantic - it's a strong enough bond on it's own to push Alice back by then.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 10, 2016 22:58:58 GMT -8
It's very clear by now how you feel about Kayto hooking up with Chigara, but part of what V2.0 did was make clear this didn't count as a 'girl route' but part of the common route. It has to happen for things to play out the way they did. Its required by the overall plot, which will surely become more obvious as more of the story is revealed. A platonic relationship doesn't cut it. If it was and the results were in fact the same it wouldnt even be a choice anyway, which will have people complain about that instead. I get that you don't like this part of the story but it's nowhere near as "locked in" as you say. It's quite over by the end if you choose it. In a sense, the player only really gains agency over waifu choice at this point, and yes, I understand you wanted that agency much earlier, but the author chose plot over instant waifu gratification. I think the story is better off that way in the long run, but we can bicker that point till the suns burn out. Disclaimer: my views do not represent those of Love in Space or anyone else. Okay - RANT/TANGENT incoming. I don't think it's clear at all, since everyone assumes I'm against it and don't like it. Once again, I'M NOT and I DO - what I'm against is there being no choice in the matter. It's been used as an example before, but Mass Effect (the first and second ones at least) showed that a romance didn't have to change the "common route" - that all paths could have the same end and everyone could still approve of it. And again, the issue with your statement is that I haven't seen ANY reason that it "has to happen" like that - how does being able to choose whether Kayto loves Chigara as a sister or a girlfriend change the "Kayto's love for Chigara and trust in her betrayed him" plot at all? And again, I point you to the literal crap-ton of people who said it WOULD have cut it - that this was the single biggest flaw in LD aside from the ending (which is now fixed). To say "If it was and the results were in fact the same it wouldnt even be a choice anyway, which will have people complain about that instead" - just stop and look at that statement you wrote. if that were anywhere near true - if people complain about having something that just leads to the same outcome - then why did they want the galaxy & ship maps back?? Say what you want about me overstepping bounds, but I don't think plot required Kayto to love Chigara as a girlfriend as opposed to a sister/that it couldn't have worked either way - just that a bond of love exists, and the absence of Maray and Chigara filling that gap would have made a platonic relationship "cut it" just as much. Kayto still comes to love her deeply so it still would have the same amount of impact - it's just expressed differently, and, if the reviews are any indication, that distinction (or as Marx put it, "the illusion of choice") matters a lot to your fanbase. If it didn't, they wouldn't have complained about it. Hell, I'm not even asking there be options to romance anyone else at this point (and even endorse a "one romance possibility per game/chapter" plan) - just that you can choose how the Chigara relationship was played out. How the hell is that "instant waifu gratification?" I really think nobody would have complained (or not to the level you're trying to paint it) about Chigara being the only person Kayto expressed love for in LibDay if there'd only been the choice to determine HOW/IN WHAT WAY Kayto loved her - you could have the outcome be the same and they wouldn't be upset because they'd have had agency in how the journey to that point took place. Especially not in conjunction with the endgame extensions you already did.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 10, 2016 22:20:24 GMT -8
He said that while that he likes the return of the map, I don't recall him saying that the "illusion of choice" was really maintained here. If that was wrong, then sorry. But I said the opposite of you because, unlike the prior games, it really doesn't feel like that "illusion" is there like in the past games - absence of dialouge choices and RPG conversation menus when talking to characters and the like make it feel more a gimmick then a functional element. My point was - it's an illusion but a very important one and the one that player actually asked about and waited for. Personally, i actually like it - can't really explain it as i know it doesn't add much, but i just like how it interrupts linear story for a moment. And yes, while it doesn't carry nearly the same power as in MoA - it's still something important. Chigara romance is there for a plot development, not as real romance - especially given we see only like... one CG of 'that'? Answering the question about hugging Chigara to interrupt Alice mindstream control instead of kissing her - personally i would consider it a plot-hole - please refer to Veniczar novel (actually, now V2.0 hints it too) to understand better how Alice thinks - i don't think hugging would suit it. Also i would imagine the romance was there because love it's one of the strongest emotions - something worth fighting for that anyone can understand when playing game and we need something like that to give Chigara that something to fight about and actually break free from being completely controller - again i personally think that a friendship relation with Shields wouldn't be enough or it would be stretching it way too far in a convenient way. It's also something to shake off Shields rather strong - again i imagine sole friendship wouldn't be enough for that. Oh, and as to calling Claude 'god' - try thinking about her more as a Star Trek's Q - she fits that role pretty well in my opinion and from point of view of someone like Sola - she is literally god (as much as she is for a monkey). Thing is - it's pretty widely been taken as BAD plot development, and it's plot development that can still happen REGARDLESS of if it's a romantic or platonic relationship. I have seen the Veniczar novel - and it has no bearing at all on what I said. I think its more about Chigara's willpower against Alice, bolstered by Kayto's pleading and reinforcing her - it's how Kayto affects and reawakens CHIGARA, and changing the way he did it wouldn't open a plot hole in the absolute slightest.
See, the thing about that is that 'love' takes many different forms - if we're honest, the entire crew of the Sunrider pretty much loves each-other without doing so in a romantic sense, or at least that's the case with most of the girls towards each-other. IDK why or how everyone so completely misunderstands this, but I am NOT and NEVER WAS asking for Kayto to not 'love' Chigara - only that there be a choice between loving her like a girlfriend/wife and loving her like a sibling/adoptive family, with the in-game explanation being that Chigara's filled the void where Maray was as Kayto's support (the best she can at least). Might be personal belief speaking, but I really don't think Chigara's so shallow as to NEED Kayto to be banging her for his words to reach her - just that he cares about her and sees as family, be it sibling or romantic partner. Chigara's the only person Kayto's confided his personal emotional troubles to outside of Ava - that's not "sole friendship"; that's "surrogate sister" or "girlfriend", and having the choice to make Chigara be one or the other wouldn't have impacted the overall plot. He would still love and rely on her - it's just a difference in how it's expressed.
And that's kind of a bad comparison since Star Trek's Q IS tantamount to "God" (omnipotence, unlimited power, immortal, ect).
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 10, 2016 21:38:00 GMT -8
Sharr, G-Senjou no Maou, a well acclaimed Visual Novel uses that style. It works out well for it because there is actually one true route with the true heroine of the series. And it goes through the heroines one by one in terms of their importance to the story, with the least important heroine coming first, then the next important one, then the final true heroine whose route is the main canon story. If you decided to romance anyone aside from the true heroine, then the story derails from its true story and focuses more on the chosen heroine and her personal problem. If you choose none of them, then you'll be forced into the true heroine's story and the main story of the game. Kinda goes like this: Chapter 1: common Chapter 2: unimportant heroine --> if you choose her --> go to her story then story end. Otherwise, continue Chapter 3: more plot/development/some main story advancement Chapter 4: a bit more important heroine --> if you choose her --> go to her story then end. Otherwise, continue Chapter 5: even more plot/development/more main story advancement Chapter 6: true heroine/complete main story/end .... .... I don't get it. I literally do not get how what you just said figures into what I just said. If that's supposed to be an example about how a forced romance works... it really, really, really falls flat for three main reasons: - 1). You CAN CHOOSE DIFFERENT ROUTES. The option of choice is still there - you can still choose who you want to be with, and it actually is more immersive for having there be such big differences in the fate of the character. - 2). There is a far longer time to develop the romance between the main character and the love interest - if Sunrider was developed like G-Senjou, there would have been practically another game's worth of plot between Kayto confiding in Chigara at MoA and his loving her mid-way LD. - 3). Sunrider's plot, last I remembered, was closer to Mass Effect - where the main story's path is largely the same regardless of which person you end up with. It doesn't/never did really follow G-Senjou's framework. What I'm suggesting isn't to remove the relationship with Chigara - it's to make it optional whether it's romantic or platonic. "Railroad romance" was the only other complaint the game had aside from the ending, and fixing it would hardly take more effort then what was done for the post-ending stuff - hell it would actually take far less.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 10, 2016 21:04:48 GMT -8
I guess for posterity's sake (and since I've commented about it just about everywhere else), I may as well throw two cents into this well, too. I honestly wouldn't have minded Chigara being the only person we could romance in this specific chapter of Sunrider so long as we had a CHOICE in whether we could romance her or keep it a brother-sister bond. Having each chapter be a chance to romance a specific waifu could have been a selling point - "get Liberation Day for Chigara's route, get (insert title here) for Asaga's route, ect".
You MIGHT get complaints about people not liking having to wait for the game with the route/character they want to come out, but that's arguably better then having everyone be angry/upset/disappointed that they don't even have a choice who they do and don't get to romance, which was LibDay's single biggest complaint. And it's not like LibDay couldn't be altered to have the route be optional - you'd barely even have to change anything. Hell, I'd bet a competent-enough modder could make the alterations himself - which would bring back just about everyone who may have left over it.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 10, 2016 20:58:55 GMT -8
I think the game isn't as much about the romance as people assume. it's surely more like mass effect or MLA than, say, clannad. You DO know that roughly 50% of Mass Effect's selling points WAS multiple romances, right??? Seriously - really, really bad comparison there
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 10, 2016 19:46:29 GMT -8
slap a slight choice where Chigara is more a sister instead of a lover and I think the issues with the story (or what story currently exists) would fade entirely Maybe it's because you played the Steam version and I played the uncensored one (I'm assuming here), but just saying "Chigara was like my sister" doesn't cut it. Kayto had sex with her, man. He undressed her, bent her over, and did all sorts of things to her. It was lewd. You don't do that to your sister. Fortunately, I think the current ending is more than enough to give closure to the "forced Chigara route" mistake. It does essentially give you a choice for Kayto to say that it was a mistake and he was blinded by his own desire for happiness. Also, in case the player DID like romancing Chigara, you can always be a monster and tell Asaga that Chigara was a good girl who dindu nuffin. While she clings to you. Crying. You fiend. Have I mentioned Asaga has a lovely rear end? It's very apparent in that particular CG. But I digress. Anyway, I want to say that I ultimately liked the added content in v 2.00, and while it by no means fixes the core problems with the original game (without which this fiasco could've been avoided), it really does serve as a "love letter" of sorts, showing the fans that the developers actually care what we think and that for all the mistakes they still know what they're doing, story-wise. I'm satisfied, and I can say that this version of Liberation Day has left me looking forward to a part 4, whereas a week ago v 1.0 left me confused and irritated. That's a really positive change for 6 days worth of extra development time. I'd correct you, but something tells me you knew full well what I meant here about it being optional Still, fixing it isn't as hard as many might think.
-Step One: Add in the choice option. -Step Two: Alter the dialouge slightly so that there's no kissing or the like between the two (which only involves changing, what, a dozen or so lines? Maybe even less then that? You wouldn't even need to edit out Chigara asking Kayto to help raise her kids - it would look more like she's asking him to help as a friend, not that he'd be the father). -Step Three: Remove Kayto and Chigara having sex (if you want to go for the comedy points, have it be that they're watching a lewd movie together with Kayto being surprised Chigara has any interest in that kinda stuff, and that the sounds of that were what Asaga heard and she jumped to conclusions - like a classic trope-worthy anime-style misunderstanding. Something that would take six or so lines of dialouge at minimum. Wouldn't even need a new CG - just Chigara's sprite looking embarrassed while Kayto comments). -Step Four: Alter the confrontation between Asaga and Chigara where Chigara just admits she loves him instead of that she slept with him (she'll get too angry with Asaga's accusations to explain she never did sleep with him. This would be maybe four lines at least). -Step Five: Add a single new CG where Kayto hugs Chigara back to her senses instead of kissing her back to her senses (I could only see two line of dialouge being needed here).
It's more satisfying then it was before, but I don't think there's anything wrong with being hopeful. Hell, he could even trumpet that as being a selling point - each chapter lets you lock in or lock out of romancing a specific waifu. You can romance Chigara in chapter one, or abstain and instead start with a different girl in chapter two, or abstain again and be with someone else in chapter three and so-on. Would also take pressure off later games because he wouldn't need to fit five arcs into one installment if prior games took care of two or three route-payoffs beforehand.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 10, 2016 19:35:29 GMT -8
I think elder's point was that it's not actually important because it doesn't FEEL important - there's no real disguising it's an illusion like the old games did. I actually think Claude's "true nature" causes just as many plot-holes as it fixes. It would have been better overall if she were differentiated as not being a literal god - more like an ancient who, be it through genetic or technological means, attained comparable abilities. And telling everyone to think of her like that if she's honestly not might just draw attention to it, TBH.
Most else out of what was introduced helps or works, albeit feeling a tad rushed due to the damage-control mode it was made in, but it still doesn't fix what a lot of people felt was the main issue in the mid-game - "railroad romance." And that's actually not to hard to fix - slap a slight choice where Chigara is more a sister instead of a lover and I think the issues with the story (or what story currently exists) would fade entirely. No new CG's needed - just a couple lines here and there. It's not like Kayto's bond with Chigara would be lessened by the optional distinctions.
I'm confused by your first phrase; both him and me (if it wasn't clear) liked the return of the star-map because it does a better job relating scenes and improving the flow through a bit of classic illusion of choice. I think both him and me argued that it actually was important even if it doesn't feel important, which is kinda the opposite of what you say? Really, a very powerful dimension traveler was implied since Academy. I also think you're taking issue with the word God. Remember that the one who says is Sola, the most religious (even if in a strange way) of the group, and that in her time the Ryuvian Emperor was venerated as a god. She even refers to Alice's awakening as "blasphemous". I think it's pretty obvious she's not referring to a Gof of creation nor anything similar, but actually to the summum of what Ryuvian emperor wanted. An immortal being with the power to control this galaxy; which is more or less "The Doctor"
And yes, you're against the railroad romance. We get it.
I've also would have personally added some parts in the middle too (personally had changed Tydaria into a full-blown main arc and 2 battles), but I understand is kinda a moot point so late in the game. Samu-kun has never done revisions (he is open to criticism and will probably take it into account, but I've never seen him rewrite anything based on feedback; he's of the "always ahead and never look back" writers), and if Lib Day took a year to make, then he probably wants to start thinking on the 4th part sooner than later. He said that while that he likes the return of the map, I don't recall him saying that the "illusion of choice" was really maintained here. If that was wrong, then sorry. But I said the opposite of you because, unlike the prior games, it really doesn't feel like that "illusion" is there like in the past games - absence of dialouge choices and RPG conversation menus when talking to characters and the like make it feel more a gimmick then a functional element. Um, I don't recall Academy ever implying that dimension traveling was the result of divine or near-divine powers. In fact I'm pretty sure we were only ever shown it as being the product of technology, which would have hinted Claude having something more along the lines of a TARDIS, not physical cosmic superpowers. And I'm using the word "God" because the boot honestly fits given what we've just seen her do.
And that's just it - I'm not entirely against the "railroad romance". I'm against it not being optional, which is extremely easy to fix. I have no issue with it being the only romance available this time around - it's that Kayto's bond with Chigara has nothing that makes it work any more or less as a platonic-sibling bond then it does as a romantic-lover bond. A few extra lines of dialouge and maybe one single CG could fix the entirety of the remaining story complaints regarding that. Hell, make it a selling point for each game - romance Chigara in chapter one, abstain from that and you can romance someone else in chapter two, abstain both times and you can romance someone else in chapter three, ect. It would also take pressure off by axing the need to make five separate routes for the final game or whatever if you split the available routes between each chapter. Samu-kun has never had backlash quite like this either. Nor has he ever added in more content like this AT ALL in response to feedback. I think it's a little early to treat "never" as fact right now. Especially since it, again, would be comparatively easy to fix.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 10, 2016 19:15:13 GMT -8
*** This post may contain spoilers. I tried to avoid any but some of the things were impossible to. *** You can't expect beta testers feedback to include story when you clearly state that it's in not-finished state and subject to change. There is no way we could've told you that the game is too short in time for you to fix it (say, Beta 5) because by that time we had no idea of how long the story will be. Because of that, everyone just focus on what can be tested - battles. Now that LD is released I can give you some feedback on story: - It's too short. You write "We make games with waifus in them." and "Love in Space is creating Visual novels". It seems obvious that people will look for story. It also seemed a lot shorter than MoA and FA (when i first played them i didn't even notice that MoA is addition) even tho i played both on the same difficulty.
- Forced romance - i don't personally care, but seeing how much resources were put into developing community around waifus in Sunrider it's hardly surprising people reacted like that. You said "Was also not really concerned about ... getting hitched with Chigara ... everyone on the dev team already know ..." - what dev team knows or does not know is not correct way of measuring things - you don't sell your product to dev team.
- Story itself is not realized good enough for me. I expected to get some answers (i played up to Beta 2 or 3) and i got none - instead we have more questions. I imagine most of people are confused as hell about whole Prototype, Diode, Alice and Alpha thing as I was (and partially, still am). Since i'm supporting you on Patreon i got access to the Veniczar novel which explained quite a bit about that part of story - sadly, while i now understand background more and can enjoy story of LD more, most people don't have access to that novel, and even if, you should never expect them to read it because it should be explained in enough details in game itself. While I don't have any issues with unknown things about most of things in Sunrider story (and there were quite a lot of things in MoA and FA), the excessive use of Prototypes in LD story requires some, even basic explanations to be done. I just couldn't enjoy parts of story because it seemed like i skipped something in between that would shed some light at what is happening. In fact, i feel like the whole part about Alice and Alpha meeting was in no consequence for the bigger part of LD story and only confused me (still does, who the hell is Alpha anyway and what's the deal with Prototypes anyway). As summary i can say that sadly it felt like LD carries near to nothing of story that's relevant to bigger image and important for next game.
As for other things: I have no problems with Japanese VA, i like OP and in fact i don't dislike ending that much - I'd imagine most people wouldn't if it wasn't the end of LD or the the story leading to it would be longer.)
As for battles: optimization - that's the only thing i have problem with, and as i wrote on Steam - i don't know about limitations of Ren'Py or how good your code is since i don't have time to examine it, hence i can't speak as fellow programmer to you about it, but just as normal player. Even with your recommended specs, the game is visibly laggy when trying to calculate and display all that shield coverage during battle with Alice. I don't even want to think what that battle would look like on first generation i3 CPU (technically within your specs since you don't specify any model or generation) - i would imagine it being nearly unplayable.
To take time out of my day to address this...it's better this way anyway because I'm extremely busy and currently missing out on things that I want to address and give feedback for. For Samu:Most of the content on the other forum may have discussed the battles but only to debate most of the code issues with it or what to do when having a hard time with the battles. We avoided talking about story publicly (with the exception of the Sunrider Steam Group) because we didn't want to spoil it with anyone. As well, only a few people were posting about the battles. Gorby, TLA, Leda, Akio, WingsofLibertyTwo...that was it really. Most of the steam messages I got from people about Sunrider were about the story content. People were adding me left and right, asking about beta content (for which I told them nothing), or to discuss plot point or thing that happened that they felt wouldn't fit a character's personality. Battles were fine. They were fun, but probably shouldn't have been the core focus of the game (mistake that Titanfall made, a game some people haven't heard since the fir. A 50/50 balance or even 60/40, 40% for battle system would've been ideal for most people on steam. Longer story is more desired than a more elaborate battle system. I personally love chess and this just adds a BUNCH of fun to the game for me. It's hard to find opponents for a chess game though because most people think it's "too complicated" to play the game/don't want to bother learning a game like that. And if they do play chess, most of the time they don't want to spend extra time playing someone who is slower or faster than they are, and are afraid of how long a game CAN take. Not Important but InformativeThere is a slight issue with the forced romance, and that's because of the # of girls but there are MANY games that rob you of a romance choice option so I don't think it's all that bad. I mean, the end result of this forced relationship was yuri between a tsun mercenary and an overconfident up-tight military nut, a sexy nurse who wants nothing but your [censored] and is an easy side girl, a genki who still looks at the bright side of things, and a peaceful moe moe girl who, even if you don't like moe, fits well with the end of the story. In all, it ended pretty well. It would end badly if the forced relationship was with a total bitch who was bossy as fuck. That's when complaints come in... But yeah, the forced relationship was mainly there to progress the story and keep the plot going. If it wasn't that way, and say, it was Asaga he chose, even if the story went the way it currently does, I HIGHLY doubt anyone can justify knocking someone back to their senses just by talking to them after their brain has been taken over. And you can't replace the person whose brain gets taken over because if you replaced it with Asaga you basically have a huge plot hole. Yes, I'm late to this party and idk if he's going to read it or care but that's just something I probably should've mentioned much sooner to him in the waifu wars.... UPDATE/DISCLAIMER:Please note that my opinions and views on the relationship part of this was objective. I threw in some extra stuff that are perks but it has nothing to do with the fact that I am happy with the turnout. Even if it was changed, even if Ava SOMEHOW won, I still wouldn't be bothered by it. Well, maybe that Ava won, but still, it's not like I'd cry for the "pick a waifu" option. The thing with that bit about the forced romance, though: The crazy part is that there didn't HAVE to be any other romances; just the option to bypass this one. They could have endorsed each chapter of the game being a separate chance to lock-in with a specific waifu; first chapter can lock in Chigara - abstain from that and you get a different girl in the second - abstain both times and you can get a different girl in the third, ect. Making it possible to opt out of a rather hamfisted romance with Chigara didn't mean they had to add new ones into this part of the series.
There is very, VERY little that would need to be changed to make the relationship with Chigara switchable between platonic and romantic - the only major thing I could think of, in hindsight, would be making a new CG where Kayto hugs Chigara back to her senses instead of kissing her, but aside from that it would only take a few extra lines of dialouge here and there and you'd have a working alternate where Chigara is more the sister-figure instead of the lover. But having the CHOICE to romance "this chapter's star waifu" and implementing that system for future installments would be both very easy and take pressure off by axing the need to have like five routes in the final installment or the like. There is literally nothing about Kayto's supportive emotional bond with Chigara that needs them to be lovers in order to work - it functions both ways.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 10, 2016 14:24:44 GMT -8
I personally agree with eider that the ship-map is more for an illusion than for anything substantial, but I think it's actually a fairly important illusion. On the release itself, I'll summarize what I said earlier: - Claude was a little surprising, but it was relatively easy to realize with all the hints (and intuition; her death scene was just too absurd and convenient even for her). Now, while the extents of her powers are a little surprising, I think it will do well for everyone to think of her more as a kind of "The Doctor" than a true deity (their skills and duties also seem to overlap). For the rest, this kind of actually solves some plot holes. I think she however won't be a simple ally, but more of a "friendly trickster deity". - The sudden return of Asaga and Sola felt a little convenient, but it makes sense. I personally would have preferred Asaga saying she had some kind of sudden intuition (given that Claude herself said that she sensed the prototypes brain waves instinctively and later could find the captain, some kind of 6th sense wouldn't seem far-fetched) than simply seeing it on the holo, but, eh, not that big of a stretch . - Was pleasantly surprised by Lynn. It adds an interesting element and forces some changes on Chigara (really, what i disliked most of her was her complete and utter absence of character development despite all the situations she was in). I mean, I always joked that she had the makings of a yandere, but seeing it more or less done brought a chill in my spine (of the good kind). Now, the fact that there was a last escape pod in the deck that did felt too convenient - More Icari and Sola. Sola's conclusion also advanced the plot while bringing some nice developments to her. Both her and Ava's part felt a tad too short for their actual significance, but it was good. - I Like the new PACT character, but I'm afraid she may sideline Fontana a tad too much, what with her basically taking his place as "PACT's competent commander". With the loss of Grey and PACT's modernized Fleet I actually thought that Fontana would be more than enough to take on the Alliance (also, Kuushana told that PACT had always lost, but wouldn't the 2nd Battle of Ongess count as a PACT victory? Even if they couldn't retake it, they basically inflicted 25% casualties on the Combined Fleet with very few damage of their own). Kinda wanted to have some kind of side-story controlling Fontana and fighting against the Alliance's numbers...
I think elder's point was that it's not actually important because it doesn't FEEL important - there's no real disguising it's an illusion like the old games did. I actually think Claude's "true nature" causes just as many plot-holes as it fixes. It would have been better overall if she were differentiated as not being a literal god - more like an ancient who, be it through genetic or technological means, attained comparable abilities. And telling everyone to think of her like that if she's honestly not might just draw attention to it, TBH.
Most else out of what was introduced helps or works, albeit feeling a tad rushed due to the damage-control mode it was made in, but it still doesn't fix what a lot of people felt was the main issue in the mid-game - "railroad romance." And that's actually not to hard to fix - slap a slight choice where Chigara is more a sister instead of a lover and I think the issues with the story (or what story currently exists) would fade entirely. No new CG's needed - just a couple lines here and there. It's not like Kayto's bond with Chigara would be lessened by the optional distinctions.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 10, 2016 10:55:37 GMT -8
And while I give applause to there being more character-interaction choices... it feels kinda late for it. Again, just me speaking, but it feels kinda cheep since we were already forced into a romance - had the relationship with Chigara been something we could choose to make platonic or romantic, it would make it easier narrative-wise. As it is, with that being a forced plot-point, it gives me an uncomfortable "why bother - the romance was already locked in a while ago, so why would choice matter now?" feeling. Shield's relationship with Chigara is an important part to the overall story - the impact of which will be felt for a long time. The flashback to when he was intimate with Ava is essentially not that different in concept as the player didn't choose that either. Yes, that was all 'in the past', but so is LibDay now. Basically, the player will choose who Shields will eventually end up with but the plot decides what happens up to that point.
I understand you expected to be able to choose your waifu this game but that is merely caused by miscommunication. You could have done that WITHOUT making it a ROMANTIC relationship, though. Remove the love-scene, re-work some of the dialouge and the entire thing works just as well as, if not becomes outright indistinguishable from, a brother-sister bond. And that comment about Ava is, quite honestly, the biggest goddamn strawman argument I've ever seen in my life - with Ava, you could excuse that because that was Shields when he was young, stupid, first learning about love, was from a point in his life well before he had a player-determined mindset AND he's had at least several years to put it (mostly) behind him - not the few short months between LD's current end and it's next chapter. So no, it's not "miscommunication" - it's more like plain bad plot-planning, and the fact that it got decried as much as the ending did ought to have proven that! LibDay obviously isn't in the past because you wouldn't have added 40+ minutes of extra content to it just six days post release if that was the case. Hell, you want to highlight this as a positive - why not endorse each chapter of LD being a chance to lock in a romance with a specific waifu? Part one you can commit to Chigara - abstain and you can commit to someone else in part two - abstain both times and you can commit to someone else in part three. Mass Effect did much the same - you had limited romance options among three people, but it let you pick to be single too and expanded in the second installment to let you pick from new ones that you couldn't before. This literally isn't something that's very hard to rectify - you don't even need to undo there being a relationship between Chigara and Kayto or add in other romances into (this part of) LD; just make the current one capable of being determinate as either platonic or romantic - because few things kill being able to choose a future relationship harder then thinking he's already got a commitment he's cheating on. It's all about choice - and doing it like this, it DOES make it feel like the plot decided who you'll end up with, which is why it was rejected; pretty much nobody likes having their choices taken away. Okay - obligatory rant done. Sorry if I sounded belligerent, but this is something of a trigger-topic for me.
|
|