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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 12, 2016 16:32:49 GMT -8
... You know that MuvLuv Alternative, constantly rated as the best translated VN was precisely a series that had spanned already 2 long (30+ hours or more) games with different routes that ended with a final ending in which you couldn't choose the love interest? Here it's not even final.
The illusion of choice, at least in terms of romantic pairings, has never been a worry of kinetic VNs. Mostly because most kinetic VNs rely on making their characters whole, in the sense that "choice" itself doesn't make sense because that character "isn't you". A lot of not kinetic VNs actually present illusion of choice through things very different than romantic partners (like Fate), and then there's Princess Waltz, which like was before stated is basically identical to Liberation Day in that issue.
Again, I'm not even talking about my opinion, but about facts of a genre that's been a clear inspiration to Samu-kun (Muvluv in particular is one of its big influences).
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 12, 2016 15:49:15 GMT -8
Kinetic Novels actually have 0 choices and 0 player agency. No illusion of choice there.
Now, I'm not arguing about Sunrider being like this, because as I said before, the illusion of choice is important. But there are a lot VNs in which the order of romance is enforced, and what you choose is if you continue reading or not. I was not even arguing for my opinion, but rather explaining to you a specific genre amongst VNs that's actually very praised. I don't even know how can I be contradicting myself when telling a fact. And Samu-kun may want to work with that, the problem being we can't even see if it's done well until the game is finished. I never even spoke about my personal opinion
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 12, 2016 13:42:47 GMT -8
Okay, I'll finish this here. I'm not denying your right to give feedback or even insist on the same thing continuously, but if you take a joke poking fun at that as "missing the point", then I've got nothing to do here.
On our argument about Claude, I'll just tell you I disagree. Everything points to the technology on the level of basically a continuous-use wishall and time traveling to be even beyond normal Ryuvian Emperors, and everything related to Awakening seems to be even worse given the mystic connotations it seems to have in Ryuvia, but we don't even agree on the level and weight of Claude's powers, so I'll simply leave it here.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 12, 2016 13:32:38 GMT -8
Really, simply stop. I can see where this started to degenerate and probably have my own opinions about it, but at this point everyone agrees that it simply there's no point continuing. Heck, Vaen's comparison to Mass Effect was a tad problematic from the beginning; Sunrider never had that much of a focus on choices and player identification. A lot of the problems come in fact that Shields is his own person and not simply our avatar. Really, Sunrider is a lot more VN-like than anything else (at least in its storyline). Like Nagashofchaos mentioned, a forced route in the common route was done in Princess Waltz, and while not exactly in the same way, a forced "route order" is extremely frequent in Visual Novels. It's a plot device that has flaws, but also some strong points if done right, the problem being that whether it's "done right" is only seen at the very end. It's no use arguing now with only a half-finished series.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 12, 2016 2:18:36 GMT -8
Why reveal herself now, for one. How is this expected to be balanced in future installments for another, now that it's out, is the second. Third is how what she's done is even remotely possible on the scale she's done it. And again, Academy only ever pointed to there being rather obvious pieces of technology involved when it came to this - not the seemingly physical abilities Claude has displayed. "The Traveler" was hinted to being more like Sola - traveling through time - not a wandering God/deity/whatever the hell definition you seem to think she does or doesn't qualify for. Her having power to that extent comes across as both convenient and abrupt - or at least the way it was exposed.
She doesn't reveal herself. She tries to pass it as having a bullsh*t Lost technology and faking chigara's report because of being clumsy. And yet everyone believes her, because, hey, it's Claude.
And the Traveler was implied to be an another whole level: she knew the Ebon fleet was coming, had the power to travel across dimensions, was implied to be untouchable even for the prototypes and gave them both a piece of Lost technology so powerful even the ancient Ryuvinas feared and the technology to reach Awakening on their own. That's above what even Ryuvian royalty in the time of Sola had. It she had been a simple traveler I would have been the one to call it an ass pull. And, as I said before, she actually has never pulled out something impossible, simply what Ryuvian technology has already shown as possible, so it's actually easy to gauge her powers.
And how it will be balanced? Well, simply because she won't use her powers. As Sola said, Claude is as much an enemy as Alpha; her plan to solve everything would be to return Sola and Crow to their time and probably reset a timeline or two. Right now she's with the captain on the chance everything can be solved without her having to do anything She can't even use her non-dimensional traveling powers too much; as she explained, too much interference from time travel and paradoxes would cause that universe to simply disappear, and she's a time traveler after all.
And on your second paragraph, it's you who's missing the point. If you really want so much to talk about it, make a poll or thread only about it, nobody will stop you.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 11, 2016 6:53:38 GMT -8
("who even says things like 'V card'?!")
I fully admit having laughed at that way too much!! It seemed to fit Asaga in a strange way (also, most eroge heroines are way too pure and virginal and proud of it, so having her worry about that was kinda fun).
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 11, 2016 3:18:09 GMT -8
Not from what we saw so far. If those powers stem from physically-ingrained abilities (implanted or otherwise), it's practically the same as being an artificial Q - she still fits the distinction of "God" more then "Time Lord" so far. All those things you mentioned required rather complex, intricate or even large-scale components to make work - doing it all on her own; that's about as close to the definition of "God" as you can get. The only thing she'd need do to seal it is breathe life into clay bodies. Again, I used that term because those things (omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence) DO seem to fit her at the moment given her actions, and until the magician's tricks are explained as otherwise, Sola's distinction hardly seems undeserved.
... I can't tell if you missed the point I was making or not - I was saying that it shouldn't have been railroaded. You toted the "illusion of choice" being an important reason why the galaxy and ship maps returning was good - I feel the same should be applied regarding Kayto's love for Chigara; giving it a distinction between "romance love" and "sibling love" would have made the railroad love more tolerable because you have some degree of agency. Kayto and Chigara would still have the same deep-rooted bond of love that serves as a plot-point for LD - you'd just choose how it's expressed, Chigara the girlfriend or Chigara the sister. The outcome could be the same both ways, but I doubt there'd be complaints because the player would have felt there was some direction in things - and coupled with the new endings, it would rectify the entirety of the issues people had with the current section of story. Well, I see the distinction as important, but if you think those powers already define "God", then where are the "plot-holes" and problems with it? And what part doesn't fit what we saw in Academia? She's just basically the apex of what Ryuvian Emperor tried to do for millennia. Where's the problem in one of them actually succeeding? She simply decided that she didn't want to be an emperor or venerated or anything like that, and used her powers to just have fun (because that's clearly what Claude is aiming for, besides the whole "saving the universe" things).
And the railroading thing was a joke aimed at you repeating "railroaded romance" like that. Yeah, as I said before, we get it, you have said it I think 6 times now and people have already told you what they thought.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 11, 2016 2:24:45 GMT -8
Um, I don't recall Academy ever implying that dimension traveling was the result of divine or near-divine powers. In fact I'm pretty sure we were only ever shown it as being the product of technology, which would have hinted Claude having something more along the lines of a TARDIS, not physical cosmic superpowers. And I'm using the word "God" because the boot honestly fits given what we've just seen her do.
And that's just it - I'm not entirely against the "railroad romance". I'm against it not being optional, which is extremely easy to fix. I have no issue with it being the only romance available this time around - it's that Kayto's bond with Chigara has nothing that makes it work any more or less as a platonic-sibling bond then it does as a romantic-lover bond. A few extra lines of dialouge and maybe one single CG could fix the entirety of the remaining story complaints regarding that. Hell, make it a selling point for each game - romance Chigara in chapter one, abstain from that and you can romance someone else in chapter two, abstain both times and you can romance someone else in chapter three, ect. It would also take pressure off by axing the need to make five separate routes for the final game or whatever if you split the available routes between each chapter. Well, Clarke's third law, duh. It's pretty obvious Claude's powers come from technology, she seems to at least have been born as a human; all the she gives the prototypes is technology in fact. And, again, it's pretty obvious the Ryuvians basically venerate technology: genetic engineering? A power exclusive to royalty which is "blasphemous" when used by somebody who shouldn't. A gem programmed to recognize a certain bloodline? A royal treasure passed through generations. An overly powerful mighty weapon? A secret relic which requires a royal sacrifice to activate. The administrator rights of that most powerful technology and having that said genetic engineering? The mandate to rule over the Galaxy and be venerated as God.
And really, Claude has never done anything beyond what we know Lost Technology does. Moving through dimensions? The wishall. Time travel? The engine that Crow mentioned. Teleportation? Short range warp. Miniaturization powerful enough and she can do all of that without seeming like she's carrying anything (nanomachines, everyone?) Really, the only odd thing is her immortality, and that's literally her distinguishing feature; she's basically achieved what during all this years the Ryuvian emperor failed to do. That's why Sola referred to her as a god.
I personally don't like the term that much, because it seems related with omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence, which is something she clearly doesn't have. I like more "deity", because it bring to mind polytheistic religions with their gods with more limited powers. But really, she's basically a more powerful "The Doctor" with boobs.
Also, a railroaded romance is not optional. It's there, in "railroaded" (there's a reason "railroaded" is normally a pejorative term).
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 10, 2016 15:20:53 GMT -8
I think elder's point was that it's not actually important because it doesn't FEEL important - there's no real disguising it's an illusion like the old games did. I actually think Claude's "true nature" causes just as many plot-holes as it fixes. It would have been better overall if she were differentiated as not being a literal god - more like an ancient who, be it through genetic or technological means, attained comparable abilities. And telling everyone to think of her like that if she's honestly not might just draw attention to it, TBH.
Most else out of what was introduced helps or works, albeit feeling a tad rushed due to the damage-control mode it was made in, but it still doesn't fix what a lot of people felt was the main issue in the mid-game - "railroad romance." And that's actually not to hard to fix - slap a slight choice where Chigara is more a sister instead of a lover and I think the issues with the story (or what story currently exists) would fade entirely. No new CG's needed - just a couple lines here and there. It's not like Kayto's bond with Chigara would be lessened by the optional distinctions.
I'm confused by your first phrase; both him and me (if it wasn't clear) liked the return of the star-map because it does a better job relating scenes and improving the flow through a bit of classic illusion of choice. I think both him and me argued that it actually was important even if it doesn't feel important, which is kinda the opposite of what you say? Really, a very powerful dimension traveler was implied since Academy. I also think you're taking issue with the word God. Remember that the one who says is Sola, the most religious (even if in a strange way) of the group, and that in her time the Ryuvian Emperor was venerated as a god. She even refers to Alice's awakening as "blasphemous". I think it's pretty obvious she's not referring to a Gof of creation nor anything similar, but actually to the summum of what Ryuvian emperor wanted. An immortal being with the power to control this galaxy; which is more or less "The Doctor"
And yes, you're against the railroad romance. We get it.
I've also would have personally added some parts in the middle too (personally had changed Tydaria into a full-blown main arc and 2 battles), but I understand is kinda a moot point so late in the game. Samu-kun has never done revisions (he is open to criticism and will probably take it into account, but I've never seen him rewrite anything based on feedback; he's of the "always ahead and never look back" writers), and if Lib Day took a year to make, then he probably wants to start thinking on the 4th part sooner than later.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 10, 2016 13:59:17 GMT -8
I personally agree with eider that the ship-map is more for an illusion than for anything substantial, but I think it's actually a fairly important illusion. On the release itself, I'll summarize what I said earlier: - Claude was a little surprising, but it was relatively easy to realize with all the hints (and intuition; her death scene was just too absurd and convenient even for her). Now, while the extents of her powers are a little surprising, I think it will do well for everyone to think of her more as a kind of "The Doctor" than a true deity (their skills and duties also seem to overlap). For the rest, this kind of actually solves some plot holes. I think she however won't be a simple ally, but more of a "friendly trickster deity". - The sudden return of Asaga and Sola felt a little convenient, but it makes sense. I personally would have preferred Asaga saying she had some kind of sudden intuition (given that Claude herself said that she sensed the prototypes brain waves instinctively and later could find the captain, some kind of 6th sense wouldn't seem far-fetched) than simply seeing it on the holo, but, eh, not that big of a stretch . - Was pleasantly surprised by Lynn. It adds an interesting element and forces some changes on Chigara (really, what i disliked most of her was her complete and utter absence of character development despite all the situations she was in). I mean, I always joked that she had the makings of a yandere, but seeing it more or less done brought a chill in my spine (of the good kind). Now, the fact that there was a last escape pod in the deck that did felt too convenient - More Icari and Sola. Sola's conclusion also advanced the plot while bringing some nice developments to her. Both her and Ava's part felt a tad too short for their actual significance, but it was good. - I Like the new PACT character, but I'm afraid she may sideline Fontana a tad too much, what with her basically taking his place as "PACT's competent commander". With the loss of Grey and PACT's modernized Fleet I actually thought that Fontana would be more than enough to take on the Alliance (also, Kuushana told that PACT had always lost, but wouldn't the 2nd Battle of Ongess count as a PACT victory? Even if they couldn't retake it, they basically inflicted 25% casualties on the Combined Fleet with very few damage of their own). Kinda wanted to have some kind of side-story controlling Fontana and fighting against the Alliance's numbers...
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 10, 2016 7:01:38 GMT -8
HistidineI didn't see it as that convenient, though probably because I already expected something like that? It's what comes with pretty much this kind of cliffhangers; I suppose it's the difference between being used to seeing the kind of animes Samu-kun sees and not. On claude, I agree. I personally feel she will take more of an ambivalent approach, being kinda like "if you manage, ok; if you don't I'll just rewrite the world and then we'll party! ". Probably Sola will be the critical point; I may think she may later offer to solve the conundrum in exchange of returning Sola to her timeline. For the rest, pretty much agree, though I feel that Kushana will be trickier than what it seems (Fontana being like "She's totally not anything strange! But sometimes it feels like she can see the future" doesn't help when we've just introduced 2 time-travelers in the series...)
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 10, 2016 5:21:24 GMT -8
Basically, in the new CG Where the Captain has returned with the Sunrider's crew and is being hugged by Asaga, Ava appears with a patch on her eye even if you spared the Legion, though in her sprites she appears normal, without it and her cybernetic arm.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 10, 2016 5:12:55 GMT -8
So, stuff from 2.0. Basically, 95% of my speculation was right: Claude is an Ancient Ryuvian (not specified if she is Sharr Myren, but yes that she's even more ancient than Sola), though it seems she is even most powerful than we thought, to the point of a deity. What is confirmed is that she's basically taking care of the time-continuum while having fun around; she doesn't care for much, and I kinda understand her being that she's more or less implied to be able to replicate the universe in a blink. When you can do that most things just stop being grave and dangerous or terrible. She's also Alpha's helper, though after her failure she has just decided to go on her own and try to have fun with the captain.
Sola is also the "Farari bitch", and the whole thing about the 5.000 years is a typo, has been corrected to 2.000 years now.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 10, 2016 5:06:51 GMT -8
2.0 is pretty great, to the point I don't understand why some stuff wasn't simply put in the previous ending Like, the conversation between Claude and Alpha just screams to be put as an epilogue, probably before the Crow reveal. It explains the end of the game and hints everyone's survival. It alone would have basically avoided the outcry the ending.
Will do with a bit more polish, but well. Oh, and I called like 95% of what happened. Also, for those wanting more waifu, there was an incredible amount of flirting and 4 choices; none of the choices were really relevant, but it felt like our agency has more or less returned in waifu matters.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 10, 2016 2:28:26 GMT -8
I agree we're perhaps getting too long. Sorry, can't help it, I tried to restrain myself a bit in this one.
On your first three paragraphs I'll disagree (not being able to warp inside a gravity well is basically the only thing we know about warp in Sunrider), but I agree that continuing the argument on it is meaningless.
On Grey, I think you're, again, underestimating both his power and the magnitude of the Combined Fleet. First, Grey is the candidate, and by such, the leader (or at least the one moving the strings) of the Universalists, the second most powerful party in the Solar congress. It's not like he's only military, but he controls the opposition in the Congress... to a weak president which has been publically humiliated by his total failure against PACT in every front. In contrast, you have Grey, grandson of the most legendary Alliance hero, leader of the military which has just defeated the Invaders and is freeing the Neutral Rim. It's pretty much made clear that the Admiral has enough power to make a coup if he wanted: total control of the military, exceptional situation, endorsement by around half the civilian population, probably help from the majority of the lobbies, etc (he doesn't do it because he's not stupid). And again, the Alliance had been at peace this last 100 years when suddenly they had an invasion at their doorsteps; one that can be repeated if the Combined Fleet is defeated. A dread of an invasion is simply far larger than any other possibility (just look at the current international situation to see how much we can overreact over terrorism; imagine a full fledged invasion)
Second, I'm not saying that the civilian government is not against Grey (though for that, you'll have to change civilian government for "progressives", as it's pretty clear the Universalists endorse Grey), but I'm saying the civ government would have done the same. Propaganda is important, but it can't compare to 1500 ships, specially when almost anyone outside the Alliance who could benefit from such propaganda is dead: the most powerful Neutral Rim world, Cera, is destroyed, Ongess resistance has already been exterminated, the Union doesn't care, and PACT was already been fed full of propaganda. Ryuvia is the only world, but it's laughed off by everyone. Worlds with potential like Versta are simply too weak now, and they know they need the Alliance (or PACT) to survive. The Galaxy was already polarized before the conflict, so, while horrifying, it's not a game changer. And destroying worlds was actually pretty common in the New Empire and PACT; we know entire worlds were glassed during the Revolution, and PACT itself used the Legion freely, and that didn't stop Cosette from helping them (her and Shields being the closes thing we have to a "neutral party" in the conflict). The Alliance could easily justify themselves with that.
And Grey wanted peace too; the entire reason the paradox core was going to be fired and the Alliance decided on an invasion of PACT space was because they saw that event as PACT betraying them. When the other side is the one breaking the treaty and killing your fleet and leadership by a surprise attack, everything can be justified (and I'm reluctant to bring historical references, because they're always pretty polarizing, but I can do it if needed).
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 10, 2016 0:58:41 GMT -8
Yeah, I also had to ball up everyone and toss All Guard sometimes (specially with the final boss).
It's interesting see how different the same battle can be with different strategies though: I tended to reserve most of my missiles and rockets for later turns, so that made the beginning the part where I sweated the most [more than once I used FF(fire everything)+AG(finish the turn)+FF(on the next turn)], while most of the times I could nuke the reinforcements into oblivion (flak resistance 5 and a rocket makes even the Assault Carrier only have a chance of 30% to intercept) through some clever positioning and use of flak off. For example, in this battle I didn't use the last disruption where I could, simply because I realized that with 3 Flak off, a rocket and the Vanguard cannon I could take out all the Assault Carriers; so I took one turn more, wiped the few remaining enemies and went to look at my shiny 20.000 intel.
Of course, all that was on Captain so it's pretty cheap, but it's interesting to look.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 9, 2016 14:35:45 GMT -8
I feel compelled to point out that the bit about Ongess is kind of a complete mistake - the majority of the Combined Fleet was docked to fuel-stations and scaffolds. He couldn't have jumped out either way because the majority of the fleet was inactive, which was the whole reason they were forced to play defensive against Fontana and Cosette. Same for Versta - the Agamemnon didn't have Chigara and, being a civilian liner, it's warp-drive wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as the Sunrider's. Slingshotting around the moon at Ryuvia was so that they could make a PRECISION jump to a safe system - if they tried a random jump with the issues of a Gravity Well, they could have ended up crashing into a star or shooting into PACT space instead of Alliance, but the point is that it didn't mean they couldn't jump; just that it's risky and not the recommended first choice if you can help it.
So, by all accounts... yes. Yes the Alliance and PACT fleets COULD simply warp out of there that quickly - it would simply be disorganized and uncoordinated, with a high chance of ending up god-knows-where. But then again, even that's arguably better then being caught in the event horizon of a black hole as it devours a planet. Another thing - they only acted that way after Gray was dead. For all we know, they would have approached the planet to recover Gray had he survived. And it probably held position like that so that the rest of the fleet could have it's chance to warp out. Most of the troops on Cera were PACT and Alice/Chigara's actions pretty much wiped out the Alliance forces. Hell, getting as much of the fleet warped out as possible was probably the ONLY reason they didn't immediately fire the missile. PACT taking advantage of that delay to evacuate as many of their own as possible could explain why they didn't just up and flee randomly either - both sides had reasons not to immediately jump out even if they could when you think about it.
But you're again missing his point - namely that if the entire Alliance Military leadership is there, it doesn't make sense to give the trigger to just one man out of all of them. Especially not the one with the proven hothead streak. And I point out that Gray was willing to blow the Combined Fleet away before at Ongess to secure victory - blowing that world up would have had similar effects. This is, for all intents and purposes, Ongess all over again. Gray's proven that he'd rather everyone lose if he/the Alliance can't win, so that is pretty close to McArthur stupidity. The combined Fleet was docked and refueling... during the first barrage. The entire reason Grey could even make the "bluff" is because they precisely had time. After the first barrage Cosette Ryders had to take their sweet time reloading; if warping was so easy as simply spooling the warp and going then it was more than enough time to salvage the rest of the fleet is warping was so simple as *warp*. Or that was what I was going to say until i found a post by Samu-kun specifically denying they can warp. You're right on that. But even forgetting that, at Versta the Agemmeon didn't have the same warp engine as the Sunrider... except that it was a diplomatic ship in a foreign mission and that here we're talking about Alliance Fleet, most of which is specifically mentioned as being composed of old Cruisers who were actually on reserve and unmanned until the war. And at Ryuvia Prime, the Sunrider was surrounded by 300 ships and the Legion itself. Everywhere on the Neutral Rim was safer than there. If they could simply warp out and wait for the cool-down time and simply warp again, it would do it. Heck, Samu-kun even had to go out of his way to tell that a moon gravity well is small enough to jump. So, by all accounts... no, you can't simply warp out in a planet's gravity well. It's not only that it isn't sure, is that it messes with time and space; not only there's a non-negligible danger of outright dying, but there is also one of appearing far ahead of your supply chains, with the travel needing a lot more than it was supposed to take, and starve in space. Or appear isolated on PACT space and be destroyed by a simple frigate because you're a lone shield Cruiser o logistics ship. And then there's the time it takes to spool the warp drive; the Sunrider already had one of the more advanced versions, with the Seraphim data and a super-human chief engineer, and it still took precious seconds and even various minutes depending on the plot. Not only that, the Paradox Core specifically generates a micro-black hole; all the ships would need to warp out just after firing it, once it detonates then it would surely mess with everything. For the Alliance it would take considerable time only coordinating warping out even inside the gravity well, and for PACT (who knows nothing of the warhead) it would be impossible If you don't have enough, I can give a quote by Samu-kun and the link where he said it: "Ships can barely warp out of a planet's gravity well, so warping out in a black hole's gravity well's even worse. Ships have to clear gravity wells to various degrees depending on how expensive their warp drive is before they can jump to warp." We're not talking about shiny Assault Carriers, but thousands of ships of all classes with various ages and all of them mass-produced. Their warp drives are not the most advanced or expensive. For the rest, I don't disagree? it's obvious that if Grey had survived he would have been recovered, the entire reason he gave the order from the beginning is that he was dying. And holding position like that, it's obvious he was waiting for the rest of the fleet to warp out; however, if it was only doing that was there need to do it so far away from Cera. More chance for the rocket to be intercepted that way, or helping evacuation the ground (no, I don't believe the entire alliance forces on cera were the important officers and diplomats attending the ceremony; even if only to avoid giving PACT total control over it, it's pretty clear the Admirad distrusted Fontana). And, sorry, but Grey is the most respected military man in the Alliance and a presidential candidate, either with a considerable advantage over its competitor or barely behind depending on what you did at Ongess. The Solar congress is divided between progressives and Universalists, and Grey controls the Universalists and then the entire military. It's not that the civilian leadership lets him; is that it can't not let him. He is not Trump, no matter what he looks from our point of view. You seem to continue both overestimating a single world and underestimating the Combined Fleet. The Alliance has a hundred of core world even more populated than Cera, and the Combined Fleet are 1500 ships. Do you really think any country of this world, no matter the civilian control or anything, would doubt to nuke a city of 300.000 habitants in order to avoid losing a third of their entire army (and their most well equipped and veteran third) and open their metropolis to an invasion? Specially when no one else will say anything? Is not that the Admiral is doing the same at Ongess, is that the civilian government would do the same. Remember: "After Far Port, a substantial portion of the Alliance population lost interest in the war, as it became a distant fight in the Neutral Rim against a faraway totalitarian state, rather than a war for survival." Ongess would have been actually worse, because it would blow up the Ongessite deposits and make fuel a lot more expensive and hard to get. But Cera? A lone world in the furthest part of the Neutral Rim? Sure, most civilians would thing "how sad" and officially the government would pay reparations and all, but nothing else. People would even forgive Grey because he died in the incident.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 9, 2016 0:14:11 GMT -8
Having actually found the ending good (if you read between lines and take out the "twist"; of course, adding a little a hope would have been better at the epilogue, but I don't think it's as hopeless as everyone thinks), I can agree with both of the posts above. In all cases, criticism should always be welcome. Sometimes, you get too much ahead in your plans and really need a slap in the face to make you cool your head and reconsider things that you thought you know.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 8, 2016 15:09:19 GMT -8
I think it's you who are not paying that much attention. While Emergency Warps have been done sometimes, it was never in a grvity well, lack of precision is seriously harmful. In Samu-kun's words:
"Warping with nearby heavy gravity is not recommended, as the drive out point becomes more and more inaccurate. If your initial jump angle is off by even a fraction, the huge distance that you travel in a straight line during the jump could mean that you drive out hundreds of light years away from where you intended, possibly in enemy territory, or even inside a planet or a star. The time compensation also becomes inaccurate, so the jump could take longer than expected to an outside observer. A week long jump in ship time could have taken one month of regular time, leading to obvious logistical problems when you arrive at your destination behind schedule. FYI, you can only arrive behind schedule because of an inaccurate jump. It's impossible to accidentally arrive before you left.”
If it was that easy Grey's fleet at Ongess could have warped away from the attack easily, they had more than enough time. The same with the Sunrider and Agemmemon escaping from Versta (and at Versta they had their chief engineer, just not the data from the Seraphim) and basically everywhere, including Ryuvia; even after destroying the BBs and having short range warp available they had to still reach the moon. Even spooling the Warp itself can take time sometimes (first battle at Helion). The warp at the beginning was when they had already been fighting for a while in an undetermined location; considering most fights happen far from the planet and the gravity well and that the Sunrider was not far from where the Legion had just warped in, i think their position should be pretty obvious.
The Alliance or PACT fleet can't simply warp out of there in so few time. And that's not counting the personnel they still have on ground. Heck, why would even be the Machiaveli Actual, the flagship of Grey so far away from the planet when its captain is precisely on the planet if not to fire the torpedo and warp out?
And you have to look at the situation from the Alliance point of view. Being betrayed by PACT, their fleet would be taken by surprise and without leadership; the entire Combined Fleet with its 1500 ships would be decimated. This is basically deciding the war, and the main reason why Grey was given the Paradox Core warhead, to avoid the Combined Fleets destruction, either by Alice or Fontana. The loss of a planet may hurt, but losing the war and opening the core planets to an invasion would be hundred of times worse. This is very different from Mc Arthur stupidity, because this maybe on Korea, but instead of 300.000 soldiers and fighting against China you're fighting against the USSR and have 3.000.000 soldiers and the entire Pacific Fleet who've just been trapped and with all their generals slaughtered. Yes, bombing Korea will be bad PR, but that's better than losing the entire Pacific and opening Hawaii, Alaska and even Los Angeles to a Soviet Invasion.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 8, 2016 14:44:33 GMT -8
I noticed some lag in 2 situations. The first was when saving/loading (it felt clunky and slow), and the second was on the enemy turn, but specially on the ending; it almost felt like it needed 1 or 2 seconds to realize its turn had ended. And everyone, really, calm down a bit. Sometimes flops happen: Sunrider Academy was a hit for its price, Lib Day has been a flop. The devs probably already are nervous enough for us to add to the fire. It's clear that there has been a serious problem of communication, specially with the more casual fans that didn't realize what was happening. It's also clear that the best thing we can do is calm down and think for a while, and not say the first thing it comes to our head. Lib Day is a flop, but it can recover a little; it will never be remembered as a great (or maybe even good) game, but if Samu-kun can push v2 and time with a slight sale (perhaps for 15€ and the equivalent in $?) then we can recover a bit. Another sale during Steam's summer sale will push it even more; the game is pretty, once you lower its price beyond the "impulsive buy level" the sales should rise; people who only played Sunrider and forgot about it, but that because of that they're likely to be less affected by all the noise right now. We're around 2k sales, which while not terribly good (specially considering the amount given to backers/patrons/people-who-got-lucky-like-me/etc) is still the normal level on eroges. Now, personally, I think the answer is a lot more simple: more and better writing. The thing about choices is not so much about its effects but about its illusion. 10 lines in a clever place can sometimes be as effective as an entire semi-route; MoA actually did this a lot. The same happens with side-characters; I personally found The talk between Kryska and everyone (but mainly Icari)managed to be more emotional to me than the almost 2-hour drama of Asaga angsting about the love triangle (as much as I loved Asaga during that time).
MoA was again very good with this; the original tea-time with Chigara was actually fairly short, yet it was a mine for their fans. Ava also never really had a moment during MoA (well, the flashback), but build her force through a small line in each scene. She was always there, and always had a reaction for everything. And the setting; I want the old Sunrider that would just sprinkle a bit of lore in every briefing, in every talk. The one that told me about how PACT actually forbids space travel unless with special permission, the one that just finds time to tell you that Teutonia, a random planet you never visit, it's actually a backyard without warp, the one that would find time to mix Alliance politics with Local resistance and infight for resources. I'm sorry, but I don't want a Sunrider that puts me in a table where negotiations between PACT and the Alliance are done, and just skips 90% of it to simply offer a summary of the most important part (specially when this part is the closest thing to adding about the setting we have).
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 8, 2016 4:26:27 GMT -8
Yeah, kinda funny.
On the super-dreadnought, the Sharr'lac was "only" 4km long, so it will probably be around that size.
And on Claude, well, yeah, she kinda lied to everyone. I suppose she also has some kind of plan, or maybe she simply hates being dragged into things, and thus disappears whenever things get too big? When you've probably traveled through time more than once, and may actually be hundreds of years old, things probably take a different perspective.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 8, 2016 4:17:46 GMT -8
I think that's kinda the point. Bright is pretty much a fan-favourite, and Amuro gets more likeable the more he grows. The "sanest" newtypes in the UC timeline are Judau (who in my opinion is simply too dumb to get the typical newtype side-effects) and Uso (which is very surprising, considering he is the youngest and the one that officially suffers the most). The cyber-newtypes are officially insane, and the normal ones depends a little more on their power. Oh, and the dude of F-91, but that was kinda more due to the film being short.
Gato was a tad too memetic for my tastes, I kinda preferred Haman and Scirocco more, but it's true he was good.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 8, 2016 2:57:19 GMT -8
Well, I want to share my own speculations about what is revealed after the credits of Lib Day, and thought it was better to make my own thread for it. Due to the nature of the thread, I will put all spoilers unmarked to ease discussion. If you want to avoid them, read no further.
As you may know, the snippet after the credits showed Crow Harbour, Sola's uncle and claimant to the throne of Ryuvia, appear at the lead of the mighty Ebon fleet, an event foreshadowed by the Protoypes and their mysterious time-traveler. Now, what is the relation between them?
First, we also heard a new word some times during Lib Day: Farari. From context and Crow's words, we can assume Falari was the name of one of the dynasties claiming the Ryuvian throne during various times of its history. Now, however, who are they referring to here?:
At the beginning, it may appear that it's probably referring to that mysterious time-traveler pseudo-helping the prototypes. There are however some problems with it. First, this traveler is "caught in the temporal blast"; this distinction is crucial, because from everything it seems like the time-traveler with the prototypes has both full knowledge of the situation and the ability to actively time-travel; it does not seem like someone caught in a temporal travel, lost when realizing she is suddenly in the future and finding strange things everywhere. Second, the Myr'lan'dur (or Nightmare Ascendant). The personal machine of Sharr Myren, and likely a machine given to the prototypes by the time-traveler. However, this machine not only disappeared 400 years before Sola's (and so, Crow's) time, but it's actually stated as having fought against the Farari. Thus, it seems like it should have no relation with Crow, or that if it had, Sola would have recognized it, having been precisely Crow's main opponent. And third, Alice' awakening; the prototypes seems to have been handled that kind of technology from somebody, probably their time-traveler, who should be even more ancient and knowledgeable than Sola. After all, only doctors and the like would be experts in this kind of genetic engineering, right?
So, from this you can see my main points. The "Farari bitch" would be Sola, and thus explain why she had actually spend only 3 months asleep; she simply had time-traveled without realizing it. And our fun time traveler, as her voice and pattern speech already foreshadowed, would be no one more than Claude, with her real name being Sharr Myren, a princess of the Holy Ryuvian Empire(though likely not the heir, given the whole civil war thing and the fact the Talbur didn't shine in her presence). A doctor, she would probably gained some time travel engine during the civil war and probably decided to just tail out of there (fitting fairly well with the Claude we know). Her knowledge would then be easily explained, just like the fact that her effectivity seems to actually be tremendously high (healing Ava, being able to detect Chigara as a prototype, etc) for someone accused of malpractice, having graduated with an holonet course and without barely experience. Besides the fact of somehow having a Ryder with strange and advanced technology (seen someone else with AIM Dwn or ATK UP? Even the Gravity Gun can only be used by Km long battleships) and piloting it expertly. Fairly carefree, she probably helped (or even collaborated in their creation) the prototypes knowing the current galaxy had no chance against a Holy Ryuvian fleet. I don't know how much of what she was on the Sunrider was actually genuine or not, but it's very probably that her hobbies and infatuation for the captain were party true, just not enough for her to be entirely truthful. her relation with the prototypes seems to be fairly equal, so I doubt she really was the spy but probably helped Chigara not get caught (either because he genuinely wants to help the prototypes, or because she found the idea of an engineered life-form finding about love extremely interesting) Her last speech may be genuine, wanting to help her descendant from a dark side she knows pretty well. Her death was probably staged (she probably has some kind of teleporting device) and she is likely just having fun around the galaxy, hoping Crow doesn't win and makes it a boring place.
In a final note, Crow's officer states they have made a jump of 5000 years, while Sola comes from "only" 2000 years in the past. Time-travel shenanigans or a retcon? Could be both.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 8, 2016 1:34:57 GMT -8
Have to support a little what Drath says. Having his fingers on all the pies yet never doing one fully is precisely what the director is supposed to do. Wooly may be too busy as of now, but i think at least an editor to help you polish the script and add extra thing would be paramount (you always need an editor. Always. Even when you hate him). And yes on the part where the prototypes feel very lacking, both as antagonists (they're like the most incompetents super-humans I've seen in a while, or at least Alice and normal prototypes are) and for their lack of explanation. They feel like a plot device. And Drath While I agree with you a hundredfold, I still think the ending actually leaves a lot of credible open venues to escape. They're in the middle of launching a world ending nuke against Cera with 2 factions that have just now realized they're in war again, and we have a hundred of wild cards in the move. Claude could jump to save them. The PACT ship could simply miss like in does in gameplay, or be destroyed by an Alliance ship seconds before, and the vessel just escape in the chaos. The pod could actually only be a decoy (Ava is more than smart enough to do such a typical tactic as this). The Union may want to save them for some kind of dark reason. Unknown pilot-kun may simply be the pilot of the escape pod and just that good to dodge the lasers. Asaga and Sola may actually come back when they realized something happened (or maybe even their own awakening has a kind of sixth sense), and in their awakened forms making a small hole from which everyone could escape would also be easy. Etc, etc.
Heck, knowing what Ava survived the Captain may even survive that ramming with a partial cybernetic body; the bridge is in the armored core of the Sunrider, and when you ram a 720 meters long warship into a kilometer one, they aren't going to explode like in the movies.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 7, 2016 15:55:07 GMT -8
Yeah, MIRV torps are pretty broken. I used them in mission 4, but until Cera I didn't use them more. Felt like bullying PACT, lol.
Now, at Cera there was more than one time where I shuddered and had to use them.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 7, 2016 15:48:31 GMT -8
Oh... so the halfhearted comment I gave in a beta I thought nobody cared about was actually read carefully by everyone... and actually, now that I look, from that beta onward the Asaga's Sharr personality that I was mainly criticizing started showing up less... Welp. It seems I messed up. Sorry. I really felt I was kinda not there when everyone kinda could have used my help the most (both Drath and devs). Knowing you were looking at it however makes me very happy though, Samu-kun. I'll try to put a lot of thought in my Writing analysis thread as thanks! I'll be as blunt as always though
Though, if you let me say something, instead of moving more towards JRPG to me it always felt more towards a move to a more pure VN. Heck, I think I even said that a pair of times in the old forums and here. I mean; erasing both Sunrider and Space maps, adding Japanese voice, taking out battle animations to put them in VN scenes, putting a lesser number of choices, etc. It wasn't until the final release that I kinda realized, "huh, it's a JRPG actually!" And, I'm sorry, Drath and everyone who really thought everyone was going to die, but really, the writing is kinda on the wall (heck, i even spotted a bit of foreshadowing here and there!); it's Ava's fate on MoA again, just in a bigger scale. It's actually also something really Code Geasish, now that I think about it; personally don't like it that much (feel that ending a season in a cliffhanger just cheapens the beginning of the next part when it inevitably ends not reaching the expectations). I kinda understand some people not getting it though, it's something really "mech anime-ish".
And damm you vaen! I actually was going to put my theory in days and I wanted to take everyone by surprise with my deduction!
I think you may have missed some small details though, but don't worry, I'll take care of them.
And on battles, I think the key point is that super-massive battles are not always needed, but interesting ones. For example , battle 4 and 10 were actually fairly short (and I suppose take shorter to test), but both were very interesting. I felt them a lot more than battle 3 and 6 that just dragged to me. Of course, massive battles are always nice, but I think part of the repetition I felt in Lib Day was due to them. They were very good, but when you have 6-7 of them is just inevitable they end being similar to each other. It's just natural; a massive battle is just bigger, so you'll also get tired of it a lot easier. For later installments I suggest working on a core of smallish missions (they're also easier to balance too) with some very big battles at the climax
Looking at how you went about it, now I realize a lot of your decisions which previously I didn't understand. Thanks a lot. Personally, I quite liked the ending (with some exceptions of course), and think people were just mad at the game having a very short script for its price and the lack of choice. I suppose every trailer until now suggesting it was going to be the final battle didn't help.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 7, 2016 15:12:46 GMT -8
I think trying to board a Battleship twice your size and with a crew likely 3 times your size with your exhausted and wounded crew is more of a suicide than the mission itself....
And I completely disagree on the first point. The reason why the Admiral hesitated at Ongess was because he was running for the election, not because he could be prosecuted or doubted afterwards. And the Paradox Core was clearly there and armed, meaning there were provision on how it was to be used. Nobody will "contact the politicians" to ask for permission to use a superbomb they have already there with the idea of using it in a series of cases. That would be like saying that the B-29 had to wait for presidential permission before bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki; the presidential and civilian permission has already been given, that's the reason why it's there in the first place. Given what Kryska says, it was to be used in the worst case losing Cera in order to eliminate PACT's threat... which is exactly what happens at the end. The Alliance fleet high command is completely slaughtered, and if Fontana would to follow with an attack on their Combined fleet, it would be completely wiped out, taken by surprise and without Leadership, leaving both victory in PACT hands and the Alliance open to them.
And on your third point, I think Kayto's entire speech is precisely about Cera, not about destroying the Paradox core. While it's not like he wants the Paradox Core warheads used, in this case what he wants is to protect Cera... and thus seek redemption for the time he lost Maray. While the idea of the Liberation Day as "being freed of Cera" is in a way nice, I think it missed the point that half of the captain's motivation always was the loss of Maray. His last words are actually not for Chigara, but for his sister, this shows simply how much important she was to him. And thus, destroying that warhead is not destroying the Paradox core, but actually saving Cera, a way of trying to convey to his sister that this time he won't fail her.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 7, 2016 14:52:32 GMT -8
Certainly PACT should be trying to do that, with our good friend Franz Fontana swearing up and down "it wasn't us who killed the Admiral, honest!" But if the Alliance is already assuming a PACT betrayal, and with the confusion caused by Grey and the entire Alliance senior delegation being dead, I really can't see the surviving Alliance command going along with any plan by "those filthy, I-knew-they-couldn't-be-trusted reds who just killed our leaders and are now trying to cover it up" come up with, it's obviously another trick of theirs! Don't believe a single word they say about anything, they probably just want to get close so they can take [us] by surprise again and destroy what's left of [our] leadership! that PACT destroyer in the last level should totally "accidentally" torpedo the carrier + 2 battleship group, if it's still alive And if the two already-mutually-suspicious parties have already started shooting (e.g. the Alliance engaging every PACT ship in range on account of, y'know, the reds supposedly betraying them and killing their leaders), it's going to take a miracle for anyone to get them to stop without some really dramatic event. ... I actually would love that suggestion about the Destroyer.
Ejem. To be honest, I thought as probable that most details of the situation hadn't even filtered to most Alliance ships. The 2nd in command maybe just knew that the Admiral was dead and he had to fire the super-nuke at the traitors in the planet. Maybe he suspected PACT, but then the 3rd in command said the typical "Where's the admiral" and the XO started arguing with all the vice-admirals, rear admirals, etc that didn't know what the heck was happening and why they had to fire a supernuke at a planet they've just recovered. All in all, in the middle of the chaos there was probably the same chance of them firing one side than another. And at the end of Lib Day the Sunrider is a very formidable ship, above even Assault Carriers. So eh, not much of a stretch in my case. Of course, what you say is actually more likely, which is why I'll be fine with PACT backstabbing the Alliance in gameplay, but in the end it's not something that worries me too much.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 6, 2016 22:55:53 GMT -8
Now, I still loved the English originals, but I can't really fathom putting Japanese voice-overs as a bad point. To me they worked, and even better than the original English, specially for Chigara and Icari, which were extracted directly from Japanese archetypes. I doubted about Ava's, but she performed spectacularly, and even Asaga improved a hundred-fold by the end. I can only slightly protest about Sola, but even in the end I don't see any western quirks or anything in Sola. I simply can't see that as the problem.
To be honest, the main problem of being Japanese voiced seems to be that obsession to being fully voiced; hundreds or games are partially voiced, and here trying to go for fully voiced only ate most of the budget and limited the size of the game. Considering MoA had 0 voice acting in the dialogue, I think people wouldn't have minded having a partially voiced game instead of fully-voiced.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 6, 2016 15:02:20 GMT -8
Uhm, I kinda want to save my words for a proper analysis later (it will be big) of the overall Liberation day writing, but for now, i want to say I actually quite liked the ending Kayto surviving is probably literal plot armour though. I also agree on the whole thing being set up as "PACT betrayal". One thing we have to take into account is that until helion PACT = Prototypes. It wouldn't be a stretch for Grey to assume that Fontana's faction was in the end controlled by prototypes too, and it was just an internal conflict between prototypes. And I also think Fontana did the natural thing shooting Chigara: first, he couldn't know if she really was just acting to backstab the captain (after all, in his eyes Shields could snap her neck in seconds, so tricking him would be the way to survive), second he couldn't know if that "assuming direct control" thing would happen again, and third he had basically his future burn to the ground in seconds by a prototype and a stupid captain.
Agreed on Shields overreacting though; Chigara's whole death felt pointlessly overdramatic. Now, the rest was good stuff (I liked Kryska and Icari's scene a lot, and the captain's final charge too; I could finally recognize the Kayto that seemed so strange to me since the beginning of Lib Day). They probably escaped from the killer bots and PACT troop using the chaos, though it feels a little strange Fontana let them go like that; now, them engaging the Sunrider is probably understandable given that Kayto just swore to destroy their leader and all of his accomplishments 10 minutes before. I actually think PACT vessels were probably trying to not engage Alliance and maybe acting with them: the last thing Fontana wants is a war, and the Sunrider would make perfect scapegoats. He probably was trying to do some damage control and hope that it doesn't end on a full out war. Maybe the Alliance even agreed to hunt for the Sunrider together, given that they knew they would just use the Paradox warhead at the last moment and just obliterate most PACT forces and Fontana. In all cases, I think the enormous chaos in that situation probably justifies some of the strange things that happened, though a bit more of explanation would be nice.
Also, agree that the battle was very nice: the kind of change I wanted. It was also good in the sense that you had to go forward to fulfill the mission the fastest possible which brought you precisely close to the Alliance dangerous kinetics. Without Cosette I struggled a fair amount, but luckily I managed to slip one MIRV at the Alliance carrier (Vaen, please forget everything bad I ever said about flak resistance) and that made the last part a lot smoother; I could even farm some reinforcements.
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